Race Relations in Ireland

Hazys

Nearly every second thead in Humanities and After Hours has something to do with Race or Foreigners. I'm a bit suprised by this, since Ireland has a fairly low percent of our population are of a different race or nationality. Therefore the majority of the people who contribute to these threads would have very little interaction with a person of a different race but seem compled to talk about it or talk about how it is not a big deal for black people to be racist towards white people while the other way around is criminal!

10-15 years ago it would have been very rare to see a black person walking down the street but now its pretty normal. I remember when i was in 2ndry school there was one asian kid in my year and 2 black kids the year below and that was it in the whole school. But in my younger brother's 4th year class 5 out of 25 are of different race.

Has the quick change of very few people to some people of different race caused our immaturity to foreigners? and in another 10-15 years will be be more used to it as our kids go to school with and become friends with other kids, etc, do we become more mature?

Or are we as a nation of Irish more racist than other countries?

Some countries seriously struggle with race relations while others seem to have blended the different cultures well into their indiginous culture. How do we see Ireland handling race in 15 years? I'd like to think we are capable of integrating different cultures well because unlike most countries foreigners came to Ireland on their own terms not tru slavery and colonilization.

Please note I'm talking about the minority of people, not the entire nation is racist.

ArthurGuinness

The whole race thing annoys me. I was talking to a senior detective the other day who was out at some check point they had set up looking for something they had been given a tip off about and as such were stopping every car, he said he stopped a car that a black gentleman was driving and asked him the usual questions where are you heading tonight is this your vehicle blah blah at which point the guy flipped out at him and said the only reason he was stopped was becuase he was black despite evry other car passing through being stopped and accused him of being racist. I know this detective well and I can tell you he is anything but racist.

You cant say anything to anybody who is of a different ethnicity without been accused of being racist, If people stopped bull****ing on and on about it it would be as big of an issue.

I can only hope that it dosnt get as bad here as it is in America where alot (not all but alot) of African Americans in my opinion have a major chip on their shoulder, murderers have been released on the whole "he is only here in court today because he is black" crap. And the way they shi*e on about 800 yrs of slavery and poverty, the Irish had the same and we dont go on about it at every given opportunity. Another thing is how come when white people shout "white power" its racist but when black people shout "black power its not"

I am ready for the onslaught of fellow board users disagreeing with me so I will finish on this note. I am not a racist I welcome every person from every corner of the world to Ireland with open arms regardless of color, nationality or religion. But don't come here and call me a racist if I disagree with you over something, or you jump the que in the supermarket and I give you a piece of my mind dont call me a racist. Racism works both ways YES there is racism in Ireland like every country but I feel some people use it as an excuse to get what they want.

Hazys

Seriously Arthur you post is BS.

Im not a racist but..."all black people use racism as a cop out", "why can't we shout out White Power but black people can shout out 'Black Power'", and from the other thread "Irish people suffered more from slavery than africans but we seem to put up with it and got over it, while African Americans still have a chip on their shoulder"

This is exactly what I'm talking about...you have one story true or not of a black person using racism as a cop out, i dont know how many black people you have seen shouting 'Black Power' up and down Irish city streets but im guessing its not a lot, 'Irish people suffered more from slavery than africans' FFS

How do any of these stories (a black person getting off murder in a country 3000 miles from you because he's black)affect your day to day? why do you need to make an issue of this when it doesn't occur in this country? Your rant had nothing to do with my orginal post but you saw a reason to go on a "I'm not a racist but..." rant, why?

ArthurGuinness

Where does it say that every black person uses racism as a cop out I said some do. Yes Irish people did suffer as much do a bit of research on it before you totally discredit it. I have more storys and personal ones at that, as well just last week I was accused of being a racist because I didn't give my black taxi driver a tip (I don't give any taxi drivers tips black or white). You say Irish people have to be more mature towards people of different races and nationalities, I agree but it is never going to happen when ordinary everyday people are accused of being racists at every given moment.

Take 2 kids in school if a white child is bulling an another white child its bulling, if a white child is bulling a child of a different race, color or creed there would be a whole race issue made of it. The point of my post was to say if there was less emphasis put on race it wouldn be as big a deal.

No I have seen no black people going around the streets of Ireland shouting black power and I never said I did I if you re-read my post refering to the US.

Look I am not going to bother giving anymore of a response to you. Its my opinion and I am entitled to it whether you think its bs or not.

Hazys

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

Where does it say that every black person uses racism as a cop out I said some do You're whole post blames black people for racism, you put no blame on anybody else. Yes Irish people did suffer as much do a bit of research on it before you totally discredit it. Id like to see these facts and figures of the millions of Irish slaves in the carribean and the large irish-carribbean communites that evolved from it I have more storys and personal ones at that, as well just last week I was accused of being a racist LOL because I didn't give my black taxi driver a tip (I don't give any taxi drivers tips black or white). You say Irish people have to be more mature towards people of different races and nationalities, I agree but it is never going to happen when ordinary everyday people are accused of being racists at every given moment.

Take 2 kids in school if a white child is bulling an another white child its bulling, if a white child is bulling a child of a different race, color or creed there would be a whole race issue made of it. Again how frequent is this in Ireland? Why does it bother you when it really doesnt happen all that often in Ireland? The point of my post was to say if there was less emphasis put on race it wouldn be as big a deal.

No I have seen no black people going around the streets of Ireland shouting black power and I never said I did I if you re-read my post refering to the US. Again why does something happening to a black person 3000 miles away from you, makes you jump to conclusions that it happens here?

