Should we be ashamed for ignoring the irish who died in WWI?

aligator_am

I'm wondering if we should bow our heads in shame at the lack of honour and respect we have shown the Irish soldiers who died in WWI, also, the ones who survived it by all accounts were treated like lepers when they returned

The below text is from Marshal Foch, leader (AFAIK) of the allied forces in WWI:

"PARIS, FRIDAY, Nov. 9th, 1928

“THE Heroic Dead of Ireland have every right to the homage of the living for they proved in some of the heaviest fighting of the world war that the unconquerable spirit of the Irish race—the spirit that has placed them among the world’s greatest soldiers—still lives and is stronger than ever it was.

I had occasions to put to the test the valour of the Irishmen serving in France, and, whether they were Irishmen from the North or the South, or from one party or another, they did not fail me.

Some of the hardest fighting in the terrible days that followed the last offensive of the Germans fell to the Irishmen, and some of their splendid regiments had to endure ordeals that might justly have taxed to breaking-point the capacity of the finest troops in the world.

ON THE SOMME

Never once did the Irish fail me in those terrible days. On the Somme, in 1916, I saw the heroism of the Irishmen of the North and South, I arrived on the scene shortly after the death of that very gallant Irish gentleman, Major William Redmond. I saw Irishmen of the North and. the South forget their age-long differences, and fight side by side, giving their lives freely for the common cause.

In war there are times when the necessity for yielding up one’s life is the most urgent duty of the moment, and there were many such moments in our long drawn-out struggle. Those Irish heroes gave their lives freely, and, in honouring then I hope we shall not allow our grief to let us forgot our pride in the glorious heroism of these men.

They have left to those who come after a glorious heritage and an inspiration to duty that will live long after their names are forgotten. France will never forget her debt to the heroic Irish dead, and in the hearts of the French people to-day their memory lives as that of the memory of the heroes of old, preserved in the tales that the old people tell to their children and their children’s children.

A GERMAN TRIBUTE

I know of no better tribute to Irish valour than that paid after the armistice by one of the German High Command, whom I had known in happier days. I asked him if he could tell me when he had first noted the declining morale of his own troops, and he replied that it was after the picked troops under his command had had repeated experience of meeting the dauntless Irish troops who opposed them in the last great push that was expected to separate the British and French armies, and give the enemy their long-sought victory.

The Irishmen had endured such constant attacks that it was thought that they must be utterly demoralised, but always they seemed to find new energy with which to attack their assailants, and in the end the flower of the German Army withered and faded away as an effective force.

“THEY NEVER FAILED”

When the moment came for taking the offensive all along our line, it was these same worn Irish troops that we placed in the van, making call after call on their devotion, but never finding them fail us. In the critical days of the German offensive, when it was necessary that lives should be sacrificed by the thousand to slow down the rush of the enemy, in order that our harassed forces should have time to reform, it was on the Irish that we relied repeatedly to make these desperate stands, and we found them responding always.

Again and again, when the bravest were necessary to delay the enemy’s advance, it was the Irish who were ready and at all times the soldiers of Ireland fought with the rare courage and determination that has always characterised the race on the battlefield.

“WE SHALL NEVER FORGET”

Some of the flower of Irish chivalry rests in the cemeteries that have been reserved in France, and the French people will always have these reminders of the debt that France owes to Irish valour. We shall always see that the graves of these heroes from across the sea are lovingly tended, and we shall try to ensure that the generations that come after us shall never forget the heroic dead of Ireland.”

Quoted from the commemoration of the Battle of the Somme (pp 23-24) at the Department of the Taoiseach. "

4zn76tysfajdxp

Moved from After Hours.

Dudess

I do think it is absolutely shameful to shun survivors of something as staggeringly horrific as WWI... and not to honour its dead - some of whom were only boys. And all because of "treachery" - it was 90 years ago. And their reasons for joining the British army were not to "lick up to" the oppressor - there were much more varied and complex reasons than that.

At the same time though, I hate how it's used by some unionists to play the "See? Some decent, brave Irish people who had honour and nobility and bla bla bla" card.

R.Dub.Fusilier

we had this topic , more or less in the, ''Irish Men or British Soldiers'' thread

blinding

We should honour all Irish men and women that died in all wars.

