STUDENT DAY OF ACTION

Rebecca4welfare

DAY OF STUDENT ACTION: RALLY, MARCH, PROTEST
STARTING 12:30 , WEDNESDAY, 7 OCTOBER 2009
IN THE UNIVERSITY QUAD
The UCC Students’ Union Executive, in conjunction with the CIT Students’ Union, the Union of Students Ireland (USI), and other Unions in the Munster Region, are planning and executing a day of action against the financial hardship incurred on students by the State and the University.
This is what we’re against:
* The reintroduction of third-level fees
* The mismanagement of the grants system
* The increase in the registration fee
* The budget cuts to Higher Education from the Minister for Finance and Minister for Education and Science
* The introduction of printing fees
* The introduction of conferring fees
* The lack of financial support for students in financial difficulty
* The “blatant profiteering” by the State and colleges off the student population
* The targeting of students to support the mismanaged public finances
As you can see, we have a lot to be upset about- let your voice be heard on 7 October! Make your voice be heard! More details to follow! The theme will be BLACK!
WEAR BLACK ON WEDNESDAY AND JOIN THE DAY OF ACTION!
Anyone who would like to get involved email fees@uccsu.ie

Ricky91t

Is this a riot too?:pac:

PhatPiggins

Are the conferring fees a definite?
Do you think everyone should get free third level regardless?
Should the printing be reduced or scrapped?
Whats wrong with the grants scheme?
Is it wrong that the Governement "target" a return from students?
Should there be cuts in everything but education?
Can I wear my black speedo's and throw eggs?

quoteunquote

Rebecca4welfare wrote: »

The theme will be BLACK!
WEAR BLACK ON WEDNESDAY AND JOIN THE DAY OF ACTION!

Play some Sisters of Mercy or the Cure and it'll be like a goth convention on the quad. :pac:

thebigcheese22

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Are the conferring fees a definite?

Pretty much.

Do you think everyone should get free third level regardless?

Those who pay for it should, the rich through a progressive tax system IMO. Atm we have a lose lose situation where the reg fee is so high, it should be scrapped altogether.

Should the printing be reduced or scrapped?

Imo it should be reduced. 1 c a page would suffice so long as it hits people in the pocket. Also the payment method should be changed as it is ridiculous that a student has to have a credit/debit card to print fuccing lecture notes.

Whats wrong with the grants scheme?

Its ridiculously under-funded.

Is it wrong that the Governement "target" a return from students?

No but that 'return' can be payed plus much more when graduates are working and paying PAYE.

Should there be cuts in everything but education?

IMO we should be increasing education funding during a recession. So much for the FF 'smart' economy though. FF are all talk and no walk.

Can I wear my black speedo's and throw eggs?

Probably

Aodan83

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Can I wear my black speedo's and throw eggs?

:eek:

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Those who pay for it should

If they're paying or it, then it isn't free education is it.:rolleyes: I assume you mean paying taxes.

adamd164

I don't oppose the introduction of printing fees. The gross abuse of the system that had been there was unsustainable.

8c is a bit much; maybe a reduction to ca. 5c per page would suffice, but I'd certainly be against scrapping fees for printing altogether.

At this stage, I'd also support the reintroduction of tuition fees for those with access to income over a certain threshold. As mentioned, the exponential registration fee increases are hitting those who can't afford it. And in reality, if they can't bring in fees, the reg will stay high or even increase further.

Still, I respect the right of those with a different view to protest, I just really hope this doesn't become an excuse for general idiocy around campus with people setting off fire alarms, etc. as happened last year.

thebigcheese22

Aodan83 wrote: »

:eek:


If they're paying or it, then it isn't free education is it.:rolleyes: I assume you mean paying taxes.

Yes, hence why I said afterwards

through a progressive tax system IMO

*facepalm*

ALincoln

To be honest, I think this is somewhat of a waste of time and resources.

When you consider the impact of last year's march, it appeared to be of little utility, almost nil. Garnering a brief slot in the miscellaneous items at the end of that day's news bulletins seems like a pretty poor return for the effort and cost put in.

Organising student marches just unleashes the idiots and gives the majority an excuse to knock off lectures whilst a bunch of earnest SU types listen to that year's vauntes "student speakers".

It gives the government a chance point to the student body and say what a rowdy bunch we are, while the actual issues go conveniently ignored.

Resources and enthusiasm should be expended in a more beneficial manner.

thebigcheese22

ALincoln wrote: »

To be honest, I think this is somewhat of a waste of time and resources.

When you consider the impact of last year's march, it appeared to be of little utility, almost nil. Garnering a brief slot in the miscellaneous items at the end of that day's news bulletins seems like a pretty poor return for the effort and cost put in.

Organising student marches just unleashes the idiots and gives the majority an excuse to knock off lectures whilst a bunch of earnest SU types listen to that year's vauntes "student speakers".

It gives the government a chance point to the student body and say what a rowdy bunch we are, while the actual issues go conveniently ignored.

Resources and enthusiasm should be expended in a more beneficial manner.

I agree somewhat but what else can they do? Writing a strongly-worded letter won't work when you're dealing with pig-headed determined people like Batt O Keefe!

bleg

Sweet!!! I knew I'd get a second wear out of my batman costume!!


