How much longer can our government last?

thetonynator

The government is in an extremely delicate position, wiht Fas, john o; donoghue, etc. How long until the greens pull out or more TD's leave to cause the government to collapse?

dny123456

about another 2 years.

O'Donoghue is pretty much gone... wont last till the end of the week
FAS board half gone, other half will be gone very soon
FAS CEO is gone

Nothing to prevent FF clinging to power, apart from the back benchers. Doubt it will be the greens that pull the plug. At least I think they shouldn't; difficult decisions need to be taken, they are the only party with the back bone to take them. They'll drag FF back benchers along kicking and screaming, hopefully.

snubbleste

2012 is the obvious answer

There have been so many scandals and controversies involving FF since say 2001, yet they are still voted in and irish people just tolerate the political landscape we're in.

who_ru

as said can't see the greens pulling the plug on this one, certainly no FF backbenchers will want to walk, turkeys don't vote for xmas after all.

FF know they are finished and want to limit the damage as much as possible, so by staying in power until 2012, after things recover somewhat they will undoubtedly claim credit for taking the hard decisions necessary, all of which are as a result of their woeful economic mismanagement over the last 10 years i.e. benchmarking, children's allowance increased way beyond what was necessary, same for welfare, low tax high spend with no consideration given to long term economic policy, it was all spend spend spend and they well and truly landed us in the mire. but wait for it, in 2 or 3 years they will say 'we were the ones to take the hard decisions' without ever saying most if not all were a direct result of absolute economic mismanagement.

DarkJager

If people vote them back in the next time a general election is called, we might as well just pull the plug and sink this country into the sea. Hopefully the stupid, brainless FF fanatics who voted this crowd of clowns in last time, will stay home on polling day and let the sensible adults do the right thing.

irish_bob

for another year at least i hope , any alternative involving labour would be worse than what is there now as the most important issue that needs tackling is a sacred cow to labour , public sector reform and pay

fine gael also need time to replace kenny who is what holds a sizeable amount of the swing vote from moving to fine gael

who_ru

i don't think there were that many brainless FF fanatics voting them in the last time, in fact i think FF got a huge vote in dublin and commuter counties, mainly on the basis that FF told them that they were the ones to ensure that property values would continue to rise and it would be in their interests to ensure that FF economic policies continued to be implemented. in other words most of these people voted with their pockets and didn't consider society in general. guess that dream of a house being an ever increasing asset to to be cashed in on has turned into a nightmare for many.

just watch at the next general election to see what type of vote john o donoghue gets, they will see him as being hounded out of office by the media and labour. irish politics will never change it will always be local.

Ludo

5 days. Govt will fall on Monday as the Greens pull out.

Judgement Day

Ludo wrote: »

5 days. Govt will fall on Monday as the Greens pull out.

If you really believe that you should have a bet with Paddy Power as they are offering 2/1 on the Greens withdrawing from Government before 31st December 2009. Personally I think that the Greens will hold on to power like grim death as they know they won't have even one TD after the next election .

who_ru

Judgement Day wrote: »

Personally I think that the Greens will hold on to power like grim death as they know they won't have even one TD after the next election .

you just know it's true - NAMA or anything else will not budge them.

Senna

If the Greens pull out they will go from being in power to literally oblivion, there's no chance of them pulling out.

av8rirl

Ludo wrote: »

5 days. Govt will fall on Monday as the Greens pull out.

+1

FF will of course want to stay until NAMA is implemented and every potential scandal is brushed under the carpet.

Very disappointed at FG's lack of balls at the moment.

major bill

until the next 20 scandals pass and people finally grow a pair and take a stand against them.

Darragh29

The only way this government is going to fall I think is when hundreds of thousands of Irish people hit the streets and STAY THERE until a general election is forthcoming.

This government has no shame, there is nothing that can come down through the radio or the TV that will embarrass them, JOD claimed up until this evening that he was entitled to to claim all those outrageous expenses.

It's completely and entirely up to us how long this government stays in office. Funny how JOD has to resign his job but he doesn't have to leave Fianna Fail, because Fianna Fail is the natural home of treble chinned corrupt self serving bullsh*tting wasters like JOD.

Liam Byrne

No matter how long it ends up being, it's already been at least 5 years too long.