McArmalite

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

we had this topic , more or less in the, ''Irish Men or British Soldiers'' thread

Yeah and we also had it on the The Brave Irish Men and Women who served during WW1 http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055651172 Ok, this has been moved from AH forum but FFS :rolleyes: 3 threads in the last month.

Firstly, isn't there a fine momument in Islandbridge to them, what the hell more do you want ?

And did it ever occur to you that those wearing british army uniforms were obviously considered the army of occupation ? By the end of WW1 thousands of Irish men ( including my Grandfather ) were still interned in prison with threats, harrassment and intimadation on going to their families and supporters outside. Jayus, surely our wee state must be the only one in the world where people are expected of honouring the army of occupation.

How in hell's name do you think the general public in Ireland felt towards the british forces after the Tans, the burning of Cork, Balbriggan, Bloody Sunday etc. If some eejits tried parading around say Cork on Armistice day in the 20's or 30's, undoubtedly the vast majority of the people of Cork would have strung them up considering the atrocity's that had been inflicted on them by those in the same uniform.

McArmalite

blinding wrote: »

We should honour all Irish men and women that died in all wars.

Should that include say, Irishmen who may have been invovled in say, shooting down people in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday ? Or for that matter those few Irish men who were in Waffen SS in WW2 ? Or those in the regiments of the British army putting down the Indian Rebellion of 1857 which would have given the Waffen SS a good run for their money any day and is known as the Devil's Wind in India ?

http://www.experiencefestival.com/indian_rebellion_of_1857_-_retaliation_--_the_devils_wind

bangersandmash

McArmalite wrote: »

Firstly, isn't there a fine momument in Islandbridge to them, what the hell more do you want ?

Sadly if everyone shared your very narrow definition of Irishness, that monument wouldn't exist.

Three threads, and each one hijacked by repugnant republicans.

Fratton Fred

http://www.rte.ie/laweb/ll/ll_t12_main.html

In some respects the amnesia which once characterised Irish memory of the Great War has been bookended by two plays, O'Casey's "The Silver Tassie" and "Observe the Sons of Ulster Marching Towards the Somme" by Frank McGuinness. The former, inter alia, highlighted the inconvenient truth of working class Irish participation in World War 1. The rapidly developing nationalist narrative of the late 1920s did not permit of any such recognition, hence the rejection of the play by Yeats and the Abbey Theatre. The play ran counter to the nation's foundation mythology. It acknowledged a phenomenon whose memory was required to be quietly erased from the Irish collective unconscious. So successful was this process that, a generation later we didn't even know that we didn't know. "We were never told" was the mantra of Frank McGuinness, when he came to write his drama about the slaughter of the men of the 36th Ulster Division on 1 July 1916 on the Somme. The play (premiered by a very different Abbey to the one which had rejected the Tassie) contributed enormously to the process of re-integrating Great War memory into the Irish psyche....

Myles Dungan

blinding

McArmalite wrote: »

Should that include say, Irishmen who may have been invovled in say, shooting down people in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday ? Or for that matter those few Irish men who were in Waffen SS in WW2 ? Or those in the regiments of the British army putting down the Indian Rebellion of 1857 which would have given the Waffen SS a good run for their money any day and is known as the Devil's Wind in India ?

http://www.experiencefestival.com/indian_rebellion_of_1857_-_retaliation_--_the_devils_wind

You are just getting picky now.

You go through them all and make a list

While your at it I will go and get pissed.

goldie fish

McArmalite wrote: »

Should that include say, Irishmen who may have been invovled in say, shooting down people in Croke Park on Bloody Sunday ? Or for that matter those few Irish men who were in Waffen SS in WW2 ? Or those in the regiments of the British army putting down the Indian Rebellion of 1857 which would have given the Waffen SS a good run for their money any day and is known as the Devil's Wind in India ?