Seriously though lads everybody is taking a hit. Students will have to take one too. It will mean cutting down on the nights out or whatever but you will get no sympathy from me or most people I'd say.

bleg

Fees for everybody or fees for nobody. If I was paying fees I'd be pretty pissed off knowing that only a tiny proportion of my colleagues in university were paying the same amount whilst the rest got off scot free. There are quite a lot of wasters in UCC (I have seen them 1st hand) and I would not be happy if they were getting a free ride through college.

Graduate tax sounds good to me thanks very much.

Mario007

well i'm very split on the issue of fees. i can see why they should be introduced. yet, when you look at it, students usually end up in high paid jobs when they graduate and already have to pay taxes and levies that almost go as high as 51% of the salary going to the state. so in that sense it is unfair. also letting just someone to pay for the fees is just plain stupid why should someone pay for college just because his/her parents are successful and most likely pay high taxes to the state anyway?
(you can see i'm very split on the issue)

photocopying fees are ok, maybe they could go down a little, but they serve their aim. i heard there was like 14 million pages printed off in ucc last year...thats just ridiculous.

grants aren't underfunded. they end at around 45 000 a year, it think...that seems reasonable enough to me...and the SU complaining that they didnt go up is just ridiculous i was afraid they might go down drastically, i mean it's recession time lads.

the minister has to make some cuts, its inevitable. but i can't see the point of some people complaining about going back to 2006 or 2007 levels...i mean those are still damn high levels. plus if i remember correctly education was the only department whose budget actually increased in the last budget?

anyway that the rant over:D thats why i wont support the march, though should be fun to watch:D

ALincoln

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

I agree somewhat but what else can they do? Writing a strongly-worded letter won't work when you're dealing with pig-headed determined people like Batt O Keefe!

Well protests have been pretty much a failure.

Student/ staff strikes have been tried in other countries with mixed results. It's unlikely however that any staff from UCC would ever countenance action such as a strike, so cross it off the list.

At least through letters an intelligent message can be conveyed. Lawyers' letters regarding the doctrine of legitimate expectation contributed substantially towards saving current students from fees.

samf

ALincoln wrote: »

To be honest, I think this is somewhat of a waste of time and resources.

When you consider the impact of last year's march, it appeared to be of little utility, almost nil. Garnering a brief slot in the miscellaneous items at the end of that day's news bulletins seems like a pretty poor return for the effort and cost put in.

Organising student marches just unleashes the idiots and gives the majority an excuse to knock off lectures whilst a bunch of earnest SU types listen to that year's vauntes "student speakers".

It gives the government a chance point to the student body and say what a rowdy bunch we are, while the actual issues go conveniently ignored.

So what, you think we should just sit around and accept the huge financial increases of late? Look at UCC this year, fee's brought in for Conferring & Printing aswell as a huge increase in registration fee, closures of computer labs, the University are using students to lighten its debts.

Fee's may not be an issue for many of you, but imagine how many people coundnt go to college if they had to pay fee's, think of large families you know with a lot of kids, imagine each child costing 30K+ to go through college and thats not even taking into account accomodation costs and the cost of living.

If some people want to sit back while the education of those around them is taken away then so be it, but for those that are sick of students facing the bill for everything, then join the march and let your voice be heard.

ALincoln wrote: »

Resources and enthusiasm should be expended in a more beneficial manner.

I'd love to hear your suggestions....

maglite

Can anyone explain why this is done during lecture hours?

TBH most of the people marching last time were idiots out for a day off.

samf

Well if a time was chosen when no one would have lectures, it would be in the evening, and how many protests do you see that start at 7pm? The point is to do it at peak time, to create the maximum amount of discruption to attract media attention.

bleg

Can anybody give me an example of "The “blatant profiteering” by the State and colleges off the student population"?

Or can anybody show me how students are being specifically targeted to support the mismanaged public finances? It seems to me as if there are cuts all across the board.


I think this protest is very immature and ill conceived. You do not have any public support. Protesting over having to pay for printing when UCC printed more than UCD & another university combined last year is absolutely ridiculous. Do you honestly expect any member of the public to stand by this demand?


PS. Is there going to be somebody with a sign saying "You've made us very angry!" This time out? It really was the coup de grace at the last protest.

Nova_era

The last one of these marches was brilliant, I'll definetly be hitting it.

I'd hope that whoever set off the alarms in the library on the last occasion would cop the **** on this time round though, whoever did that is a ****ing knob.

blankblank

Should be good ,,, will def be attending.
Slapping 1500 euros as a reg fee is ridiculous, especially to those who are genuinely having financial difficulties.
I am also against the grants system completely, its useless, not the sums of money they give out but the manner in which they do it. It takes an extremely long time before people even find out whether or not they qualify for a grant, during which time they may have to get loans etc and are essentailly spending money they dont have for books, food and all the basics. Ridiculous.

Redisle

Sure we have reason to be annoyed at fees etc..
But tbh marches like this can't really make a difference. It's not like we would be walking out of a critial job.. why would the government care if some college students skip a few lectures?? There will be a few pictures in the paper but tbh this will in no way effect the governments decisions..

