Number swaps etc

servicecharge

Having posted in a naughty fashion yesterday I explored the forum a bit more.

Coming from posting mainly on legal board I am blown away by the censorship and pedantry on this forum.

I don't agree with the board enforcing another party's rules but I'll respect them. So sorry.

But stopping people even talking about the merits of swapping is unreal.

Events that have absolutely no system for swapping or late entry are unfair. Plenty of runners pay good money to register only to get injured late in the day. And plenty of people are willing to pay for the privilege of running in their place.

So what you have for the Dublin City Marathon is a Ryanair type attitude to injured/stupid late people like me. While at the same time relying on the good will and patience of the people of the city.

So I will be sticking to the legal forum because it turns out the lawyers of boards.ie are a far nicer, helpful bunch than the runners.

Who'd a tunk it.

hunnymonster

servicecharge wrote: »

I don't agree with the board enforcing another party's rules but I'll respect them. So sorry.

They are our rules, no one else's.

servicecharge wrote: »

But stopping people even talking about the merits of swapping is unreal.

The poster had a thread closed for breach of charter and immediately opened another to discuss it, hence the second thread was closed.

servicecharge wrote: »

Events that have absolutely no system for swapping or late entry are unfair. Plenty of runners pay good money to register only to get injured late in the day. And plenty of people are willing to pay for the privilege of running in their place.

3 weeks before DCM, entries were still being taken, this is pretty late in marathon terms and given how long entries are open, very reasonable. Have you ever organised a marathon for 10000 people on a voluntary basis? Do you know how much work is involved? An interesting take is
http://www.wilmslowhalf.org.uk/upset.htm

servicecharge wrote: »

... Dublin City Marathon...

why are you singling out DCM? We apply the same rule to all events.

robinph

We just need to follow the rules of the races themselves on here or it won't do us any favours in the real world. The "real world"(tm) has a very large crossover with the goings on on this forum which may not be the same on the likes of the legal forum where the anonymity is possibly more important.

tunney

Plus the posters here organise alot of the races and don't want the hassle of 20 people turning up at registration pretending to be other people and having to refuse them when they cannot produce photo id to support their identity. certainly at triathlons photo id is required to register. Registering as someone else invalids the insurance cover and leaves the organisers (often us) exposed.

tunney

And before you ask "Well just allow swaps until the race starts".
Number swapping takes time and effort. Depending on the event alot of time (rebalancing wave starts can be a b!tch), in the time immediately before an event its generally preferable that the race organiser *organise* the event rather than faff about with late entries and swaps.

mloc123

/me cannot wait for DCM to be over...

If I see another "I have been training all year and missed the deadline by 37 minutes, its sooooo unfair" thread :eek:

MrCreosote

Personally I kinda like it.

Just get to sit back and say- "oh look there's another one", and then time it to see how long until it's locked.
Fastest so far is 4 minutes I think!

I've got to get out more.

RacoonQueen

I registered for the marathon 2 days after entry opened about 11 months ago. I just thought everyone might like to know.

hunnymonster

MrCreosote wrote: »

Fastest so far is 4 minutes I think!

OOOh, an event I might get to beat amadeus in :-)

baza1976

I not doing dublin marathon this year and wasn't planning on it.

I'm just wondering (again) if you emailed or contacted the race organisers (of any race) esp if it is chippped race that you are injured and not running why can't they refund you your money? or at the very least give you an option to run next year?

muletide

baza1976 wrote: »

I not doing dublin marathon this year and wasn't planning on it.

I'm just wondering (again) if you emailed or contacted the race organisers (of any race) esp if it is chippped race that you are injured and not running why can't they refund you your money? or at the very least give you an option to run next year?

Agree completly.

It just seems ridiculous that someone injured cant get a refund or at least give someone else the benefit of running in their place

baza1976

The refund i can't understand but I kinda get why they won't do number swap.

But come on, if it's easy to take the money it can't be much harder to give it back or option to run the following year.

RacoonQueen

baza1976 wrote: »

I not doing dublin marathon this year and wasn't planning on it.

I'm just wondering (again) if you emailed or contacted the race organisers (of any race) esp if it is chippped race that you are injured and not running why can't they refund you your money? or at the very least give you an option to run next year?