In your blinkered big book of barstool history, did you ever hear of
(a) Willie Redmond
(b) Tom Barry
(c) Ned Broy
(d) Emmet Dalton
(e) Tom Kettle
(f) John Esmonde

etc.

aligator_am

Guys and Gals,

I didn't start this thread to cause ructions, was only trying to show (IMO) how the dead Irish of WWI are generally forgotten, someone said there is a fine memorial to them down in the park, yeah, there is, sadly it's surrounded by winos, junkies and scumbags, and most people don't know it's actually there, I've never seen a telly advert saying it's poppy day, let's all go to the park and remember those brave Irish men / women who gave their lives, even if it was a cause they didn't truly believe in, they were trying to feed their families, how can someone that does that be branded a traitor? The scum that call themselves republicans have a lot to answer for, and by that I mean the ones that hounded the poor feckers that actually managed to survive the great war, and then be branded traitors surely it's an act of a traitor to let your family starve whily ya sit on your high horse, sure if they starve to death then that's OK, only subserviant Catholics go to heaven...... all others will burn, according to the best fantasy book ever, the bible

R.Dub.Fusilier

it is a shame that the average joe soap does not even know that irish men died in the bloody trenches in WW1 . there is a fine park to remember them and a few plaques scattered around , scarcely enough , to remember them but there is nothing to stop us remembering them ourselves or spare a thought every now and then. i always spare a thought for sean tracey when i'm on talbot street and the lads in the GPO when i'm on o'connell street and the same for the irish lads in the trenches when the occasion arises .

FiSe

A bunch of flowers layed to the local 'war cross' in November could be a good start, perhaps?
After all, those names on the cross are the names of local families.

McArmalite

aligator_am wrote: »

Guys and Gals,

I didn't start this thread to cause ructions, was only trying to show (IMO) how the dead Irish of WWI are generally forgotten, someone said there is a fine memorial to them down in the park, yeah, there is, sadly it's surrounded by winos, junkies and scumbags, and most people don't know it's actually there, I've never seen a telly advert saying it's poppy day, let's all go to the park and remember those brave Irish men / women who gave their lives, even if it was a cause they didn't truly believe in, they were trying to feed their families, how can someone that does that be branded a traitor? The scum that call themselves republicans have a lot to answer for, and by that I mean the ones that hounded the poor feckers that actually managed to survive the great war, and then be branded traitors surely it's an act of a traitor to let your family starve whily ya sit on your high horse, sure if they starve to death then that's OK, only subserviant Catholics go to heaven...... all others will burn, according to the best fantasy book ever, the bible

aligator_am wrote: »

someone said there is a fine memorial to them down in the park, yeah, there is, sadly it's surrounded by winos, junkies and scumbags, and most people don't know it's actually there,

I take it by mentioning " in the park " you saying it's in the Phoneix Park. Well it's not in the Pheonix Park, it's in Islandbridge and not the Phoneix Park Which just goes to show how much he knows about it, though he lambasts everyone else that their not showing the right respect while he doesn't even know where it is . ( Exact same happen to arnhem44 ranting the same BS on the Irish Men or British Soldiers thread and didn't seem aware of it's existance !!!). Obviously you never been to it, I have, it's very well looked after by the groundsmen there, and it's certainly not " surrounded by winos, junkies and scumbags,"

I've never seen a telly advert saying it's poppy day, let's all go to the park and remember those brave Irish men / women who gave their lives, even if it was a cause they didn't truly believe in, they were trying to feed their families, how can someone that does that be branded a traitor? The scum that call themselves republicans have a lot to answer for, and by that I mean the ones that hounded the poor feckers that actually managed to survive the great war, and then be branded traitors surely it's an act of a traitor to let your family starve whily ya sit on your high horse, sure if they starve to death then that's OK, only subserviant Catholics go to heaven...... all others will burn, according to the best fantasy book ever, the bible

Listen, your heavy on the accusations there buddy, I myself have never been aware of it but you seem to think it was the order of the day with ex memebers of the british army been denounced at every street corner, pamphlet etc. I would have thought their was general sympathy for those fooled to the front by Redmond, the media and britain. Tom Barry doesn't mention any hassle he received on coming back that I am aware of, neither did Ernie O'Malley when his older brother was back from the front. Those who continued to support Redmondism and oppose SF were naturally of course denounced as they were political enemies - whether they had been in the british army or not - but I have yet to hear of former british soldiers who supported Ireland's independence been denounced regardless. Just as Redmondism denounced those who supported Sinn Fein, that's the nature of politics isn't it.

