Soccer Mob Mentality...

thebossanova

More of a comment than an article, but still raises a good point. Now that rugby is becoming more and more popular with people/areas that would not normally have been involved many years ago, is rugby losing its way and valued principles?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/new-fans-must-resist-soccer-mob-mentality-1905989.html

Going to Ireland matches in Croke Park in the last few years, the abuse thrown at officials and players has been rising steadily imo. And I know the writer talks about the "Soccer" mentality but I this is not meant as a jibe towards soccer or it's supporters, more about what is acceptable at rugby games. A lot more is let go at soccer matches than rugby games that I don't like, such as chants designed to get a reaction out of opposition supporters/players. I think more emphasis should be put on supporting your team rather than trying to enrage the opposition.

Watching the Leinster game on the TV I clearly heard the old favoured soccer chant of "Same old Munster, always cheating." I was appalled at that. It's been coming into the GP a lot in the last few years, and I don't like it.

Brewster

Unfortunately as the sport becomes more popular, I am afraid this type of behaviour will become more and more common....

SpAcEd OuT

Sour grapes from Hugh Farrelly in my opinion. Yes soccer chants are creeping in but having been at the match I very much doubt the 'inciddents' he refers to in his article

OldJay

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Sour grapes from Hugh Farrelly in my opinion

. . . and outright snobbery.
A nothing-article.

Risteard

Christ there's enough of this crap on MFs without it being brought here too. Even if some of those incidents did happen, it's just a couple of **** that did it hardly a cause for worry. From what I could make out on the TV, the atmosphere was brilliant and although I was annoyed, I'm sure it was brilliant if you were a Leinster fan.


I find it hard to believe that in a crowd of 18000 people there wouldn't be at least a few tools there, especially as rugby is getting more popular.

Paulw

I thought the atmosphere was great at the game.

Wonderful silence and respect showed to both kickers for any penalty/conversion.

Yeah, there's always a few (in EVERY sport) that will be different from the normal regular crowd, but in general, rugby is still a very respectful crowd sport.

SpAcEd OuT

does anyone know how to get into contact with Hugh? I wouldn't mind emailing him my opinion of his 'article' Honestly how childish can you get? Really don't expect that ****e from a rugby pundit in a popular newspaper. Thought he was better than that.

toomevara

Rugby Union's always been far too precious about this sort of thing imo. I'm all for it, nothing like a good bit of old fashioned taunting and bear baiting at a match to enliven the atmosphere. As longs as when the whistle's blown we can all shake hands and have a beer. This is precisely what goes on in rugby league and the atmosphere and noise is way superior to your average union game...large internationals and Leinster/Munster derby's apart...

RuggieBear

Leinster in too inclusive shock.

we were too snobby, quiet, etc and now we are too loud and "soccerish"

me thinks we can't win.

not a fan of the chants that have a (tiny) go at the opposition and their fans but i don't know what the **** farelly witnessed/heard from the press box but the worst i heard was one munster fan cursing and blinding the ref every penalty (and tbh that's been me plenty of times) and a few fools trying to start a "are you Connacht in disguise" chant behind me in the North stand.

So i'm calling BS.

*Tripper*

Apologies for screaming at Hayes after stamping on Healy, heat of the moment and all that. Myself and Hayes included!

justsomebloke

SpAcEd OuT wrote: »

Sour grapes from Hugh Farrelly in my opinion. Yes soccer chants are creeping in but having been at the match I very much doubt the 'inciddents' he refers to in his article

have to agree here. The atmosphere in the good ol days of donnybrook was ****. For the most part there was very little crowd participation, where as now we can actually be called the 16th man as we can make a difference which can be quite evident when opposition teams take line out especially when in front of the terraces.

In my opinion I delighted that the days of a bit of clapping when leinster scored a try being as rowdy as the crowd got are gone. However that said somepeople really do have to learn when to be quite as more people are starting to make noise when opposition players are kicking

justsomebloke

*Tripper* wrote: »

Apologies for screaming at Hayes after stamping on Healy

ye but the big question is did you shout as loud when sexton kicked a munster player

RuggieBear

seemingly it was written by Kelly and not Farelly...mistake in the byline.

tbh the best atmosphere for any leinster game i can remember is agains Leicester ages ago in Donnybrook. They had Serevi playing and all.

ironingbored

I was at the game on Saturday.

