Tesco Policy of Anti-Jedi-ism

Elliemental

Just reading about this Guy, a `Jedi Knight`. He says his hood is just as important as a Muslim veil. I mean, OK, its` kinda funny that there`s a bunch of saddos` out there styling themselves after fictional characters, and claiming that they`re some sort of religion. But to them compare themselves to a real religion, and demand equal respect? What do you all think?
(NB this guy`s also on a talk show atm claiming his hoods as important as the muslim veil!)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/18/jedi-religion-tesco-hood-jones

damnyanks

Maybe George Lucas came to the planet and wrote the history of the jedi to make ends meat.

Therefore I agree

Poor Uncle Tom

and it begins.......

DeVore

Its no more ridiculous then any other "imaginary friend club".

I wonder if they will force muslim women to remove their "hoodies"... I'm thinking not. (nor should they, but they should treat all equally).

DeV.

Jicked

DeVore wrote: »

Its no more ridiculous then any other "imaginary friend club".

Actually, it is more ridiculous.

Bloody nerds.

Mmcd

Elliemental wrote: »

But to them compare themselves to a real religion

I challenge you to find any proof that either of those religions are more real than the other!

ejmaztec

DeVore wrote: »

Its no more ridiculous then any other "imaginary friend club".

I wonder if they will force muslim women to remove their "hoodies"... I'm thinking not. (nor should they, but they should treat all equally).

DeV.

Imaginary friends never get thrown out of shops, because no-one knows what they're wearing. That's my experience anway.:o

Elliemental

Mmcd wrote: »

I challenge you to find any proof that either of those religions are more real than the other!

Well yes, I understand that as an atheist myself, but Jedi-ism is clearly based on the fictional works of George Lucas (erm..I think. I`m not too clued up on sci-fi and Star Wars stuff). Its not quite so simple with more established faiths.

DeVore

OP: What is the criteria to call a religion "real"?? Is scientology real?

DeV.

Elliemental

DeVore wrote: »

OP: What is the criteria to call a religion "real"?? Is scientology real?

DeV.

I`m no theologian, but I`d begin by not basing that `religion` entirely on a Hollywood film.

MagicMarker

''Jediology'' is no more ridiculous than Christianity or any other form of religion tbh.

Dord

Elliemental wrote: »

I`m no theologian, but I`d begin by not basing that `religion` entirely on a Hollywood film.

Not much different than someone basing one on a book of fiction.

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/definition-of-religion-faq.htm

What is the definition of religion?

The definition of religion is not easy to find. There are many interpretations of what defines a religion but not one that can be said to be the most accurate.

Some of them are:

* A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.
* An institution to express belief in a divine power.
* A belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the practices and institutions associated with such belief.
* The sum total of answers given to explain humankind’s relationship with the universe.

Where does jedi fit into this? is it any different than any other religion, for some, going to the bookies could fit into some of these definitions.

/strokes beard thoughtfully.

Jicked

DeVore wrote: »

OP: What is the criteria to call a religion "real"?? Is scientology real?

DeV.

Well if it was to be decided in a Court of law (which may be deciding if an org, perhaps one such as Scientology, is a cult or sect for tax exemption purposes), they'd probably have regard to the criteria laid down by Brancato who after much research found that to be considered a religion the following should really be in place;

• Moral beliefs which are prima facie religious in nature
• A psychological commitment to those beliefs on the part of the members
• Tenets and rituals concerning those beliefs
• Moral practice manifest in the lives of the believers, resulting from their commitment
• Formal organisation or "society" of the believers which is non-secret and open to the public.

Which doesn't really apply to Jedi-ism, which is just a load of rather sad people who want to act as if real life was the internet, where they probably feel somewhat less cut off from normality. It was kinda funny when you'd hear people would put it down in a census, it's just plain sad if people are arguing that it should be on the same basis as Islam or Christianity. Yes I see what they're doing arguing that all religion is as made up as a Star Wars movie, but try to do it in a more clever, less cringeworthly nerdy way, eh?
(I'm an atheist, for what it's worth).

