Stop with the Lies... Please!

worldclass

What's Good World

I feel like I need to share this with everyone because it's despicable. It's also an opportunity to vent :rolleyes: - I live in the Nth Inner City and have been campaigning for a Yes vote over the past two weeks. It has been a challenge but I'm converting some No's to Yes purely based on correcting the myths.

Educational attainment isn't high in my community and certain political groups and campaigners take full advantage of the lack of understanding. Perfect example, My own Mother. She's hard working and a caring typical Dublin "Ma" She's always pushed me to better myself at her sacrifice. This is what happened yesterday.

When I went to visit her we talked about all the Lisbon flyers she's received, she told me that a canvasser and "very nice gentleman" from a No campaign group was chatting to her and told her that if she refused to vote on Friday, her vote would be an automatic Yes !! My response was WTF !! Is this seriously what this referendum has become?

The sad part is this was mentioned to me by a neighbour this evening as well.

It's disrespectful, insulting and really is a new low...

Goodnight all :mad:

Rb

That is disgusting.

However, having met people involved with various No organisations, I'm not surprised that they would sink to such a level. Do name the people behind this disgusting behaviour though.

What does it say about a party or organisation that they would let such people represent them on the streets? Absolutely pathetic.

I saw these up in town earlier, hadn't noticed them before. This treaty truly has brought all nutjobs from the fringe organsations out in full.

http://irishantiwar.org/files/upload-images/posters/irish-anti-war-leaflet.jpg

free-man

worldclass wrote: »

What's Good World

I feel like I need to share this with everyone because it's despicable. It's also an opportunity to vent :rolleyes: - I live in the Nth Inner City and have been campaigning for a Yes vote over the past two weeks. It has been a challenge but I'm converting some No's to Yes purely based on correcting the myths.

Educational attainment isn't high in my community and certain political groups and campaigners take full advantage of the lack of understanding. Perfect example, My own Mother. She's hard working and a caring typical Dublin "Ma" She's always pushed me to better myself at her sacrifice. This is what happened yesterday.

When I went to visit her we talked about all the Lisbon flyers she's received, she told me that a canvasser and "very nice gentleman" from a No campaign group was chatting to her and told her that if she refused to vote on Friday, her vote would be an automatic Yes !! My response was WTF !! Is this seriously what this referendum has become?

The sad part is this was mentioned to me by a neighbour this evening as well.

It's disrespectful, insulting and really is a new low...

Goodnight all :mad:

A disgrace, if that actually happened.

Did she find out who the campaigner was associated with?

Mrmoe

worldclass wrote: »

When I went to visit her we talked about all the Lisbon flyers she's received, she told me that a canvasser and "very nice gentleman" from a No campaign group was chatting to her and told her that if she refused to vote on Friday, her vote would be an automatic Yes !! My response was WTF !! Is this seriously what this referendum has become?

There is a certain amount of logic to this even if it is a little strained. By not voting for the side you think is correct you are effectively giving more value to the people who vote against it. I think what he might have been trying to say is that every vote counts albeit in a very round about way. I think you need more credit to your mother and the people of your locality. Just because someone comes from a deprived area or has not achieved a high education standard does not mean that they can see/think logically. I know many people with countless years of education who have warped logic at times, myself included.

worldclass

free-man wrote: »

A disgrace, if that actually happened.

Did she find out who the campaigner was associated with?

Sorry, should have specified, He was apart of a team of Coir Canvassers who hit the area last Friday

Guy:Incognito

The missus mother came out with that before Lisbon 1. I was fairly shocked that people we're being told that,

I'm back in college as part of my apprenticeship at the min and one of the lecturers was talkign bout Lisbon and askign was everyone going to vote . One guy actually stood up and said he was voting no because the minimum wage would be dropped to €1.84 if it's a yes. He wouldnt be convinced and his whoel reason for voting no was by pretty much quoting word for word the Libertas , Coir and SF posters.

squod

worldclass wrote: »

........It has been a challenge but I'm converting some No's to Yes purely based on correcting the myths.

Can't see how a yes vote follows on from correcting myths, dig a little deeper dude.

:rolleyes:

Rb

Oh ffs mrmoe, no, just no. It's quite obvious what the canvasser was at, stop apologising for these scumbags.

worldclass: Not surprised to hear it was Coir, the posterboys for abortion.

prinz

squod wrote: »

Can't see how a yes vote follows on from correcting myths, dig a little deeper dude.