How the **** can the Irish people have been so ****ing blind ? I mean, you could spot YEARS ago that this party - the one that has included Haughey, Lenihan senior, Burke, Lawlor, Ahern, Cooper-Flynn and now O'Donoghue - was out to flourish at all costs, feather its own nest and screw us.

And FAR TOO MANY of the electorate fell for it time and time again.

I know it's politically incorrect to call the electorate stupid, but at this stage there really is no other word for it.

If the rest of the party were stunningly competent, I'd say something; cost-benefit analysis might allow scope to let the weasels have some leeway while the rest got some stuff done.

But even then there's the obvious question - why wouldn't the decent ones weed out the scum ?

And in the absence of competence (Coughlan is well-documented, and Lenihan Jnr lies and throws our money away without reading reports) there is ABSOLUTELY no excuse.

I detest generalisations, but at this stage there is no other conclusion to draw other than that there are far too many Irish people who are (a) thick or (b) so totally devoid of morals and standards that they don't care who's in power as long as they themselves are raking it in. Basically the kind of people might not start a citywide riot themselves, but who'd be happy if someone did because they could then walk in and grab the TVs.....they gain at everyone's expense, so they don't see the problem.

I'm gone beyond glib jokes about Fianna Failure etc, at this stage, and unfortunately boards would just replace any suitable words for this party with asterisks, so there's no point even trying to think of one that describes these scum.

kerry4sam

Darragh29 wrote: »

The only way this government is going to fall I think is when hundreds of thousands of Irish people hit the streets and STAY THERE until a general election is forthcoming.

This government has no shame, there is nothing that can come down through the radio or the TV that will embarrass them, JOD claimed up until this evening that he was entitled to to claim all those outrageous expenses.

It's completely and entirely up to us how long this government stays in office. Funny how JOD has to resign his job but he doesn't have to leave Fianna Fail, because Fianna Fail is the natural home of treble chinned corrupt self serving bullsh*tting wasters like JOD.

Why would you think he should have to resign from the Fianna Fail party?

kerry4sam

thetonynator wrote: »

The government is in an extremely delicate position, wiht Fas, john o; donoghue, etc. How long until the greens pull out or more TD's leave to cause the government to collapse?

This upcoming meeting(s) and subsequent vote(s) from their party-members will answer that. If they remain on after this week is over then in my opinion right now, it won't matter what they face in the future they will weather that storm also and the government will remain as is until the next General Election.

Liam Byrne

kerry4sam wrote: »

This upcoming meeting(s) and subsequent vote(s) from their party-members will answer that.

If they remain on after this week is over then in my opinion right now, it won't matter what they face in the future they will weather that storm also and

It's not a case of "weathering the storm"; it's a case that they'll have shown that they have no morals or backbone, and that will cause 2 things:

1) FF will walk all over them on any more inevitable scandals and ****ed-up policies

2) The Greens will be dead in the water after the next election and may as well pack their bags and emigrate along with all the other unemployed, becasue they'll have shown themselves to be spineless shower of self-interested ****s who have absolutely no interest in morals, ethics or the good of the country.

Harsh ? Well, they already shafted the country with how they got into Government, and remember that the above i's not yet a description of them; it's only a potential one, as they have an opportunity to prove that description wrong at the weekend, and if they do I will say fair play.

kerry4sam wrote: »

the government will remain as is until the next General Election.

That, unfortunately, is a given. We need a General Election in order to get rid of this shower of incompetent, corrupt, self-serving wasters.

Darragh29

kerry4sam wrote: »

Why would you think he should have to resign from the Fianna Fail party?

Your dead right, he shouldn't have to resign from the Fianna Fail party. If the party had any honour, respect for the electorate or respect for their own standards, they would f*ck him out of the party without giving him a chance to resign.

Unfortunately he is surrounded in Fianna Fail by people who are as removed from reality as he is.

Look at just one example, Noel O' Flynn, Cork North Central TD. This guy gets paid around 100K a year as a TD. He managed to claim 180K in expenses last year, that's 1.8 times his basic salary, he has managed to claim in one year as expenses.

If I did that in a private sector employment, I'd be taken outside the building and kicked around the car park for a start, then the Gardai would be called and I'd be charged with fraud.

I simply wouldn't get the opportunity to claim 1.8 times my salary in expenses, because there would be a system in place that would make sure that my expenses were completely consistent with reality.

av8rirl

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How the **** can the Irish people have been so ****ing blind ? I mean, you could spot YEARS ago that this party - the one that has included Haughey, Lenihan senior, Burke, Lawlor, Ahern, Cooper-Flynn and now O'Donoghue - was out to flourish at all costs, feather its own nest and screw us.

