How will history record the Lisbon Referendum?

MrMatisse

Will it be seen as the most important step to a federal europe or something else?

Scofflaw

Leading questions much? Something else.

amused,
Scofflaw

meditraitor

It will be no more than a footnote, Ireland voting yes will not even register in 10 years. The big changes are yet to happen.

seamus

History will record Lisbon as a lot of fuss and FUD over something mostly inconsequential.

MrMatisse

Different opinions in different parts of boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055696632

Run_to_da_hills

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Will it be seen as the most important step to a federal europe or something else?

History will only be repeating itself.

(I cannot show images as it could lead to banning.) :eek:

Rb

Well, if the EU continues to expand then there will be more reform treaties as the Union will have to change to accomodate the new members. So, like the other things the nay-sayers have kicked up a fuss over for nothing, it will fade into history and will only ever be referenced by political historians mapping the structural changes in the union.

A lot bigger things, such as the Euro, have happened and a lot bigger things will happen. We may as well embrace it and remain at the heart of it, as far as I'm concerned.

MrMatisse

Rb wrote: »

Well, if the EU continues to expand then there will be more reform treaties as the Union will have to change to accomodate the new members. So, like the other things the nay-sayers have kicked up a fuss over for nothing, it will fade into history and will only ever be referenced by political historians mapping the structural changes in the union.

A lot bigger things, such as the Euro, have happened and a lot bigger things will happen. We may as well embrace it and remain at the heart of it, as far as I'm concerned.

At the heart of Europe.

Not geographically or politically.

Politcal gombeenism. We have no influence over the eu now at all really.

A Primal Nut

The same as the Nice Treaty - completely forgotten about. Along with all the rediculous claims about how it would end Irish neutrality, etc.

Scofflaw

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Different opinions in different parts of boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055696632

Yup - over in Conspiracy Theories they think it's a conspiracy - although, admittedly, that thread has nothing to do with this topic.

cordially,
Scofflaw

MrMatisse

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The same as the Nice Treaty - completely forgotten about. Along with all the rediculous claims about how it would end Irish neutrality, etc.

Yep.

The american planes landing in shannon already do that.

Rb

If we vote No on Friday things could be different though, as we'll be the gobshites who shot down a necessary reformation treaty without any legitimate reason to do so.

PopeBuckfastXVI

The Referendum will be noted for it's campaigns of ignorance and irrelevance.

I actually think it could prove historically to be the last time there is this much campaigning allowed by law, well maybe hope.

It can't be allowed to continue:
Vote 'Yes' for this thing you want.
Vote 'No' for this thing you don't want.

When neither of those things are directly related to the treaty.

Run_to_da_hills

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No on Friday things could be different though, as we'll be the gobshites who shot down a necessary reformation treaty without any legitimate reason to do so.

Gobsh*ites in the eyes of the minority of Europe's 500 million that didn't even want to have the treaty in the first place. :rolleyes:

Davidius

Realistically, it'll be barely mentioned at all and most people will forget about it. It's a very over-hyped treaty.

MrMatisse

Rb wrote: »

If we vote No on Friday things could be different though, as we'll be the gobshites who shot down a necessary reformation treaty without any legitimate reason to do so.

Along with the British and the Czechs and whoever else that was never even asked.

MrMatisse

Scofflaw wrote: »

Leading questions much? Something else.

amused,
Scofflaw

Not that the yes side have not done this over the last few weeks.

meditraitor

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Along with the British and the Czechs and whoever else that was never even asked.

The mechanisms of Government in those countries dont require the population to vote. They have government to decide such matters and these government were elected by the people to do such things .....

So in effect the people who were ELECTED to decide matters like this are making the decision. Like it or not this is how they do it and have done it for a generation! It is a democratic process.....

MrMatisse

meditraitor wrote: »

The mechanisms of Government in those countries dont require the population to vote. They have government to decide such matters and these government were elected by the people to do such things .....

So in effect the people who were ELECTED to decide matters like this are making the decision. Like it or not this is how they do it and have done it for a generation! It is a democratic process.....

Yes apart from the democratically elected ones who are challenging it in the courts.

In the spirit of democracy poeple who dont want something shouldnt have it rammed down their throats.