:rolleyes:

Simple, the vast majority of reasons I have heard people give as reasons to vote no have been based on lies and nonsense. When people hear the truth they usually are pretty quick to switch sides. Got two people that way myself, both thinking their pay was going to drop to €1.84. That was their only basis for voting no.

Guy:Incognito

Mrmoe wrote: »

There is a certain amount of logic to this even if it is a little strained. By not voting for the side you think is correct you are effectively giving more value to the people who vote against it..

The majority of middle aged and older men and women who wont vote, will be doing so because they dont understand (their own fault for not reading up, just like anyone else) , scaremongering them into voting no is wrong. If it was explained to them properly or they read up on it properly the split would probably fall much in line with the rest of the populace. So telling them to vote no is as valid as tellign them to vote yes.

Sam Vimes

Mrmoe wrote: »

There is a certain amount of logic to this even if it is a little strained. By not voting for the side you think is correct you are effectively giving more value to the people who vote against it. I think what he might have been trying to say is that every vote counts albeit in a very round about way. I think you need more credit to your mother and the people of your locality. Just because someone comes from a deprived area or has not achieved a high education standard does not mean that they can see/think logically. I know many people with countless years of education who have warped logic at times, myself included.

If someone doesn't vote it's a vote for the winning side, whichever side that may be, because their vote might have swayed it had they voted the other way. If they were planning to vote for the side that won in the end, their vote would have just made them win by more. Please don't try to dress this up as anything other than a deliberate deception

turgon

A Coir campaigner rang my house a few days ago asking for my mother. Clearly she was trying to talk her into voting No, but my ma was out. Oh if she has started talking to me about Lisbon, that would have been fun

OP, your right to talk to your mother and soothe her concerns and I think everyone has a responsibility to do this considering the way the campaign has been fought. Ive brought it up a dinner a few times and answered a few persnickety questions from my folks about it.

People dont want to be led in by bull****, but its very easy for this to happen. Generally a few quiet words outlining why its a lie to the person concerned is enough to dispel it.

oscarBravo

A couple of "no" campaigners arrived at my doorstep yesterday. I honestly think I almost had them uncertain about how to vote by the time they left...

worldclass

Mrmoe wrote: »

There is a certain amount of logic to this even if it is a little strained. By not voting for the side you think is correct you are effectively giving more value to the people who vote against it. I think what he might have been trying to say is that every vote counts albeit in a very round about way. I think you need more credit to your mother and the people of your locality. Just because someone comes from a deprived area or has not achieved a high education standard does not mean that they can see/think logically. I know many people with countless years of education who have warped logic at times, myself included.

Valid point MrMoe, I have nothing but respect for my Community and hope to get into local politics going forward. I work with two youth development projects here in Dublin and encourage more teens to enter third level education. My views are expressed based on experience, I would never suggest that they can't think logically but a lot of people I know are intimidated by those who talk the talk and therefore are highly influenced.

brianthebard

Rb wrote: »

Oh ffs mrmoe, no, just no. It's quite obvious what the canvasser was at, stop apologising for these scumbags.

#

Where you there? If not then I suggest you refrain from putting words in peoples mouths.

prinz

brianthebard wrote: »

#
Where you there? If not then I suggest you refrain from putting words in peoples mouths.

Were you there? If not then I suggest you accept the words of the OP in what his / her mother was told, about a non-cast vote being counted as an automatic yes.

Colpriz

tis bad wording indeed by this campaigner, but some truth to what he is saying esp if the opn polls suggest 'yes' in this case to be ahead...

Anyone know/remember what % of the electorate actually came out & voted last time? Do they anticipate that % to go up or down? Some may be peeeed off having to vote again and not bother doing so...this also could be what this guy was getting at..

Mrmoe

Stekelly wrote: »

The majority of middle aged and older men and women who wont vote, will be doing so because they dont understand (their own fault for not reading up, just like anyone else) , scaremongering them into voting no is wrong. If it was explained to them properly or they read up on it properly the split would probably fall much in line with the rest of the populace. So telling them to vote no is as valid as tellign them to vote yes.

I wonder is this really the case. I know quite a few people who will not be voting not because they can not understand it or that they are not capable of understanding it but because they are purely lazy or couldn't give a toss. It would be the same for the Yes side. I always encourage people to vote regardless of what they would vote. I would probably be more passionate about someone voting than about either side of the treaty. People should vote fullstop. I would say equally to a person who was leaning to the Yes side that if they did not vote they are effectively giving a thumbs up for the No side. Apathy may not win you an election but it certainly can lose you one.