And FAR TOO MANY of the electorate fell for it time and time again.

I know it's politically incorrect to call the electorate stupid, but at this stage there really is no other word for it.

I'm not making excuses as to why FF are still there since the last GE... and I do think that most of the electorate aren't thick or stupid...

The real question at the last election wasn't "do we take FF out of power?"

The real question was "how can we put Enda Kenny/Pat Rabbitte and their policies into power?"

So I suppose that people looked at FF as the lesser of two evils.

The problem here is still a LACK OF DECENT OPPOSITION... altho Gilmore did seem to stand up to the plate a little today!

nesf

DarkJager wrote: »

If people vote them back in the next time a general election is called, we might as well just pull the plug and sink this country into the sea. Hopefully the stupid, brainless FF fanatics who voted this crowd of clowns in last time, will stay home on polling day and let the sensible adults do the right thing.

If FF are reelected in the next General we should put FG and Labour out to stud and look for a competent Opposition tbh.

Zambia

The standard of Opposition is shocking... I have never looked at a Irish politician and said "I reckon he's ok".

Except David Irvine RIP,Martin McGuiness and Joe Higgins despite not liking the policys of any of them or them in general. But I did believe them when they spoke.

efb

SW and PS Pay increased by 100% since 2001, Child Benefit increased 400%...

I wonder why people voted FF...

Davidth88

Darragh29 wrote: »

Look at just one example, Noel O' Flynn, Cork North Central TD. This guy gets paid around 100K a year as a TD. He managed to claim 180K in expenses last year, that's 1.8 times his basic salary, he has managed to claim in one year as expenses.

I simply wouldn't get the opportunity to claim 1.8 times my salary in expenses, because there would be a system in place that would make sure that my expenses were completely consistent with reality.

I think you have hit the nail on the head right there .

I totally agree that people who have legitimate expenses should get them back , I travel a lot for work , but I have to show receipts , stick within quite modest guidelines as regards flights/accomodation . These ' free loaders ' can claim all sorts of expenses without ever proving they were an expense, ie that they spent the money in the first place.

If the TD you quote in your post could prove that he spent that money, and for the correct reasons , then I truly wouldn't care if he claimed 1 million in expenses .

My worry is that expenses are being used to augment an already generous salary.

Anyway , thats well off track.

In answer to the OP..... depends if the Green Party 'Turkeys' vote for Christmas this weekend

PCPhoto

surprised no one had actually mentioned that JOD said he will resign (announcement came around 10ish last night)

Its been obvious for years that our politicians have been creaming it - scandal after scandal came up and was brushed away because the vast majority of them are involved in similar actions.

Personally I would like to echo Gilmores and some other politician(name escapes me) in the Dail yesterday comments when called for accountability, complete reform of pay in the Civil Sector.

Like ALL other jobs a Politician should have a paypacket (ie. 100K and be told that they must make their own way to work) I know that WHEN I took a job in Dublin - while living in Cork....this simply meant I had the choice to commute at my expense ...or MOVE (at my expense) .... I cant understand why politicians dont have the same situation. - they are grossly overpaid and would need to commute from all over the country - YES, but part of the payment is to include their travel to Dublin at least once a week if not twice or more.

the HSE/Government/Private Sector needs complete reform - its hard to believe that out Taoiseach gets paid MORE than the President of USA.....our politicians NEED to get a 50% paycut and expenses removed/limited and our politicians need to be held accountable for their actions. (ie. wasted 50Million on E-voting....and the cost of storing them since... if/when e-voting is acceptable the machines will be outdated and need to be scrapped and new ones purchased..... what I would like to know is....who advised the minister on this idea and is that person still involved in the government ?

Biggins

Judgement Day wrote: »

If you really believe that you should have a bet with Paddy Power as they are offering 2/1 on the Greens withdrawing from Government before 31st December 2009. Personally I think that the Greens will hold on to power like grim death as they know they won't have even one TD after the next election.

Which is why a number of Green names have been put forwards as the next CC!

PCPhoto wrote: »

...but part of the payment is to include their travel to Dublin at least once a week if not twice or more.