WindSock

People who are willing to die for their faiths. And to kill. Thats prolly what makes a religion more real over another. Prolly also alms and charity work. And recieving funding. I don't know what Jedi-ism entails but for a bunch of trouble making nerds who think they are being clever by poking fun at others real beliefs. Not that I agree with other religions and some of the things that are carried out in their names, btw. But religion is an important part to ones culture. If a persons culture has them wearing a great big towel on their head then let them to it. There are very few people here who's culture has them swinging around a lighted stick and saying 'vwoooom', over the age of 10. If there are then so be it. But there aren't. Just trouble making nerds.

Elliemental

Dord wrote: »

Not much different than someone basing one on a book of fiction.

The problem with the ancient superstitions is, that no one can prove that they`re fiction. Or they`ll argue (like a lot of people of faith that I know),that yes, the bible is written by man, and religion is created by man, but is was all inspired by God. And I can`t disprove the existence of God, any more than Richard Dawkins can. You can`t prove a negative.
Now, this Jedi-ism, is completely different in that it can, very easily, be disproved, simply because it`s lifted from a Hollywood film, that doesn`t even pretend to be inspired by a diety.

MagicMarker

Jicked wrote: »

Well if it was to be decided in a Court of law (which may be deciding if an org, perhaps one such as Scientology, is a cult or sect for tax exemption purposes), they'd probably have regard to the criteria laid down by Brancato who after much research found that to be considered a religion the following should really be in place;

• Moral beliefs which are prima facie religious in nature
• A psychological commitment to those beliefs on the part of the members
• Tenets and rituals concerning those beliefs
• Moral practice manifest in the lives of the believers, resulting from their commitment
• Formal organisation or "society" of the believers which is non-secret and open to the public.

Which doesn't really apply to Jedi-ism, which is just a load of rather sad people who want to act as if real life was the internet, where they probably feel somewhat less cut off from normality. It was kinda funny when you'd hear people would put it down in a census, it's just plain sad if people are arguing that it should be on the same basis as Islam or Christianity. Yes I see what they're doing arguing that all religion is as made up as a Star Wars movie, but try to do it in a more clever, less cringeworthly nerdy way, eh?
(I'm an atheist, for what it's worth).

Well, my simple dictionary says that...

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics.
• a particular system of faith and worship : the world's great religions.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance : consumerism is the new religion.

The Jedi Church appears to fit the bill.

MagicMarker

Elliemental wrote: »

The problem with the ancient superstitions is, that no one can prove that they`re fiction. Or they`ll argue (like a lot of people of faith that I know),that yes, the bible is written by man, and religion is created by man, but is was all inspired by God. And I can`t disprove the existence of God, any more than Richard Dawkins can. You can`t prove a negative.
Now, this Jedi-ism, is completely different in that it can, very easily, be disproved, simply because it`s lifted from a Hollywood film, that doesn`t even pretend to be inspired by a diety.

Fictional book written, religion created.

Fictional movie made, religion created.

What exactly is the difference?

Jicked

Well, my simple dictionary says that...

religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods : ideas about the relationship between science and religion.
• details of belief as taught or discussed : when the school first opened they taught only religion, Italian, and mathematics.
• a particular system of faith and worship : the world's great religions.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance : consumerism is the new religion.

The Jedi Church appears to fit the bill.
MagicMarker is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

Yes but that's a simple dictionary definition, as opposed to one that has is the result of much research by an academic, and which would probably be used to define a religion in a court of law. Which do you think takes precedence and is a better judge of what a religion is?

MagicMarker

Jicked wrote: »

Yes but that's a simple dictionary definition, as opposed to one that has is the result of much research by an academic, and which would probably be used to define a religion in a court of law. Which do you think takes precedence and is a better judge of what a religion is?

Well the answer is obvious.*But a court of law hasn't ruled that The Jedi Church is not a religion that I am aware of.

Jicked

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well the answer is obvious.*But a court of law hasn't ruled that The Jedi Church is not a religion that I am aware of.