Look I am not going to bother giving anymore of a response to you. Its my opinion and I am entitled to it whether you think its bs or not. Your entitled to your opinion, but I want to know why you feel so strongly about Black people getting away with racism in Ireland and in the US?

.

ArthurGuinness

Funny you never mentioned any where in any of your replies what I said in my last paragraph of my original post. also our comment on me totally blaming black people for racism is bull**** again if you re-read my post you will see where its say if PEOPLE didnt make such a fuss over "racism" it wouldnt be as big a deal. Also note where I say YES there is racism is Ireland. Racism isn't all a one sided game it comes from both sides in many different ways thats the point I was trying to get across. They should just rename this site arguments.ie I am not going to even entertain you anymore good luck.

boars.ie

Hazys wrote: »

Therefore the majority of the people who contribute to these threads would have very little interaction with a person of a different race but seem compled to talk about it

It does not take to be an astronaut to talk about the solar system, right?

Hazys wrote: »

Has the quick change of very few people to some people of different race caused our immaturity to foreigners?

The keyword here is "quick", IMHO mentality of homo sapiens
evolves slower than globalization and migration it entails.

Hazys wrote: »

Or are we as a nation of Irish more racist than other countries?

Although I am white, basing on experiences from other countries
I lived so far, I'd say you are dealing well with racism.

Hazys wrote: »

others seem to have blended the different cultures well into their indiginous culture.

As above, some cultures were in it for ages,
some face it only for last few years.

Zombrex

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

You cant say anything to anybody who is of a different ethnicity without been accused of being racist

I never understand what statements like that mean

Obviously you can say something to someone of a different ethnicity without being accused of being a racist, if you said "Hello" to a Kenyan you aren't going to be accused of racism.

This types of statement tend to be used to justify something that may have been pretty racist.

There certainly is cases, some famous, of people taking something wrongly, out of ignorance or a desire to feel persecuted. The most famous example I can think of is the Washington woman who claimed racist abuse because her supervisor used the word "niggardly", which anyone with grasp of English knows has nothing to do with the slang for negro.

But equally the charge "you can't say anything these days..." is often used right after something particularly offensive and stereotypical, like Bill O'Reilly saying how he can't get over how having dinner in a black restaurant was just like having dinner in a white restaurant.

O'Reilly obviously meant this to be some sort of compliment, but it was ridiculous patronising and self serving, like someone saying how impressive Obama is at speaking.:rolleyes:

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

Another thing is how come when white people shout "white power" its racist but when black people shout "black power its not"

Because most of the time when you hear someone shouting "white power" they are part of a white supremacy group.

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

where alot (not all but alot) of African Americans in my opinion have a major chip on their shoulder

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

I am not a racist

For someone who isn't a racist you seem to have very particular ideas about large groups of people based on their ethnicity.

Or did you not mean your comments to single out a particular group? Do you accept that a lot of white Americans have chips on their shoulders as well, and having a chip on your shoulder has nothing to do with your skin colour, and everything to do with the specific instance of the person?

Zombrex

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

if you re-read my post you will see where its say if PEOPLE didnt make such a fuss over "racism" it wouldnt be as big a deal.

By "PEOPLE" do you mean the victims of racism?

ArthurGuinness

Wicknight wrote: »

I never understand what statements like that mean

Obviously you can say something to someone of a different ethnicity without being accused of being a racist, if you said "Hello" to a Kenyan you aren't going to be accused of racism.

No what I ment by this was exactly what I said earlier a Garda at a checkpoint stopping a person of different ethnicity simpling doing his job and being called a rasict for it.

I mean me going home in a taxi asking the driver how much I owe him giving him the money him saying "what no tip" to which I replied "no, sorry no tip" to which he replied "racist"

I mean when I am standing in a lunchtime que at centra and a person of differnt ethnicity jumps the line and I say to him "eh there is a que you know" I shouldn't then get a litney by the said individual saying the only reason you are saying somthing to me is because I am black you a are a racist.


RACE SHOULD NOT FACTOR IN ANY OF THESE SITUATIONS! I didn't make any of them an issue of race.

Wicknight wrote: »

someone who isn't a racist you seem to have very particular ideas about large groups of people based on their ethnicity

Where once did I use any derogatory remarks towards any person of another race. I said black people use the race card alot and in my opinion they do. I am not a racist and personally I couldn't really care if anyone thinks I am. I am the type of person who would go out of his way to help some regardless of race, age, sex, or religion. I have many friends from many different cultures and I see them all equally.

Wicknight wrote: »

By "PEOPLE" do you mean the victims of racism?

No by people I mean everyone. You, me, everybody. Especially the people I mentioned above the taxi driver, the guy at the check point and the guy in the que, none of the above things that happened had any baring on race, yet they turned it around that way. They were being treated the very same way that everybody else would have been. People like this are putting chips on other peoples shoulders and creating more tension

Dades

Hazys wrote: »

Nearly every second thead in Humanities and After Hours has something to do with Race or Foreigners. I'm a bit suprised by this, since Ireland has a fairly low percent of our population are of a different race or nationality. Therefore the majority of the people who contribute to these threads would have very little interaction with a person of a different race but seem compled to talk about it or talk about how it is not a big deal for black people to be racist towards white people while the other way around is criminal!

Whatever about After Hours (stay away, tbh), why are you so surprised to see threads relating to race issues in Humanities? It's the natural home for discussion of such things.

As for people having very little interaction with a person of a different race, that's completely subjective. Maybe you don't, but I'm sure loads of people here deal with a multitude of races in work or other situations.

fwiw, I also think you were somewhat disingenuous in misquoting ArthurGuinness' comments as applying to everyone for dramatic effect.

