Proud to vote NO..consider your Europeans who could not vote

Colpriz

Title says it all..Europeans had no choice to vote, those that did, were overturned by their government..you now have the last chance to say for those that couldn't vote, a chance for democrarcy in A Europe we want to be in...allies fought for it, Irsih service men/women died for it, we died,lost our own personal lives through it..Vote NO for democracy ourselves, lets be the evolution...turn out on Friday and overturn a selfreflexive dictactorship of its kind...NO! we wont have it in these times

hatrickpatrick

Get ready for people to tell you "our vote is none of your business" or "petition your government and leave us alone"

Of course, the people who will say that to you always seem to ignore the oft-repeated fact that Lisbon is the twice-rejected constitution with 4 tiny sections removed out of more than 400...

Rb

Jesus, just when you thought this stuff couldn't get any worse we're told about the Irish men and women who fought for European Democracy.

Scrape a reason out of the treaty to vote No, stop trying to find other reasons out of a lack of factual reasons. This is just desperate.

Our vote is noone elses business. The treaty as been ratified in member states according to their constitution, it is not up to us to tell them whether they should hold a referendum on things, particularly when it's not constitutionally necessary.

The amount of tripe-peddling new accounts being created seems to be unending recently, hopefully Saturday (and perhaps its aftermath) will see the end of this horrid trend.

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

Jesus, just when you thought this stuff couldn't get any worse we're told about the Irish men and women who fought for European Democracy.

Colpriz

Scrape a reason out of that?..to miss quote yourself as you have me?

Is there a difference between European Democracy and the WOTW? No...democracy for all..Voting once not twice

Scofflaw

Basically, we should vote No because other people have voted No - either in other countries, or in a previous vote.

Well, I suppose I shall proudly vote Yes because other people have voted Yes - either in other countries, or in a previous vote (and that one includes me!).

Makes as much sense the one as the other.

amused,
Scofflaw

Rb

@rambling OP: What are you talking about?

Scofflaw: On those grounds I'm going to vote Yes because America voted for Barak Obama, who is Black, and we need to get our accounts out of the red and into the black. Vote Yes for black.

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

@rambling OP: What are you talking about?

Scofflaw: On those grounds I'm going to vote Yes because America voted for Barak Obama, who is Black, and we need to get our accounts out of the red and into the black. Vote Yes for black.

proof of joshiites who vote yes..?

marco_polo

It is just not clear how many countries have to have a referendum for a treaty to be legitimate, so I think this needs to be established first.

Clearly Nice isn't because there was only one referendum for that as well.

Is it two like the treaty of Amsterdam and the Single European act?

Three like maastricht?

Should we not sign another treaty until all countries change their constitutions make treaty referenda mandatory?, before we negotiate another EU treaty if Lisbon fails again.

This make take some time as the UK would have to write a constitution first, and a few other countries would have to legalise them as well, before making them mandatory.

To those who proclaim the virtues of Irish soverignty so much, you don't seem to have much respect for anyone elses.

rebelmind

Colpriz wrote: »

Title says it all..Europeans had no choice to vote, those that did, were overturned by their government..you now have the last chance to say for those that couldn't vote, a chance for democrarcy in A Europe we want to be in...allies fought for it, Irsih service men/women died for it, we died,lost our own personal lives through it..Vote NO for democracy ourselves, lets be the evolution...turn out on Friday and overturn a selfreflexive dictactorship of its kind...NO! we wont have it in these times

Dictatorship & fascism is the name of the game, unfortunately.
The lack of understanding of this by many people simply proves the point.
I guarantee many people who are being duped into voting yes to this will regret it in time, but thats where ones responsibility to educate others ends. In other words, ther won't be any 'I told you so's' from me.

However, a no vote, is not going to solve this countries/ or Europes problems either, it just won't make them worse.

Here's a simple question for the don't knows & yes voters -
How will a treaty, replete with the same neo-liberal (neo-con) ideology, which has led the people, (not the elite), into the worst economic crisis since the 30's solve our current difficulty?

IMHO, if Europe does not have a democratic base, it will fail, absolutely.

hatrickpatrick

OP: What'd I tell you?

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

OP: What'd I tell you?

Will you take post number nine in that case?

Since you have repeateedly stated the Irish soverignty is so important to you, why not apply the same logic to other countries?

zuroph

rebelmind wrote: »

Here's a simple question for the don't knows & yes voters -
How will a treaty, replete with the same neo-liberal (neo-con) ideology, which has led the people, (not the elite), into the worst economic crisis since the 30's solve our current difficulty?

