2 new tyres - front or back?

lafors

I put the wifes A3 through its first NCT yesterday, flew threw (it's like being back in school waiting for the result )
The lad who put it through told me the left rear thread depth is down to minimium so needs replacing and there a masonary nail through it too :eek:
So I've ordered 2 Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta's from Camskill (ordered yesterday at 4.45pm and they've already been delivered to me!!).

I've read loads of different "theories" on where to put 2 new tyres, but never any facts, so should they go on the front or on the rear?
btw, its FWD and its only the 140 2.0TDI

dudara

It's generally best to replace tyres in pairs - i.e. both rear tyres or both front tires. You can also rotate both tyres from the front to the back and put new tyres on the front (given that it's FWD).

Mr Benevolent

Definitely the rear ones. Makes no sense to change the front if the problem is at the back.

Anan1

I'd put the new ones on the front, given that they do far more of the work. I have read theories that new tyres should go on the rear, but i've yet to hear a convincing argument.

@Confab - I think he'd rotate the existing fronts to the rear.;)

voxpop

The official line is that you should always put the new tires on the rear - so the rear always has more grip than the front and will always follow the front and so be safer.

So if you are replacing front tires, you should move the old rears to the front and replace the rears with the new tires.

Its questionable whether this is exactly necessary, but is the line from the tire companies.


In your case you just replace the rears.

mickdw

Some theory states to put them on the rear because its safer to have the car planted at the rear thereby leading to understeer which is considered easier to control for average drivers.
I woould always fit the new tyres to the front on a front drive for a number of reasons. They are the first wheels to hit standing water on the road so will have more of the work in moving the water to do compared to the back. They are the driven wheels and the turning wheels so are doing all the work in moving the car and steering so will wear faster.

Quazzie

Always put new tyres on the Front of the car. The reason is that the front wear faster. If you put the new ones on the rear and leave the old ones at the front you will be looking at buying new tyres a lot sooner than the other way around.

Always put at teh front because the front (especially in a FWD) is doing most of the work (Steering, power output) so its more vital that it gets as much grip and control as possible.


\thread

Quazzie

voxpop wrote: »

The official line is that you should always put the new tires on the rear - so the rear always has more grip than the front and will always follow the front and so be safer.

So if you are replacing front tires, you should move the old rears to the front and replace the rears with the new tires.

Its questionable whether this is exactly necessary, but is the line from the tire companies.


In your case you just replace the rears.

Where did you get this information because its wrong!

Anan1

Does the car have ESP? If so, this should address the issue of potential oversteer?

Mr Benevolent

Anan1 wrote: »

@Confab - I think he'd rotate the existing fronts to the rear.;)

Oops, didn't think of that!

mickdw

Quazzie wrote: »

Where did you get this information because its wrong!

I have heard it being recommended to fit new to rear but I certainly wouldnt agree with it and it would lead to an awful lot of rotation of tyres as the part worn tyres being fitted to front each time would be worn in no length.

voxpop

Quazzie wrote: »

Where did you get this information because its wrong!

:rolleyes: good man


http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=52
http://www.michelin.ae/zma/front/affich.jsp?&lang=EN&codeRubrique=20060922130208



There is plenty more if you bother to look

Zube

The official line from the tyre manufacturers is to put the best tyres on the back axle to prevent oversteer.

Since this increases the risk of skids and wheelspin in a front wheel drive car, I don't do it.

Alun

Fifth Gear also did an item on it a while back, with the delectable VBH demonstrating the truth of the 'put new tyres on the rear' idea by driving two identical cars with both setups round a wet test track. As far as I know most big tyre manufacturers also recommend the same. That's good enough for me.

stealthyspeeder

With over 300 bhp goin through my front wheels, I go through tyres rather quickly, I always replace the fronts first as to have worn fronts on mine would be suicidale in the corners! Worn backs may cause lift off oversteer (which is just a bonus really!) which can be contolled if you know what your doing!

R.O.R

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Worn backs may cause lift off oversteer (which is just a bonus really!) which can be contolled if you know what your doing!

And that's the difference between people who should put them on the front or the back

cpoh1

The reason it is recommended to put new tyres on the rear is that when tyres come from the factory they still have grease/lubrication on them from when they were released from the mould making them potentially very dangerous for the first few hundred miles until the tyres are bedded in. It is then recommended that they are swapped to the fron where they will be worn faster. This is for fwd cars obviously.