Zombrex

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

RACE SHOULD NOT FACTOR IN ANY OF THESE SITUATIONS! I didn't make any of them an issue of race.
...
I said black people use the race card alot and in my opinion they do.

Do you not see the issue here?

Why make this about the race of the person and then lump people together, rather than simply about the individuals being a**holes? You complain that race shouldn't be a factor in any of these situations, and yet then make it about race.

If you had said no tip to the taxi driver and he had said "prick" you probably would have gone that taxi drive was an a-hole.

But because the taxi driver was black and make a comment about race you start forming a stereotypical view that "black people use the race card alot".

If the driver had been white and said you were cheap would you be thinking that white people use the cheap card a lot?

Instead of individual nasty people who happen to be black, you make this about black people in general. Because a black person was nasty to you and unfairly called you a racist that is not a reflection on black people. It is a reflection on the individual person who happens to be black. White people are a-holes as well.

To go from individual cases of black people being nasty to an assumption about black people as a group, as you have done by thinking that black people use the race card "a lot", is doing the very thing you are giving out about.

Some black people are not nice people. Some white people are not nice people. This is not a reflection on other black or white people.

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

No by people I mean everyone. You, me, everybody. Especially the people I mentioned above the taxi driver, the guy at the check point and the guy in the que, none of the above things that happened had any baring on race, yet they turned it around that way.

Has it occured to you that perhaps they were just nasty people?

I really don't see how you get from these incidents to saying that people shouldn't "make a fuss" over racism?

Are you suggesting that most cases of racism are in fact fake?

ArthurGuinness wrote: »

They were being treated the very same way that everybody else would have been. People like this are putting chips on other peoples shoulders and creating more tension

I agree, but why should I or someone else, therefore not make a fuss about racism?

Fink Goddie

I do agree with ArthurG in his point that there's one rule for black people and another for white people in some cases.
Like look at the mobo awards, if we had an all white awards it would be seen as racist.
At the BET awards when Jamie Foxx referred to Michael Jackson as 'ours' because he was black, now if Madonna died and a white person said she was 'ours' there would be uproar.

These double standards are a cause of racism and a divide i think.

seahorse

Someone very close to me works in security, in the retail sector. He has been doing this for years. He has NEVER arrested a non-white shoplifter without being accused of racism. It is the standard response.

People on this thread can talk out their arses all day long but the reality is that this happens and it happens every day. If they’ve any doubt about it there’s a very easy way to clarify that for themselves: Take a job for a few weeks in the Irish retail security sector.

To accuse someone of racism where there has been none is obviously an unacceptable character slur; but in fact, I think those crying 'racism' for spurious reasons like this are doing the greatest injustice to those who genuinely experience this dehumanising form of discrimination. They detract credibility from the genuine cases that truly deserve to be listened to and heard. Every heard the story about the boy who cried wolf?

Zombrex

seahorse wrote: »

Someone very close to me works in security, in the retail sector. He has been doing this for years. He has NEVER arrested a non-white shoplifter without being accused of racism. It is the standard response.

People on this thread can talk out their arses all day long but the reality is that this happens and it happens every day.

Not sure anyone is denying that.

I imagine when the security guard arrests a white shoplifter they say that the guard is picking on them or singling them out for some other reason (I once say a skanger kid shouting blue murder that the security guard in Burger King was "touching him", as the security guard was kicking him out for drinking). Anything to make an argument or to avoid responsibility.

The thing is though the security guard probably doesn't go "Tut, white people!"

The issue is that one shouldn't let a black person (or anyone else) making fake racism claims cloud ones judgement about black people in general. That is in itself racism.

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I do agree with ArthurG in his point that there's one rule for black people and another for white people in some cases.
Like look at the mobo awards, if we had an all white awards it would be seen as racist.

Not this old chestnut again. The Mobo awards is not "all black", white people regularly participate and even win the Mobo awards, in the same way there is nothing stopping a black country and western singing winning the Country Music Awards.

The hint is in the name, Music of Black Origin awards. It is not about black people it is about "black music", a loose term that encompasses styles that have traditionally arisen out of black cultures around the world put particularly in America such as jazz blues and hip-hop that have always had white participants.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

At the BET awards when Jamie Foxx referred to Michael Jackson as 'ours' because he was black, now if Madonna died and a white person said she was 'ours' there would be uproar.

There would? Why exactly?

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

Not this old chestnut again. The Mobo awards is not "all black", white people regularly participate and even win the Mobo awards, in the same way there is nothing stopping a black country and western singing winning the Country Music Awards.

The hint is in the name, Music of Black Origin awards. It is not about black people it is about "black music", a loose term that encompasses styles that have traditionally arisen out of black cultures around the world put particularly in America such as jazz blues and hip-hop that have always had white participants.



There would? Why exactly?

Its to celebrate black music though, why is there a need to design an awards ceremony around colour/ethnicity??
Country music is not racist because it's a genre not a racial group
I don’t think one skin colour or race of people has the right to claim a certain type of music of being exclusively their own. Modern rock and pop comes from all sorts of sources and influences. The Beatles and the Stones hugely contributed to todays modern music. Some of the best blues players are not black, have taken the genre and added their own considerable influence to it.
Why can we not just have an awards ceremony based on the genre of music, not the skin colour of those that perform it?

Its fairly obvious why there would be uproar if we were to say 'Madonna was 'ours'. i dont need to spell it out for you.

Hazys

Dades wrote: »

Whatever about After Hours (stay away, tbh), why are you so surprised to see threads relating to race issues in Humanities? It's the natural home for discussion of such things.