An apt description of the atmosphere was "white hot".

I didn't have a problem with the "Felipe", "Championes", "Fields", chants whatsoever.

On two occasions some of us berated our Leinster counterparts for unaccpetable reactions. One was isolated boos aimed at the munster subs as they passed us and the other was again boos when Leamy was coming off.

This kind of behaviour is unacceptable.

Having said that all in all the leinster support of their team was fantastic and really rallied the troops.

Tim Robbins

We're on a slippery slope alright. At the upper levels players are too smart and don't abuse the ref.

At the lower levels, it's nearly every game. Players, Managers, Spectators you name it. It's more head recking than Soccer because in Rugby there are constant flashpoints, every ruck for example each side thinks the other is getting away with something. Yes Laws are being broken all the time but Reffing is all about materiality and spotting the "clear and the obvious".

You need a thick skin in some ways more than Soccer as in Soccer there aren't as many flashpoints. You get longer periods of the game where you don't need a ref.

I'd love to know players views on this in the games the play. As the rugby on the TV is a just a little bit different.

skregs

All this chanting and enjoying the game is ruining rugby...

Aidric

thebossanova wrote: »

Watching the Leinster game on the TV I clearly heard the old favoured soccer chant of "Same old Munster, always cheating." I was appalled at that..

Quelle Surprise. :rolleyes:

Brewster

Did hear a cracker on Saturday at game mind you, "Can you hear the fields being sung, no, no" sung by a Leinster fan to all around him!

thebossanova

Aidric wrote: »

Quelle Surprise. :rolleyes:

I'm Leinster born and bred.

techdiver

I go to many rugby and soccer matches and as far as I'm concerned there is no comparison. Soccer is still way down in the gutter in comparison to rugby when it come to the way supporters conduct themselves.

Tim Robbins

Brewster wrote: »

Did hear a cracker on Saturday at game mind you, "Can you hear the fields being sung, no, no" sung by a Leinster fan to all around him!

I saw a lad wearing a t-shirt saying "Irish by Birth, Leinster by the Grace of Affluence".

Tim Robbins

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I saw a lad wearing a t-shirt saying "Irish by Birth, Leinster by the Grace of Affluence".

Sensational

yupyup7up

Munster cheating?

Should be: "Same old Leinster, always offside"

If ANY Leinster fan started that crap towards me serious damage would be done, Limerick or Dublin. 3 gay-ball Leinster fans started jeering me and a friend after the semi final back in may, werent long F**king off when we ran after them. Cnuts.

ive never heard any major chants against ANY team in thomond park, even though were in Limerick, we respect ALL teams playing here. In Dublin, NZ and france, they are just ignorant pr!cks to opposing teams and fans.

Look at most Leinster games, any game that NZ are involved in and most french teams. they constantly jeer and boo opposition

crisco10

Was in the terrace in the RDS on saturday, didn't hear anything too bad. Personally I wasn't a fan of "same old munster, always cheating". but that wasn't too many people.

I actually thought Leamy got a decent reception going off. He walked straight in front of our terrace as he left the pitch and everybody was clapping him.Was very surprised when there were reports of booing as he went off.

ROG did get a fair bit of stick but nothing worse than Dr phil got over the years. All quite natural really.

GiftofGab

I dont think the chants will ever be as big as football matches because most of rugby supports are mixed together and not allocated designated areas in the stadium. Like in football where one team supporters are all grouped together, therefore abuse and chants are built up and directed towards the opposition.

_blank_

yupyup7up wrote: »

Munster cheating?