RandomName2

How will history see the Lisbon Ref?

The people of Europe probably didn't like it but didn't do very much about it.

The Irish made a sort of awkward jab at vetoing it - but their confidence relied entirely on their disposable income and they were easily corralled by their political parties.

Of the three steps towards European federalisation Maastricht was the first, Constitution/Lisbon was the second and X was the third.

Europe returned to an early nineteenth century interpretation of governance.

However, the attempts to create European harmonization - the concept of a universal nationhood of Europe - failed to take hold. By the mid 21st century nationalist bodies started to emerge spontaneously (in a similar fashion to 1848). Unfortunately the capacity for pressure groups to reform the 'EU' was essentially negligible (and besides which apathy at the existing system damaged any grassroot enthusiasm to reform the suprastructure). nations start seceding from the union in isolationist moves. If the EU is militaristic enough it might invade these provinces (Warsaw Pact style) or will otherwise gradually collapse.

Hopefully this prediction wont come true.

But I immediately predict 56% yes on friday.

meditraitor

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Yes apart from the democratically elected ones who are challenging it in the courts..

They are intitled to do this because in a free democratic country every decision can be challenged. The lisbon treaty will not change this

Really-Stressed wrote: »

In the spirit of democracy poeple who dont want something shouldnt have it rammed down their throats.

You cant please all the people all the time, trying to get a balance between what is best for the majority and not marginalising a minority is not so easy.

And on that point I have not seen a single post from the NO side that explains to me how Europe/EU membership has made things worse for the countries involved.
I have only seen a lot of nonsense about what Europe might do, the basis for these fantasies has been slapped down time and again on this forum not through scaremongering but good honest debate based on facts.

If you have no basis for your fears but ignorance it is only your own fault if you get slapped down time and again.

cornbb

If it gets passed, it will be quickly forgotten in the public consciousness and will become a footnote in the timeline in the history of the EU. People don't notice when things don't break.

If it does not pass, it will be remembered as a stumbling-block in the progress of the EU, and a failure of democracy. The EU will question whether Ireland will ever allow a treaty to be ratified again and Ireland will need to re-evaluate how EU treaties are dealt with. It will mark a turning point for Ireland's image in the rest of the world from a pro-EU country to a Euroskeptic country.

marco_polo

As per usual, Chicken Little will once again be both bemused and disappointed when the sky does not in fact fall in.

turgon

I will remember the Lisbon Treaty Referendum Campaign in a poor light.

I will remember flying into Cork Airport in early September after a month away and seeing the posters that would define the tactics of the No campaign:

"€1.84 Minimum Wage after Lisbon?"
"95% Of Europeans Would Vote No"
"Milked Dry! €200 Billion lost in fisheries"
"New Voting Rights - Germany 17%, Ireland 0.8%"

I will remember the blatant ignorance that the No side portrayed and played on. I will remember how Coir, Sinn Fein, Libertas, Socialist Party, Eirigi and others used every sheet of paper and radio second at their grasp to spread lies, out of context quotes and misinformation to further their respective hidden agendas.

I will remember the Lisbon Campaign as the time I personally lost all hope in direct democracy. The campaign was a sham with the last thing being discussed was the thing we were voting on - The Treaty of Lisbon.

I will personally remember the fight put up by Generation Yes on their Facebook page that was based solely on correctly quoting the Treaty and the Law. And I will never forget how the No side, confronted with such a truthful organization, could not fight what they were saying, but could only accuse them of being a FF and Green front. I will never forget this.

And finally, I will never forget that to ever support Sinn Fein, Libertas or Coir - these ironic defenders of "freedom" - would only to be supporting ignorance, lies and deceit. I will never - never - look upon any of these three organizations in a neutral or positive light ever again. They had the opportune chance to lose my respect and they took it wholeheartedly.

RandomName2

marco_polo wrote: »

As per usual, Chicken Little will once again be both bemused and disappointed when the sky does not in fact fall in.

You mean like after the first no vote?

Furious-Dave

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Yes apart from the democratically elected ones who are challenging it in the courts.

In the spirit of democracy poeple who dont want something shouldnt have it rammed down their throats.

Children don't always want to eat their vegetables now do they? Though the parents know that the veg is good for them and make them eat it.
Is it worth risking the future of our country just so that the principles of democracy are upheld?