They already get an extra €234 a week allowance to cover "Walk-around" expenses!
Its dam dear I suppose, having to refill the Merc every morning! The hardship of it all.

hallelujajordan

thetonynator wrote: »

The government is in an extremely delicate position, wiht Fas, john o; donoghue, etc. How long until the greens pull out or more TD's leave to cause the government to collapse?

Given the timing of JO'D's resignation I think there is some real concern in Dail Eireann that the government might fall this weekend. The only reason I can see for him to stick it out another week is because if the government falls and an election is called before he resigns then he will automatically get reelected for another term. . So either he is not confident the govt can survive this weekend or the Brian Cowen is not confident. Either way, it is worrying.

Personally, I would be concerned if the govt were to fall this weekend. Enda Kenny would almost certainly be our next Taoiseach and I think he has shown this week that he doesn't have the kahunas to make the tough decisions. I'm not sure that Gilmore will be able to happily adopt the 'deputy' position and I am concerned about how well that partnership can work.

ednwireland

irish_bob wrote: »

for another year at least i hope , any alternative involving labour would be worse than what is there now as the most important issue that needs tackling is a sacred cow to labour , public sector reform and pay

eeerrrrrrrrrrr
you think the party that created the bloated public sector has the cajones to sort it out (its irrelevant no-one will do it)

meditraitor

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Given the timing of JO'D's resignation I think there is some real concern in Dail Eireann that the government might fall this weekend. .

Thats is the reason I came to the politicing forum today,


Why is there so much speculation that the government might fall this weekend?

hallelujajordan

meditraitor wrote: »

Thats is the reason I came to the politicing forum today,


Why is there so much speculation that the government might fall this weekend?

Green Party delegates are voting at the weekend on :

1. Programme for Govt that is not yet agreed
2. NAMA

If they vote to reject either it is likely that the Greens will have to pull out of govt. Looks like JOD is waiting to see what happens here before he formally resigns.

irish_bob

ednwireland wrote: »

eeerrrrrrrrrrr
you think the party that created the bloated public sector has the cajones to sort it out (its irrelevant no-one will do it)

fianna fail under bertie bloated the public sector for votes , labour believe fully believe in public sector as a core party of thier idealogy , i want time for fine gael to replace kenny , a fine gael overall majority is the only thing that can save this country

hallelujajordan

irish_bob wrote: »

fianna fail under bertie bloated the public sector for votes , labour believe fully believe in public sector as a core party of thier idealogy , i want time for fine gael to replace kenny , a fine gael overall majority is the only thing that can save this country

I agree, and as a long time FF voter I never thought I would say so.. We really need to have strong and stable government. A FG overall majority would give us that stability.

kerry4sam

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Green Party delegates are voting at the weekend on :

1. Programme for Govt that is not yet agreed
2. NAMA

If they vote to reject either it is likely that the Greens will have to pull out of govt. Looks like JOD is waiting to see what happens here before he formally resigns.

Don't they need a 2/3 majority on both counts for the motions to pass and they remain on in Government?

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

....as a long time FF voter....

I'm going to forego the obvious "why ? why ???" and the "look where you've helped to land us".......

.....the reason being the feeling of - poetically - "Hallelujah!

Finally, a sign that the tide is indeed turning and people are starting to see sense"

hallelujajordan

kerry4sam wrote: »

Don't they need a 2/3 majority on both counts for the motions to pass and they remain on in Government?

Yeah, the vote is to accept the programme for government and to reject NAMA so the Programme needs 2/3 support; NAMA only needs 1/3

jprender

hallelujajordan wrote: »

NAMA only needs 1/3

It's only been a short time that they have been sitting with FF, but I see they have picked up a trick or two nonetheless.

kmick

The way I see it is the Greens have two choices.

1) Stay in government and lurch from crises to crises in get slaughtered at the polls in two years time.

2) Drop the whole stinking mess that is this government down the toilet and retain some shred of credibility maybe allowing people like me who voted for them in the last election to possibly consider voting for them again. I only say possibly because there performance has been so abysmal on every key decision they have made that IMHO they should go the way of the PD's.

Biggins

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Yeah, the vote is to accept the programme for government and to reject NAMA so the Programme needs 2/3 support; NAMA only needs 1/3

Apparently true.

The Greens leaders has the rules now written that they get what they want - a lot easier!
So much for a fairer democracy in action! :mad:

Yet again, more disgusting rule twisting by so called representatives!