:rolleyes:

It's not a religion, the others are religions. You might not agree with them, they may be based around bull****, but they are religions.

davyjose

Elliemental wrote: »

Just reading about this Guy, a `Jedi Knight`. He says his hood is just as important as a Muslim veil. I mean, OK, its` kinda funny that there`s a bunch of saddos` out there styling themselves after fictional characters, and claiming that they`re some sort of religion. But to them compare themselves to a real religion, and demand equal respect? What do you all think?
(NB this guy`s also on a talk show atm claiming his hoods as important as the muslim veil!)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/18/jedi-religion-tesco-hood-jones

At least he wasn't going for the ol' Chewbacca/three day beard look. I hear that offends some folk.

DeVore

Jicked wrote: »

Actually, it is more ridiculous.

Bloody nerds.

No, really... its really not!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9sJVJMiYM

DeV.

MagicMarker

Jicked wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's not a religion, the others are religions. You might not agree with them, they may be based around bull****, but they are religions.

Why are they religions, but this is not? Seriously, what is the difference?

MagicMarker

By the way, The Jedi Church realizes that Star Wars is fictional, you should really read about their doctrine. It's quite simple, they appear to be one of the nicer religions.

Elliemental

MagicMarker wrote: »

Fictional book written, religion created.

Fictional movie made, religion created.

What exactly is the difference?

Fictional book claims to be inspired by God. Belief system becomes on integral part of culture, and lifestyle.
Fictional film has never claimed to be anything but a fictional film.

Is that clear enough?

MagicMarker

Elliemental wrote: »

Fictional book claims to be inspired by God. Belief system becomes on integral part of culture, and lifestyle.
Fictional film has never claimed to be anything but a fictional film.

Is that clear enough?

A long lasting belief system doesn't provide credibility.
They don't claim their fictional film is anything more than a fictional film.

Is that clear enough?

Elliemental

MagicMarker wrote: »

A long lasting belief system doesn't provide credibility.
They don't claim their fictional film is anything more than a fictional film.

Is that clear enough?

Then why are they whinging that people don`t take them seriously, and saying that they`re just as important as any other faith? So no, they`re about as clear as mud.
And I`m sorry, but say what you like about the ancient superstitions, they`re nothing to the likes of you and I, but a lot of the population completely disagree. It is a huge part of thier culture, lifestyle and day to day lives.

Clare_Guy

these are not the nerds you are looking for...

DubTony

It can be confirmed as a real religion when Jones starts collecting "donations" from his followers. Half a million of them should provide a nice house, a few decent holidays every year and a couple of fancy cars. Sweet.

Elliemental

DubTony wrote: »

It can be confirmed as a real religion when Jones starts collecting "donations" from his followers. Half a million of them should provide a nice house, a few decent holidays every year and a couple of fancy cars. Sweet.

If Jones can pull that off, then fair play to him! Plenty have done it before, and if anyone`s dumb enough to fall for it, more fool them!

Captain Darling

Jedi-ism.:rolleyes:

Pastafarianism is the way to go.:D

MagicMarker

Elliemental wrote: »

Then why are they whinging that people don`t take them seriously, and saying that they`re just as important as any other faith? So no, they`re about as clear as mud.

Did you read my post? I don't know where you're getting this from.

Elliemental wrote: »

And I`m sorry, but say what you like about the ancient superstitions, they`re nothing to the likes of you and I, but a lot of the population completely disagree. It is a huge part of thier culture, lifestyle and day to day lives.

So basically it's a numbers game for you? The more people who believe and the more years they believe it for, the more we should respect their views?

I see no flaw in your logic. :rolleyes:

Do you consider Scientology to be a real religion?

Tipsy Mac

I think someone with no religous beliefs should have the same rights as someone with religious beliefs, Tesco should either have a policy of banning all head gear whether religious or not or else let anyone wear what they want. It's clear discrimination to allow someone wear a veil because of their religion and banning someone else from wearing similar clothing because they want to. The policy appears to be in place to prevent people disguising themselves so as not to be identifiable on CCTV, however by exempting people of certain religions to this policy it is showing bias towards them in that they don't believe someone of this religion is likely to rob their shop but anybody else not of this religion is.

DeVore

He should go back to them in a hijab and see what they say...