Mario007

Redisle wrote: »

Sure we have reason to be annoyed at fees etc..
But tbh marches like this can't really make a difference. It's not like we would be walking out of a critial job.. why would the government care if some college students skip a few lectures?? There will be a few pictures in the paper but tbh this will in no way effect the governments decisions..

in fact it might have a completely opposite effect when people say, look they are getting free education for taxpayers money and are still ditching their lectures...why should we give em our money?

grenache

Marching? Nice sentiments but you're all wasting your time! G'way home to your mothers!

PhatPiggins

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my Q's bigcheese. Can rebecca not be bothered or are you the same person?

The thing with marching is that its been done to death by Students,Teachers, etc and with zero results. People are going to see students clogging up roads during working hours an think "I'm unemployed/taken a pay cut/barely making ends meet and here are this bunch of w&nkers with their free education out for a walk when they should be in lectures".

I dont see what it achieves. The Students union are paid a chunk of the registration fee to work on behalf of the student body. If lets all march to Washington street is their only soloution to every problem then we're fooked.

thebigcheese22

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my Q's bigcheese. Can rebecca not be bothered or are you the same person?

Nah I don't even know Rebecca! I'm just very passionate about the whole fees issue

The thing with marching is that its been done to death by Students,Teachers, etc and with zero results. People are going to see students clogging up roads during working hours an think "I'm unemployed/taken a pay cut/barely making ends meet and here are this bunch of w&nkers with their free education out for a walk when they should be in lectures".

Yeah I understand that but the thing is, its not even free. The reg fee is a joke at 1500 plus 150 capitation. Add on a couple of hundred for books, a couple of thousand for rent and more, and its clear that third-level is far from free. There will never be a perfect system but it has been shown that college graduates are shown to contribute far more in tax to the State than non-graduates, paying multiple times what third-level is worth. My favoured system would be the Finnish model, which granted includes high taxes, but absolutely excellent public services, including actual free third and fourth level education. I just couldn't see FF and the Greens (or FG for that matter) being competent enough to impose such a system.

I dont see what it achieves. The Students union are paid a chunk of the registration fee to work on behalf of the student body. If lets all march to Washington street is their only soloution to every problem then we're fooked.

I can see your frustration but the SU are kind of fucced if they do and fucced if they don't. Take no action and they would have been accused of not giving a toss about student's welfare and incomptent. I'd rather them doing something/anything than nothing. The problem is in Cork we don't have the Department of Education or Dail that we can march on and therefore the protests are probably less worthwhile. However I do think that we have to stand up as one and show that the Government's incompetence re education will not be tolerated by us. But thats just me


And regards the printing fees, the fees in UCC are now way above most other colleges. 5 c a page is an absolute disgrace and is raping students for a necessity. Fair enough 1 or 2 c would have sufficed, but as ever the college authorities are riding roughshod over student's concerns.

Another disgrace is the closing of the ORB computer labs for no apparant reason. The Booles are now absolutely packed and the queues are twice what they were last year. Someone has to tell the UCC fat cats that this cost-cutting is hurting students disproportionally.

And finally...

Micheal Murphy is the best paid President in the country, for the third biggest college - 270 grand.

For people who think students are complaining needlessly, just think about the above fact and let it sink in.

Rebecca4welfare

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Are the conferring fees a definite?
Do you think everyone should get free third level regardless?
Should the printing be reduced or scrapped?
Whats wrong with the grants scheme?

I think the issue is that third level is not "free". We still have to pay 1500 euro just to receive a student card, before we ever even see a lecturer or use a book. I do not trust this government (or any other) to introduce a fair, equitable system of fees that would ensure equal access to all who have the ability to attend higher level.


The printing fees system of payment and the prices themselves need to be re-evaluated - the system is a pain in the hole and we have not been convinced that the university is running it on a cost neutral basis.

The grants scheme is a shambles, if you're lucky enough to be in a county where they pay you the first installment before Christmas you'll know how dismal the payments are. The income levels are ridiculously low, and even though they increased slightly this year, in essence there was no change as they go on gross income levels - most people's net income has decreased this year because of pension levies etc

Every single loophole in the grants scheme (of which there are about 20, causing confusion every year) is exploited to prevent students getting money. There is no way for an under 23 year old to be assessed independently from their parents unless it is an EXTREME situation - HSE involvement, abuse etc, and even then it's like pulling teeth. The payments themselves are pathetic - jobseekers allowance is supposed to be the minimum that a person can live on, and the grant is less than 40% of that.

Students are still waiting (and will be waiting a while yet) to hear if they are going to be in receipt of a grant. This is particularly detrimental to first years who might not be able to pay the registration fee, so their student cards are withheld and they cannot access the library and sometimes classes if they need to swipe in and out of them.

There are HUGE issues with the grants system, issues that only become apparent when you run into problems with them. If you're a student from Cork city you could be waiting months even to get your FIRST installment from them.


In terms of cuts and government targeting - if you target education you cut the legs out from under your future. Our only hope as a nation going forward is a knowledge economy. If you bail out the bankers and mortgage the students you're gambling with your future.