But since it was so common place maybe you could give us a few links and references in speeches by the leadership such as Micheal Collins, De Velera and Sinn Fein pamphlets and documents etc of denouncing those who had returned from the trenches regardless of their views on Irish freedom ?

arnhem44

I take it by mentioning " in the park " you saying it's in the Phoneix Park. Well it's not in the Pheonix Park, it's in Islandbridge and not the Phoneix Park Which just goes to show how much he knows about it, though he lambasts everyone else that their not showing the right respect while he doesn't even know where it is . ( Exact same happen to arnhem44 ranting the same BS on the Irish Men or British Soldiers thread and didn't seem aware of it's existance !!!). Obviously you never been to it, I have, it's very well looked after by the groundsmen there, and it's certainly not " surrounded by winos, junkies and scumbags,"

As usual McArmalite you come on here with more facts that are wrong,if anyone goes on with bull**** its yourself,stating that I've never been there does not mean I don't know its there and also it was in a different thread.The Mods should really keep you under control.FFS

Linus67

I think all Irish Governments since the foundation of the present State should be ashamed of themselves for dishonouring all Irishmen killed in WW1 by not having any memorials around the country.

There should be a memorial in every county in this country.

I would love to see memorials with the names of the dead Irishmen inscribed on it of all Irishmen killed in WW1 and also WW2. And lets not forget the Irish who died in the Crimea, Indian Mutiny and the Boer War.

FiSe

I think that there is a lot Celtic crosses around the villages and towns throughout the country with the names of local dead men.
They might not be as obvious or known or overshadowed by the 1921-22 stones, but they are around.

Linus67

Why do Republicans think that only IRA soldiers should be honoured and not the Irishmen who fought in WW1?

My grandfather fought in WW1 and when he came home he fought against the British in the Tan War and then against the Free State in the Civil War.

When he died his obituary stated that he was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers as well as the Old IRA.

goldie fish

Linus67 wrote: »

Why do Republicans think that only IRA soldiers should be honoured and not the Irishmen who fought in WW1?

My grandfather fought in WW1 and when he came home he fought against the British in the Tan War and then against the Free State in the Civil War.

When he died his obituary stated that he was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers as well as the Old IRA.

Careful now or McArmalite will accuse you of revisionism...;)

arnhem44

Linus67 wrote: »

I think all Irish Governments since the foundation of the present State should be ashamed of themselves for dishonouring all Irishmen killed in WW1 by not having any memorials around the country.

There should be a memorial in every county in this country.

I would love to see memorials with the names of the dead Irishmen inscribed on it of all Irishmen killed in WW1 and also WW2. And lets not forget the Irish who died in the Crimea, Indian Mutiny and the Boer War.

There is quite a few memorials around the country put up by local communities or by family members,if you check out a website called Irish war memorials it will give you a comprehinsve list of memorials both WW1 and Republican and lists casualties also.

Happy Monday

Anyone here ever worn a poppy to commemerate these young men?

johnny_doyle

Yes.

FiSe

Yes

McArmalite

I see my fan club have been busy since my last post :rolleyes::)

Linus67 wrote: »

I think all Irish Governments since the foundation of the present State should be ashamed of themselves for dishonouring all Irishmen killed in WW1 by not having any memorials around the country.

There should be a memorial in every county in this country.

Well if they had one in every village, town and parish around the country it still wouldn't be enough for you would it ?

I would love to see memorials with the names of the dead Irishmen inscribed on it of all Irishmen killed in WW1 and also WW2. And lets not forget the Irish who died in the Crimea, Indian Mutiny and the Boer War.

So we should honour the poor eejits who got killed in the fiasco that was the Crimean War, a colonial landgrab 1,000's of miles from Ireland that had nothing to do with us ? Or the gang rapists, mass murderers and looters in India putting down the Indian struggle for independence http://www.experiencefestival.com/indian_rebellion_of_1857_-_retaliation_--_the_devils_wind, that's something to be proud of now isn't it. Their is a memorial to those from Ireland in the british army in the Boer War :rolleyes: at Stephen's Green and is known as Traitors Gate by the vast majority of the good people of Dublin. Honouring an army that won the Boer War by murdering 1,000's of woman and children in concentration camps, well that says it all.

Doubtless we are in for a lecture on how men from Ireland in the brits taught the fuzzy wuzzys, Moari's or anyone else, a thing or too about white civilization with the aid of a trusty Martini Henry and some great british pluck, etc, etc.