I thought you said this question was going to be simple?

but to answer..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8198766.stm
these boys seem to know what they're doing.

Rb

Colpriz wrote: »

proof of joshiites who vote yes..?

What?

rebelmind wrote:

Dictatorship & fascism is the name of the game, unfortunately.
The lack of understanding of this by many people simply proves the point.
I guarantee many people who are being duped into voting yes to this will regret it in time, but thats where ones responsibility to educate others ends. In other words, ther won't be any 'I told you so's' from me.

However, a no vote, is not going to solve this countries/ or Europes problems either, it just won't make them worse.

Here's a simple question for the don't knows & yes voters -
How will a treaty, replete with the same neo-liberal (neo-con) ideology, which has led the people, (not the elite), into the worst economic crisis since the 30's solve our current difficulty?

IMHO, if Europe does not have a democratic base, it will fail, absolutely.

rabble rabble rabble dictators hitler Nazis!

Europe will fail if it keeps putting the fate of complex, reform treaties into the hands of a bunch of idiots who won't even read the document, nor the consolidated version, but instead shoot the treaty down for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with it.

You're now showing a complete lack of understanding of why we're in an economic crisis, which adds to your apparent lack of understanding of the treaty contents itself. You've also failed to explain once how we've been "bullied" yet claiming it on two separate occasions, instead choosing to find another thread to fill with this nonsense.

The treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. How can you not understand that yet feel the need to enter into debate about it?

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

OP: What'd I tell you?

The fact that we've now had to repeat the point often enough for it to assume the status of a cliché isn't really something that makes us happy either...vote on your own behalf, or vote on what you think is best for Ireland. That's your duty as an Irish voter voting in an Irish referendum.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick

marco_polo wrote: »

Will you take post number nine in that case?

Since you have repeateedly stated the Irish soverignty is so important to you, why not apply the same logic to other countries?

I do actually, but I also support people's right to talk, and quite frankly the sheer abuse which gets thrown at foreign posters campaigning here has really sickened me. And that's completely outside the whole treaty debate, it's just sickening in general.

major bill

Scofflaw wrote: »

Basically, we should vote No because other people have voted No - either in other countries, or in a previous vote.

Well, I suppose I shall proudly vote Yes because other people have voted Yes - either in other countries, or in a previous vote (and that one includes me!).

Makes as much sense the one as the other.

amused,
Scofflaw

we already voted no as did the french and the dutch so i shall vote no again. would the people of ireland have been giving a second referendum by the government if it was a yes vote? doubt it european democracy contridicts itself.

amused
major bill

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I do actually, but I also support people's right to talk, and quite frankly the sheer abuse which gets thrown at foreign posters campaigning here has really sickened me. And that's completely outside the whole treaty debate, it's just sickening in general.

Ironically it was along the lines of butt out of an Irish referendum as I recall.

Whereas the opposite reaction was feel free to tell us how to vote (and we will feel free to lecture you on how to run your countries)

Have you come up with a number yet, I presume it is 100% mandatory referendums for all treaties, so you better get busy on those 26 seperate campaigns.

Colpriz

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.[/quote]


Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..

marco_polo

Colpriz wrote: »

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..[/QUOTE]

Is nobody going to give me a ballpark number?

Rb

Colpriz wrote:

Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..

Careful now, your desperation is showing.

dRNk SAnTA

Every single parliament in europe will ratify the treaty - each EU country is a democracy. Thinking you'll be doing other countries a favour by voting against something they want is the height of arrogance.

major bill

Colpriz wrote: »

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..[/quote]

can only guess who gave the red card there.

scofflaw, in all fairness are politics mods not meant to be neutral? because the impression im getting is your far from neutral.

moondogspot

Yes Colpriz I am proud to be voting No!!

Rb

Major Bill wrote:

can only guess who gave the red card there.

scofflaw, in all fairness are politics mods not meant to be neutral? because the impression im getting is your far from neutral.

No, they're not, only in their moderation decisions, not in participation. If you've an issue, go to Sys -> Helpdesk and start a thread about it there, where only the admins will be able to respond.

However, had you read the forum charters here you would know from here

I will ban anyone accusing moderators of bias in threads in this forum.