I never bothered with this myself and would just throw them on the front but be careful with your braking distances for the first few hundred miles.

Mr.David

cpoh1 wrote: »

The reason it is recommended to put new tyres on the rear is that when tyres come from the factory they still have grease/lubrication on them from when they were released from the mould making them potentially very dangerous for the first few hundred miles until the tyres are bedded in.

No its not. Its to mantain the natural understeer tendency of a FWD car. Its all very well saying you can handle oversteer so bang them on the front, but you do need to remember that oversteer in a RWD car and FWD car are very different.

Personally, I'd put em on the rear.

kippy

Oversteer/Understeer, these are road cars we are talking about here.....
If you've got oversteer/understeer issues on normal roads, ie not a racetrack, you're doing something very wrong/dangerous.
Just my opinion, dont kill me for it.

I would always put the new tires on the driven tires, and rotate with the back after a while.
Although I dont think it makes as much difference at normal speeds as some people tend to believe.

stealthyspeeder

cpoh1 wrote: »

The reason it is recommended to put new tyres on the rear is that when tyres come from the factory they still have grease/lubrication on them from when they were released from the mould making them potentially very dangerous for the first few hundred miles until the tyres are bedded in. It is then recommended that they are swapped to the fron where they will be worn faster. This is for fwd cars obviously.

300 bhp helps them bed in considerably quicker!





and need replaced considerably more

unkel

Alun wrote: »

Fifth Gear also did an item on it a while back, with the delectable VBH demonstrating the truth of the 'put new tyres on the rear' idea by driving two identical cars with both setups round a wet test track. As far as I know most big tyre manufacturers also recommend the same. That's good enough for me.

Here is the Fifth Gear clip

cpoh1

Mr.David wrote: »

No its not. Its to mantain the natural understeer tendency of a FWD car. Its all very well saying you can handle oversteer so bang them on the front, but you do need to remember that oversteer in a RWD car and FWD car are very different.

Personally, I'd put em on the rear.

You're getting things mixed up Mr. david. Putting a brand new set of tyres on the back will introduce less grip to the back due to the tyres requiring bedding in for the first few hundred miles. Better at the back than front. Put them on the front brand new and you will UNDERSTEER not oversteer if driven aggressively. All tyre manufacturers recommend that when replacing front tyres put them on the back first to wear in and then swap to the front.

Half worn tyres and bedded in tyres generally have the same grip levels so putting brand new tyres to the back wont give you any more grip than if the half worn were at the back and front were newish. The tyres on the front will have to be replaced more often anyway!

@Stealthyspeeder, I got 8k kms out of goodyear asymmetrics on the front of the DC5, disaster! I wont tell you what i get in the GTR.

Mr.David

cpoh1 wrote: »

You're getting things mixed up Mr. david. Putting a brand new set of tyres on the back will introduce less grip to the back due to the tyres requiring bedding in for the first few hundred miles. Better at the back than front. Put them on the front brand new and you will UNDERSTEER not oversteer if driven aggressively. All tyre manufacturers recommend that when replacing front tyres put them on the back first to wear in and then swap to the front.

Half worn tyres and bedded in tyres generally have the same grip levels so putting brand new tyres to the back wont give you any more grip than if the half worn were at the back and front were newish. The tyres on the front will have to be replaced more often anyway!

@Stealthyspeeder, I got 8k kms out of goodyear asymmetrics on the front of the DC5, disaster! I wont tell you what i get in the GTR.

Thats not true, and no I am not getting mixed up!

If you get 20,000miles from a set of tyres and they are green for the first 200 thats 1% of their lifetime. After that, you want more grip at the rear to promote understeer on the limit as opposed to oversteer. You go drive on a backroad in the rain and tell me tread depth doesnt influence grip level? Nonsense.

find me some manufacturer claims to back it up. All the tyre manufacturers recommmend new tyres to the rear, the links are a few posts above have a read.

R.O.R

cpoh1 wrote: »

You're getting things mixed up Mr. david.

Mr.David wrote: »

Thats not true, and no I am not getting mixed up!

Hmmmm, who to believe on this one

On the one hand, we have someone who got 8,000km from a set of tyres on his Integra DC5 - defininte tyre test credentials there.

On the other hand we've someome who I seem to remember, for his job (lucky b@stard) setting up the handling of Jaguars.