Guy:Incognito

Colpriz wrote: »

tis bad wording indeed by this campaigner, but some truth to what he is saying esp if the opn polls suggest 'yes' in this case to be ahead...

Anyone know/remember what % of the electorate actually came out & voted last time? Do they anticipate that % to go up or down? Some may be peeeed off having to vote again and not bother doing so...this also could be what this guy was getting at..

So why were they telling people the same thing before Lisbon 1?

The missus mother is in Clondalkin btw, so probably safe to assume its not the same guy tellign the lies.

Mrmoe

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Please don't try to dress this up as anything other than a deliberate deception

I do think this was deception. I have never come across anyone in my life who would have thought that by not voting that a default yes vote would have been selected for them, and I have come across some head cases in my time.

Rb

prinz wrote: »

Were you there? If not then I suggest you accept the words of the OP in what his / her mother was told, about a non-cast vote being counted as an automatic yes.

Absolutely.

Again, people need to stop apologising for these dirtbags. When the lies of such scum are corrected, the person receiving them will be just put off what is quite a fun process as a result as they won't know who to trust in future.

squod

prinz wrote: »

Simple, the vast majority of reasons I have heard people give as reasons to vote no have been based on lies and nonsense. When people hear the truth they usually are pretty quick to switch sides. Got two people that way myself, both thinking their pay was going to drop to €1.84. That was their only basis for voting no.

So then enlighten them, tell them the real reasons they should vote no.

squod

Colpriz wrote: »

tis bad wording indeed by this campaigner, but some truth to what he is saying esp if the opn polls suggest 'yes' in this case to be ahead...

Anyone know/remember what % of the electorate actually came out & voted last time? Do they anticipate that % to go up or down? Some may be peeeed off having to vote again and not bother doing so...this also could be what this guy was getting at..

53%

Colpriz

Stekelly wrote: »

So why were they telling people the same thing before Lisbon 1?

The missus mother is in Clondalkin btw, so probably safe to assume its not the same guy tellign the lies.

and what about the lies on the 'yes' side?..We'll be marginalised in europe, Europe cant move fwd, its good for jobs???..politics is dirty my friend..

Sam Vimes

Mrmoe wrote: »

I do think this was deception. I have never come across anyone in my life who would have thought that by not voting that a default yes vote would have been selected for them, and I have come across some head cases in my time.

Grand so

Kidchameleon

Hi Op

I was told the exact vise versa by a yes campaigner yesterday, stop the lies indeed

Rb

Colpriz wrote: »

and what about the lies on the 'yes' side?..We'll be marginalised in europe, Europe cant move fwd, its good for jobs???..politics is dirty my friend..

Lol, I sincerely hope you're not equating comments like "Vote Yes for Jobs" with the disgusting tactics employed towards the OP's mother.

Mrmoe

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Grand so

If only everyone was so cordial this would be a nicer place. You are a gent.

Rb

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Hi Op

I was told the exact vise versa by a yes campaigner yesterday, stop the lies indeed

Name of party involved and area concerned?

Guy:Incognito

Colpriz wrote: »

and what about the lies on the 'yes' side?..We'll be marginalised in europe, Europe cant move fwd, its good for jobs???..politics is dirty my friend..

Was that an answer to my question or just you deflecting?

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

Lol, I sincerely hope you're not equating comments like "Vote Yes for Jobs" with the disgusting tactics employed towards the OP's mother.

lies are lies..how are they digusting? unless you agree with op that because she comes from a les well off area that she hasnt a mind of her own?

Rb

Colpriz wrote: »

lies are lies..how are they digusting? unless you agree with op that because she comes from a les well off area that she hasnt a mind of her own?

Okily dokily, irrational I see, onto ignore ye go. Good luck.

rebelmind

worldclass wrote: »

What's Good World

I feel like I need to share this with everyone because it's despicable. It's also an opportunity to vent :rolleyes: - I live in the Nth Inner City and have been campaigning for a Yes vote over the past two weeks. It has been a challenge but I'm converting some No's to Yes purely based on correcting the myths.

Educational attainment isn't high in my community and certain political groups and campaigners take full advantage of the lack of understanding. Perfect example, My own Mother. She's hard working and a caring typical Dublin "Ma" She's always pushed me to better myself at her sacrifice. This is what happened yesterday.