Anyone wishing to make a complaint about bias in this forum may do so here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=30. If you can clearly prove that a moderator is biased on here there believe me the admins will do something about it.

Doing it in a thread in this forum will get you banned. Please don't do it.

However, I believe this might be a second text you haven't bothered to read lately Also, for future reference, thanking infracted posts is usually a good way to get yourself into trouble.

Also, regarding your first point about a second referendum, there's a big difference between a Yes vote and a No vote, crucially a No vote begs the question "What is wrong with this Treaty" which results in the electorate being asked to voice their concerns and the EU having to address it. A Yes doesn't do it, as it merely says "We're happy with what you've presented us with, which you're clearly happy with yourself".

If our issues were unaddressable, there wouldn't be a second referendum.

View

Colpriz wrote: »

Title says it all..Europeans had no choice to vote, those that did, were overturned by their government..you now have the last chance to say for those that couldn't vote, a chance for democrarcy in A Europe we want to be in...allies fought for it, Irsih service men/women died for it, we died,lost our own personal lives through it..Vote NO for democracy ourselves, lets be the evolution...turn out on Friday and overturn a selfreflexive dictactorship of its kind...NO! we wont have it in these times

Around 80-90% of voters in the recent European elections voted for candidates/parties who were pro-Lisbon/pro-EU. Based on those results, I guess that would mean all Irish voters show vote Yes.

What's that? - all you No voters will vote No anyway and ignore the fact that so many voters supported pro-Lisbon/pro-EU candidates and parties. :rolleyes:

ghost_ie

Rb wrote: »

What?



rabble rabble rabble dictators hitler Nazis!

Europe will fail if it keeps putting the fate of complex, reform treaties into the hands of a bunch of idiots who won't even read the document, nor the consolidated version, but instead shoot the treaty down for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with it.

You're now showing a complete lack of understanding of why we're in an economic crisis, which adds to your apparent lack of understanding of the treaty contents itself. You've also failed to explain once how we've been "bullied" yet claiming it on two separate occasions, instead choosing to find another thread to fill with this nonsense.

The treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. How can you not understand that yet feel the need to enter into debate about it?

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Cowen and McCreevey being two of those idiots. Both admitted in the run-up to Lisbon I that they hadn't read the Treaty.

Cowen has repeatedly said that we're in an economic crisis because of the global economic downturn. Sorry - I forgot - he's one of the idiots who didn't read the Treaty.

You say the Treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. Yet I've seen many posters for the FF and others on the Yes side saying "Vote Yes for Jobs", "Vote yes for the Economy". Oh...sorry...I forgot again...they didn't read the Treaty.

So basically I'm being told to vote Yes by people who haven't read the Treaty. In that case, I'm definitely voting NO

major bill

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Every single parliament in europe will ratify the treaty - each EU country is a democracy. Thinking you'll be doing other countries a favour by voting against something they want is the height of arrogance.

how do you know they want it? were they asked? were they giving a referendum? eh no so we dont know if they do or they dont, all we know is the british were promised a referendum but didnt get one due to their government known too well that they would reject it.The dutch and the french both rejected the the same treaty.

Rb

ghost_ie wrote: »

Cowen and McCreevey being two of those idiots. Both admitted in the run-up to Lisbon I that they hadn't read the Treaty.

Cowen has repeatedly said that we're in an economic crisis because of the global economic downturn. Sorry - I forgot - he's one of the idiots who didn't read the Treaty.

You say the Treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. Yet I've seen many posters for the FF and others on the Yes side saying "Vote Yes for Jobs", "Vote yes for the Economy". Oh...sorry...I forgot again...they didn't read the Treaty.

So basically I'm being told to vote Yes by people who haven't read the Treaty. In that case, I'm definitely voting NO

If I had the advisors that Brian Cowen and Charlie McCreevey have, I doubt I'd bother reading the treaty myself. Their advisors are people far, far more savvy with such documents and could advise, as is their role, Cowen or whoever on what was contained in the text.

Personally if I had to choose between having our Taoiseach take time out of running the country right now to sit down and sift through the full treaty, and remain where he is and have a highly educated expert tell him the facts on it while he gets on with his job, I'd pick the latter.

Yes, we are in an economic crisis because of an global economic downturn, now how do past treaties relate to, or show cause of, said economic downturn?