RandomName2

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Children don't always want to eat their vegetables now do they? Though the parents know that the veg is good for them and make them eat it.

Priceless!

The electorate are stupid children! Will to power! The strong man of Europe shall shepherd the general flock.

And do the parents actually look at the vegetables or do they close their eyes when they are buying their groceries (has Brian Cowan STILL not read the damn treaty?)

Do the children sacrifice lose a certain amount of power to their parents if they eat the vegetables.

Are they told that if they don't eat the vegetables they will be permanently impoverished?

Colpriz

How will history record the Lisbon Referendum?

Maybe as an increase in sales of Norwegian-english dictionaries in Ireland, as the Irish decide there is no point in living in a country that a government elected to represent them deny their vote (lisbon 1) and opt for being out of it all just like the Norwegians...

P. Breathnach

One thing to which we can look forward with glee:
- in a few years' time we may have another referendum on a further set of revisions to the EU treaties;
- Sinn Féin will oppose it, while representing themselves as pro-EU, just that this new treaty is in some way a step too far;
- they will say that the EU undir the Lisbon Treaty is perfectly satisfactory, and we should keep that model.

Furious-Dave

RandomName2 wrote: »

Priceless!

The electorate are stupid children! Will to power! The strong man of Europe shall shepherd the general flock.

And do the parents actually look at the vegetables or do they close their eyes when they are buying their groceries (has Brian Cowan STILL not read the damn treaty?)

Do the children sacrifice lose a certain amount of power to their parents if they eat the vegetables.

Are they told that if they don't eat the vegetables they will be permanently impoverished?

I don't recall ever implying that I think the electorate are stupid. The analogy of children eating vegetables fits fine IMO. Children don't know why the vegetables are good for them and may not like the taste, but it's got nothing to do with being stupid. And from what I've seen a lot of people still don't know what the treaty is really about and how it will benefit them. Are we being told that if we don't ratify Lisbon we will be permanently impoverished?
Edited: My dad was at a conference recently at the Institute of International and European Affairs, and in a speech Brendan Halligan said that if the negative consequences of rejecting the Lisbon Treaty do occur, it could be 20 years before Ireland recovers. But hey, at least we upheld the principles of democracy, and that's all that matters right?

Brian Cowen doesn't have to read treaties, though he probably should. He has advisers to do that and summarize it for him.

humanji

RandomName2 wrote: »

Priceless!

The electorate are stupid children! Will to power! The strong man of Europe shall shepherd the general flock.

And do the parents actually look at the vegetables or do they close their eyes when they are buying their groceries (has Brian Cowan STILL not read the damn treaty?)

Do the children sacrifice lose a certain amount of power to their parents if they eat the vegetables.

Are they told that if they don't eat the vegetables they will be permanently impoverished?

Are the parents and the shopkeeper out to get the children? Or is that just the overactive imaginations of some of the children?

I can't imagine the outcome of the referendom being anything other than a footnote to an article about Europe in Pepsi-Wiki (Wikipedia will be bought out in the future).

fligedlyflick

the yes voters can tell their grandchildren,
"i remember when north west province was called ireland and we had our own government, unfortunately i bought into the lies at the time about recession and job creation and the blank refusal by the yes parties to discuss the more sinister side of the treaty, i am ashamed for selling our sovereignty for 30 pieces of silver"

fligedlyflick

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The same as the Nice Treaty - completely forgotten about. Along with all the rediculous claims about how it would end Irish neutrality, etc.

and the ridiculous claims that no economic tourists would flock here leading to massive job displacement and overburdening an already burdened health service, or no claims that social welfare would be abused by eastern europeans that will never come here.

Sam Vimes

fligedlyflick wrote: »

and the ridiculous claims that no economic tourists would flock here leading to massive job displacement and overburdening an already burdened health service, or no claims that social welfare would be abused by eastern europeans that will never come here.

That was a deliberate decision by our government. It was not a requirement of the Nice treaty. But sure why concern ourselves with reality when the fantasy is so much more exciting and scary

smokingman

The TRUE legacy of the Lisbon treaty?

....