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm going to forego the obvious "why ? why ???" and the "look where you've helped to land us".......

.....the reason being the feeling of - poetically - "Hallelujah!

Finally, a sign that the tide is indeed turning and people are starting to see sense"

But you didn't forego it ? ?

To be clear, I would actually still consider myself a FF supporter and would much prefer to see a FF led government after the next GE. I think Brian Lenihan is really starting to get to grips with the nations finances and is ready and able to make the tough decisions. I think NAMA is the only show in town (Incidentally, I agree with those who suggest that the reason Kenny is so quiet at the moment is because he doesn't want to bring down the government before they push NAMA through)

That said, I recognise that there is zero chance of FF being able to get the numbers to form any sort of stable government if the GE happens this year. When faced with the options, I would much rather see a stable single party government with a mandate and the strength to make the tough decisions.

Do we really believe that the Kenny / Gilmore / Burton / Bruton combination will have the strength to form an alliance that will be able to bring about the much needed reforms to the public sector ?

Biggins

All I can see for the near future, is utter chaos.
And I don't state that with any glee what so ever.

jprender

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Do we really believe that the Kenny / Gilmore / Burton / Bruton combination will have the strength to form an alliance that will be able to bring about the much needed reforms to the public sector ?

Yes, I do.


Also, it's about time these arrogant, self-serving, free-spending FF TD's really find out what the public think of them.

Bring on the GE, bring it on soon.

bauderline

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Given the timing of JO'D's resignation I think there is some real concern in Dail Eireann that the government might fall this weekend. The only reason I can see for him to stick it out another week is because if the government falls and an election is called before he resigns then he will automatically get reelected for another term. . So either he is not confident the govt can survive this weekend or the Brian Cowen is not confident. Either way, it is worrying.

Personally, I would be concerned if the govt were to fall this weekend. Enda Kenny would almost certainly be our next Taoiseach and I think he has shown this week that he doesn't have the kahunas to make the tough decisions. I'm not sure that Gilmore will be able to happily adopt the 'deputy' position and I am concerned about how well that partnership can work.

brace brace brace !!!

hallelujajordan

jprender wrote: »

Yes, I do.


Also, it's about time these arrogant, self-serving, free-spending FF TD's really find out what the public think of them.

Bring on the GE, bring it on soon.

There is an urgent need to reduce pay in the public sector (dealt with in other threads) . .

SIPTU believe it is appropriate to look for a 3.5% increase for some of the best paid European health sector workers, despite the €400M pw gap in the public finances. .

Gilmore and the rest of the Labour crew are intrinsically linked to the unions and just yesterday morning was addressing the SIPTU conference to huge applause.

Do you really believe that Gilmore and Kenny together will be able to successfully take on the unions and bring about the change that is needed ? ? ?

jprender

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Do you really believe that Gilmore and Kenny together will be able to successfully take on the unions and bring about the change that is needed ? ? ?

To restate.....yes, yes I do.

I believe that they can take on the monster that FF created.

bauderline

By all accounts Enda K's performance in the Dail yesterday was nothing short of shocking... in terms of running the government in this country the man is not fit for purpose.....

The choices are really bleak IMO !

bauderline

jprender wrote: »

To restate.....yes, yes I do.

I believe that they can take on the monster that FF created.

Gilmore has basically said he won't cut Public Sector pay.... that is neither acceptable nor viable....

jprender

Well then it is FG for me so unless Gilmore can tell me where he is going to get the money from.

I have 40-50 years left on this planet, and I can honestly say that I will never ever vote for FF because of the legacy that they are leaving us.

hallelujajordan

jprender wrote: »

To restate.....yes, yes I do.

I believe that they can take on the monster that FF created.

Anyone who believes that Gilmore will tackle the Unions ought to take a look at this . .

http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/DonationsDisclosed/TDsSenatorsandMEPs/DonationsDisclosedbyTDsSenatorsandMEPsfor2007/File,8137,en.pdf

Labour and the Unions are intrinsically linked and share more or less the same base of support. A Coalition government that includes Labour will never be able to take on the unions ..

jprender

I think that over the last decade, FF, through social partnership, have been cosier with the unions than Labour.

No point trying to get the sh1t back in the horse now.

bauderline

Personally I would like to see FF make it to December and see if they have the balls to make the spending cuts that are so badly needed. If they go before that the country is in real bad trouble....