DeV.

Elliemental

MagicMarker wrote: »

Did you read my post? I don't know where you're getting this from.



So basically it's a numbers game for you? The more people who believe and the more years they believe it for, the more we should respect their views?

I see no flaw in your logic. :rolleyes:

Do you consider Scientology to be a real religion?

Scientology? Where did that one come from? Anyway, its` just a cult started by some kook by the name of L Ron Hubbard. Theres` plenty of cults out there. The only reason Scientology has gained any attention is because of the scary number of celebrities who endorse it. But again, it`s based losely on christian doctrine, rather than any outright, straight forward fictions. (don`t quote me, I`m no expert, this is merely my poor understanding of it).

You over-simplify what I said. It`s a lot more than numbers. It`s more to do with 2000 years of beliefe structure, culture, way of life and so on and so on. It doesn`t make it anymore real, ofcourse, but surely you can see why they get taken a little more seriously.

MagicMarker

Elliemental wrote: »

Scientology? Where did that one come from? Anyway, its` just a cult started by some kook by the name of L Ron Hubbard. Theres` plenty of cults out there. The only reason Scientology has gained any attention is because of the scary number of celebrities who endorse it. But again, it`s based losely on christian doctrine, rather than any outright, straight forward fictions. (don`t quote me, I`m no expert, this is merely my poor understanding of it).

You over-simplify what I said. It`s a lot more than numbers. It`s more to do with 2000 years of beliefe structure, culture, way of life and so on and so on. It doesn`t make it anymore real, ofcourse, but surely you can see why they get taken a little more seriously.

So in 2000 years yer man can happily shop in Tesco?

Scientology is a religion whether you like it or not, and it was a religion long before any celebrities were involved. L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer, sound familiar?

Jicked

MagicMarker wrote: »

A long lasting belief system doesn't provide credibility.
They don't claim their fictional film is anything more than a fictional film.

Is that clear enough?

Ugh, it's not a question of credibility or waiting 2000 years. A religion can and do exist. That's not to say they're correct, believable or not highly ridiculous, but they are religions. You define a religion by the following:

• Moral beliefs which are prima facie religious in nature
• A psychological commitment to those beliefs on the part of the members
• Tenets and rituals concerning those beliefs
• Moral practice manifest in the lives of the believers, resulting from their commitment
• Formal organisation or "society" of the believers which is non-secret and open to the public.

Jedi-ism doesn't have the above, Christianity does. That means Christianity is a religion. It might be wrong, it might be based on more nonsense than the Clone Wars, but it is still by definition, a "religion". Jedi-ism doesn't have any of the above, and so is not religion.

MagicMarker

Jicked wrote: »

Ugh, it's not a question of credibility or waiting 2000 years. A religion can and do exist. That's not to say they're correct, believable or not highly ridiculous, but they are religions. You define a religion by the following:

• Moral beliefs which are prima facie religious in nature
• A psychological commitment to those beliefs on the part of the members
• Tenets and rituals concerning those beliefs
• Moral practice manifest in the lives of the believers, resulting from their commitment
• Formal organisation or "society" of the believers which is non-secret and open to the public.

Jedi-ism doesn't have the above, Christianity does. That means Christianity is a religion. It might be wrong, it might be based on more nonsense than the Clone Wars, but it is still by definition, a "religion". Jedi-ism doesn't have any of the above, and so is not religion.

How do you know Jedi-ism doesn't have the above, are you a member?

Jicked

MagicMarker wrote: »

How do you know Jedi-ism doesn't have the above, are you a member?

No, but it would be pretty hard to prove the requisite psychological attachment to something that has clear evidence of being a work of fiction, as opposed to something like the Bible where the question over whether it's a work of fiction has some grey area about it, which could be capitalised on by someone who chooses to, and genuinely does believe.
I also don't know of any formal society for those practicing Jedi-ism, and also what way they practice it in their daily life, which would presumably require more than wearing a hood, shouting FAIL in real life situations and sweating too much.

That_Guy

Elliemental wrote: »

I`m no theologian, but I`d begin by not basing that `religion` entirely on a Hollywood film.