This protest is only one way of fighting fees - it would be pointless if it was the only aspect of our campaign. We have been contacting, meeting, talking to, discussing, negotiating with and having debates with TDs, Councillors, ministers, university staff, other groups etc all summer long and will continue to do so. Now it's time for students themselves to show up and fight the fight also anyway they can.

Join the protest, contact your TD, make your voice heard.

There are 18,000 students in UCC, all of us are affected in some way by the cuts, fees and injustices in our system - whether you're a student with a disability who can't get a scribe in your class or you're an Arts student who can't find a computer to finish your essay on because the ORB open access labs are gone.

18,000 students - imagine the noise we can make, imagine the power we have if we just pull together!

I'm sorry if people feel I can't be bothered to answer, I didn't have access to the internet all weekend and I'm not ar egular poster on boards.ie, I just said I'd throw it up here to let you all know. I'm also fairly mental in the office at the moment with lots of other stuff besides this so I don't have much time on my hands unfortunately!

If you do want to get involved or help out, or if you have anymore questions you can contact our president on fees@uccsu.ie

Mario007

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Yeah I understand that but the thing is, its not even free. The reg fee is a joke at 1500 plus 150 capitation. Add on a couple of hundred for books, a couple of thousand for rent and more, and its clear that third-level is far from free. There will never be a perfect system but it has been shown that college graduates are shown to contribute far more in tax to the State than non-graduates, paying multiple times what third-level is worth. My favoured system would be the Finnish model, which granted includes high taxes, but absolutely excellent public services, including actual free third and fourth level education. I just couldn't see FF and the Greens (or FG for that matter) being competent enough to impose such a system..

and so you want the government to pay for your accomodation, travel, books, food, going out, beer etc? really don't be ridiculous. the more you get the government involved into what they're paying for you, the less freedom from the state you have. economic, social and personal freedom come hand in hand and to be honest i wouldn't want any government to take 60% of my wages just to give it to someone who will go to 5 lectures in the whole year and just party all night.

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

I can see your frustration but the SU are kind of fucced if they do and fucced if they don't. Take no action and they would have been accused of not giving a toss about student's welfare and incomptent. I'd rather them doing something/anything than nothing. The problem is in Cork we don't have the Department of Education or Dail that we can march on and therefore the protests are probably less worthwhile. However I do think that we have to stand up as one and show that the Government's incompetence re education will not be tolerated by us. But thats just me

i mean if you wanna march somewhere, how about Bat O'Keefes house or his office? county council is also a good option...you don't just have to go to the Dail or department...
show me the incompetence regarding education from the government. i mean there are many, but do illustrate it with one example, preferably about the third level education.

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

And regards the printing fees, the fees in UCC are now way above most other colleges. 5 c a page is an absolute disgrace and is raping students for a necessity. Fair enough 1 or 2 c would have sufficed, but as ever the college authorities are riding roughshod over student's concerns.

well students had it for free and they totally abused it, so i suppose we're getting what we wanted, even though i'm a first year and i never had the chance of free printing. but thats just life. it's only fair.

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Another disgrace is the closing of the ORB computer labs for no apparant reason. The Booles are now absolutely packed and the queues are twice what they were last year. Someone has to tell the UCC fat cats that this cost-cutting is hurting students disproportionally.

to be honest they're not really.
btw love the rhetoric about everyone who is trying to stay within their budget being a fat cats

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

And finally...

Micheal Murphy is the best paid President in the country, for the third biggest college - 270 grand.

For people who think students are complaining needlessly, just think about the above fact and let it sink in.

and the ucc lecturers are taking one unpaid week this year to stay within the budget, just think about that.
with regards to the president, if you give a reason why he doesn't deserve his salary then i'm willing to debate. right now, i think he's doing a great job at keeping the college going and maintaing its very high level. i certainly can't complain.

Rebecca4welfare wrote: »

I think the issue is that third level is not "free". We still have to pay 1500 euro just to receive a student card, before we ever even see a lecturer or use a book. I do not trust this government (or any other) to introduce a fair, equitable system of fees that would ensure equal access to all who have the ability to attend higher level.

wait a sec. isn't this what the SU wants? that the fees be paid be only those who can afford them? i mean the 1500 is payable only if the family income is above 50 000 i think. below that you get concessions...

Rebecca4welfare wrote: »

The printing fees system of payment and the prices themselves need to be re-evaluated - the system is a pain in the hole and we have not been convinced that the university is running it on a cost neutral basis.

obviously its not since the system has been abused big time in the past, they need to break even, not be in loss from the last years.

Rebecca4welfare wrote: »

The grants scheme is a shambles, if you're lucky enough to be in a county where they pay you the first installment before Christmas you'll know how dismal the payments are. The income levels are ridiculously low, and even though they increased slightly this year, in essence there was no change as they go on gross income levels - most people's net income has decreased this year because of pension levies etc

income levels are actually pretty high, if you think about it. the average salary is 37 000 in ireland and people getting 45 000 can still get some kind of a grant.plus the grant money actually stayed on the same level as last year, so thats damn good considering we've got recession on our hands.
i do agree with you on the point that it takes long. truth is there is a bill either pending or passed, not sure, all it needs is the anactment of the minister for a much faster system.

