Proud to vote NO..consider your Europeans who could not vote

Colpriz

Title says it all..Europeans had no choice to vote, those that did, were overturned by their government..you now have the last chance to say for those that couldn't vote, a chance for democrarcy in A Europe we want to be in...allies fought for it, Irsih service men/women died for it, we died,lost our own personal lives through it..Vote NO for democracy ourselves, lets be the evolution...turn out on Friday and overturn a selfreflexive dictactorship of its kind...NO! we wont have it in these times

hatrickpatrick

Get ready for people to tell you "our vote is none of your business" or "petition your government and leave us alone"

Of course, the people who will say that to you always seem to ignore the oft-repeated fact that Lisbon is the twice-rejected constitution with 4 tiny sections removed out of more than 400...

Rb

Jesus, just when you thought this stuff couldn't get any worse we're told about the Irish men and women who fought for European Democracy.

Scrape a reason out of the treaty to vote No, stop trying to find other reasons out of a lack of factual reasons. This is just desperate.

Our vote is noone elses business. The treaty as been ratified in member states according to their constitution, it is not up to us to tell them whether they should hold a referendum on things, particularly when it's not constitutionally necessary.

The amount of tripe-peddling new accounts being created seems to be unending recently, hopefully Saturday (and perhaps its aftermath) will see the end of this horrid trend.

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

Jesus, just when you thought this stuff couldn't get any worse we're told about the Irish men and women who fought for European Democracy.

Colpriz

Scrape a reason out of that?..to miss quote yourself as you have me?

Is there a difference between European Democracy and the WOTW? No...democracy for all..Voting once not twice

Scofflaw

Basically, we should vote No because other people have voted No - either in other countries, or in a previous vote.

Well, I suppose I shall proudly vote Yes because other people have voted Yes - either in other countries, or in a previous vote (and that one includes me!).

Makes as much sense the one as the other.

amused,
Scofflaw

Rb

@rambling OP: What are you talking about?

Scofflaw: On those grounds I'm going to vote Yes because America voted for Barak Obama, who is Black, and we need to get our accounts out of the red and into the black. Vote Yes for black.

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

@rambling OP: What are you talking about?

Scofflaw: On those grounds I'm going to vote Yes because America voted for Barak Obama, who is Black, and we need to get our accounts out of the red and into the black. Vote Yes for black.

proof of joshiites who vote yes..?

marco_polo

It is just not clear how many countries have to have a referendum for a treaty to be legitimate, so I think this needs to be established first.

Clearly Nice isn't because there was only one referendum for that as well.

Is it two like the treaty of Amsterdam and the Single European act?

Three like maastricht?

Should we not sign another treaty until all countries change their constitutions make treaty referenda mandatory?, before we negotiate another EU treaty if Lisbon fails again.

This make take some time as the UK would have to write a constitution first, and a few other countries would have to legalise them as well, before making them mandatory.

To those who proclaim the virtues of Irish soverignty so much, you don't seem to have much respect for anyone elses.

rebelmind

Colpriz wrote: »

Title says it all..Europeans had no choice to vote, those that did, were overturned by their government..you now have the last chance to say for those that couldn't vote, a chance for democrarcy in A Europe we want to be in...allies fought for it, Irsih service men/women died for it, we died,lost our own personal lives through it..Vote NO for democracy ourselves, lets be the evolution...turn out on Friday and overturn a selfreflexive dictactorship of its kind...NO! we wont have it in these times

Dictatorship & fascism is the name of the game, unfortunately.
The lack of understanding of this by many people simply proves the point.
I guarantee many people who are being duped into voting yes to this will regret it in time, but thats where ones responsibility to educate others ends. In other words, ther won't be any 'I told you so's' from me.

However, a no vote, is not going to solve this countries/ or Europes problems either, it just won't make them worse.

Here's a simple question for the don't knows & yes voters -
How will a treaty, replete with the same neo-liberal (neo-con) ideology, which has led the people, (not the elite), into the worst economic crisis since the 30's solve our current difficulty?

IMHO, if Europe does not have a democratic base, it will fail, absolutely.

hatrickpatrick

OP: What'd I tell you?

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

OP: What'd I tell you?

Will you take post number nine in that case?

Since you have repeateedly stated the Irish soverignty is so important to you, why not apply the same logic to other countries?

zuroph

rebelmind wrote: »

Here's a simple question for the don't knows & yes voters -
How will a treaty, replete with the same neo-liberal (neo-con) ideology, which has led the people, (not the elite), into the worst economic crisis since the 30's solve our current difficulty?

I thought you said this question was going to be simple?

but to answer..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8198766.stm
these boys seem to know what they're doing.

Rb

Colpriz wrote: »

proof of joshiites who vote yes..?