Those slogans have been addressed previously and are more aspirational statements from the assumed increase in confidence a Yes result would return. They are, as has been said, a damn sight better than the signs that imply that voting Yes puts the lives of the elderly and babies in danger. A damn sight, and as I pointed out earlier, if you can't see and register that difference, then there's something very, very wrong.

major bill

I will ban anyone accusing moderators of bias in threads in this forum.

Anyone wishing to make a complaint about bias in this forum may do so here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=30. If you can clearly prove that a moderator is biased on here there believe me the admins will do something about it.

Doing it in a thread in this forum will get you banned. Please don't do it.
quote

so ban anybody that dears question the mods:rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick

marco_polo wrote: »

Ironically it was along the lines of butt out of an Irish referendum as I recall.

Whereas the opposite reaction was feel free to tell us how to vote (and we will feel free to lecture you on how to run your countries)

Have you come up with a number yet, I presume it is 100% mandatory referendums for all treaties, so you better get busy on those 26 seperate campaigns.

Me? I wasn't actually claiming that there should be referenda in this particular post, I was simply implying that even if you disagree with people who come to boards.ie and ask you to vote because they didn't get a referendum, you could at least be decent about it. It's the condescending manner in which such posters are treated which pisses me off, not the opinions people have about referenda.

zuroph

major bill wrote: »

so ban anybody that dears question the mods:rolleyes:

you question them in another forum.. helpdesk. This keeps the forums clean, and is a sitewide policy.

However, if a yes vote goes through,German Mods will be writing your posts for you, and signing your name to them. :pac:

ghost_ie

major bill wrote: »

how do you know they want it? were they asked? were they giving a referendum? eh no so we dont know if they do or they dont, all we know is the british were promised a referendum but didnt get one due to their government known too well that they would reject it.The dutch and the french both rejected the the same treaty.

But we do know how they'd vote if they were given the chance. Our very own Commissioner, Charlie McCreevey, said that if given the chance to vote, 95% of the European electorate would vote against the Treaty

Rb

major bill wrote: »

how do you know they want it? were they asked? were they giving a referendum? eh no so we dont know if they do or they dont, all we know is the british were promised a referendum but didnt get one due to their government known too well that they would reject it.The dutch and the french both rejected the the same treaty.

The French and Dutch rejected the European Constitution, a document that proposed a European National Anthem, flag and a few other things that the French and Dutch hated. These have since been taken out, and since their concerns have been addressed, like ours have this time, it was ratified through their democratically elected Government as everything should be A OK.

There has been no revolution, no overthrowing the Government, the only protests have been held by handfuls of Euro-skeptics, so it assumed that people are happy with what they have got. They *can* do something about it they're not, afterall, yet there isn't the slightest inclination that they're not.

Throughout Europe there are virtually no Protests, with the exception of, again, handfuls of nutjob fringe groups who'll presumably protest against anything EU, like our good Sinn Fein do.

So, as said, evidence suggests that the majority are happy with the document and until you can prove, and the onus is on you here, that the majority are NOT happy, then it should not be a concern going to the polls on Friday.

That would require quite a bit of research and reporting, so I somehow don't see it as feasible, so realistically you should just drop it as a protest point and particularly if you plan on using it as an excuse to vote against this treaty.

rebelmind

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Every single parliament in europe will ratify the treaty - each EU country is a democracy. Thinking you'll be doing other countries a favour by voting against something they want is the height of arrogance.

Correction.
The parliaments/establishments of those countries, NOT THE PEOPLE.
What part of democracy do you not understand?
Especially when the answer is a NO, (from the people).
This is the kind of mindless stuff one encounters in such forums.

Scofflaw

ghost_ie wrote: »

But we do know how they'd vote if they were given the chance. Our very own Commissioner, Charlie McCreevey, said that if given the chance to vote, 95% of the European electorate would vote against the Treaty

That's a very poor piece of reasoning. Charlie McCreevy says something - so it must be true?

We don't know how they'd vote - all we know is (a) how No voters would like to think they'd vote, and (b) how Charlie McCreevy thinks they'd vote. Neither of those amount to anything approaching facts.

regards,
Scofflaw

major bill

Rb wrote: »

If I had the advisors that Brian Cowen and Charlie McCreevey have, I doubt I'd bother reading the treaty myself. Their advisors are people far, far more savvy with such documents and could advise, as is their role, Cowen or whoever on what was contained in the text.