Should be: "Same old Leinster, always offside"

If ANY Leinster fan started that crap towards me serious damage would be done, Limerick or Dublin. 3 gay-ball Leinster fans started jeering me and a friend after the semi final back in may, werent long F**king off when we ran after them. Cnuts.

ive never heard any major chants against ANY team in thomond park, even though were in Limerick, we respect ALL teams playing here. In Dublin, NZ and france, they are just ignorant pr!cks to opposing teams and fans.

Look at most Leinster games, any game that NZ are involved in and most french teams. they constantly jeer and boo opposition

Banned, permanently

Let's can any more comments on this post now people.

smurphy29

What is being lost in this thread (and often on boards generally) is the great camaraderie between both sets of fans before, during and after the game. I cycled in to the game with a Munster friend, we both had our teams' flags out fluttering in the breeze as we flew in. Munster and Leinster fans were all drinking in groups together before and after the match. We'd a group of Munster fans in front of us at the game, and while they grew despondant as the game wore on, they were still full of banter.

Time was Leinster were maligned for their poor atmosphere at home games; now they have turned it around and they are taking flak for it. I don't approve of booing players though, or whistling penalty takers for that matter. This is now one of the great rivalries in European sport, and would be duller without a little bit of an edge to it, but it is a rivalry built on respect, and should stay that way.

thehighground

I personally don't like soccer chanting at a rugby match, because it is generally boring and generally unoriginal (i.e., Leeds United and 'Away in a Manager .... ) but at least that one is positive. Why copy another sporting culture? I was pretty chuffed to hear two kiwis doing the AB v Aus Tri-Nations game back a few weeks ago comment/complain about the atmosphere/respect for kickers that "It wasn't like Munster and the 2nd guy said: "No, it wasn't, but nowhere is like Munster." I'd hate to hear someone saying Thomond was as good as Anfield or Old Trafford etc. (I have no problems with the soccer chants etc. in any of these clubs - its just their culture, not ours).

By the way, Farrelly did say there was a great atmosphere in the RDS, it was the bad language, and spiteful abuse etc. that he has a problem with.

Aside from the incessant foul language and spiteful personal abuse -- think of the children, you may jest -- it was disheartening to hear Paul O'Connell being sneered at as a "British" captain and Denis Leamy being booed off as he cradled his troubled shoulder for the umpteenth time.

Anyone care to say what kind of atmosphere they would like and how they like to enjoy it. I prefer supporting my team by song rather than slagging off the opposition team & their fans.

musky

I think most Leinster fans would be dissapointed if leinster didn't win it this season. However from experience they would be more than happy for munster to do it if they couldn't.

I worked with an avid munster fan and we had a friendly rivalry, i was genuinely delighted to see his pleasure when munster won and vice versa when we did it.

Crash

I never quite understand why people, and in this case David Kelly, are quite happy to take a sample of probably 10-20 assholes from a crowd, and write an article at how appalling it is and tarnish what was one of the best atmospheres i've seen in the RDS. From now on everytime I see a black guy drop some rubbish i'm gonna call them all....wait no, that would be a) stupid, b) offensive and c)statistically incorrect. I'm not gonna lie, c) irks me most

For each of the issues people report, I could think of loads from opposition fans over the years (more from the Irish provinces though - the whole familiarity thing I think makes it a bit easier for people to act the arse). For instance, the well noted dickhead screaming at the Munster squad while Sexton lined up his kick, but none of this makes it indicative of any sort of problem, whatsoever. To draw that conclusion is just silly.

Hazys

I must say the chant "same old Munster, always cheating" was pretty lame, it doesnt even make any sense. Its something you would hear at a junior cup game. If i was a Leinster fan i'd be a small bit embaressed...it was really lame and unwhitty

Are Munster renound for cheating or somehting? As a Munster fan its just water off the back especailly since we have bigger issues to worry about.

The_Kew_Tour

Hugh Farrelly is imo a idiot. Think he talks so much rubbish sorry to say but he does have very little time for him and some the stuff I have read from him down the years is just plain and utter tripe.

Whats wrong with a bit of banter or chanting in rugby match? Nobody was killed if "Always cheating same old Munster" chant is worst thing thats going come out of a match lads Rugby aint doing too bad.

