Will the Yes side follow through on its claims?

kryogen

Just wanna get a poll going here, doing a little piece and would like to get some opinions, basically, the question is, the slogans such as Yes for recovery and Yes for jobs etc. were a big influence on alot of voters in how they voted, do you think these claims will be backed up? if so, how and if they are not upheld then what do people think should be done, eg, resignations, holding another referendum, absolutely nothing, etc.

any replies appreciated but please keep it civil, i would really like to get a good sample here for my research


argh! forgot to add a poll, so lets just make it a discussion thread please! all thoughts welcome


EDIT: i reckon i should clarify a couple of things so here is exactly what i want

1. Do you think the yes side will follow through on claims such as speedy economic recovery and jobs being created in a speedy fashion as was implied
2. If they fail in these areas what should happen then

amacachi

kryogen wrote: »

Just wanna get a poll going here, doing a little piece and would like to get some opinions, basically, the question is, the slogans such as Yes for recovery and Yes for jobs etc. were a big influence on alot of voters in how they voted, do you think these claims will be backed up? if so, how and if they are not upheld then what do people think should be done, eg, resignations, holding another referendum, absolutely nothing, etc.

any replies appreciated but please keep it civil, i would really like to get a good sample here for my research


argh! forgot to add a poll, so lets just make it a discussion thread please! all thoughts welcome


EDIT: i reckon i should clarify a couple of things so here is exactly what i want

1. Do you think the yes side will follow through on claims such as speedy economic recovery and jobs being created in a speedy fashion as was implied
2. If they fail in these areas what should happen then

Recovery will most likely come a little quicker thanks to the ratification, but inly when it's ratified. Of course it's impossible to judge how much quicker since the No vote lost.

What should happen? People can vote in the next general election for whoever they think can do better.

kryogen

amacachi wrote: »

Recovery will most likely come a little quicker thanks to the ratification, but inly when it's ratified. Of course it's impossible to judge how much quicker since the No vote lost.

What should happen? People can vote in the next general election for whoever they think can do better.

thanks for the reply, just one thing, how does changing the party in government affect the help we get fromt he EU to help the economy? the yes sides arguement is that by voting yes Europe will solve the economy problem in a timely fashion. this is not a national question really, more of a what should we do if they were wrong/lied?

amacachi

kryogen wrote: »

thanks for the reply, just one thing, how does changing the party in government affect the help we get fromt he EU to help the economy? the yes sides arguement is that by voting yes Europe will solve the economy problem in a timely fashion. this is not a national question really, more of a what should we do if they were wrong/lied?

Who is "they"? The effect on the economy isn't going to be an overnight job.

From the tone of your post I thought you meant what do we do if the government don't fix the economy. There's only so much money around and with this treaty ratified it should get shared around more quickly and fairly than it otherwise would have.

What can "we" do? Spend on irish goods, work hard if possible etc.

Rb

Why aren't you asking when the abortions, conscription and €1.84 minimum wage will be coming in?

They are claims of the consequences of a Yes vote afterall.

Handsome Bob

kryogen wrote: »

1. Do you think the yes side will follow through on claims such as speedy economic recovery and jobs being created in a speedy fashion as was implied

I personally think that those posters where the symptoms of a logical fallacy. Technically, logic would suggest that our chances of recovering from the recession are higher if we are at the centre of Europe rather than on the cusp of it.

However, there are no guarantees here, and no length of time can be applied to exactly when we come out of the recession. But you just know that when we do eventually come out of the recession, voting Yes to the Lisbon Treaty will get the props from your fickle average joe, even if it is years away.

Personally I think anyone who was influenced by any posters on either side were terribly misguided, because they are nothing more than tools in a spin campaign with little or no substance.

2. If they fail in these areas what should happen then

As I said, I think that we will eventually come out of this recession, before the next general election in 2012. It will of course have no direct relation to voting Yes to Lisbon, however Fianna Fail will undoubtedly launch the mother of all PR campaigns giving itself and Lisbon credit for the economic recovery. And you know what? The public will fall for it. :rolleyes:

EvilMonkey

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/6258132/Lisbon-Treaty-approval-could-save-Ireland-200m-a-year-in-debt-costs.html

Handsome Bob

That's me told so. :pac:

Greaney

I kinda think you're making a good point with this thread. I'm under the impression that folk voted because our ecomomy was having a (really) bad spell, personally, I think that makes for emotional and fearful voting. I think there will be unseen consequenses.