Personally if I had to choose between having our Taoiseach take time out of running the country right now to sit down and sift through the full treaty, and remain where he is and have a highly educated expert tell him the facts on it while he gets on with his job, I'd pick the latter.

but he's the prime minister of this country thats his job surely if he wants us to vote yes and critise us in the way he did in the last vote he could take time out and read the bloody thing.This is a man who blatantly lies to the irish people and we are supposed to trust him and his cabinet of thieves and vote yes to lisbon.

Rb

ghost_ie wrote: »

But we do know how they'd vote if they were given the chance. Our very own Commissioner, Charlie McCreevey, said that if given the chance to vote, 95% of the European electorate would vote against the Treaty

Maybe he's assuming they're the same as the lazy, selfish slobs who turned up at the polls last time and voted against a treaty they knew nothing about because they knew nothing about it? Or that people would exercise their anti-establishment muscles on a treaty with nothing to do with their current Government? Or that people would derive mad explanations from it, like those accusing the treaty of being an introduction to microchipping children.

If our results are anything to go by, then yes, it is possible it would get shot down purely because the treaty is far too complex for the majority of idiots who feel they have to exercise their right to vote on it.

However, if one had to sit a test before voting on it, a basic enough test, I believe the results would be far, far different.

hatrickpatrick

^ Many here worship representative democracy to the point of claiming "the people only have the right to elect a government and then hand absolute power over to that government and no matter what they do, put up with them for the fixed amount of time before the next election". To me that view is completely undemocratic, but that's their opinion and they are entitled to it.

My own personal opinion is that the people should be able to call a referendum of no confidence in the government at any time and kick them out of office if they get a high enough percentage in favour of this. I also think that as much decision making as possible should be put in the hands of local councils rather than the Dail, which also gives the people much more direct control over their representatives. The key word is represent. They are meant to represent our views, not tell us to change our views to match theirs!!! We're not supposed to be representing THEIR view when we go to the polls...

Scofflaw

rebelmind wrote: »

Correction.
The parliaments/establishments of those countries, NOT THE PEOPLE.
What part of democracy do you not understand?
Especially when the answer is a NO, (from the people).
This is the kind of mindless stuff one encounters in such forums.

rebelmind, you don't know how they'd vote. You're making an assumption to suit how you would like things to be. In the process, you're dismissing the entire apparatus of Western democracy in favour of "looking into your heart" and divining as if by magic that people would have voted your way.

It's bunkum - and you'd have no hesitation recognising it as such in any other context.

regards,
Scofflaw

Rb

rebelmind wrote:

Correction.
The parliaments/establishments of those countries, NOT THE PEOPLE.
What part of democracy do you not understand?
Especially when the answer is a NO, (from the people).
This is the kind of mindless stuff one encounters in such forums.

The parliaments/establishments are democratically elected representatives of the people. That is how it works.

What part of democracy do you actually understand? Since you like to use the word so much?

Mindless stuff one encounters in such forums? Such forums as what? I must applaud your attempt with that sentence, however you've failed miserably in execution.

However, it is quite amusing that you, of all posters, accuse others of posting "mindless stuff" when you seem to be unable to back up a single statement, nor address any form of confrontation on a point you've introduced.

I wouldn't suggest joining a debating team or society anyway.

major bill

Rb wrote: »

Maybe he's assuming they're the same as the lazy, selfish slobs who turned up at the polls last time and voted against a treaty they knew nothing about because they knew nothing about it?.

whatever about your own agenda and that RB no need for insulting people.

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

If I had the advisors that Brian Cowen and Charlie McCreevey have, I doubt I'd bother reading the treaty myself.

So thats why we/the rest of you dont believe you..coz you couldnt be bothered..you were elected to represent a Nation..us..Ireland..and you failed..not matter who you got to be your advisors..they wernt elected to be the the advisors of the Irish People who eleclted you in good faith..admit your failures FF, tell the Irsih public.. you failed to educate the population 1st time round, yes/no hangs on our vote now, surely a democratic Europe would see that and call for a vote across Europe..NO!

zuroph

just a quick question, why are the no campaigners on here totally incapable of effectively quoting a post? I've lost count of the posts with quotes not surrounded by tags.

Rb

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

^ Many here worship representative democracy to the point of claiming "the people only have the right to elect a government and then hand absolute power over to that government and no matter what they do, put up with them for the fixed amount of time before the next election". To me that view is completely undemocratic, but that's their opinion and they are entitled to it.