Linus67

McArmalite wrote: »

I see my fan club have been busy since my last post :rolleyes::)


Well if they had one in every village, town and parish around the country it still wouldn't be enough for you would it ?



So we should honour the poor eejits who got killed in the fiasco that was the Crimean War, a colonial landgrab 1,000's of miles from Ireland that had nothing to do with us ? Or the gang rapists, mass murderers and looters in India putting down the Indian struggle for independence http://www.experiencefestival.com/indian_rebellion_of_1857_-_retaliation_--_the_devils_wind, that's something to be proud of now isn't it. Their is a memorial to those from Ireland in the british army in the Boer War :rolleyes: at Stephen's Green and is known as Traitors Gate by the vast majority of the good people of Dublin. Honouring an army that won the Boer War by murdering 1,000's of woman and children in concentration camps, well that says it all.

Doubtless we are in for a lecture on how men from Ireland in the brits taught the fuzzy wuzzys, Moari's or anyone else, a thing or too about white civilization with the aid of a trusty Martini Henry and some great british pluck, etc, etc.

:rolleyes: Spoken like a true Republican.

You sound like you hate your fellow countrymen.

I support Irishmen who fight with honour and I don't support traitorous cowards who hide behind a balaclava. And I have got nothing but contempt for their supporters who sing pathetic rebel songs and glorify people who spread their own excrement on walls like animals.

And I suppose that the Marxist Provisional IRA acted heroically when they blew up people and were too cowardly to look at their victims in the face before they murdered them.

But what else can we expect from a bunch of drug dealing Commies.

McArmalite

Linus67 wrote: »

:rolleyes: Spoken like a true Republican.

You sound like you hate your fellow countrymen.

I support Irishmen who fight with honour and I don't support traitorous cowards who hide behind a balaclava. And I have got nothing but contempt for their supporters who sing pathetic rebel songs and glorify people who spread their own excrement on walls like animals.

And I suppose that the Marxist Provisional IRA acted heroically when they blew up people and were too cowardly to look at their victims in the face before they murdered them.

But what else can we expect from a bunch of drug dealing Commies.

He forgot to mention baby eating as well :rolleyes::)

Did it ever occur to you that the Irishmen who returned from the front were regretful that they had been duped into servicing the greed of the Empire and wished to put the whole experience behind them ? Many of them had joined because of been duped by Redmond and the media that they were advancing Irish nationalism and fighting for the freedom of fellow small nations, others economic conscripts ( who wouldn't be endeared to the system that improvished them in the first place ) and others for adventure.

But as I said, if their was a WW1 memorial in every village, town and parish around the country it still wouldn't be enough for you would it ?

LordSutch

Yes, I always wear a poppy.

In the C of I they do remember the fallen Irish on Remembrance Sunday every year! people wear poppies in Church, a minutes silence is observed, the last post is played, & in in some parish churches the list of those lost (in that parish) from WWI & WWII is read out from the memorial plaque on the church wall. Strange thing is that Remembrance Sunday is not commerated in other churches. > never understood why?

FiSe

Business matter, competition...

McArmalite

Camelot wrote: »

Yes, I always wear a poppy.

In the C of I they do remember the fallen Irish on Remembrance Sunday every year! people wear poppies in Church, a minutes silence is observed, the last post is played, & in in some parish churches the list of those lost (in that parish) from WWI & WWII is read out from the memorial plaque on the church wall. Strange thing is that Remembrance Sunday is not commerated in other churches. > never understood why?

Since it's congergatation has been the victim of mass murder, ethnic cleansing and institutionalised discrimination imposed by the british state and it's armed forces, the Catholic Church are astute enough to realise that honouring these very same forces would rightfully not be very populiar with the vast majority of their congregation. It's too much associated with empire and a pompous celebration of imperialism.

LordSutch

McArmalite wrote: »

Since it's congergatation has been the victim of mass murder, ethnic cleansing and institutionalised discrimination imposed by the british state and it's armed forces, the Catholic Church are astute enough to realise that honouring these very same forces would rightfully not be very populiar with the vast majority of their congregation. It's too much associated with empire and a pompous celebration of imperialism.