One pundit made a really good observation on why Donegal voted "no", albeit by a tiny margin, and the margins in the West of Ireland were slimmer than say Dublin. He said that (if you'll allow me to paraphrase)

"People in the West believe politicians have been speaking out both sides of their mouth, on the one hand they say that Europe is so good for country however, when policies are brought into practice that do not suit the economies of the west and rural areas, they shrug and say it's Europes fault. Our government are signing off on European legislation they don't know of the consequenses of, and cannot change".

Food for thought...:o

Noreen1

I think the people of Donegal voted "No", largely because:

1: Being marginalised, in many ways, for years, they have seen few of the benefits of the Celtic Tiger, and many of the disadvantages of being part of Europe. eg. Falling farm prices, increased bureaucracy, change in traditional family values, no significant increase in employment, apart from the construction sector, no railway, no University, resulting in consistently higher levels of unemployment than the rest of the country., etc.
These are some of the reasons, though I certainly would not presume to try to speak for the people of Donegal. When asked, they are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

2: A significant proportion of them have learned, through bitter experience. not to believe their politicians. Sad, but true.

ei.sdraob

Yes im currently researching RFID technologies

http://i36.tinypic.com/2ah85tt.jpg



anyways the EU handed over 500 million only a few days ago for greencolar jobs and renewable investment

alot more to come

ei.sdraob

Noreen1 wrote: »

I think the people of Donegal voted "No", largely because:

1: Being marginalised, in many ways, for years, they have seen few of the benefits of the Celtic Tiger, and many of the disadvantages of being part of Europe. eg. Falling farm prices, increased bureaucracy, change in traditional family values, no significant increase in employment, apart from the construction sector, no railway, no University, resulting in consistently higher levels of unemployment than the rest of the country., etc.
These are some of the reasons, though I certainly would not presume to try to speak for the people of Donegal. When asked, they are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves.

2: A significant proportion of them have learned, through bitter experience. not to believe their politicians. Sad, but true.

none of the above have anything to do with the treaty

cutting their Noses to spite the face

marginalised? some of them fishermen got very very rich, im always shocked at the amounts of german cars i see there

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyways the EU handed over 500 million only a few days ago for greencolar jobs and renewable investment

alot more to come

So you keep saying..

That investment had nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty, nor does it mean that by ratifying it here that 'alot more is to come'

If anything it suggests that Irelands involvement in Green energy initiatives with the EU would have been quite alright without the Treaty

Noreen1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes im currently researching RFID technologies

http://i36.tinypic.com/2ah85tt.jpg



anyways the EU handed over 500 million only a few days ago for greencolar jobs and renewable investment

alot more to come

The cynics among us could say that that was;

Prior to the referendum.

Necessary to the EU as part of its Energy Policy.

A loan, rather that a direct investment.

It depends on your viewpoint, I suppose.

Noreen

ei.sdraob

My name is URL wrote: »

So you keep saying..

That investment had nothing to do with the Lisbon Treaty, nor does it mean that by ratifying it here that 'alot more is to come'

If anything it suggests that Irelands involvement in Green energy initiatives with the EU would have been quite alright without the Treaty

no it just shows that EU keeps showing money at us, despite hwo badly we screwed up

and more will come

but of course i keep forgetting that some of the NO posters here would like nothing better than for this country to go back to emigration, potatoes, fishing and poverty, with the DeValera vision of an isolated and marginalised Ireland

ei.sdraob

Noreen1 wrote: »

The cynics among us could say that that was;

Prior to the referendum.

Necessary to the EU as part of its Energy Policy.

A loan, rather that a direct investment.

It depends on your viewpoint, I suppose.

Noreen

would you loan that much money at such low interest to a bankrupt nation?

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

no it just shows that EU keeps showing money at us, despite hwo badly we screwed up

and more will come

but of course i keep forgetting that some of the NO posters here would like nothing better than for this country to go back to emigration, potatoes, fishing and poverty, with the DeValera vision of an isolated and marginalised Ireland

Why do you incessantly bring up the negative things that some NO supporters may want to see happen..? Is it some sort of diversionary tactic that you've learned while posting here?

Anyway, what you're saying is pure speculation and has absolutely nothing to do with the ratification of the treaty

ei.sdraob

My name is URL wrote: »

Why do you incessantly bring up the negative things that some NO supporters may want to see happen..? Is it some sort of diversionary tactic that you've learned while posting here?