No most events won't give you your money back.

baza1976

RacoonQueen wrote: »

No most events won't give you your money back.

Thats my point, and why not or like i keep saying offer yuo a place for the following year???? if i buy a pair of runners in the shop and they don't work out i get my money back or another pair!!! same with everything really

robinph

baza1976 wrote: »

Thats my point, and why not or like i keep saying offer yuo a place for the following year???? if i buy a pair of runners in the shop and they don't work out i get my money back or another pair!!! same with everything really

I got a guaranteed entry for London in '96 after cancelling my entry for '95. I don't think I got any money back though.

RacoonQueen

baza1976 wrote: »

Thats my point, and why not or like i keep saying offer yuo a place for the following year???? if i buy a pair of runners in the shop and they don't work out i get my money back or another pair!!! same with everything really

Aye, I dropped out of Edinburgh through injury and was given 'guaranteed' entry for 2010 but I have to pay again...and Edinburgh is guaranteed entry anyway. :rolleyes: Same with NY only difference being NY is a ballot.

asimonov

Florence marathon which is smaller than dublin (7,000 runners) will allow you to defer entry until the following year for €5 and transfer your entry to another runner for €10 upto 9 days before the race.

servicecharge

I can understand a hard rule with smaller races where organisation is difficult.

But large events like DCM use automated systems and transferring numbers shouldn't be a nightmare.

Of course the organisers will not be under any pressure to change as long as forums like this moderate people trying to swap or even debate the merits of swapping.

I would like to be able to run the marathon that passes my door, yes I was late but there are better ways to punish people. Like slapping a large premium on late entries.

Rusty Cogs 08

If they were willing to give you your money back then you could easily just enter marathons you were not that committed to and if you didn't fancy it, just tell them you're injured and you want your money back. Would make organisation a lot more difficult and places might go a begging to those who may have been refused on maximum capacity grounds. Either way, it's a headache the organisers most likely feel they don't need and it's up to you when you register to 'play by the rules'.

gerard65

servicecharge wrote: »

I would like to be able to run the marathon that passes my door, yes I was late but there are better ways to punish people. Like slapping a large premium on late entries.

Nothing's stopping you, just enter on time, like 15000 others.

servicecharge

Yeh, thanks gerard, that was insightful.

Like I said, real friendly bunch around these parts.

--amadeus--

servicecharge wrote: »

I can understand a hard rule with smaller races where organisation is difficult.

But large events like DCM use automated systems and transferring numbers shouldn't be a nightmare.

Of course the organisers will not be under any pressure to change as long as forums like this moderate people trying to swap or even debate the merits of swapping.

I would like to be able to run the marathon that passes my door, yes I was late but there are better ways to punish people. Like slapping a large premium on late entries.

They do put a sliding scale on entries. Not their fault if people are too dim / disorganised not to enter in the 11 months that entry is open. I mean surely to god at some point in the 18 week training program, perhaps during one of those 2.5 - 3 hour training runs it might pop into your head "do you know what, it might just be an idea to actually enter this race - I'd hate to be left with very public egg on my face by missing a deadline posted 11 months in advance with 7 day a week 24 hour a day entry facilities! I mean how foolish would I look if I missed the 8,000 hour wide window of opportunity!"

Now as someone who frequents the legal board I am going to make a leap that you are involved in teh legal profession. I have had the professional pleasure of dealing with a great many legal types and so I am well able to understand your frustration. In my experience solicitors assume that deadlines apply to everyone except them. However in this case there are no exceptions and everyone plays by the same rules. Tragically for those incapable of opening a webpage while holding a credit card at any point in almost a full calendar year it is thier ball and they reserve the right to decide who gets to play.

And since you bring up the evil jackboot of repression that is this forum... As someone who has (presumably) a passing knowledge of legal matters I will give you some of the background.

Boards.ie is rather a large website. Indeed it has one million page views per day. It has more readers then the irishtimes.com and independent.ie websites. The ART forum is (by any measure I can find) the biggest, most popular and most trafficked running related website in teh country. We have any number of race directors as members here, including at least one member of teh DCM organising committee. We even put together the official pace groups. This forum and the DCM are very closely linked.