Ok I will admit maybe there a little bit more sneering and jeering going on but its only a few and most this at end of day is going happen in rival game even at cricket, tennis or golf down years I can remember fans getting little out of hand.

It happens and will continue to happen. Its way it is.

justsomebloke

Hazys wrote: »

I must say the chant "same old Munster, always cheating" was pretty lame, it doesnt even make any sense.

it's been sung for the last few seasons at least so it's not even new, it's something that is just sung now.

Hazys

Joe the Santa wrote: »

it's been sung for the last few seasons at least so it's not even new, it's something that is just sung now.

What incident(s) are they referring to?

justsomebloke

Hazys wrote: »

What incident(s) are they referring to?

none inparticular as far as I know, it just started in a game where there was a good few penalties

crisco10

Joe the Santa wrote: »

none inparticular as far as I know, it just started in a game where there was a good few penalties

In fairness, I have always looked on this as more of an ironic cheers sometimes. I remember it being sung at a Magners game where Leinster got whistled off the park for about 10 minutes. The other team then knocked it on and when the ref called play back, we were chanting "same old Cardiff, always cheating". Which was obviously BS, if anything Leinster were the "cheats"...

danthefan

What a joke of an article, condescending and bitter beyond belief and completely ignores the fact (or is ignorant of it) that every single chant used by Leinster supporters on Saturday has been used by Munster fans in the past. I'm not passing judgement or getting into tit-for-tat stuff because the chants don't bother me in the slightest: If Munster win the HEC this year then their fans can chant away to their hearts content as far as I'm concerned. It's the article I have an issue with. Just want to make that clear. And if he's so concerned then the best course of action would obviously be to let things go rather than point out what a very small number of fans did (I didn't hear any booing of Leamy and I was in the terrace) on a national scale, making everyone who reads it think we're all a bunch of ****ing yobs which is not even nearly the case. Pathetic.

anonymous_joe

Crash wrote: »

I never quite understand why people, and in this case David Kelly, are quite happy to take a sample of probably 10-20 assholes from a crowd, and write an article at how appalling it is and tarnish what was one of the best atmospheres i've seen in the RDS. From now on everytime I see a black guy drop some rubbish i'm gonna call them all....wait no, that would be a) stupid, b) offensive and c)statistically incorrect. I'm not gonna lie, c) irks me most

For each of the issues people report, I could think of loads from opposition fans over the years (more from the Irish provinces though - the whole familiarity thing I think makes it a bit easier for people to act the arse). For instance, the well noted dickhead screaming at the Munster squad while Sexton lined up his kick, but none of this makes it indicative of any sort of problem, whatsoever. To draw that conclusion is just silly.

You know what a journalist is right? He's a gobshíte who posts baseless crap on the internet to annoy people.

Bit like us, only he gets paid.

It's all a crock of shíte. I've been to football matches in England, Ireland and South America. The atmosphere is amazing. It's not as friendly a lot of hte time as in rugby, quite far from it, but that's not a good or bad thing. Merely a thing.

I've never met riot police at a rugby fame for one thing.

There's a huge culture of people seeking out insults lately I've noticed. I heard countless stories after the semi-final of terrible things said and done by both Leinster and Munster fans, and yet all the fans I met were in great form and having a fantastic day, though obviously one bunch were a bit miserable at teh end of it all.

I was in Ballsbridge for the afternoon, and the pubs were full of fans of both teams. No trouble, just a good atmosphere.

NickNolte

RuggieBear wrote: »

Leinster in too inclusive shock.

we were too snobby, quiet, etc and now we are too loud and "soccerish"

me thinks we can't win.

This is about the height of it. Are we soccer hooligans or snotty elitists? I don't think we're either but pick one if you want to. Not both. Otherwise you'd be contradicting yourself.

If I'm going to be labelled as a snobby D4 head (even though I'm anything but) for loving the team I've supported, through thick and thin, for over 20 years then it's a small price to pay to be honest. We've been abused and stereotyped for long enough; long before we ever proved ourselves. If we haven't earned the respect we deserve, as a team or as supporters, by now... well the detractors can go to hell.