Rebecca4welfare wrote: »

In terms of cuts and government targeting - if you target education you cut the legs out from under your future. Our only hope as a nation going forward is a knowledge economy. If you bail out the bankers and mortgage the students you're gambling with your future.

education is the about the only sector who's spending has increased in the last budgets.
i'm not gonna answer the rhetoric about the bankers because that would lead us into a totally differnt discussion.

Rebecca4welfare wrote: »

This protest is only one way of fighting fees - it would be pointless if it was the only aspect of our campaign. We have been contacting, meeting, talking to, discussing, negotiating with and having debates with TDs, Councillors, ministers, university staff, other groups etc all summer long and will continue to do so. Now it's time for students themselves to show up and fight the fight also anyway they can..

if you are genuine about fighting, though, then try a debate rather than a march. get bat o keefe to come down, get someone from the FG, someone from Labour and someone from greens. and let students in so we can a huge debate over it. that way you might actually get more media attention and people might support you more. plus it'd help for the students to understand the issues better.

PhatPiggins

Very good post Mario. My only quib with arranging a debate with the politicals is that at the moment only the opposition parties are giving interviews and a lot of the time they are skirting the issues and using it as an opportunity to beat the political drum.

There is not a hope in hell that Batt O Keeffe would turn up so maybe a march and barricade of his office might bring the issue to a fore.

With regards the post about Micheal Murphy,who I do believe is over paid, he took a 12.5% paycut so at least he is leading by example.

Byron85

Mario007 wrote: »

wait a sec. isn't this what the SU wants? that the fees be paid be only those who can afford them? i mean the 1500 is payable only if the family income is above 50 000 i think. below that you get concessions...

Wrong. I'm an independent mature student whose income for the last year was under €11,000 euro. I had to pay the full registration fees and capitation fees which in total came to €1650. I had to take out a credit union loan as otherwise I wouldn't have been able to pay. I got no offer of a concession and the only reason I was able to get the money from the credit union was that I have a good credit rating with them from my previous loans.

grenache

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

Wrong. I'm an independent mature student whose income for the last year was under €11,000 euro. I had to pay the full registration fees and capitation fees which in total came to €1650. I had to take out a credit union loan as otherwise I wouldn't have been able to pay. I got no offer of a concession and the only reason I was able to get the money from the credit union was that I have a good credit rating with them from my previous loans.

If you're an independant mature candidate who has been living away from your parents for the previous two years, you are entitled to a Higher Education grant. I checked it out with Limerick Co Co and this is what they told me. I'm taking it you're living independently for less than 2 years.

captainspeckle

in response to mario007's post:

"and so you want the government to pay for your accomodation, travel, books, food, going out, beer etc? really don't be ridiculous. the more you get the government involved into what they're paying for you, the less freedom from the state you have. economic, social and personal freedom come hand in hand and to be honest i wouldn't want any government to take 60% of my wages just to give it to someone who will go to 5 lectures in the whole year and just party all night."

not what the original poster actually said.....


"i mean if you wanna march somewhere, how about Bat O'Keefes house or his office? county council is also a good option...you don't just have to go to the Dail or department...
show me the incompetence regarding education from the government. i mean there are many, but do illustrate it with one example, preferably about the third level education."


why? they have nothing to do with the introduction of fee's?


"well students had it for free and they totally abused it, so i suppose we're getting what we wanted, even though i'm a first year and i never had the chance of free printing. but thats just life. it's only fair."


how do you know that? you are in first year?



"to be honest they're not really.
btw love the rhetoric about everyone who is trying to stay within their budget being a fat cats
"and the ucc lecturers are taking one unpaid week this year to stay within the budget, just think about that.
with regards to the president, if you give a reason why he doesn't deserve his salary then i'm willing to debate. right now, i think he's doing a great job at keeping the college going and maintaing its very high level. i certainly can't complain."



you sure about that? i heard them suggesting this, but i am not sure if it has been implemented.


"wait a sec. isn't this what the SU wants? that the fees be paid be only those who can afford them? i mean the 1500 is payable only if the family income is above 50 000 i think. below that you get concessions..."


complete B**Locks... where are you getting all of this crap?


"obviously its not since the system has been abused big time in the past, they need to break even, not be in loss from the last years.
income levels are actually pretty high, if you think about it. the average salary is 37 000 in ireland and people getting 45 000 can still get some kind of a grant.plus the grant money actually stayed on the same level as last year, so thats damn good considering we've got recession on our hands.
i do agree with you on the point that it takes long. truth is there is a bill either pending or passed, not sure, all it needs is the anactment of the minister for a much faster system."


its not solely based on income, amount of children who are dependent in family, land, previous children in college, etc. this is all taken into account. my family definatley do not earn over this amount but i dont qualify for a grant because of "assests" my father posses. this is bull..



"education is the about the only sector who's spending has increased in the last budgets.
i'm not gonna answer the rhetoric about the bankers because that would lead us into a totally differnt discussion."


what? listened to the news lately?? teacher cuts EVERYWHERE.