What?

rebelmind wrote:

Dictatorship & fascism is the name of the game, unfortunately.
The lack of understanding of this by many people simply proves the point.
I guarantee many people who are being duped into voting yes to this will regret it in time, but thats where ones responsibility to educate others ends. In other words, ther won't be any 'I told you so's' from me.

However, a no vote, is not going to solve this countries/ or Europes problems either, it just won't make them worse.

Here's a simple question for the don't knows & yes voters -
How will a treaty, replete with the same neo-liberal (neo-con) ideology, which has led the people, (not the elite), into the worst economic crisis since the 30's solve our current difficulty?

IMHO, if Europe does not have a democratic base, it will fail, absolutely.

rabble rabble rabble dictators hitler Nazis!

Europe will fail if it keeps putting the fate of complex, reform treaties into the hands of a bunch of idiots who won't even read the document, nor the consolidated version, but instead shoot the treaty down for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with it.

You're now showing a complete lack of understanding of why we're in an economic crisis, which adds to your apparent lack of understanding of the treaty contents itself. You've also failed to explain once how we've been "bullied" yet claiming it on two separate occasions, instead choosing to find another thread to fill with this nonsense.

The treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. How can you not understand that yet feel the need to enter into debate about it?

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

OP: What'd I tell you?

The fact that we've now had to repeat the point often enough for it to assume the status of a cliché isn't really something that makes us happy either...vote on your own behalf, or vote on what you think is best for Ireland. That's your duty as an Irish voter voting in an Irish referendum.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hatrickpatrick

marco_polo wrote: »

Will you take post number nine in that case?

Since you have repeateedly stated the Irish soverignty is so important to you, why not apply the same logic to other countries?

I do actually, but I also support people's right to talk, and quite frankly the sheer abuse which gets thrown at foreign posters campaigning here has really sickened me. And that's completely outside the whole treaty debate, it's just sickening in general.

major bill

Scofflaw wrote: »

Basically, we should vote No because other people have voted No - either in other countries, or in a previous vote.

Well, I suppose I shall proudly vote Yes because other people have voted Yes - either in other countries, or in a previous vote (and that one includes me!).

Makes as much sense the one as the other.

amused,
Scofflaw

we already voted no as did the french and the dutch so i shall vote no again. would the people of ireland have been giving a second referendum by the government if it was a yes vote? doubt it european democracy contridicts itself.

amused
major bill

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I do actually, but I also support people's right to talk, and quite frankly the sheer abuse which gets thrown at foreign posters campaigning here has really sickened me. And that's completely outside the whole treaty debate, it's just sickening in general.

Ironically it was along the lines of butt out of an Irish referendum as I recall.

Whereas the opposite reaction was feel free to tell us how to vote (and we will feel free to lecture you on how to run your countries)

Have you come up with a number yet, I presume it is 100% mandatory referendums for all treaties, so you better get busy on those 26 seperate campaigns.

Colpriz

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.[/quote]


Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..

marco_polo

Colpriz wrote: »

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..[/QUOTE]

Is nobody going to give me a ballpark number?

Rb

Colpriz wrote:

Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..

Careful now, your desperation is showing.

dRNk SAnTA

Every single parliament in europe will ratify the treaty - each EU country is a democracy. Thinking you'll be doing other countries a favour by voting against something they want is the height of arrogance.

major bill

Colpriz wrote: »

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Would have carved yours from wood...seems more resonant with the rest of your head almost.. but if only I could fashion vacuum..[/quote]

can only guess who gave the red card there.

scofflaw, in all fairness are politics mods not meant to be neutral? because the impression im getting is your far from neutral.

moondogspot

Yes Colpriz I am proud to be voting No!!

Rb

Major Bill wrote:

can only guess who gave the red card there.

scofflaw, in all fairness are politics mods not meant to be neutral? because the impression im getting is your far from neutral.

No, they're not, only in their moderation decisions, not in participation. If you've an issue, go to Sys -> Helpdesk and start a thread about it there, where only the admins will be able to respond.

However, had you read the forum charters here you would know from here

I will ban anyone accusing moderators of bias in threads in this forum.

Anyone wishing to make a complaint about bias in this forum may do so here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=30. If you can clearly prove that a moderator is biased on here there believe me the admins will do something about it.

Doing it in a thread in this forum will get you banned. Please don't do it.

However, I believe this might be a second text you haven't bothered to read lately Also, for future reference, thanking infracted posts is usually a good way to get yourself into trouble.

Also, regarding your first point about a second referendum, there's a big difference between a Yes vote and a No vote, crucially a No vote begs the question "What is wrong with this Treaty" which results in the electorate being asked to voice their concerns and the EU having to address it. A Yes doesn't do it, as it merely says "We're happy with what you've presented us with, which you're clearly happy with yourself".

If our issues were unaddressable, there wouldn't be a second referendum.