Dear oh dear, you are bitter :rolleyes:

The point I was trying to make was that, although C of I churches mark Remembrance Sunday every year, RC Churches do not! inspite of the fact that many tens of thousands of 'their own catholic congregation' lost their lives in the Great War & WWII, this lack of recognition has always been puzzling to me.

McArmalite

Camelot wrote: »

Dear oh dear, you are bitter :rolleyes:

The point I was trying to make was that, although C of I churches mark Remembrance Sunday every year, RC Churches do not! inspite of the fact that many tens of thousands of 'their own catholic congregation' lost their lives in the Great War & WWII, this lack of recognition has always been puzzling to me.

Well their's an ecumenical service on Rememberance Day attended by the President, Taoiseach and Ambassadors from Britain, France, America, Australia and ( even Germany ? ) in St Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin, the Church of Ireland's National Cathedral. There is something similiar for the Irish army in the summer, don't know if the foreign ambassadors attend it, I'm sure some of the others can fill you in.

iceage

A guy walked into my place of work today wearing a red poppy. Naturally I commented on it to him and like myself and many others here this guys greatgrandfather fought and died in WWI (turns out he was from Kerry) and his Grandfather fought and survived WWII (he came from Kildare) This guy was English born and raised but he explained very quickly and very politely his reasons for wearing it. Out of respect for both his Irish greatgrandfather and Grandfather and all those that fought in both World Wars.

he went on to say that he couldn't understand the deal about the colour, he'd wear white or red, but the red was the link...poppy fields that grew on the battle fields of Europe.

MrMicra

aligator_am wrote: »

I've never seen a telly advert saying it's poppy day, let's all go to the park and remember those brave Irish men / women who gave their lives

They are commemorated on the 11th of July every year.

MrMicra

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

it is a shame that the average joe soap does not even know that irish men died in the bloody trenches in WW1 .

Do you genuinely believe that most Irish people don't know that Irish people died in the first world war.

bangersandmash

MrMicra wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that most Irish people don't know that Irish people died in the first world war.

I'm not sure that this information is as widespread as you believe. For instance, many people I've spoken to on this subject, regardless of their education, seem to automatically assume that anyone from this island who died in WWI was from Ulster.

FiSe

MrMicra wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that most Irish people don't know that Irish people died in the first world war.

Honestly, most of them couldn't care less.
We are laughing at American 'education', yet if you ask someone in this state a simple question like: who fought whom in WWI or WWII, most of them will not know. Well, maybe kids who are playing COD, but they will tell you Americans against Nazis.

Most Irish people even don't know what symbol is used as a military marking on Irish Air Corps aircraft.
Well, the truth is, that most of them will not know that there is such a thing as Irish Air Corps...

R.Dub.Fusilier

MrMicra wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that most Irish people don't know that Irish people died in the first world war.

other posters have answered this one already but i'll give you my opinion. yes i do believe it as it is , in the most part true. my wife didnt know her dads uncle fought in WW1 and was at Ypres. some of my family didnt know my grandfather was in the British Army and i'm sure a lot of posters here could tell you similar stories. it may be different in Kildare but in my experience it is true.

LordSutch

blinding wrote: »

We should honour all Irish men and women that died in all wars.

And we always do at this trime of the year! and more recently there is also an Irish remembrance day (in July I think)? but admittedly there is no National swell to remember (sadly), as there is say in the UK for example. Certainly the Armistice 11-11-11 is remembered in St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin, (attended by Mary McAleese), along with hundreds of Churches up & down the State either on the nearest Sunday, on on the 11th itself "to remember all the war dead".

Happy Monday

McArmalite wrote: »

Since it's congergatation has been the victim of mass murder, ethnic cleansing and institutionalised discrimination imposed by the british state and it's armed forces, the Catholic Church are astute enough to realise that honouring these very same forces would rightfully not be very populiar with the vast majority of their congregation. It's too much associated with empire and a pompous celebration of imperialism.

At the start let me say that I am a practising Catholic.

You should be careful in mentioning the Catholic Church in the same breadth as institutionalised abuse (letterfrack, artane etc) or mass murder and ethnic cleansing (crusades and the inquisition).

You should also remember that the Catholic Church was a supporter of the British government in Ireland and condemned the 1798 and 1916 risings.