The mods on Boards.ie having to delete all the No side marketing teams new accounts after they abandon the 5 each that they set up pretending to be a "concerned citizen".

fligedlyflick

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That was a deliberate decision by our government. It was not a requirement of the Nice treaty. But sure why concern ourselves with reality when the fantasy is so much more exciting and scary

and strongly refuted dick roche and the rest of the fianna fail criminal liars when queried about it.
your reality seem to be one of blinkered seclusion where none of the nice treaty abominations affected you and the lisbon treaty is practically an invitation to a tea party

Sam Vimes

fligedlyflick wrote: »

and strongly refuted dick roche and the rest of the fianna fail criminal liars when queried about it.
your reality seem to be one of blinkered seclusion where none of the nice treaty abominations affected you and the lisbon treaty is practically an invitation to a tea party

Did you ever wonder why the poles only flocked to Ireland and the UK and not the rest of Europe?

It's because the Irish and UK governments could have chosen to require them to have work visas just like the rest of Europe did but they chose not to because they wanted cheap labour. your problem is with the Irish government, not with the Nice treaty and certainly not with Lisbon

fligedlyflick

Sam Vimes wrote: »

your problem is with the Irish government, not with the Nice treaty and certainly not with Lisbon

again, the yes side and their mysterious reasons why i voted no, not content with telling me i voted no the last time because of some abortion law they now feel the need to dictate why i'm voting no again????
of course i have a problem with the irish government, they are criminally inept from running this country, they have a history of lies and backtracking on issues and now we're supposed to trust them and their comical "legally binding guarentees", which carry no weight within a self amending eu constitution?
if their selling point of "yes for jobs" was'nt so ironic and blatantly nonsensical i would actually feel less hostility towards the treaty.
(couple that with the cowards failure to accept out last vote)

turgon

fligedlyflick wrote: »

comical "legally binding guarentees", which carry no weight within a self amending eu constitution

14 words to make everyone ignore you.

fligedlyflick

correction, 2 letters.
N and O

ei.sdraob

smokingman wrote: »

the No side marketing teams new accounts after they abandon the 5 each that they set up pretending to be a "concerned citizen".

let me fix that for you

the No side marketing teams new accounts after they abandon the 5 each that they set up pretending to be a "concerned citizen" of some other country

/

Sam Vimes

fligedlyflick wrote: »

again, the yes side and their mysterious reasons why i voted no, not content with telling me i voted no the last time because of some abortion law they now feel the need to dictate why i'm voting no again????

You are blaming the Nice treaty for something our government did

fligedlyflick wrote: »

of course i have a problem with the irish government, they are criminally inept from running this country, they have a history of lies and backtracking on issues and now we're supposed to trust them and their comical "legally binding guarentees", which carry no weight within a self amending eu constitution?

Would you please educate yourself? you've had two years ffs:

Is the Lisbon Treaty self-amending?

No, but it does introduce changes in the way in which the EU treaties can be amended.

Present position
At present, the process for amending the treaties is as follows: All the member states get together in what is called an Inter-Governmental Conference (IGC). This conference agrees proposals for changes to the Treaties. In order for these proposed changes to come into effect, they must be ratified by each member state in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. In Ireland’s case, that may or may not require a referendum. Whether or not a referendum is needed is mainly dependent on whether or not the changes involve a change to the essential scope or objectives of the EU.

This process is called the “ordinary revision procedure” in the Lisbon Treaty.

Changes introduced by the Lisbon Treaty
The Lisbon Treaty provides for what is described as “simplified revision procedures”. There are two such procedures.

One provides that the European Council may unanimously agree changes to the parts of the Treaties that deal with the internal workings of the EU. This means that any member state may veto such a change. Such changes may not increase the competence of the EU. In order to come into effect, any such changes must be ratified by each member state in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. In Ireland’s case, that may or may not require a referendum. Changes to EU treaties do not always need a referendum at present.