Tricky one

cpoh1

Mr.David wrote: »

If you get 20,000miles from a set of tyres and they are green for the first 200 thats 1% of their lifetime. After that, you want more grip at the rear to promote understeer on the limit as opposed to oversteer. You go drive on a backroad in the rain and tell me tread depth doesnt influence grip level? Nonsense.

The only thing thats nonsense is your notion that a half worn tyre with 5mm thread depth has less grip than a new tyre with 10mm. If you are trying to insinuate that tyres are past their optimum shelf life grip wise after they have worn in more than a couple of mm then I think you are barking mad. My asymmetrics on the skyline break away at exactly the same grip levels as when they were new and they are 2/3 worn now.

Mr.David wrote: »

find me some manufacturer claims to back it up. All the tyre manufacturers recommmend new tyres to the rear, the links are a few posts above have a read.

As I said, when replacing front tyres, put them on the back and then the front. Always put new tyres on the back, where am i disagreeing with this. Seriosuly some people on here think every thread is like a dcik measuring contest.


Back to the OP's question. If the tyres on the front are half worn replace them with the new ones and put the fronts to the back. The fronts will wear quicker and need to be replaced before the backs anyway. Putting them straight to the back and leaving them there doesnt make economic sense. Its not as if your missus is going to be looking for lift off oversteer in her A3 around mondello anyway.

cpoh1

R.O.R wrote: »

Hmmmm, who to believe on this one

On the one hand, we have someone who got 8,000km from a set of tyres on his Integra DC5 - defininte tyre test credentials there.

On the other hand we've someome who I seem to remember, for his job (lucky b@stard) setting up the handling of Jaguars.

Tricky one

Dont be a fool all your life. Do a search on goodyear assymmetrics and you will understand that they are one of the softest compound road tyres out there before you make stupid posts like that. I also have them on my 380WHP R32 GTR skyline thats been on the ring in the last few months for the second time.

Whether someone works in a car dealer for jaguar (are they renowned for handling or something?!) or not means nothing to me, im well able to make my own mind up about cars. I might even have worked on them for a lving but they dont pay well enough :P

Anan1

cpoh1 wrote: »

Dont be a fool all your life.

By all means argue your case, but let's leave the personal insults out of it.

cpoh1

Anan1 wrote: »

By all means argue your case, but let's leave the personal insults out of it.

Im not going to mince my words Anan1, that post was illinformed at best and just plain stupid at worst.

Zube

cpoh1 wrote: »

Putting them straight to the back and leaving them there doesnt make economic sense.

Nevertheless, this is what Michelin, Pirelli etc. etc. recommend. Not bed them in at the back: put the best tyres at the back at all times.

Really. The links are just upthread. Read them.

Alun

cpoh1 wrote: »

Whether someone works in a car dealer for jaguar (are they renowned for handling or something?!) or not means nothing to me, im well able to make my own mind up about cars.

As I understand it he works as en engineer for Jaguar / Land Rover in the UK developing and testing suspension systems.

Anan1

cpoh1 wrote: »

Im not going to mince my words Anan1, that post was illinformed at best and just plain stupid at worst.

So explain why you think so, but without the personal insults. Final warning.

green123

kippy wrote: »

Oversteer/Understeer, these are road cars we are talking about here.....
If you've got oversteer/understeer issues on normal roads, ie not a racetrack, you're doing something very wrong/dangerous.
Just my opinion, dont kill me for it.

I would always put the new tires on the driven tires, and rotate with the back after a while.
Although I dont think it makes as much difference at normal speeds as some people tend to believe.

best post in this thread.
most posters on here need to cop on.

voxpop

Funny how these thread polarise ppl.

Unless you think that all tyre manufactures are lying for some reason, the industry is saying that they should go on the back axle always.

Put them on the front and you probably wont have any problems - but its down to each person to make up their own mind.

Anan1

green123 wrote: »

most posters on here need to cop on.

I'm getting tired of issuing warnings - next time it'll be a week off.

Zube

kippy wrote: »

If you've got oversteer/understeer issues on normal roads, ie not a racetrack, you're doing something very wrong/dangerous

Or you hit standing water, or gravel, or wet leaves, or ice, unexpectedly. Or you had to perform an emergency manouevre. Or...

Mr.David

OP, as you can see its a dividing issue, best make up your own mind. Some prefer on the front, some on the rear. You choose. Before someone gets banned!

This thread is becoming more dangerous than new tyres on the wrong axle

kippy

Zube wrote: »

Or you hit standing water, or gravel, or wet leaves, or ice, unexpectedly. Or you had to perform an emergency manouevre. Or...