As for people having very little interaction with a person of a different race, that's completely subjective. Maybe you don't, but I'm sure loads of people here deal with a multitude of races in work or other situations.

Fair enough, but overall in Ireland the majority of people don't overly have too much interaction with foreigners other than buying something in a shop or getting a taxi. Very few people in Ireland would have had real conversation or dealings with foreigners to make their conclusions and have a v ignorant view (sometimes inncoent views) based on nothing but appearence.

fwiw, I also think you were somewhat disingenuous in misquoting ArthurGuinness' comments as applying to everyone for dramatic effect.

I dont feel i misquoted ArthurGuinness. In post #2 i quote him 3 times and i dont think i was completely off the mark.

1st quote "all black people use racism as a cop out" This is where i jumped to a slight conclusion from his first post. In the first paragraph of his post he tells a story of a black person pulling the racism card against a garda. In the 3rd paragraph he talks about a black person in the US getting off murder because of playing the race card. Then in his conclusion "But don't come here and call me a racist if I disagree with you over something, or you jump the que in the supermarket and I give you a piece of my mind dont call me a racist" sorry if i jumped to a conclusion that he was talking about black people, but he didnt mention anybody else and looking at the other posts he's still on about black people.

2nd quote ""why can't we shout out White Power but black people can shout out 'Black Power'"" what he said "Another thing is how come when white people shout "white power" its racist but when black people shout "black power its not"" Keep in mind i started the OP about Ireland and Race Relations.

3rd quote "Irish people suffered more from slavery than africans but we seem to put up with it and got over it, while African Americans still have a chip on their shoulder"" what he said in the other thread "My response to that is so did we Google Irish slaves in the Caribbean, we suffered the same if not more than African Americans but we don't use this as an excuse to intimidate people or victimize people because of their race or the color of there skin yes we have the whole hating the English thing but that is only now a very small minority or a few songs in the pub when you have had a few to many."

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Its to celebrate black music though, why is there a need to design an awards ceremony around colour/ethnicity??

Because there is no other term for this collection of music genres. Is that an issue?

Would you take offence to terms like "Irish traditional music" because it is classifying a style of music based on its primary origin being Ireland? Would you read that you have to actually be Irish to play Irish traditional music?

Do you think a black person who plays Gaelic football in Australia would have a case to have the Gaelic bit dropped because he isn't Irish and found it offensive that the sport made an assumption that he was? That would be a bit silly in my opinion, on a number of levels

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Country music is not racist because it's a genre not a racial group

Music of black origin isn't a racial group, it is a classification for a sub-set of music that emerged from primarily black communities in America based on traditions carried over from Africa, such as blues jazz and hip-hop.

The organisers of the MOBO awards felt that traditional rock and pop orientated award shows were not representing these areas of music, or black performers, so they started their own award show.

Some what ironically genres like hip-hop now dominate modern popular music, so I would wonder about the relevance of the MOBO awards these days.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I don’t think one skin colour or race of people has the right to claim a certain type of music of being exclusively their own.

Get back to me when someone actually does that :rolleyes:

Music Of Primarily Black But Also Lets Not Forget White People Who Did It As Well Music Awards (MOPBBALNFOWPWDIAWM Awards) doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

I think it would take some really looking for a reason to be offended to view the MOBO Awards as claiming that these styles of music were exclusively for black people and attempting to exclude white people.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Why can we not just have an awards ceremony based on the genre of music, not the skin colour of those that perform it?

That is what the MOBO awards. Music of Black Origin is a genre of music. The skin colour of those who perform it is not releveant, the MOBO awards regularly have white performers and award winners.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Its fairly obvious why there would be uproar if we were to say 'Madonna was 'ours'. i dont need to spell it out for you.

Yeah, you do. Simply inventing a "oppression" so you can feel there is a double standard is silly. Demonstrate that there actually is a double standard.

Boskowski

Being a foreigner myself I can't say I experienced any racism towards me in Ireland in almost 9 years, but then I'm a white caucasian.

But that's not my point. I'm German. Before I came to Ireland I was born in Berlin, grew up there, school years, Uni years, all that in Berlin, never moved. Came here as a fully grown professional. So my point is I know my Berlin so to speak.

In Germany and specifically in Berlin we have quite some foreign influx from all sorts of nationalities & races, but predominantly Turkish, Arabian, Balkan, Eastern Europe. In that order even I would say.

I don't have the exact figures right now but I guess Berlins share of non-nationals is def'ny in the double figures if not low twenties even.

That means that in some areas there is a very low share of non-nationals - usually the 'better' areas - and in some other areas you'd feel like you're in 'little Istanbul' as some of my countrymen might put it.

I observed that the areas with the lowest share of non-nationals seem to have higher rates of either openly expressed or underlying racism amongst the 'national' population.

Areas with a high share of non-nationals seem to have a much higher acceptance of non-nationals and not a lot of racism at all amongst the 'national' population.

Which leads me to believe that people basically seem to be afraid of the unknown. Once you actually get to know 'Ali' and you see that he also bickers about the wife, and how the daughter is driving him mad and that he too loves the footie on Saturday it's very difficult to be a racist anymore.

So I reckon the same thing would be true for Ireland. The current kids generation here - having grown up and gone to school with all sorts of ethnic groups - will probably not have a lot of racist tendencies at all.

Having said that - the Irish that I know def'ny don't give me the impression of having racist tendencies at all.

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

Because there is no other term for this collection of music genres. Is that an issue?

Would you take offence to terms like "Irish traditional music" because it is classifying a style of music based on its primary origin being Ireland? Would you read that you have to actually be Irish to play Irish traditional music?