The second provides that the European Council has the power to amend the Treaties so as to allow Qualified Majority Voting to operate in certain areas where unanimity is now required or to apply the Ordinary Legislative Procedure in certain areas where a Special Legislative Procedure applies at present. Any such proposal must be agreed unanimously by the European Council so any member state may veto a proposed change. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, any national parliament may prevent these changes coming into effect. Under the proposed amendment to the Constitution of Ireland, the approval of the Dáil and Seanad will be required for Ireland to agree to such proposed changes. Such changes may or may not require a referendum in Ireland. Not all changes to EU treaties need a referendum at present.

http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_faq.html

Ostrom

Hopefully with a south park episode - the sectarian conduct of both 'sides' has been nothing short of comical.

fligedlyflick

Lisbon provides that if one-third of National Parliaments object to the Commission’s proposal for an EU law, the Commission must reconsider it, but not necessarily abandon it (Protocol on the Application of the Principles of Subsidiarity and Proportionality, Art.7.2). It might review the draft law, or if it considered the objection was not justified, it might ignore it. This right to complain, for that is what it is, is not an increase in the powers of National Parliaments, as it has been widely misrepresented as being, but is symbolic rather of their loss of real power. To say that it is an increase in the power of National Parliaments to “control”, or even to affect, EU legislation is a blatant lie. Lisbon takes away major law-making powers from National Parliaments. It would give power to the EU to legislate in relation to some 32 new policy areas, thereby removing these areas from decision by National Parliaments. It also gives the EU the power to decide many other matters.

your preceding comment in plain english

Sam Vimes

fligedlyflick wrote: »

Lisbon provides that if one-third of National Parliaments object to the Commission’s proposal for an EU law, the Commission must reconsider it, but not necessarily abandon it (Protocol on the Application of the Principles of Subsidiarity and Proportionality, Art.7.2). It might review the draft law, or if it considered the objection was not justified, it might ignore it. This right to complain, for that is what it is, is not an increase in the powers of National Parliaments, as it has been widely misrepresented as being, but is symbolic rather of their loss of real power. To say that it is an increase in the power of National Parliaments to “control”, or even to affect, EU legislation is a blatant lie.

It's more than they have now, now they have no role

fligedlyflick wrote: »

Lisbon takes away major law-making powers from National Parliaments. It would give power to the EU to legislate in relation to some 32 new policy areas, thereby removing these areas from decision by National Parliaments. It also gives the EU the power to decide many other matters.

your preceding comment in plain english

Such as..........

And which ones do you have a particular problem with being decided on an international level with representatives from all countries, including elected and appointed Irish representatives?

fligedlyflick

do you want particular laws or shall i just theorize it?
either way i will most probably be condemned as scaremongering and lying.

take for instance these protocols cowen and martin keep bleating on about, they are manipulated and changed to something contrary to what we were sold , there is pressure on the government to clarify the position and return it to what was originally protection for our state laws, the eu has an obligation to consider, not change or relent, consider the proposal and is under no justification to bow to irish queries or concerns, this is fact, this is something the yes side are eager to sweep under the carpet and will not facilitate such discussions.

Sam Vimes

fligedlyflick wrote: »

do you want particular laws or shall i just theorize it?
either way i will most probably be condemned as scaremongering and lying.

take for instance these protocols cowen and martin keep bleating on about, they are manipulated and changed to something contrary to what we were sold , there is pressure on the government to clarify the position and return it to what was originally protection for our state laws, the eu has an obligation to consider, not change or relent, consider the proposal and is under no justification to bow to irish queries or concerns, this is fact, this is something the yes side are eager to sweep under the carpet and will not facilitate such discussions.

This is not fact, this is the most persistent lie of the no campaign.

Lisbon Treaty Article 249 wrote:

“LEGAL ACTS OF THE UNION

233) The heading of Chapter 2 shall be replaced by the following "LEGAL ACTS OF THE UNION, ADOPTION PROCEDURES AND OTHER PROVISIONS".

234) A Section 1 shall be inserted above Article 249:

"SECTION 1 THE LEGAL ACTS OF THE UNION".”



“235) Article 249 shall be amended as follows:

(a) the first paragraph shall be replaced by the following:

"To exercise the Union's competences, the institutions shall adopt regulations, directives, decisions, recommendations and opinions.";

(b) the fourth paragraph shall be replaced by the following:

"A decision shall be binding in its entirety. A decision which specifies those to whom it is addressed shall be binding only on them."

A "decision" is legally binding.