I was at the match last week - the atmosphere was incredible. I drank the night away with my fellow Leinster supporters and plenty of Munster supporters. The same Munster supporters that took the mickey out of me after we got bashed down in Thomond last year. It was all good natured. There were some snide remarks but that's sport. Nothing sinister, nothing nasty. Just a bit of ribbing. The shoe was on the other foot last Saturday. No doubt it'll be back on the Munster foot in the not-too-distant future. As is the nature of hotly contested derbys. Bottom line - we're all having fun supporting the teams we love, playing the best team sport on earth.

Cop on the lot of you. Munster and Leinster supporters both come from wildly varied backgrounds. Let's just accept that and move on. The D4 stereotypes (as well as the turnip-munching stereotypes) are absolutely f**king retarded.

NB: There was a close-to-Thomond silence for all of ROG's kicks at the RDS last Saturday. That says it all.

Soccer'isation of rugby will happen over my dead body. Long live Irish rugby.

Brian CivilEng

Hazys wrote: »

What incident(s) are they referring to?

There was an off the ball incident on front of where I was standing on the small terrace around the 77th minute involving Malcom O'Kelly and Jerry Flannery I think (could be wrong about who was involved), I think that's what sparked off the same old Munster chant.

Hugh Farrelly(David Kelly) wrote:

and Denis Leamy being booed off as he cradled his troubled shoulder for the umpteenth time.

With regards to this comment, I watched the match again and I noticed that while Denis Leamy was being shown on TV on the ground cradling his shoulder Luke Fitzgerald was being substituted, and walked off to cries of Luuuuuuuuuuuke. I am pretty sure that this was the first Leinster game that our journalist has attended therefore had no idea how we serenade the genius that is the Luke.

Saturday was one of the best atmosphere's I have experienced in the RDS, with some great gentle ribbing of our biggest rivals ("do you regret it Niall" etc.) I think whomever it was that wrote the article in the Indo should be forced to write an apology tomorrow.

handsomecake

i thought it was hilarious when the leinster fans started singing "athenry's in connacht" as a retort to munster singing the fields of athenry. brilliant banter

crisco10

abitofacomedian wrote: »

There was an off the ball incident on front of where I was standing on the small terrace around the 77th minute involving Malcom O'Kelly and Jerry Flannery I think (could be wrong about who was involved), I think that's what sparked off the same old Munster chant.




With regards to this comment, I watched the match again and I noticed that while Denis Leamy was being shown on TV on the ground cradling his shoulder Luke Fitzgerald was being substituted, and walked off to cries of Luuuuuuuuuuuke. I am pretty sure that this was the first Leinster game that our journalist has attended therefore had no idea how we serenade the genius that is the Luke.

Saturday was one of the best atmosphere's I have experienced in the RDS, with some great gentle ribbing of our biggest rivals ("do you regret it Niall" etc.) I think whomever it was that wrote the article in the Indo should be forced to write an apology tomorrow.

if that's what happened. thats hilarious! every rugby hack should know Luuuuuuke by now, have heard it numerous times on commentary "folks, they are not booing, they are merely making a tribute to Luke Fitzgerald".

Further fuel to the Kelly knows nothing about rugby fire....

peterako

A general comment on my experiences of chants and booing at Internationals:

1. Definitely an increasing lack of respect by SOME individuals at matches towards players (eg. the odd shout during place kicking)
2. An escallation of such behaviour since the move to Croker (could just be coincidence as the game becomes more 'inclusive'/accepted/mainstream)
3. Even back in the 'good old days' if a player blatently fouled they were sometimes booed. Particularly if the Ref missed it. Simon Webster kicking/stamping BOD's head in a Scotland Ireland match comes to mind....every time Webster got the ball he was booed.
4. This discussion is degrading quickly to 'who are the better SUPPORTERS? Leinster or Munster. The story of this country? We tend to divide ourselves and be conquered all on our own

Just my 2c worth

What concerns me more is the way discipline is starting to get a little looser, in no way helped by the way the authorities handle infractions....