Do you think a black person who plays Gaelic football in Australia would have a case to have the Gaelic bit dropped because he isn't Irish and found it offensive that the sport made an assumption that he was? That would be a bit silly in my opinion, on a number of levels


Music of black origin isn't a racial group, it is a classification for a sub-set of music that emerged from primarily black communities in America based on traditions carried over from Africa, such as blues jazz and hip-hop.



Music Of Primarily Black But Also Lets Not Forget White People Who Did It As Well Music Awards (MOPBBALNFOWPWDIAWM Awards) doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

I think it would take some really looking for a reason to be offended to view the MOBO Awards as claiming that these styles of music were exclusively for black people and attempting to exclude white people.


That is what the MOBO awards. Music of Black Origin is a genre of music. The skin colour of those who perform it is not releveant, the MOBO awards regularly have white performers and award winners.



Yeah, you do. Simply inventing a "oppression" so you can feel there is a double standard is silly. Demonstrate that there actually is a double standard.

There is another name, what about music of african or american origin, or where the music comes from, not the colour of peoples skin. they are saying that all black people are a group or are something different to everyone else.

Again Irish is not a skin colour its an origin, there can be black or white Irish people.

Would we call Gaelic football 'white football' NO BECAUSE THATS RACIST!!!

how did Leona Lewis win 2 awards this year? Her music is just pop, written by music mogels to make money. she's manufactured, her music could have been recorded by a white artist & would not have been nominated. she's only nominted because she's a successful black woman.
I didnt see Kylie getting an award for her pop music, did you???

Hazys

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Its to celebrate black music though, why is there a need to design an awards ceremony around colour/ethnicity??
Country music is not racist because it's a genre not a racial group
I don’t think one skin colour or race of people has the right to claim a certain type of music of being exclusively their own. Modern rock and pop comes from all sorts of sources and influences. The Beatles and the Stones hugely contributed to todays modern music. Some of the best blues players are not black, have taken the genre and added their own considerable influence to it.
Why can we not just have an awards ceremony based on the genre of music, not the skin colour of those that perform it?

Its fairly obvious why there would be uproar if we were to say 'Madonna was 'ours'. i dont need to spell it out for you.

Again i wanted to talk about Race Relations in Ireland, as we have different history to the UK and the US, but this all seems like the Kramer racist rant from a few years back which appears to be a flagship for racists to follow. Basically the rant went on about why its ok for there to be Black colleges Vs having white colleges, black history month Vs white pride month, etc.

The reason is suprisingly enough that life in the US hasnt been all that fair to Blacks. Black people only really became equal in terms of human rights in the 60's, but that doesnt suddenly put them equal in terms of life opportunities and they do need a leg up in terms of education and housing.

The reason for black colleges is due to the fact that before the 60's blacks werent allowed attend college so they had to set up their own colleges and schools and fund them themselves. Black colleges in the early 1900's suffered massive discrimination from the college boards, who did everything in their power to revoke the status of their degrees and college status (not to mention a couple of colleges being burned to the ground). In the 1960's things started to become equal but that didn't change years of non access to even primary school education, proper funding for schools and colleges. Black people obviously couldnt afford to go to college because they couldnt afford it due to the fact they were restricted to certain jobs. You suddenly dont change from a plumber to a doctor overnight as soon as you have equal rights with white people so you suddenly cant afford to send your kids to college over night.

Black people also suffered discrimination in housing for hundreds of years hence the reason the change in the 60s suddenly didnt have black people moving out of the ghettos into the white suburbs. For example in Detriot in the early 1900's Blacks were forced into the overcrowded getto areas in cities, had to pay Negro taxs on property, couldnt work proper jobs so again this didnt change over night the long term effects are still there, black people still are the majority of the population in most US cities. So now Black people get favourable grants for housing to help lessen the effects for the massive discrimination for hundreds of years.

Of course black people in the US have a chip on their shoulder, it may not apply to the individual person but as race of people in the US their still at a major disadvantage today compared to white people after hunderds of years of discriminations. Yes things have changed a lot in 50 years but not enough to make things equal after 400 years of opression.


Anyway i dont know why people in Ireland need to bring up race relations in the US to back up their questionalble views on the small minority populations we have here.

Fink Goddie

[People have died to end segregation and fought for equality when some people try to open up a divide of black and white, white people are notallowed to stage anything with 'white' in the title. Surely this is causing discrimination by its very existence?
"ba-ba black sheep" was banned in schools because it was viewed as racist but its ok to have Music of BLACK origan awards

Fink Goddie

Hazys wrote: »

Of course black people in the US have a chip on their shoulder, it may not apply to the individual person but as race of people in the US their still at a major disadvantage today compared to white people after hunderds of years of discriminations. Yes things have changed a lot in 50 years but not enough to make things equal after 400 years of opression.

A major disadvantage?? The president is black now, they have the same rights. It shouldnt take another 350 years for them to get that chip off their shoulders??

Hazys

Fink Goddie wrote: »

[People have died to end segregation and fought for equality when some people try to open up a divide of black and white, white people are notallowed to stage anything with 'white' in the title. Surely this is causing discrimination by its very existence?
"ba-ba black sheep" was banned in schools because it was viewed as racist but its ok to have Music of BLACK origan awards

Seriously get off how white people are oppressed because we cant say white and that black people are living the high life going around calling everything black.

Again i presume you are talking about the US and not ireland, but in the the US they have Paddy's day parades, Mexican Cinco De Mayo parades, Black History Month, the German American National Congress, and lots of other ethic promotion groups, holidays and parades. But you only seem to be hung up on the term Black, why?