Legal context of the guarantees wrote:

Ireland and the Treaty of Lisbon

1. The European Council recalls that the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon requires ratification by each of the 27 Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. It reaffirms its wish to see the Treaty enter into force by the end of 2009.

2. Having carefully noted the concerns of the Irish people as set out by the Taoiseach, the European Council, at its meeting of 11-12 December 2008, agreed that, provided the Treaty of Lisbon enters into force, a decision would be taken, in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, to the effect that the Commission shall continue to include one national of each Member State.

3. The European Council also agreed that other concerns of the Irish people, as presented by the Taoiseach, relating to taxation policy, the right to life, education and the family, and Ireland's traditional policy of military neutrality, would be addressed to the mutual satisfaction of Ireland and the other Member States, by way of the necessary legal guarantees. It was also agreed that the high importance attached to a number of social issues, including workers' rights, would be confirmed.

4. Against this background, the European Council has agreed on the following set of arrangements, which are fully compatible with the Treaty, in order to provide reassurance and to respond to the concerns of the Irish people:
(a) Decision of the Heads of State or Government of the 27 Member States of the European Union, meeting within the European Council, on the concerns of the Irish people on the Treaty of Lisbon (Annex 1);
(b) Solemn Declaration on Workers' Rights, Social Policy and other issues (Annex 2). The European Council has also taken cognisance of the unilateral declaration of Ireland (Annex 3), which will be associated with the Irish instrument of ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon.

5. Regarding the Decision in Annex 1, the Heads of State or Government have declared that:
(i) this Decision gives legal guarantee that certain matters of concern to the Irish people will be unaffected by the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;
(ii) its content is fully compatible with the Treaty of Lisbon and will not necessitate any reratification of that Treaty;
(iii) the Decision is legally binding and will take effect on the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;
(iv) they will, at the time of the conclusion of the next accession Treaty, set out the provisions of the annexed Decision in a Protocol to be attached, in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements, to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union;
(v) the Protocol will in no way alter the relationship between the EU and its Member States. The sole purpose of the Protocol will be to give full Treaty status to the clarifications set out in the Decision to meet the concerns of the Irish people. Its status will be no different from similar clarifications in Protocols obtained by other Member States. The Protocol will clarify but not change either the content or the application of the Treaty of Lisbon.

the reason no one on the yes side is talking about it, or as you put it "sweeping it under the carpet" is because the idea that the guarantees aren't binding is a deliberate lie

fligedlyflick

yeah,
any concerns we have is lies and being spoon fed constant bureaucratic ideology which never addresses the full question reinforces my belief that no voters know what they are voting against whilst yes voters are using the heritage of parental preference to political party allegiance.
can i change topic here slightly and ask why the eu anthem is being played at the unfurling of the eu flag in brussels with full military honours?
something where a decision was made to drop them?
or was that decision open for revaluation?

Sam Vimes

fligedlyflick wrote: »

yeah,
any concerns we have is lies and being spoon fed constant bureaucratic ideology which never addresses the full question reinforces my belief that no voters know what they are voting against whilst yes voters are using the heritage of parental preference to political party allegiance.

Eh, mate, I hate Fianna Fail and our politicians and don't listen to anything they say. Instead I have looked up the facts and what I have given you above is a fact. If you don't want to believe that a decision within the EU is legally binding and that there is a massive conspiracy involving thousands of members of 27 governments and the United Nations to trick the Irish people so the EU can force abortion on us and raise our taxes you can do that but please take it here where it belongs. In this forum people discuss reality.

And if you truly believe that you shouldn't be talking about the Lisbon treaty, you should be raising an army to take down this fascist dictatorship.

fligedlyflick wrote: »

can i change topic here slightly and ask why the eu anthem is being played at the unfurling of the eu flag in brussels with full military honours?
something where a decision was made to drop them?
or was that decision open for revaluation?

It's always been the unofficial flag of the EU, the constitution made it official but that part was removed so it remains unofficial but still used, as it always was. But you won't believe that because it doesn't fit with your idea of the EU as an evil dictator

Long Onion

That depends - which one are you talking about?

fligedlyflick

so, im outside the boundaries of reality.
hmmm, such a shame that petty name calling has replaced honest discussions, have you michael o'learys slanderous full page advert pinned to your bedroom wall as a beacon of self righteous posturing?