And yet you - with less than half a dozen posts on this forum - feel that a couple of years of hard work building this forum as a reputable real world resource with credibility among race directors should be flushed away so that a few people can cheat the race rules. Well how utterly foolish of me! You are right! Boards Ltd (the company that owns Boards.ie and on which 4 people depend to pay thier mortgage each month) can afford teh legal bills if we get sued!

And while I have my best Nazi uniform on here is your one and only Moderator warning. Site wide rules ban arguing with Moderator decisions - argue about race swaps all you want but criticise Moderator policy here again and I'll ban you. If you have an issue take it to HelpDesk.

--amadeus--

hunnymonster wrote: »

OOOh, an event I might get to beat amadeus in :-)

Only if you are wearing that Leather & Lycra outfit Baby!

RoyMcC

servicecharge wrote: »

But stopping people even talking about the merits of swapping is unreal.

Events that have absolutely no system for swapping or late entry are unfair. Plenty of runners pay good money to register only to get injured late in the day. And plenty of people are willing to pay for the privilege of running in their place.

Personally I think you have raised a fair point OP. This forum is, I assure you, friendlier than most I have come across. I just think that this subject comes up too regularly and has been answered too often in the past that people are a bid fed up of it.

Regarding your first paragraph I hardly think that there is a ban 'on the merits of swapping.' Forum rules only state that

If you want to look for (or sell) race numbers because you forgot to enter on time then check that the race allows transfers (most don't). Forward the link or email which states transfers are allowed to the mods before posting your request. We'll close any threads that don't do this.

If you were a race organiser (as a number of people on here are) you'd appreciate the difficulties of dealing with transfers and swaps. First, you will appreciate (as you would appear to have a legal mindset) the danger of unauthorised swaps which throw race organisers a curve ball as regards organisation, results and particularly health and safety. A good term used recently here is 'acting the maggot' and it cannot be condoned.

The question of individual races allowing transfers is one for them to answer, not this forum whose mods are only backing up race rules. I happen to agree that some race organisers might think about allowing transfers (some do) but that is a matter for them. If Tom wants to run in place of Sally then the whole cancelling and re-entering process does create a further headache for a hard-pressed race director. Not to say it can't be done, but that is up to the race itself.

Have you organised races yourself and been faced with this issue?

Wilbury

I can understand your frustration, servicecharge, but a marathon is not something you decide to do on a whim. It takes months of preparation.
The organisers have a mammoth task on their hands and it also takes months of preparation, and it doesn't matter what closing date they decide, people will miss it and feel aggreived. If it was a week later 'servicecharge ll' would miss it and would grumble.
These people are mainly volunteers and put in a massive effort to make sure that the 10,000 plus entrants (who paid up on time) enjoy the event. They are very good at what they do. They know what it takes. The last thing they need at this stage is grief.
Every event has a closing date. If we want to participate, the onus is on us to check it out and we have only ourselves to blame if we miss it.
Bank the experience, I am sure you will appreciate it all the more next year when you make that start line.;)

village runner

servicecharge wrote: »

Yeh, thanks gerard, that was insightful.

Like I said, real friendly bunch around these parts.

If you want to be part of the day maybe they might give you a job of a steward for the day ???;)

plodder

servicecharge wrote: »

I can understand a hard rule with smaller races where organisation is difficult.

But large events like DCM use automated systems and transferring numbers shouldn't be a nightmare.

Of course the organisers will not be under any pressure to change as long as forums like this moderate people trying to swap or even debate the merits of swapping.

I would like to be able to run the marathon that passes my door, yes I was late but there are better ways to punish people. Like slapping a large premium on late entries.

This question has been debated many times before on this forum. So, you're not quite right in saying that you're being censored etc. If you started a thread that didn't include an actual request to swap, it probably wouldn't have been closed.

I can understand why some events don't want to allow transfers, though I think other events could allow it (at a cost). At the end of the day though, there will always be some cutoff point, after which it can't be done.

jinka

yep
the boards are over moderated and virtually nazi like!