Not all of us have the Sound Of Music special special edition when the Von Trapp family go to the volcano and sing songs to greet our alien visitors.

MagicMarker

Jicked wrote: »

No, but it would be pretty hard to prove the requisite psychological attachment to something that has clear evidence of being a work of fiction, as opposed to something like the Bible where the question over whether it's a work of fiction has some grey area about it, which could be capitalised on by someone who chooses to, and genuinely does believe.

I've already said that the Jedi Church recognizes the movie as fiction.

http://www.jedichurch.org/jedi-doctrine.html

The force has always existed and always will.

Our faith in the force existed well before the fictional Star Wars movies brought popular recognition to the terminology and concepts that our members always innately held, but had difficultly describing in a shared forum.

Jicked wrote: »

I also don't know of any formal society for those practicing Jedi-ism, and also what way they practice it in their daily life, which would presumably require more than wearing a hood, shouting FAIL in real life situations and sweating too much.

So you've outlined set criteria to distinguish whether or not a particular movement can be classed as a religion and have therefore stated as fact that The Jedi Church is not a religion, yet you are not aware of its practices? Clever.

sheep-go-baa

I wonder if there's any relation to the religion of the posters and their beliefs about Jedism?

MagicMarker

sheep-go-baa wrote: »

I wonder if there's any relation to the religion of the posters and their beliefs about Jedism?

I'm sure my sig clears up any doubts with regards to my theological views.

Elliemental

MagicMarker wrote: »

So in 2000 years yer man can happily shop in Tesco?

Scientology is a religion whether you like it or not, and it was a religion long before any celebrities were involved. L. Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer, sound familiar?

You`re wildly over simplifying everything AGAIN!!! Theres` really no point in this, is there? You`re just not grasping the difference between ancient belief systems that`ve formed the fabric of virtually every society since the dawn of time itself, and a bunch of nerds who need to get a life, (I wonder, can you get one of those in Tesco these days)

MagicMarker

Elliemental wrote: »

You`re wildly over simplifying everything AGAIN!!! Theres` really no point in this, is there? You`re just not grasping the difference between ancient belief systems that`ve formed the fabric of virtually every society since the dawn of time itself, and a bunch of nerds who need to get a life, (I wonder, can you get one of those in Tesco these days)

You're right, it might have something to do with the fact that I don't believe there is a difference.

Oh, and the dawn of time happened long before Religion, a few billion years in fact.

Elliemental

That_Guy wrote: »

Not all of us have the Sound Of Music special special edition when the Von Trapp family go to the volcano and sing songs to greet our alien visitors.

Niether do I, but it sounds a hell of a lot better than the original

DoireNod

Religious bigots...

Boycott!

Elliemental

MagicMarker wrote: »

Oh, and the dawn of time happened long before Religion, a few billion years in fact.

And you`re not the only one capable of wild, over simplification.

Jicked

MagicMarker wrote: »

I've already said that the Jedi Church recognizes the movie as fiction.

http://www.jedichurch.org/jedi-doctrine.html





So you've outlined set criteria to distinguish whether or not a particular movement can be classed as a religion and have therefore stated as fact that The Jedi Church is not a religion, yet you are not aware of its practices? Clever.

Sigh, I'm just going to give up. Your point is that Jedi is probably as believable as Christianity which is great and very well may be true, but my point is that that doesn't make it a religion.

To be a religion it has to do X, Y and Z, which Jedi-ism doesn't do. That's not to say Christianity is any more correct than Jedi-ism, but for tax purposes one would be constitute the definition of a "religion" and the other would not. For instance, the requirement that there is a formal society probably requires something a little more than a secure area on a badly made website
"Certified Jedi members will gain access to advanced Jedi Church council features here."

You have a chip on your shoulder about Christianity, that's cool, I'm an atheist, so don't care that you do, but stop trying to argue a non-sensical point to in a bid to try to reiterate that you think organised religions have no foundation. They don't. But they're still religions, whether you want to believe in their beliefs or not is the question, not whether or not they exist as "religions".

powerzjim

nerds make me laugh, you know george lucas is laughing at this