"if you are genuine about fighting, though, then try a debate rather than a march. get bat o keefe to come down, get someone from the FG, someone from Labour and someone from greens. and let students in so we can a huge debate over it. that way you might actually get more media attention and people might support you more. plus it'd help for the students to understand the issues better."


beacase that will be so much more effective than a march. get real.

EDIT: sorry this is so un-tidy!

Mario007

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"and so you want the government to pay for your accomodation, travel, books, food, going out, beer etc? really don't be ridiculous. the more you get the government involved into what they're paying for you, the less freedom from the state you have. economic, social and personal freedom come hand in hand and to be honest i wouldn't want any government to take 60% of my wages just to give it to someone who will go to 5 lectures in the whole year and just party all night."

not what the original poster actually said.....

the poster reffered to college not being free because one has to pay for books, food, accomodation and college life. in which case there is an implied premise to his statement that these cost to him accumulate for college expenses and the rest of the post was about the government paying for the college expenses(i believe he mentioned the finish model). thus one can assume the poster wanted these to be paid out of taxpayers money.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"i mean if you wanna march somewhere, how about Bat O'Keefes house or his office? county council is also a good option...you don't just have to go to the Dail or department...
show me the incompetence regarding education from the government. i mean there are many, but do illustrate it with one example, preferably about the third level education."


why? they have nothing to do with the introduction of fee's?

county council- grant scheme. we complain that it takes them too long, well it's the county council and the city council that is to blame for it. plus the local government is an outstretched hand of the government.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"well students had it for free and they totally abused it, so i suppose we're getting what we wanted, even though i'm a first year and i never had the chance of free printing. but thats just life. it's only fair."

how do you know that? you are in first year?

i've read up on it here on on boards and have a few friends in second year. generally it is mantained that the system was grossly abused.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"to be honest they're not really.
btw love the rhetoric about everyone who is trying to stay within their budget being a fat cats
"and the ucc lecturers are taking one unpaid week this year to stay within the budget, just think about that.
with regards to the president, if you give a reason why he doesn't deserve his salary then i'm willing to debate. right now, i think he's doing a great job at keeping the college going and maintaing its very high level. i certainly can't complain."



you sure about that? i heard them suggesting this, but i am not sure if it has been implemented.

yeah i'm sure, i read it in the examiner during the summer. this was like back in july, i think.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"wait a sec. isn't this what the SU wants? that the fees be paid be only those who can afford them? i mean the 1500 is payable only if the family income is above 50 000 i think. below that you get concessions..."


complete B**Locks... where are you getting all of this crap?

look up the grant scheme. you will get the registration fee back, or a certain percentage of it back if your income is within certain tresholds. go to studentfinance.ie to look it up. and in fact i understand that once you are entitled to a grant say in first year, the college makes a presumption in second year that you'll be getting one too, and so you need only to pay the amount as prescribed by the scheme.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:


"obviously its not since the system has been abused big time in the past, they need to break even, not be in loss from the last years.
income levels are actually pretty high, if you think about it. the average salary is 37 000 in ireland and people getting 45 000 can still get some kind of a grant.plus the grant money actually stayed on the same level as last year, so thats damn good considering we've got recession on our hands.
i do agree with you on the point that it takes long. truth is there is a bill either pending or passed, not sure, all it needs is the anactment of the minister for a much faster system."


its not solely based on income, amount of children who are dependent in family, land, previous children in college, etc. this is all taken into account. my family definatley do not earn over this amount but i dont qualify for a grant because of "assests" my father posses. this is bull..

yes true, it's based on wealth rather than actual family cashflow, but i do not see a problem with that.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"education is the about the only sector who's spending has increased in the last budgets.
i'm not gonna answer the rhetoric about the bankers because that would lead us into a totally differnt discussion."


what? listened to the news lately?? teacher cuts EVERYWHERE.

not really. in my old secondary school they actually got an extra teacher. it kinda depends on how the principal wants to deal with the situation. plus the fact is in october the education budget was increased by 3.6%. I've also seen new schools being built around the place. So the situation is not as bleek as the news depict it.

captainspeckle wrote: »

in response to mario007's post:

"if you are genuine about fighting, though, then try a debate rather than a march. get bat o keefe to come down, get someone from the FG, someone from Labour and someone from greens. and let students in so we can a huge debate over it. that way you might actually get more media attention and people might support you more. plus it'd help for the students to understand the issues better."


beacase that will be so much more effective than a march. get real.

EDIT: sorry this is so un-tidy!

what will your march accomplish? lets all dress in black and scare old people from washington street who will see an army of almost emos shounting some slogans to be on tv for 2 mins? ya like that's gonna help...

Mario007

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Very good post Mario. My only quib with arranging a debate with the politicals is that at the moment only the opposition parties are giving interviews and a lot of the time they are skirting the issues and using it as an opportunity to beat the political drum.

There is not a hope in hell that Batt O Keeffe would turn up so maybe a march and barricade of his office might bring the issue to a fore.