Blueskye

I don't understand why it has taken you so long to register. As said before, if running the marathon surely you start training quite some time before it actually happens and surely then it makes sense to also register. A deadline is a deadline. Run it next year.

chinguetti

I'm always amazed how people can pick an event, train for it for weeks and only the day after the event closes do they wish to sign up for the event. And of course, its someone else fault to boot and they then want to share their grief with others!:mad:

If the race was still open until 8am on the morning of the race, all these people looking for swaps would still not sign up until 8.05am. I didn't sign up to Dublin cause i didn't want to. If i wanted to i would have.

My mother has a saying about people coming into mass late 'If they had it at midnight, the same people would still come in late.' Applies in this instance too i think.

guerito

servicecharge wrote: »

Yeh, thanks gerard, that was insightful.

Like I said, real friendly bunch around these parts.

Having a thread locked by a mod for breach of the charter is not unfriendliness. I've never found people on here to be anything other than friendly and supportive.

And as you are a member of the legal forum - how many threads get locked there for seeking legal advice? A breach of the charter is a breach of the charter. The consequences are well-advertised, on all Boards forums.

servicecharge

I realise I made a cock up both in missing the deadline and posting for a swap.

I have been clear and open about that since the start.

I searched through the other threads as the swapping issue took my interest. In this thread I have simply questioned the practice of not allowing swapping or discussing it.

Everyone has come on to tell me I'm an idiot, this I already know.

Some decent people have pointed out the flaws in my argument in a fair and genuine way. Most, including moderators, have just shovelled out abuse.

So pay your money on time, do what you're told and shut it. I get it.

average_runner

Service Charge i think your been unreasonable here.

If you had any real desire to do the marathon you wouldnt miss the deadline.

I mean if you miss the deadline time for checking in at airlines you dont get a second chance unless you pay another fee.

So basically its like a flight, you missed it, your fault, book the next one!!!

So you missed Dublin, book for next years one in december!!

As for number swapping, its a real bad idea and headache for insurances and for when emergency happens on the course at they are trying to contact next of kin.


Why not look at another marathon in Europe?

eliwallach

To borrow a phrase from the legal profession:

servicecharge wrote: »

I'm an idiot, this I already know.

Case closed :rolleyes:.

tunney

baza1976 wrote: »

Thats my point, and why not or like i keep saying offer yuo a place for the following year???? if i buy a pair of runners in the shop and they don't work out i get my money back or another pair!!! same with everything really

But if you buy a concert ticket and cannot go because of illness would you expect your money back?

plodder

You wouldn't expect your money back but you could give/sell your ticket to someone else.

I have some sympathy for people in this situation. Every time I ran the DCM, I entered quite late (twice on the closing day) specifically because I was afraid I'd get injured late in the training program and didn't want to risk losing my money. And sure enough, I did get injured this year. I don't get the medical argument, since it's not as if they check you out medically before you enter. And if the name is changed beforehand, then they'd have the right name on file.

I guess it's an administrative hassle that they don't need. Though, I imagine that Active Europe would be only too happy to take care of it, if they could charge an extra tenner for name-changes. :rolleyes: Though thinking about it, it might actually be worth the extra cost of registering thru them, if you knew you could do a name-change up to (say) a week before the race.

shels4ever

plodder wrote: »

You wouldn't expect your money back but you could give/sell your ticket to someone else.

Depends on the event, Some tickets to sports events have names on , and cant be swapped either . All comes down to race rules , if its against the race rules then you can be DQ . We can't pick and choose what rules we want to folow for races.

plodder

shels4ever wrote: »

Depends on the event, Some tickets to sports events have names on , and cant be swapped either . All comes down to race rules , if its against the race rules then you can be DQ . We can't pick and choose what rules we want to folow for races.

Sure. I'm not saying people should break the rules. Just talking about the DCM rule (not the boards rule)

hunnymonster

similarly, if i made a balls of a roll of photographic film and left it in to be developed, I would still expect to pay. The developers would have provided the service, had to expenses of development & printing. It's hardly their fault that I took 36 pictures of my shoes...

robinph

shels4ever wrote: »

Depends on the event, Some tickets to sports events have names on , and cant be swapped either . All comes down to race rules , if its against the race rules then you can be DQ . We can't pick and choose what rules we want to folow for races.