Anyway, what you're saying is pure speculation and has absolutely nothing to do with the ratification of the treaty

yes a lesson learned from the no campaigners here, thank you very much


well the treaty as you know is not fully ratified yet

so to ask where are the results of a treaty thats not in effect

is daft


i just further highlighted how EU membership continues to be of great benefit to this country, and yes people on your side want ireland to be isolated, live with it or make a better effort to distance yourself from the lunatics

My name is URL

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and yes people on your side want ireland to be isolated, live with it or make a better effort to distance yourself from the lunatics

And people on your side want a One World Government, why should I make any effort to become closer to that side? :rolleyes:

I think I have distanced myself from the lunatic fringes.. I have said that I disagree with most of the No campaign..

The world must seem very black and white to you

me_right_one

kryogen wrote: »

1. Do you think the yes side will follow through on claims such as speedy economic recovery and jobs being created in a speedy fashion as was implied
2. If they fail in these areas what should happen then

1. They Yes side didnt guarantee jobs or speedy economic recovery if Yes won, they just said it makes common sense that these things are more likley to happen with a Yes win. Its obvious!

2. There is no success / fail situation here. Things could get a lot worse, or things could improve. Lisbon will make things more likley to improve, but thats not to say its a certainty.

Anyway, who do you mean when you mention resignations? Who should resign if the economy doesnt pick up? The entire population of Yes advocaters? "Dear boss, I wish to hand in my notice and join the dole queue due to the fact that I hoped the Yes side would win, but the economy is still struggling"

me_right_one

My name is URL wrote: »

And people on your side want a One World Government, why should I make any effort to become closer to that side? :rolleyes:

I dont want a One World Govt. Why do you think Yes people want a OWG?

Fuhrer

My name is URL wrote: »

The world must seem very black and white to you

You're the one who thinks you can either be Isolated or a one world government.

ei.sdraob

to answer the OP

Will the Yes side follow through on its claims?

we wont know until the treaty is ratified in all countries and in effect + some timeperiod N

its a bit early to tell since the horse hasnt even crossed the starting line yet

My name is URL

me_right_one wrote: »

I dont want a One World Govt. Why do you think Yes people want a OWG?

Fuhrer wrote: »

You're the one who thinks you can either be Isolated or a one world government.

I don't!! I was demonstrating how ei.sdraob seeing everyone on the No side as isolationist is wrong.

EuskalHerria

Of course they will, Economic recovery and job creation starts 9 o'clock Monday morning:D

The backtracking started shortly after the Yes vote had won. This video shows it and i'm sure their will be more backtracking once the "legal guarantees" fall through aswell. 364 days of the year they are the incompetent suits in the Daíl but on Friday people were gullible enough to believe the lies, hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE

me_right_one

EuskalHerria wrote: »

Of course they will, Economic recovery and job creation starts 9 o'clock Monday morning:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sED3iApAvE

Lenihan is right. It wasnt presented as a job creation program. Its just normal, average, cop-on, that if Yes passes, jobs are MORE LIKLEY to happen than if we voted no. A program has dates, timetables, schedules etc., similar to the mocking sentence you have above. Nothing like that was put forward

Rb

Rabble rabble rabble, the sky is going to fall, lizard men will rule the earth, babies will abort themselves, THE MINIMUM WAGE rabble rabble rabble.

It seems the same, idiotic crap is being said as after the Nice referendum, yet none of it came through.

Keep rambling and claiming the world is going to end children, if nothing else it will be hilarious to point to after the next referendum concerning Europe.

Absurdum

Noreen1 wrote: »

I think the people of Donegal voted "No", largely because:


2: A significant proportion of them have learned, through bitter experience. not to believe their politicians. Sad, but true.

They believed Sinn Fein (and UKIP amongst others). Now that is sad but true.

My name is URL

Rb wrote: »

Keep rambling and claiming the world is going to end children, if nothing else it will be hilarious to point to after the next referendum concerning Europe.

wtf are you talking about? Has that got anything to do with this?

There's plenty of other threads which deal with the insane claims made by Coir etc

This one is about the barefaced attempt to mislead people, by our own government.

me_right_one

My name is URL wrote: »

wtf are you talking about? Has that got anything to do with this?

There's plenty of other threads which deal with the insane claims made by Coir etc

This one is about the barefaced attempt to mislead people, by our own government.

Please elaborate! How do you think they mislead you?

My name is URL

me_right_one wrote: »

Please elaborate! How do you think they mislead you?

They didn't mislead me, I voted No.

They did manage to mislead a sizable number of people who I've spoken to.. alot of whom say that they expected a direct positive impact of a Yes vote, regardless of there been no mention of it in the treaty..

and considering that the Yes side were seemingly all in favor of people making a decision based on what was in the treaty, it seems extremely hypocritical of them to prey on peoples economic situations to gain support

Fuhrer

My name is URL wrote: »

They didn't mislead me, I voted No.