FiSe

Sorry about a bit of interruption here Don't want to starting a new thread and as it's close to this topic....

Last night on Channel 4 was programme called 'Not Forgotten', basically about 'foreign' soldiers in the British army during the WWI. India, Jamaica, Rep. of Ireland, Canada.
The story of the soldiers was based on one particular man rather then talking in general terms.
Tom Kettle was used to represent Ireland and, yes, Francis Sheehy Skeffington was mentioned as well including his faith.

I think this documentary was very well done. Anyone have seen it?

blinding

FiSe wrote: »

Sorry about a bit of interruption here Don't want to starting a new thread and as it's close to this topic....

Last night on Channel 4 was programme called 'Not Forgotten', basically about 'foreign' soldiers in the British army during the WWI. India, Jamaica, Rep. of Ireland, Canada.
The story of the soldiers was based on one particular man rather then talking in general terms.
Tom Kettle was used to represent Ireland and, yes, Francis Sheehy Skeffington was mentioned as well including his faith.

I think this documentary was very well done. Anyone have seen it?

Yes I watched it.

I would have been happier if they had mentioned the numbers of Irish men from all over Ireland that fought in the first world war and numbers killed and injured.

It would also have been good if it was made clearer that deals that were struck with Irish leaders were reneged on (i.e. home rule)

These men and their sacrifices should not be forgotten.

Latchy

The the irish who died in WWI are not forgotten in uk and europe .They are remembered by various regemental and ex-servicemans associations and have being for may years

LordSutch

blinding wrote: »

It would also have been good if it was made clearer that deals that were struck with Irish leaders were reneged on (i.e. home rule).

But were those deals really 'renaged on'? I am not so sure that its that clear cut, with all that happened betwenn 1914-1918 in the Great War, any Home Rule bill would have been slow tracked for a few years until the dust had settled .................

Rainman1

I did a thesis on this period for my history MA and I was surprised at where a lot of the pressure came from for young men to join up in 1914, you have to remember that Ireland was still part of the UK at this time and therefore the only way to serve was with the British army, but a lot of the pressure, particularly in rural communities actually came from the Catholic church, who were agast at the steamrolling of Belgium by Germany, who they saw as another small Catholic country that deserved our support in their hour of need, rather than a misplaced patriotism towards the British Empire, altough that did figure in the minds of some who served. The majority of young men though, saw the whole thing as an adventure and a way to escape the drudgery of unemployment, particularly in Dublin where the lockout had caused misery for countless families in the city, none had any idea of what they were about to face, so in a way they were duped into signing up, but the struggle was really a clash of empires and the Great War was the catalyst that brought about an end to Empires and the sacrafices that were made in the trenches really did help to bring about a much fairer and democratic world that we all enjoy today, even if it is far from perfect, it is a world away from what our great grandparents had to endure in the time leading up to 1914, so should we do more to honour the Irish that served - absolutely.

Fratton Fred

blinding wrote: »

Yes I watched it.

I would have been happier if they had mentioned the numbers of Irish men from all over Ireland that fought in the first world war and numbers killed and injured.

It would also have been good if it was made clearer that deals that were struck with Irish leaders were reneged on (i.e. home rule)

These men and their sacrifices should not be forgotten.

if this is in reference to the Ian Hislop programme, then that would have been misplaced.

The programme set out to talk about individuals and their reason for joining up. I thought it was very well done.

I also thought the memorial to Thomas Kettle is/was pretty shameful as well.

McArmalite

Rainman1 wrote: »

I did a thesis on this period for my history MA and I was surprised at where a lot of the pressure came from for young men to join up in 1914, you have to remember that Ireland was still part of the UK at this time and therefore the only way to serve was with the British army, but a lot of the pressure, particularly in rural communities actually came from the Catholic church, who were agast at the steamrolling of Belgium by Germany, who they saw as another small Catholic country that deserved our support in their hour of need,

I roughly remember hearing how James Connolly on his way down from Belfast observing how the recruitemnt posters in Belfast were all about fighting for King and country, Empire etc but as he went further south onto Newry or wherever, the theme changed to " Join the Army and save Catholic Belgium ". Says it all doesn't it.