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

There is another name, what about music of african or american origin

Because "black" encompasses both those things, and the UK.

Music of Black Origin is a snappier title than Music of African/American O (the MAAO Awards)

Also what is the difference?

Surely all the white people you think are going to be offended by the MOBO Awards are just replaced by a load of non-African people who are offended by the MOBO Awards?

Of course that would not happen because the assumption would never be that you have to be African to participate, just like there is no assumption that the MOBO Awards are just for black people.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Again Irish is not a skin colour its an origin, there can be black or white Irish people.

Yes but your argument is that white people feel excluded from the MOBO Awards based on the term "black origin" when used to describe the music, that it is racist and ignores white contributes to the musical genre.

That makes as much sense as saying non-Irish people would feel excluded from an Irish Traditional Music awards, which I find very difficult to believe.

Again there can and are both black and white participants and award winners at the MOBO awards.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Would we call Gaelic football 'white football' NO BECAUSE THATS RACIST!!!

Gaelic football is calling the football "white" football. You know of many black Celts?

But no one gives a rats because no one is overly-sensitive to think that because the Gaelic is in the term it means it is only for the descendent of Celtic people (ie white people)

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Her music is just pop, written by music mogels to make money. she's manufactured, her music could have been recorded by a white artist & would not have been nominated. she's only nominted because she's a successful black woman.

Like I said, the MOBO Awards have in my opinion lost all relevance because the popular music charts are now dominated by "black origin" music, and black performers, a situation that is the reverse of when the MOBOs were starting in the early 90s.

There is no need any more to highlight to the mainstream either black origin music, or black performers who in the 90s would have been under represented in popular music, as now popular music is dominated by them.

But that is a different issue to whether or not the concept of the MOBO awards is racist.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

I didnt see Kylie getting an award for her pop music, did you???

Amy Whinehouse, a white middle class Jew, won a MOBO for best Female Performer.

She won because of the style of music she performers, not because of her skin colour.

Sort of blows your whole argument out of the water.

Hazys

Fink Goddie wrote: »

A major disadvantage?? The president is black now, they have the same rights. It shouldnt take another 350 years for them to get that chip off their shoulders??

Well actually Obama is American African and his African father didnt grow up in the opression like African Americans.

But anyway thats besides the point, so you think everything is equal between white people, african americans, mexicans? You dont see how hundreds of years of oppression could have african americans still at a disadvantage 50 years after 'equal' rights?

Fink Goddie

Hazys wrote: »

Seriously get off how white people are oppressed because we cant say white and that black people are living the high life going around calling everything black.

Again i presume you are talking about the US and not ireland, but in the the US they have Paddy's day parades, Mexican Cinco De Mayo parades, Black History Month, the German American National Congress, and lots of other ethic promotion groups, holidays and parades. But you only seem to be hung up on the term Black, why?

I'm hung up on it because there's one rule for black people and another for white people and that shouldnt be the case.

Again there are black and white Irish people, if there was white history month there would be riots, there are black and white germans, there's no mention of the the colour of peoples skin in any of these parades etc,.

Having a black awards is saying that all black people are a group or are something different to everyone else and this only makes divisions worse.

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

Gaelic football is calling the football "white" football. You know of many black Celts?


Amy Whinehouse, a white middle class Jew, won a MOBO for best Female Performer.

She won because of the style of music she performers, not because of her skin colour.

Sort of blows your whole argument out of the water.

Your missing my point, Leona does pop music, yet she won an award, ive never seen Britney or Kylie win awards have you?? they do pop music, Leona won because she is a successful black woman.
Amy won because she sings Jazz and blues which would be considered by the MOBOs as black music.

So that kinda blows your argument!!!


And gaelic is not calling it 'white' which would be racist!!! Doesnt matter if there were no black celts!

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

A major disadvantage?? The president is black now, they have the same rights. It shouldnt take another 350 years for them to get that chip off their shoulders??

I think you shot yourself in the foot there with that comment, as you highlighted black Americans have 350 years of oppression behind them, you don't whip that clean in a short period of time.

The black middle class in America has slowly begun to emerge from the end of segregation (which remember was only 40 years ago, within the lifetime of a large percentage of Americans alive today).

The black middle class only hit its stride in the late 80s and early 90s. There is an issue with downward mobility though, children of middle class black people ending up worse off than their parents, which slows the increase in the middle class.

It will be a while until a black American feels on par with a similar white America.

Dades

Hazys wrote: »

Fair enough, but overall in Ireland the majority of people don't overly have too much interaction with foreigners other than buying something in a shop or getting a taxi. Very few people in Ireland would have had real conversation or dealings with foreigners to make their conclusions and have a v ignorant view (sometimes inncoent views) based on nothing but appearence.

Irish people work in shops too, you know, and drive taxis. I work in IT with a host of different nationalities. Or by proper interaction do you only mean socialise with?

I don't think the vast majority of Irish people have an issue with any nationality as long as they are pulling their weight. In the same way they don't like a Romanian who begs for a living, or a coloured lady with 6 kids in the welfare queue they will also look down on some Irish layabout smoking butts on a corner waiting for the bookies to open.

It's non-contributors to society that rile people up.

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Your missing my point, Leona does pop music, yet she won an award, ive never seen Britney or Kylie win awards have you?? they do pop music, Leona won because she is a successful black woman.

Leona Lewis's album, which I should point out I've not listened to, is classifed by Amazon.com as R&B Soul, a genre that is covered by the MOBO awards.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/leona-lewis-R-B-Soul-Music/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=Leona%20Lewis&rh=n%3A754576%2Ck%3ALeona%20Lewis&page=1

Amy Whinehouse, a white woman, who's style of music is also covered by the MOBO awards, won the award in 2007.