...and some festival tickets have your photo printed on them as well as name and address, no chance of swapping them.

plodder

That's true HM. But I'm only talking about name changes, not refunds.

Another reason that's given for not allowing name changes, is that it might create a black market in race entries. But that can't really be the case for open entry events like Dublin.

[edit]By the way, Im not questioning the boards.ie rule. I think it makes sense.

servicecharge

Ok I'm not try to stir anything here, genuine question.

How can an event like florence offer a system up to 9 days before and DCM can't?

I can very much understand small events not allowing this, but as a poster said earlier with Active Europe on board surely a system could be put in place and funded by a premium on the users.

Some people have said this is like a product, so it is a customer service question. Do some events, like florence, value participants more?

plodder

servicecharge wrote: »

Ok I'm not try to stir anything here, genuine question.

How can an event like florence offer a system up to 9 days before and DCM can't?

I can very much understand small events not allowing this, but as a poster said earlier with Active Europe on board surely a system could be put in place and funded by a premium on the users.

Some people have said this is like a product, so it is a customer service question. Do some events, like florence, value participants more?

You'll get far with that attitude ... :rolleyes:

meathcountysec

servicecharge wrote: »

I can very much understand small events not allowing this, but as a poster said earlier with Active Europe on board surely a system could be put in place and funded by a premium on the users.

So those who enter on time should subsidise those who don't?

If you think you won't use your entry then don't enter an event that does not allow number swapping.

If you want to use a number swap then find an event that allows it.

Race organisers have enough to be worrying about than have to consider the procrastinations of a small number of potential entrants. If you don't like the race's terms and conditions find one whose terms and conditions you do like.

My 2c

<must be hungry, feeling grumpy:p>

<no dwarfs were injured in the course of this posting>

MrCreosote

servicecharge wrote: »

Do some events, like florence, value participants more?

Of course they do.

In fact by simply asking that people enter at any stage in the 11 months from November to early October it's clear that the DCM actively despises all 12,000+ participants.

Going forward.

How Strange

servicecharge wrote: »

Ok I'm not try to stir anything here, genuine question.

How can an event like florence offer a system up to 9 days before and DCM can't?

I can very much understand small events not allowing this, but as a poster said earlier with Active Europe on board surely a system could be put in place and funded by a premium on the users.

Some people have said this is like a product, so it is a customer service question. Do some events, like florence, value participants more?

I've read through the thread and while I can see the point your making I'm just wondering why you would expect an organisation to make allowances for people who haven't bothered their ar5es registering in time.

12,000 people were able to register before the closing date. The marathon is not something you normally decide to do on a whim; it involves months of training so surely if you decide to do the marathon, train for it then it's a logical conclusion that you would register before the closing date.

Am I missing something here.

I really think you just want to argue a point for the sake of it and nothing anyone says here will change that. So argue away.

servicecharge

By users I mean those swapping.

I'm am soon to be on the dole, coming from min wage. Sorry if I have a concern about spending 90 euro only to get injured, as has happened to me before.

Clearly most people on here don't see 90 euro as a lot of money but it is to me.

average_runner

Well what you moaning about all along if you cant actually afford to pay to do the marathon.


So if there is one number to be swap and that person paid 97 euro's for it as 90 fee and 7 adminstation fee you wouldnt pay for it?


Very few people enter before sept so most people would of paid the full 90.

Just lock this thread its a wind up

MrCreosote

servicecharge wrote: »

By users I mean those swapping.

I'm am soon to be on the dole, coming from min wage. Sorry if I have a concern about spending 90 euro only to get injured, as has happened to me before.

Clearly most people on here don't see 90 euro as a lot of money but it is to me.

You've changed your argument now- arguing about price of events is a totally different thing to swaps/transfers.

nerraw1111

Ridiculous thread.

You missed the deadline, tough. Their race, their rules.

I simply don't believe that anyone who is serious about the marathon, wouldn't enter the race early for fear of injury and losing their entrance fee.

servicecharge

No I'm not.

People were having a go at me for not registering in the previous 11 months.

I am saying I could not afford to pay for an event only to find myself injured with a few weeks to go and no way to get my money back.

That is why I didn't register earlier.