They did manage to mislead a sizable number of people who I've spoken to.. alot of whom say that they expected a direct positive impact of a Yes vote, regardless of there been no mention of it in the treaty..

You dont think a more improved and streamlined deciscion making process is a direct postive impact of a yes vote?

My name is URL

Fuhrer wrote: »

You dont think a more improved and streamlined deciscion making process is a direct postive impact of a yes vote?

There is absolutely no evidence to say that Ireland will benefit economically from it.. let alone be dragged out of recession because of it.

Yes to Recovery = No to Ruin.. that is preying on the fears of people

PaulieD

Rb wrote: »

It seems the same, idiotic crap is being said as after the Nice referendum, yet none of it came through.

Wanna hear the Nice lies? Here ya go.


It is a disgraceful xenophobic myth that there will be a threat of a flood of migrant workers coming to Ireland. A wilful effort has been made by the National Platform and the No to Nice Campaign organisation to raise the spectre of a wave of immigrants coming to our shores. This is the worst and most unworthy objection I have heard to the Nice treaty; it is most "un-Irish" and speaks volumes about the level at which some are willing to conduct political debate. It is a shameful and distasteful piece of propaganda.
Xenophobic fears have been raised before. When Ireland was joining the EEC in 1973, the same National Platform warned of foreign skilled workers taking Irish jobs. False fears of mass movements of people at the time of previous enlargements were also raised, but, as we know from the Spanish and Portuguese enlargement, these fears did not materialise. There is no credible reason to believe enlargement will be accompanied by large movements of people. All the evidence points in the opposite direction.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. Roche); 12th September 2002

There is no reason to believe... that large numbers of workers will wish to come"
[Minister for Europe Dick Roche, I.T. Letters, 12/7/2002].

"Ireland will be in precisely the same position as all other member states on the question of free movement following any enlargement of the Community".
[Dick Roche, as reported in the Irish Times, September 2002].

"It is the view of the Irish Government and a number of other governments that this idea that there is going to be a huge influx of immigrants is just not supported. The evidence is just not there for it. They are not going to flood to the west. The same rules are going to apply in all 15 states. There is no evidence to suggest that the people of the Czech Republic or Poland are less anxious to stay in their home as we are.
[Dick Roche, transcript of interview with The Irish Catholic, 19/9/2002].

"It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland."
[Proinsias De Rossa, I.T. Letters, 28/8/2002].

"I estimate that fewer than 2,000 will choose our distant shores each year".
[P. De Rossa, I. T. Letters, 20/8/2002].

"There is no evidence there would be a problem with free movement of workers on accession".. (Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, Dail Eireann, 10/9/2002].

"Efforts have been made to foment fears that migrants from the new member states could flock to Ireland. This is not only unpleasant but plainly wrong."
[Brian Cowen, Sunday Business Post, 7/7/2000].

"Ireland is already benefiting from the skills and energy of workers from the applicant states, about 7,000 of whom received work permits last year. There is no basis whatever for expecting a huge upsurge in these numbers."
[Brian Cowen, Sunday Business Post, 7/7/2000].

"The second myth is that the Nice Treaty will mean mass immigration from the new EU member countries in Eastern Europe. This is probably the most odious of the myths propagated by some in the "No" campaign."
[Minister Willie O'Dea, Sunday Independent, Summer 2002].

Oh and here's another little nugget:

'Last week, ICTU general secretary Mr David Beggs said central and eastern European workers wanted to work in Germany and Austria, and not in Ireland.'

Irish Times 7 August 2002

me_right_one

My name is URL wrote: »

They didn't mislead me, I voted No.

They did manage to mislead a sizable number of people who I've spoken to.. alot of whom say that they expected a direct positive impact of a Yes vote, regardless of there been no mention of it in the treaty..

and considering that the Yes side were seemingly all in favor of people making a decision based on what was in the treaty, it seems extremely hypocritical of them to prey on peoples economic situations to gain support

Fair enough, you voted no, so elaborate on how you think they mislead those who voted Yes! Even if the probable economic kick-start doesnt happen, what exactly is in the treaty that you are so against?

Personally, no govt people ever tried to convince me of a "direct positive impact" from a yes result. I didnt see it on any posters either. I was fully aware of what was in the treaty before I voted, having read it start-to-finish before I made up my mind.

From what I'd read, I drew my own conclusions that less wastage in decision making, making the charter of human rights law, more transparency etc. were actually good things,and would naturally promote job growth, among other things, for Ireland. It just makes sense. Which is why, coir bullsh1t aside, I cannot understand why anybody would vote no! So enlighten me!

me_right_one

My name is URL wrote: »

There is absolutely no evidence to say that Ireland will benefit economically from it.. let alone be dragged out of recession because of it.