But that's already in other threads.

Peter

OldJay

I think judging by the comments in this thread alone, some people are too thin-skinned. Not just on a journalist's comments but also in a tribal vein.

ch2008

Football songs at a rugby match?? Never! :eek:

tHE vAGGABOND

It is hereby decided that you are no longer have any fun, or engage in any banter at rugby matches...

The only conversation allowed is talking down the economy and bigging up the recession and of course the mandatory chat about how the people at the school you used to go to are now knackers, unlike the angels who where there back in your day!

Anything else will result in a severe beating!

gaius c

Wasn't at the game myself but I talked to a Leinster supporting mate at work who said the atmosphere was "hostile" for Munster fans but he then went and said the game (a few years back) where Sexton made his debut in Thomond park was hostile so I'm puzzled because that was one of the tamest games I've ever been at.

damselnat

peterako wrote: »

1. Definitely an increasing lack of respect by SOME individuals at matches towards players (eg. the odd shout during place kicking)
   
2. Even back in the 'good old days' if a player blatently fouled they were sometimes booed. Particularly if the Ref missed it. Simon Webster kicking/stamping BOD's head in a Scotland Ireland match comes to mind....every time Webster got the ball he was booed.

I don't worry too much about the silence during kicks, in my experience if there are people making noise when a kicker is lining up they're quickly shushed by everyone around them, but there'll always be the odd (often drunk) tosser who'll just make noise anyway.
I don't mind a bit of banter during a match, it's all part of the craic, the problem football's had is the violence more than the "banter" (though I hate the thought of vicious or intentionally offence/malicious chanting/jibes that have been in the spotlight recently - haven't witnessed anything even near it at a rugby match, hope I never will). Banter or whatever you want to call it during a match is all part of the fun otherwise. As for booing, I've never heard a rugby crowd boo a player (in Ireland). I'd have great issue with booing players or referees, but like peterako said, booing a player's actions, fouls or the like, is different, and I've even witnessed fans booing their own team's players - (thinking of Ireland v Argentina last year when fans around me in the Hogan stand were not at all impressed at the fights breaking out and booed when it was Irish player starting as much as if it was anyone else).
It's great that the sport is spreading and increasing in popularity, I think it's helped up the atmosphere at matches. It's when it becomes intentionally offensive and specifically designed to rile up opposition fans or be vicious and derogatory to players/officials that it becomes a problem

[Jackass]

[img]http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicv/vfiles25791.jpg[\img] Feckin hell lads.....you obviously haven't been to many soccer games if you think that's bad......don't be so precious....[/img]

Shan75

The media, and in particular that dirty tabloid rag masquerading as a serious newspaper, have an objective to dramatise every little thing as well as try to create division where none exists simply because there are enough poor unfortunates in the country who a) want to read all this crap and/or b) want to believe all this crap.If people continue to purchase said rag they will continue to peddle their nonsense and to be honest anybody parting with good money for this publication deserve the gutter journalism they get.

Apart from that good banter was always a great part of this great game and long may it continue.Now if only we could come up with an original idea rather than aping the bottom of the barrel stuff on Soccer AM we'd all be better off.What I'd like to see is more of the famed Irish wit and quick fire slagging etc rather than a load of sheep baaing the same uninspired and insipid refrain.

The Leinster supporters club had a letter published in the Indo today:

We have been made aware of your article in the Irish Independent regarding a certain "soccer mob mentality" that you perceive to be appearing at the RDS.

It is disappointing that yet again you choose to single out Leinster supporters for criticism, while in recent times your colleagues in both the print and TV press have heaped praise on our support, Leinster Rugby and the Official Leinster Supporters Club, for turning the RDS into an intimidating arena for visiting teams while being one of the most enjoyable and family-friendly venues on the European circuit.

.... Continues

As a season ticket holder I was very disappointed about the stories printed in the media lately. They seemed to have a nastier slant to them than the usual Leinster bashing. I'm glad this letter was published.