Lewis is also half-black, her dad is black her mum is white (and Irish I think).

I'm really failing to see what point it is you think you are making? The MOBO awards ignore white performers who's music is not covered by genre classification? Yeah, I'll give you that one.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Amy won because she sings Jazz and blues which would be considered by the MOBOs as black music.

So that kinda blows your argument!!!

I'm failing to see how.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

And gaelic is not calling it 'white' which would be racist!!! Doesnt matter if there were no black celts!

That is just silly. No one thinks there were black Celts, yet no one find the term Gaelic football offensive. I wonder why?

You are just inventing an argument to feel oppressed by.

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

I think you shot yourself in the foot there with that comment, as you highlighted black Americans have 350 years of oppression behind them, you don't whip that clean in a short period of time.

The black middle class in America has slowly begun to emerge from the end of segregation (which remember was only 40 years ago, within the lifetime of a large percentage of Americans alive today).

The black middle class only hit its stride in the late 80s and early 90s. There is an issue with downward mobility though, children of middle class black people ending up worse off than their parents, which slows the increase in the middle class.

It will be a while until a black American feels on par with a similar white America.

How did i shoot myself in the foot?? Do you live in the past and bring up things that happened years ago?
Having black award ceremonies doesnt help bridge the divide does it?

At the end of the day there would be a riot if there was a mowo awards, and that is unfair!!!

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Having a black awards is saying that all black people are a group or are something different to everyone else and this only makes divisions worse.

Umm, you don't seem to be over flowing with concern that things like the MOBO awards worsen stereotypes about black people.

Quite the opposite in fact, you seem to be using the MOBOs as some sort of evidence that white people are being oppressed by blacks.

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

Umm, you don't seem to be over flowing with concern that things like the MOBO awards worsen stereotypes about black people.

Quite the opposite in fact, you seem to be using the MOBOs as some sort of evidence that white people are being oppressed by blacks.

Answer me this, if there was a MOWO awards would there be uproar??
If there was white history week would there be uproar??

U know there would!

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

How did i shoot myself in the foot?? Do you live in the past and bring up things that happened years ago?

No, but my economic situation, where I live and the lower class status of my family do.

Try telling a young black man being raised in a Chicago project because for the last 350 years his ancestors have been fighting slavery and economic oblivion, to "get over it"

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Having black award ceremonies doesnt help bridge the divide does it?

It helps gives young black men and women a feeling of representation in the wider community, rather than feeling that their culture is being ignored.

I agree entirely that it would be better if mainstream media had done this on their own, as they are now, and as such awards like the MOBO Awards would have been unnecessary.

But unfortunately that was not the case.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

At the end of the day there would be a riot if there was a mowo awards, and that is unfair!!!

You can invent hypotheticals to feel oppressed if you like but I see no evidence of that.

The Country Music Awards basically is the MoWo awards. When was the last time you saw black people rioting at the CMAs because they were racist?

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Answer me this, if there was a MOWO awards would there be uproar??

Possibly if it was being put on by the Arian Alliance. :rolleyes:

The issue you are ignoring, possibly out of ignorance or possibly deliberately, is that the reason why there is "uproar" over things like White Power marches is because they are organised by race hate groups, not because they are "celebrating white culture".

I think hardly anyone would bat an eyelid if "white history week" was put on if it wasn't being put on by a white supremacy group try to make a point. There isn't up roar because it is white history week, there is uproar because there is white history week presented by the KKK

But those seem to be the only groups bothered about such things.

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

The Country Music Awards basically is the MoWo awards. When was the last time you saw black people rioting at the CMAs because they were racist?

No its not, there's no mention of skin its just a genre of music!

What about the BET awards, It screams of discrimination, again if we had a white entertainment awards there'd be uproar.

If black people want to be treated equally then why is it ok for them to do this and not us??

No need for a White or Black anything today!!!!!!!!!!

It should be a two way street or there'll always be a divide, double standards will breed racism!

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

If black people want to be treated equally then why is it ok for them to do this and not us??

No one has told you not to. You have invented "uproar" so you can feel that if you did do it you would be oppressed. You can then claim a double standard exists.

How about you put on your Music of White Origin Award show and get back to me if you are fire bombed :rolleyes:

Hazys

Dades wrote: »

Irish people work in shops too, you know, and drive taxis. I work in IT with a host of different nationalities. Or by proper interaction do you only mean socialise with?

I don't think the vast majority of Irish people have an issue with any nationality as long as they are pulling their weight. In the same way they don't like a Romanian who begs for a living, or a coloured lady with 6 kids in the welfare queue they will also look down on some Irish layabout smoking butts on a corner waiting for the bookies to open.

It's non-contributors to society that rile people up.

What was trying to say (and i probably wasnt all that clear) in terms of interaction, i meant that foreigners are new to this country so very few of us would have friends, neighbours, people we went to school with who were of a different race so we dont have that long term integration with them like you would have in the US or UK and that a lot of people's views are of foreigners are immature unlike in the US or UK who would have a more mutured view on race.

The main point of my OP was to ask in 10-15 years when we are more integrated with the immigrants who have arrived and sons and daughters who were born here in the past 30 years, how will we have handled race relations and where will be?

Will be still be complaing about the black irish people using the race card in 15 years? Even tho black people dont have the history of black people in the US. Will the first Irish MOBO awards cause uproar?