Yes to Recovery = No to Ruin.. that is preying on the fears of people

But no-one PROMISED an economic benefit; Its just more likley to happen with a Yes result. What TD said Yes to Recovery = No to Ruin..? And so what if they did, do you not think people can make up their own minds?

PaulieD

me_right_one wrote: »

But no-one PROMISED an economic benefit; Its just more likley to happen with a Yes result.

Yes for Jobs. Seems like a promise to me.

No backing down now, my boy. Your side made promises that they simply cannot cash.

me_right_one

PaulieD wrote: »

Yes for Jobs. Seems like a promise to me.

No backing down now, my boy. Your side made promises that they simply cannot cash.

If you take that as a promise, you must have your heart broken a lot.

My name is URL

me_right_one wrote: »

But no-one PROMISED an economic benefit; Its just more likley to happen with a Yes result. What TD said Yes to Recovery = No to Ruin..? And so what if they did, do you not think people can make up their own minds?

I'd like to think that people could make up their own minds, but the fact that we had to vote twice on this suggests that ones own decision is only acceptable when it's the right decision.

I don't know who produced the Ruin/Recover posters btw

Fuhrer

My name is URL wrote: »

There is absolutely no evidence to say that Ireland will benefit economically from it.. let alone be dragged out of recession because of it.

Yes to Recovery = No to Ruin.. that is preying on the fears of people

Really, there is no evidence at all?

Apart from the 500 million EU investment this week alone?

Apart from the evidence, there is no evidence?

Run_to_da_hills

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes im currently researching RFID technologies

http://i36.tinypic.com/2ah85tt.jpg



anyways the EU handed over 500 million only a few days ago for greencolar jobs and renewable investment

alot more to come

I wouldn't put a pass on it, implants have now got their justifying uses. :eek:

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSTRE58K4BZ20090921

My name is URL

Fuhrer wrote: »

Really, there is no evidence at all?

Apart from the 500 million EU investment this week alone?

Apart from the evidence, there is no evidence?

Do you have evidence to support the idea that Ireland would not have gotten that loan if the treaty of Lisbon did not exist?

ei.sdraob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I wouldn't put a pass on it, implants have now got their justifying uses. :eek:

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSTRE58K4BZ20090921

its ok ill make sure your the first one to be chipped

Fuhrer

My name is URL wrote: »

Do you have evidence to support the idea that Ireland would not have gotten that loan if the treaty of Lisbon did not exist?

Unfortunetly im unable to travel between parrallel worlds where opposite decisions were taken but seen as you are, maybe you can tell us all whats going to happen.

My name is URL

Fuhrer wrote: »

Unfortunetly im unable to travel between parrallel worlds where opposite decisions were taken but seen as you are, maybe you can tell us all whats going to happen.

I'm not claiming to know what would happen.

You're the ones throwing up that loan as a positive about the treaty been ratified here, even though it happened days before the poll.

PaulieD

me_right_one wrote: »

If you take that as a promise, you must have your heart broken a lot.

I didnt. Some of the Yes voters did.

ei.sdraob

PaulieD wrote: »

I didnt. Some of the Yes voters did.

[citation needed]

Fuhrer

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm not claiming to know what would happen.

You're the ones throwing up that loan as a positive about the treaty been ratified here, even though it happened days before the poll.

No, I was using the investment as an example of the continued benefit we get from membership in Europe and that we have just made the decision process for approving such investment that much easier, we are likely to get such investment in a much more timely and direct manner.

Heroditas

Fuhrer wrote: »

Really, there is no evidence at all?

Apart from the 500 million EU investment this week alone?

Apart from the evidence, there is no evidence?

This €500m is a LOAN from a European investment bank for Eirgrid and the ESB. It'll have to be paid back. It has absolutely nothing to do with EU membership or Lisbon.

me_right_one

My name is URL wrote: »

I'd like to think that people could make up their own minds, but the fact that we had to vote twice on this suggests that ones own decision is only acceptable when it's the right decision.

I don't know who produced the Ruin/Recover posters btw

Ok, so apart from the coir crap, the fact that some people are gullable enought to vote without reading the fcuking thing, and the wierd moral principle of "Oh well, I dont like the way the govt. do things, so I'm cutting my nose off to spite the faces of the entire Irish people", what exactly is there not to like about the Lisbon treaty?

me_right_one

PaulieD wrote: »

I didnt. Some of the Yes voters did.

http://arikia.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/facepalm1.jpg