View

Colpriz wrote: »

Title says it all..Europeans had no choice to vote, those that did, were overturned by their government..you now have the last chance to say for those that couldn't vote, a chance for democrarcy in A Europe we want to be in...allies fought for it, Irsih service men/women died for it, we died,lost our own personal lives through it..Vote NO for democracy ourselves, lets be the evolution...turn out on Friday and overturn a selfreflexive dictactorship of its kind...NO! we wont have it in these times

Around 80-90% of voters in the recent European elections voted for candidates/parties who were pro-Lisbon/pro-EU. Based on those results, I guess that would mean all Irish voters show vote Yes.

What's that? - all you No voters will vote No anyway and ignore the fact that so many voters supported pro-Lisbon/pro-EU candidates and parties. :rolleyes:

ghost_ie

Rb wrote: »

What?



rabble rabble rabble dictators hitler Nazis!

Europe will fail if it keeps putting the fate of complex, reform treaties into the hands of a bunch of idiots who won't even read the document, nor the consolidated version, but instead shoot the treaty down for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with it.

You're now showing a complete lack of understanding of why we're in an economic crisis, which adds to your apparent lack of understanding of the treaty contents itself. You've also failed to explain once how we've been "bullied" yet claiming it on two separate occasions, instead choosing to find another thread to fill with this nonsense.

The treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. How can you not understand that yet feel the need to enter into debate about it?

It is sad that the internet is becoming a medium for the voices of those who would have previously sat at home arguing with the mirror while wearing tinfoil hats.

Cowen and McCreevey being two of those idiots. Both admitted in the run-up to Lisbon I that they hadn't read the Treaty.

Cowen has repeatedly said that we're in an economic crisis because of the global economic downturn. Sorry - I forgot - he's one of the idiots who didn't read the Treaty.

You say the Treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. Yet I've seen many posters for the FF and others on the Yes side saying "Vote Yes for Jobs", "Vote yes for the Economy". Oh...sorry...I forgot again...they didn't read the Treaty.

So basically I'm being told to vote Yes by people who haven't read the Treaty. In that case, I'm definitely voting NO

major bill

dRNk SAnTA wrote: »

Every single parliament in europe will ratify the treaty - each EU country is a democracy. Thinking you'll be doing other countries a favour by voting against something they want is the height of arrogance.

how do you know they want it? were they asked? were they giving a referendum? eh no so we dont know if they do or they dont, all we know is the british were promised a referendum but didnt get one due to their government known too well that they would reject it.The dutch and the french both rejected the the same treaty.

Rb

ghost_ie wrote: »

Cowen and McCreevey being two of those idiots. Both admitted in the run-up to Lisbon I that they hadn't read the Treaty.

Cowen has repeatedly said that we're in an economic crisis because of the global economic downturn. Sorry - I forgot - he's one of the idiots who didn't read the Treaty.

You say the Treaty isn't designed to fix the economic crisis, it's to reform the structure of the Union. Yet I've seen many posters for the FF and others on the Yes side saying "Vote Yes for Jobs", "Vote yes for the Economy". Oh...sorry...I forgot again...they didn't read the Treaty.

So basically I'm being told to vote Yes by people who haven't read the Treaty. In that case, I'm definitely voting NO

If I had the advisors that Brian Cowen and Charlie McCreevey have, I doubt I'd bother reading the treaty myself. Their advisors are people far, far more savvy with such documents and could advise, as is their role, Cowen or whoever on what was contained in the text.

Personally if I had to choose between having our Taoiseach take time out of running the country right now to sit down and sift through the full treaty, and remain where he is and have a highly educated expert tell him the facts on it while he gets on with his job, I'd pick the latter.

Yes, we are in an economic crisis because of an global economic downturn, now how do past treaties relate to, or show cause of, said economic downturn?

Those slogans have been addressed previously and are more aspirational statements from the assumed increase in confidence a Yes result would return. They are, as has been said, a damn sight better than the signs that imply that voting Yes puts the lives of the elderly and babies in danger. A damn sight, and as I pointed out earlier, if you can't see and register that difference, then there's something very, very wrong.

major bill

I will ban anyone accusing moderators of bias in threads in this forum.

Anyone wishing to make a complaint about bias in this forum may do so here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=30. If you can clearly prove that a moderator is biased on here there believe me the admins will do something about it.

Doing it in a thread in this forum will get you banned. Please don't do it.
quote

so ban anybody that dears question the mods:rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick

marco_polo wrote: »

Ironically it was along the lines of butt out of an Irish referendum as I recall.

Whereas the opposite reaction was feel free to tell us how to vote (and we will feel free to lecture you on how to run your countries)

Have you come up with a number yet, I presume it is 100% mandatory referendums for all treaties, so you better get busy on those 26 seperate campaigns.

Me? I wasn't actually claiming that there should be referenda in this particular post, I was simply implying that even if you disagree with people who come to boards.ie and ask you to vote because they didn't get a referendum, you could at least be decent about it. It's the condescending manner in which such posters are treated which pisses me off, not the opinions people have about referenda.