With regards the post about Micheal Murphy,who I do believe is over paid, he took a 12.5% paycut so at least he is leading by example.

yes true Bat O Keeffe might not be exactly inclined to come down and speak to lots of students. But it's worht a try. And if not, then somoen from the junior ministers on the department would, I'm sure, be happy to come down and get a bit of a publicity.
It would also be important to get both a Labour and a FG person, not just one for the opposition because FG are thinking about fees being a possibility too.

and thanks:)

ALincoln

To be honest, I think it's a pretty poor lookout for this year's SU if the only plan which they can conceive of is to replicate last year's laborious and unsuccessful march. I'm quite disappointed that they think that trying to incite a popular protest is the best course of action they can take when it has evidently been ignored in the past.

I think the most crucial point it this; it is obvious that the majority of students don't want to see fees introduced. This has sort of been conclusively established in previous years. The SU should have moved beyond this point now-there is no need for a token restatement of condemnation-a more constructive plan now needs to be devised to deal with the situation, not just bring it to the attention of people to whom it is already old news.

Nova_era

It looks like the college is pretty much shutting down tomorrow at 1:30.

I can't wait, the last one of these was fantastic!

Jay P

I'm wholly against 3rd level fees due to the cost that already exists. 1500 plus transport, accommodation, food and books mounts up to a very high amount. I dislike the idea of being about €20,000 in debt before I even start earning a living.

Also, I remember it was announced in August that we'd get a notice saying we may have to pay fees when we registered for our courses. I got this notice about 3 weeks after I handed over €1600, about a minute before I got my student card. Anybody else see something wrong with this? Neither the college nor the governement made the effort to notify ME of this. Not cool.

deisedude

All this talk of debates with Batt O Keefe on here are fanciful in the extreme. If the student union tried to organise such an event i'd imagine they would be promptly told where to go. If you think otherwise you are deluded.

I cant believe people are trying to defend the grants system either, its a joke. I know plenty of people who are getting a grant who shouldnt be because of fiddling the books, witholding information etc. Then there is the other side of the spectrum where people should be entitled to a grant but aren't because of assets etc. Students from a farming background especially are screwed over because land is taken into account, so even if your parents income is low you will still have difficulty getting a grant

Rebecca4welfare

A few points:

- Anyone who has had any problems with the grants system (delays, loopholes used to shut them out of the system, being about 50 euro above the limit, being assessed as a mature dependent candidate despite being over 23 because you can't find a certain type of bill from three yaers ago that has a different address to your parents' etc etc) will know just how much of a shambles it is.

Everyday I have people walking into my office who are just being screwed over by a system supposedly designed to help them.
As well as that, and I'm not sure if I've mentioned this in my earlier post, Jobseeker's allowance is supposed to be the bare minimum that someone can survive on - the grant is less than 40% of that. It's an absolute pittance.

As well as that, with the reg fee, when you go into first year you're expected to pay up front the 1500 - regardless of whether you get a grant or not. The only way you can avoid paying it is if you can show proof of receipt of grant. I don't think anyone this year had that on time for registration - the backlog and delays are too long. This meant that a lot of student weren't able to fully register and get their student cards - they couldn't enter the library, the mardyke, sometimes classes if they had to swipe into them.


In terms of the protest being our strategy for fighting fees - it's simply one prong to our attack, as I've said before. We've been working all summer on the issue, contacting TDs, Senators, Councillors. We've been to the Dail, we've been to the constituency offices. Now it's time for students to get actively involved and out there.

Anyway, it's 8:18 and I have to get flyering.

The march is TODAY, FROM 12 ON MAIN CAMPUS.

See you there!

deRanged

fair play to the SUs and the students for a great turnout.

I have a whole blog post with pics and video.

two quick ones:

rebecca stirring up the crowd:


and the march heading to town:

ReacherCreature

deRanged wrote: »

rebecca stirring up the crowd:

Great pic.

Ricky91t

Have to say the CIT group was huge!Good turnout for UCC though,But i was amazed by the number of people from CIT and the noise :pac:

Amtmann

Does the SU still subscribe to Sky Digital for the lovely TVs in the common room and does it continue to hold daily screenings of Home and Away so that "students don't have to go home and miss lectures"?

turgon

Good to see the secondary school CIT kiddies come down for a bit of noise and racket, although they were well tethered by their overlords. Its good that they got a glimpse of what a real 3rd level institute is like. Only brief though - its back to the crèche for them tomorrow.

My position is that you pay for what services you get. This socialistic notion of Free Fees is so dumb headed and stupid that I expected more from the educated people of UCC. Do you really think that O'Keefe goes out to the money tree on the Dail garden to pluck 50 euro bills for the Universities> No, it comes from TAX which we ALL have to pay. So no ones getting anything for free.

At the moment my postman and my bin man pay for me to college through their tax. Thats yeer idea of equality. That those who dont go to college should have to pay for those who do. Thats real fair, isnt it?

Free fees encourages a system of recklessness. People go into lectures (if even) and tap at their phones all the time. And why not? Sure its all free, they arent out of pocket.

And this education being a Right? Should I also get a free masters? Free hDip? And a free PhD?? Multiple free PhDs?? Im mean if its a Right, who do the government think they are by making my pay for that Right, huh? I would like a response particularly to this issue.

And finally, this issue of the University abusing students for their money. Oh so the Uni provide an excellent service and you expect to get that for nothing? Big bad UCC for expecting something in return.


This post is dedicated to the Socialists of All Hues.