Theres a lot more important variables than where to put new tires on your car that are far more relevant in those situations.

Nonoperational

In fairness all the recommendations and the black and white evidence from the video show its best to have your best tyres on the back. Obviously a case of peoples preconceptions getting in the way of all the advice and evidence.

kippy

gpf101 wrote: »

In fairness all the recommendations and the black and white evidence from the video show its best to have your best tyres on the back. Obviously a case of peoples preconceptions getting in the way of all the advice and evidence.

Theres lots of advice and ecidence out there to support the opposite theory as well.
As I said, it would make shag all difference on a normal car.

h3000

I accept all the manufacturers recommendations and reasoning but personally I prefer the new tyres on the front of my car(well really I prefer to do all 4 if I can). I prefer the way my car handles with the gripper tyres on the front(driving wheels by the way). I drive on a lot of small rural roads and personally prefer/feel safer with a little more oversteer than understeer.

Neilw

Think about it this way, the average motorist does not know what under or oversteer is or how to control a car which is understeering or oversteering.

For the average Joe, it's easier to control understeer, just ease off the throttle/reduce the angle of steering, job done. It's a lot harder to catch a tail out slide, lifting off mid corner can make it worse (fwd car). If you do catch it the car could snap back the opposite way and send you off the road.

So what I'm getting at here is, the average Joe could hit standing water mid corner with their new front tyres and fairly worn rears and the back step out causing them to loose control. New tyres on the rear would reduce the chance of this happening

unkel

gpf101 wrote: »

Obviously a case of peoples preconceptions getting in the way of all the advice and evidence.

We've done these threads before and I'll admit that up till now I hadn't been convinced. But the vid has converted me. From now on I shall recommend normally driving family / friends with modest FWD cars to put the new tyres on the back because of the safety aspect.

h3000

Neilw wrote: »

Think about it this way, the average motorist does not know what under or oversteer is or how to control a car which is understeering or oversteering.

For the average Joe, it's easier to control understeer, just ease off the throttle/reduce the angle of steering, job done. It's a lot harder to catch a tail out slide, lifting off mid corner can make it worse (fwd car). If you do catch it the car could snap back the opposite way and send you off the road.

Sorry going way off topic for a sec.

People should really be taught some bit of skid control as part of driver tuition.

Neilw

h3000 wrote: »

Sorry going way off topic for a sec.

People should really be taught some bit of skid control as part of driver tuition.

I agree, but that's another days work

Mr.David

kippy wrote: »

Theres lots of advice and ecidence out there to support the opposite theory as well.
As I said, it would make shag all difference on a normal car.

I would be genuinely intersted to see some of the evidence suggesting new tyres on the front (evidence as opposed to opinion).

sundodger5

i have to point out that you should check the owners manual, as per previous posts new tyres to rear. however most VW's with esp recommend the opposite. the cars brain can obviously compensate?
check those manuals....

Anan1

I was wondering that myself. According to both the video and several posts here, the reasoning behind putting the new tyres on the rear instead of the front is that understeer is more easily countered than understeer? Given that ESP can counter both, is it better to put the new tyres on the front on the basis that they do the vast bulk of the work when braking?

lafors

Holy crap, what have I started :eek:
See this is what was happening on any forums I found where there they talk about it.

I was of the opinion they go on the front but I've watched the fifth gear clip and its pretty definitive that they should go on the back. The car does have ESP alright, I'll have to check if it says anything about putting them on the front in the manual. In fairness as cpoh1 put it, she's not going to be giving it loads of welly and looking for lift off oversteer in mondello plus its not as if the fronts will be bald, they still have a good amount of tread left.

robbie99

unkel wrote: »

Here is the Fifth Gear clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YsQ_a_ijA

Mr.Diagnostic

IMO there are too many variables for just one rule to be correct for all cases.
Different cars handle differently, drivers have different styles, never mind FWD and RWD. A new pair of tyres could be better or worse quality that the other pair on the car.

The cynic in me would wonder if it has something to do with putting new tyres on the rear, with the majority of cars being fwd, that the part worn front tyres will need to be replaced sooner than if they were moved to the back. Remember the recommendations are coming from the people who sell the tyres.

woody33

I agree with putting new tyres on the back for cornering, but I wonder about straight line braking when the weight of the car is transfered to the front? Say in the wet when the car in front has slammed on?