rather than a misplaced patriotism towards the British Empire, altough that did figure in the minds of some who served. The majority of young men though, saw the whole thing as an adventure and a way to escape the drudgery of unemployment, particularly in Dublin where the lockout had caused misery for countless families in the city, none had any idea of what they were about to face, so in a way they were duped into signing up,

Yes some joined up out of a sense of adventure but I'd say more joined up because of Redmond and Home Rule promises along with fighting for small countries etc.

but the struggle was really a clash of empires and the Great War was the catalyst that brought about an end to Empires and the sacrafices that were made in the trenches really did help to bring about a much fairer and democratic world that we all enjoy today, even if it is far from perfect, it is a world away from what our great grandparents had to endure in the time leading up to 1914.

" the Great War was the catalyst that brought about an end to Empires " No it didn't, for example the German colonies in Africa for instance were divided up between britain, France and Belgium, with britain obtaining by far the greater landmass of these colony's, thus gaining the ‘missing link’ in the chain of British possessions stretching from South Africa to Egypt (from Cape to Cairo as they boasted after the war ). Indeed much of the present conflicts and injustices in the middle east can be traced back to the policy's of the Imperial powers in WW1. Indeed a certain island we all know didn't get it's freedom despite all the promises and " the war for the freedom of small nations " etc

so should we do more to honour the Irish that served - absolutely

Look I'm not trying to do you down, but this has been stated before several times. As far as I'm concerned their is an impressive memorial in Islandbridge, and another fine one built in the tradition of a Round Tower near Ypres in Flanders, the President, Generals and ambassadors from America, Canada, France, britain ( and Germany ? ) attend an ecumenial service and laid wreaths etc in Rememberance. There are also many memorials dotted around the country, so ( A ) What is wrong with the present commeration ? ( B ) Well if your not happy with the present commeration, what would you like to see to " do more to honour the Irish that served " ?

Rainman1

McArmalite wrote: »

" the Great War was the catalyst that brought about an end to Empires "
No it didn't, the German colonies i9n Africa for instance were divided up between britain, France and Belgium, with Britain obtained by far the greater landmass of this colony, thus gaining the ‘missing link’ in the chain of British possessions stretching from South Africa to Egypt (from Cape to Cairo as tehy boasted after the war ).

I was thinking more along the lines of the socialist revolution that took place after the war, as in the way people began to view their "betters" in a different light after the catastrophe that was imposed on them during the Great War. It is my firm belief that this shift in thinking is what dislodged the cement that held empires together, the final shove coming after the Second World War when nations began to demand independence in return for the sacrafices made by their people. Ireland and Russia stood out as countries that forced this process by revolution, but had not the Great War taken place, I really don't think that we would have obtained full independence through a revolution or political means, Redmond, as leader of the Nationalist party before the Great War was very much in favour of a devolved Ireland, but within the British Empire, full independence was not even on the agenda, never mind a Republic, that is what I mean by the Great War being a catalyst for the events that followed, but it is purely a personal view on what might have happened, in reality none of us will ever be able to say for sure what would have happened to Ireland had the Great War not taken place, or if the Irish had not engaged in the fighting.

Fuinseog

Dudess wrote: »

I do think it is absolutely shameful to shun survivors of something as staggeringly horrific as WWI... and not to honour its dead - some of whom were only boys. And all because of "treachery" - it was 90 years ago. And their reasons for joining the British army were not to "lick up to" the oppressor - there were much more varied and complex reasons than that.

no, they also joined up for the sense of advaenture. ireland was not a hive of activity in WW1 or WW2. they could be described as mercenaries. if thye wanted to fight the HUn why not start at Buckingham palace?

Fuinseog

Dudess wrote: »

I do think it is absolutely shameful to shun survivors of something as staggeringly horrific as WWI... and not to honour its dead - some of whom were only boys. And all because of "treachery" - it was 90 years ago. And their reasons for joining the British army were not to "lick up to" the oppressor - there were much more varied and complex reasons than that.

At the same time though, I hate how it's used by some unionists to play the "See? Some decent, brave Irish people who had honour and nobility and bla bla bla" card.

should we not also honour our boys fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan with the USA? They are afterall fighting for our freedom.

Fuinseog

blinding wrote: »

We should honour all Irish men and women that died in all wars.

does that include bobby sands who died in the Long war?