I feel we have a good opportunity to handle the different nationalities and races that have come to Ireland recently and integrate them well into our society unlike the US for example but sometimes I am a bit worried about the country when i see threads debating the viabilty of mix race mariages, reverse racism and black taxi drivers, again this maybe just people's immaturity to new races and it will be fizzled out as time goes on but it may not be also.

Please note I'm not advocating opening the doors to the country for every 3rd world person but handling the new people we have in our society now and i am aware racism and ignorance will always exist in some shape or form.

irish_bob

the MOBO awards is a silly arguement , the mobo awards are based around music which is traditonally dominated by black artists , r+b , urban , hip hop , soul music in general

apsalar

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Answer me this, if there was a MOWO awards would there be uproar??
If there was white history week would there be uproar??

U know there would!

The OP asked about race relations in Ireland! The Mobo awards are in the Uk, Black history month in the US. We live in neither of those countries and their history regards race relations and current day problems as such are complex and difficult to define. I fail to see how the development of race relations in say, the US as a result of Barack Obama's presidency have anything to do with those of present day Ireland.

asdasd

and that a lot of people's views are of foreigners are immature unlike in the US or UK who would have a more mutured view on race.

Neither the UK, or the US have mature views on race, or are succesful in integrating people. Think about the existence of Black and White in the US - at all. After 300 years. Ireland can be compared to the US in 300 years. I suspect that we will have no black population left - but most people will have black ancestory.

I fail to see how the development of race relations in say, the US as a result of Barack Obama's presidency have anything to do with those of present day Ireland.

The obsession with white, and black is an American thing though. If they had oppressed blue people, the OP would be starting a thread on whether we had matured to the same extent as the US with respect to blue people.

Fink Goddie

apsalar wrote: »

The OP asked about race relations in Ireland! The Mobo awards are in the Uk, Black history month in the US. We live in neither of those countries and their history regards race relations and current day problems as such are complex and difficult to define. I fail to see how the development of race relations in say, the US as a result of Barack Obama's presidency have anything to do with those of present day Ireland.

Debates expand and develop, just because the OP was talking about Ireland doesnt mean examples from around the world cant be mentioned.

Wicknight wrote: »

No one has told you not to. You have invented "uproar" so you can feel that if you did do it you would be oppressed. You can then claim a double standard exists.

How about you put on your Music of White Origin Award show and get back to me if you are fire bombed :rolleyes:

Dont be so naive!

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Dont be so naive!

Like I said the only groups who seem to go out of their way to specifically use the term "white" attached with events are white supremacists, mainly because "white culture" isn't a particularly good term as "white" culture" is far more varied than black culture in places like America and the UK.

These events are dismissed as racist, not because they have "white" in the title but because they are racist gatherings.

To extrapolate from a "White Power" match being dismissed as racist that it must be because they used the term "white" in their title, and therefore you couldn't put on a show that had "white" in the title without also being dismissed as being racist, is missing the point by a football field.

No one has any issue with white people celebrating what could be classified as "white" culture. Again when was the last time the CMA's were dismissed as being racist.

Your "Music of White Origin Award" show would only be dismissed as racist if it actually was racist, ie you were a skin head putting on an awards show about how great it is to be white.

Fink Goddie

Wicknight wrote: »

No one has any issue with white people celebrating what could be classified as "white" culture. Again when was the last time the CMA's were dismissed as being racist.

Again The country music awards doesnt discriminate in its title, its uses the genre of music not skin colour, this is why its not seen as racist.

Hazys

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Again The country music awards doesnt discriminate in its title, its uses the genre of music not skin colour, this is why its not seen as racist.

Can we drop the MOBO talk its going nowhere.

Zombrex

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Again The country music awards doesnt discriminate in its title, its uses the genre of music not skin colour, this is why its not seen as racist.

No it isn't. It is not seen as racist because the event is not racist (neither is the MOBOs)

Again, if you think the only reason that events such as a White Power Rally are seen as racist is because they have "white" in the title you completely missing the point.

People are not sitting around thinking that a "European-Origin Power Rally" by Nazi skin heads is ok but as soon as they stick "White" on the flyer they have crossed the racist line.

The CMA event would not suddenly become perceived racist because they change the name to Music of White Origin awards. People (in general) are not stupid, they know when an event is actually racist, and these White Power rallies and events popular in America and Europe are seen as racist because they are being put on by race hate groups

asdasd

People are not sitting around thinking that a "European-Origin Power Rally" by Nazi skin heads is ok

Thats an extreme case but European is more acceptable than white.

The thing to do is celebrate European culture, or a specific part of European culture, like german irish, british etc. Paddys day, OctoberFest etc. I am sure there is even a European cultue show on somewhere in the world, or America ( or even Europe).

But you have to use those words - German, Irish, ?/basque, English, Celtic, not White.

Thats because of the lunatics who have white shows. So yeah, I agree the term white has been sullied by racists.

Zombrex

asdasd wrote: »

Thats an extreme case but European is more acceptable than white.

Acceptable to whom? Who are these people who cry "racist" because someone has a totally not racist event that has "white" in the title. Has that ever actually happened?

The only events I can think of that were met with cries of racism that ever used the term "white" in their events are skin heads. It is hardly shocking that these are denounced as racist events.

asdasd wrote: »

But you have to use those words - German, Irish, ?/basque, English, Celtic, not White.

Says who exactly?

asdasd

Says who exactly?

The powers that be. I can see your point with regards to black as used. They should use Hip Hop etc.

That said there is some logic.

European Festival of Food - Black person from France serving French food. Non conspicuous.
White festival of Food - no Black person from France. Wouldnt make sense.

The term European is not racist, therefore, while white can be.