ReacherCreature

Furet wrote: »

Does the SU still subscribe to Sky Digital for the lovely TVs in the common room and does it continue to hold daily screenings of Home and Away so that "students don't have to go home and miss lectures"?

I assume they do.

samf

Furet wrote: »

Does the SU still subscribe to Sky Digital for the lovely TVs in the common room and does it continue to hold daily screenings of Home and Away so that "students don't have to go home and miss lectures"?

Whats your point or is that just an off topic question?

Nova_era

Ricky91t wrote: »

Have to say the CIT group was huge!Good turnout for UCC though,But i was amazed by the number of people from CIT and the noise :pac:

There would have been more UCC students, if we decided to skip lectures and go to a march like our neighbours. However, we're here for an education.

Those CIT students are pretty badly behaved, no? Throwing stuff at the start, chanting "UCC students can pay our fees", and in general just throwing punches (verbally).

And chanting CIT the whole time; if I was a CIT student, the last thing I'd be doing is telling people.

turgon

Nova_era wrote: »

Those CIT students are pretty badly behaved, no? Throwing stuff at the start, chanting "UCC students can pay our fees", and in general just throwing punches (verbally).

Its because CIT is nothing more than a creche where people get babyed.

I went the for a few weeks. ****hole.

rebel girl 15

I was in Patrick Street waiting for a bus and TBH some of the stuff going on wasn't showing students in a good light - the behaviour and stupid stuff people had on some posters as well. The shouting and roaring that went when drivers beeped a horn was a bit childish to say the least. Really took the seriousness out of the issue. Twas a bit of craic and time of lectures for most IMO.

Don't think many motorists were that happy either, students stepping out in front of cars and acting dangerously on the road - think some would have more sense. Last thing either SU would want is reports of people getting injured at one of these marches. Great idea in theory, but I think it just annoyed people more than make a statement. I heard that the aim of the march was to create as much hassle as possible - if that was the aim, it succeeded.

I'd love to know how many students in the march today actually understand what the fee debate is all about - fees aren't due to come in until September 2010, and it is even money that there will be a general election come the summer. Get a huge movement of change from the students to come out and vote for change - break away from the family thing of always voting for a certain person or party, no matter what. I honestly don't think this Government will survive when the Budget is given.

Best of luck to the SU members working for change. BTW - I'm against fees, I'm communting from home every day because I cannot afford to stay in Cork, I've started printing stuff at home and only do it in college if I urgently need the notes. Haven't got a grant, might get one this year due to change in circumstances, but if I don't, money will be tighter than ever. I'd be exempt from fees from the current plans to enforce them on this years Freshers when they enter 2nd year and continue downalong, but I've two younger siblings who will be caught for fees.

If fees do come in, it will return Ireland to an era of where the oldest goes to college, and the next sibling has to go out working, or the older person will end up paying for the next sibling to go to college. Best of luck to the SU members working for change - I really hope they succeed in achieving their aim

Ricky91t

turgon wrote: »

My position is that you pay for what services you get. This socialistic notion of Free Fees is so dumb headed and stupid that I expected more from the educated people of UCC. Do you really think that O'Keefe goes out to the money tree on the Dail garden to pluck 50 euro bills for the Universities> No, it comes from TAX which we ALL have to pay. So no ones getting anything for free.

At the moment my postman and my bin man pay for me to college through their tax. Thats yeer idea of equality. That those who dont go to college should have to pay for those who do. Thats real fair, isnt it?

Free fees encourages a system of recklessness. People go into lectures (if even) and tap at their phones all the time. And why not? Sure its all free, they arent out of pocket.

And this education being a Right? Should I also get a free masters? Free hDip? And a free PhD?? Multiple free PhDs?? Im mean if its a Right, who do the government think they are by making my pay for that Right, huh? I would like a response particularly to this issue.

And finally, this issue of the University abusing students for their money. Oh so the Uni provide an excellent service and you expect to get that for nothing? Big bad UCC for expecting something in return.


This post is dedicated to the Socialists of All Hues.

Only your postman and binman?

Not the doctor who's now 26 years old and earning a handy amount of money and got free fees?

I have to totally disagree with that statement,As nearly all of us will end up working in Ireland and paying tax,Be it a summer job every year of college or an actual job after it,We'll all end up covering our own fees through Tax..Yes,your postman and your binman are paying for your fees along with the rest of the tax paying people,But you could be paying their Kid's fees in years to come..

maglite

Again after my lecture I was wondering throught campus the place was full of rubbish left behind. Also at about 7:30 when I was leaving college to go to town all along the Washington St and out full of rubbish from the march.


Well done guys.

Any idea of numbers and a percentage of mindless idiots vs people who know what they are shouting about?

Ricky91t

maglite wrote: »

Again after my lecture I was wondering throught campus the place was full of rubbish left behind. Also at about 7:30 when I was leaving college to go to town all along the Washington St and out full of rubbish from the march.


Well done guys.

Any idea of numbers and a percentage of mindless idiots vs people who know what they are shouting about?

Just as much stuff is thrown on the streets after St.Patricks day,Do you complain about that to?

I think everybody knew what the protest was about,Implying people didn't know what the protest is quite idiotic.