Do you think we should be voting on this treaty? What do the results of Lisbon I say to you about the referendum process on such a document?

hatrickpatick wrote:

My own personal opinion is that the people should be able to call a referendum of no confidence in the government at any time and kick them out of office if they get a high enough percentage in favour of this. I also think that as much decision making as possible should be put in the hands of local councils rather than the Dail, which also gives the people much more direct control over their representatives. The key word is represent. They are meant to represent our views, not tell us to change our views to match theirs!!! We're not supposed to be representing THEIR view when we go to the polls...

But we're not...?

They asked us in Lisbon I if we wanted this treaty or not, we said No, primarily because we knew nothing about it but then on another host of spurious reasons that came across as excuses or a last minute effort.

They then addressed those issues and are asking us "Ok guys, we've addressed the issues in the most effective way, so now that we've done that what do you think of the document now?", while people such as the IRC have went on information campaigns.

Technically we should all be in a completely different state of mind, with new points to debate based on the treaty contents since we're now in what should be good shape after the feedback on Lisbon I.

However, instead we find ourselves dealing with the same lies (such as Abortion and taxation) from the same people, and now more nut jobs, more people who didn't bother to read the many sources available etc etc.

They want OUR views! |They're doing what they can to get OUR views across and secure guarantees based on OUR views....yet it's still not good enough apparently. Instead people are now finding even more spurious reasons to vote against it, such as the campaign run by different political parties.

Why? Because there genuinely isn't a reason to vote no this time, simple as that.

And that, my friend, is why we're seeing nutjob after nutjob posting threads calling for a No here, with a body of text that has nothing to do with the treaty we're voting on. It's a shame, but we're still airing our views, not those of our representatives.

hatrickpatrick

Is anyone HONESTLY going to actually try and say that Cowen should trust his advisors?

the same people who told him as recently July 2008 that "the fundamentals of our economy are still strong" when anyone with half a brain knew the **** had hit the fan back in November '07?

The same geniuses who then told him that 2008 would be a bad year but that we'd be all fine and dandy again by the end of 2009?

Worst. Argument. Evar.

Rb

major bill wrote: »

whatever about your own agenda and that RB no need for insulting people.

Sorry but if people are going to shoot down something they know nothing about, because they know nothing about it despite many resources being available, they deserve to be insulted. It is lazy, selfish behaviour. That treaty took people so much time and effort, and money, to create and we have idiots who are turning up at the ballot boxes going "Hurrrr, I didn't read informations so Is voting no!! because I can!!!" , it is an insult to democracy and those who've put the work into this and believe in it. Those people deserve whatever they get and I'd say that in any nature/walk of life they happen to take this attitude towards.

The worst part is that these people occupied the majority of the No vote last time, and are trying to find excuses this time.

Rb

Colpriz wrote: »

Rb wrote: »

If I had the advisors that Brian Cowen and Charlie McCreevey have, I doubt I'd bother reading the treaty myself.

So thats why we/the rest of you dont believe you..coz you couldnt be bothered..you were elected to represent a Nation..us..Ireland..and you failed..not matter who you got to be your advisors..they wernt elected to be the the advisors of the Irish People who eleclted you in good faith..admit your failures FF, tell the Irsih public.. you failed to educate the population 1st time round, yes/no hangs on our vote now, surely a democratic Europe would see that and call for a vote across Europe..NO!

Ok this is bordering lunacy now, if you start making coherent points I'll address them in the future but any more of this rambling nonsense and I'm just going to ignore it.

major bill

zuroph wrote: »

just a quick question, why are the no campaigners on here totally incapable of effectively quoting a post? I've lost count of the posts with quotes not surrounded by tags.

because we are all incapable of doing so as we are nutjobs with half a brain simply using the pc in grange gorman to get our points across before pill and bed time.

Colpriz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is anyone HONESTLY going to actually try and say that Cowen should trust his advisors?

the same people who told him as recently July 2008 that "the fundamentals of our economy are still strong" when anyone with half a brain knew the **** had hit the fan back in November '07?

The same geniuses who then told him that 2008 would be a bad year but that we'd be all fine and dandy again by the end of 2009?

Worst. Argument. Evar.

so lets believe them again..mighty craic next budget..Evar?????????

zuroph

major bill wrote: »

because we are all incapable of doing so as we are nutjobs with half a brain simply using the pc in grange gorman to get our points across before pill and bed time.

but you successfully quoted me, so now you must vote yes. muhahaha.