When I went to visit her we talked about all the Lisbon flyers she's received, she told me that a canvasser and "very nice gentleman" from a No campaign group was chatting to her and told her that if she refused to vote on Friday, her vote would be an automatic Yes !! My response was WTF !! Is this seriously what this referendum has become?

The sad part is this was mentioned to me by a neighbour this evening as well.

It's disrespectful, insulting and really is a new low...

Goodnight all :mad:

I do not believe a word of this.

Sam Vimes

rebelmind wrote: »

I do not believe a word of this.

Yes indeed, the people who are trying to scare us with tales of 200 billion in fisheries, abortion and EUthanasia would never sink to lying about this :rolleyes:

The Volt

No voters tend not to believe anything inconvenient to their point, if this forum is anything to go by.

Pride Fighter

Yes the OP encountered some lies. What about the lies linking a yes vote to jobs and economic recovery. Both sides are lying but the yes sides lies are disgraceful.

rebelmind

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes indeed, the people who are trying to scare us with tales of 200 billion in fisheries

Actually it's more like 100 billion.
Ireland has still been ripped off by the EU, ask any fisherman.

, abortion and EUthanasia

those are not relevant to the actual document of the treaty, so agreed there.

would never sink to lying about this :rolleyes:

You joking?
Were the Yes to Jobs/Europe/Recovery posters to be believed, all the country has to do is Vote YES & we have have no unemployed, instant economic recovery & nirvana.

Rb

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes indeed, the people who are trying to scare us with tales of 200 billion in fisheries, abortion and EUthanasia would never sink to lying about this :rolleyes:

Ignore him, I've asked him 4 times to back up his statement that we've been bullied in various threads and he has ignored anything that he's challenged over.

The Volt

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Yes the OP encountered some lies. What about the lies linking a yes vote to jobs and economic recovery. Both sides are lying but the yes sides lies are disgraceful.

How much can one say in a poster? It's an opinion that a yes vote will bring jobs. €1.84 after lisbon can't be an opinion because it's impossible. ICTU, IBEC, IFA etc etc etc all believe a yes vote is the right option for businesses and workers. If businesses are to prosper then employment would follow.

Colpriz

Rb wrote: »

Ignore him, I've asked him 4 times to back up his statement that we've been bullied in various threads and he has ignored anything that he's challenged over.

back up your own lies in this thread or mis_hoppings of truth..or let me ask you why are you voting YES? I am for the debate

Pride Fighter

Voltwad wrote: »

How much can one say in a poster? It's an opinion that a yes vote will bring jobs. €1.84 after lisbon can't be an opinion because it's impossible. ICTU, IBEC, IFA etc etc etc all believe a yes vote is the right option for businesses and workers. If businesses are to prosper then employment would follow.

Both are lies though.

anonymous_joe

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Yes the OP encountered some lies. What about the lies linking a yes vote to jobs and economic recovery. Both sides are lying but the yes sides lies are disgraceful.

Both sides lies are disgraceful.

I find things like the lies about abortion, conscription, commissioners, etc disgraceful.

It sickens me that both sides have many liars.

Pride Fighter

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Both sides lies are disgraceful.

I find things like the lies about abortion, conscription, commissioners, etc disgraceful.

It sickens me that both sides have many liars.

Me too and I fully agree.

The Volt

This sequence of posts again for me, sums up the no side on boards (most of them).

Originally Posted by Pride Fighter
Yes the OP encountered some lies. What about the lies linking a yes vote to jobs and economic recovery. Both sides are lying but the yes sides lies are disgraceful.

Originally Posted by Voltwad
How much can one say in a poster? It's an opinion that a yes vote will bring jobs. €1.84 after lisbon can't be an opinion because it's impossible. ICTU, IBEC, IFA etc etc etc all believe a yes vote is the right option for businesses and workers. If businesses are to prosper then employment would follow.

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Both are lies though.

Red Sleeping Beauty

These tit for tat things are quite tedious to read. There really is an assumption here that it's only the no "side" lying and the vague threats of "uncertainty" from the yes "side" are grand cause they're only vague theories on what might happen. The govt. could quite easily put to rest any uncertainty (as could Barosso but he chose to pedal the same fear tactics) but I assume they believe it helps their campaign for people to be afraid to vote no.

It makes no sense why multinational corporations would make any business decisions based on a possible "no" result in this referendum. If the Treaty is rejected then these corporations will still have access to the EU market as Ireland will still be a part of the EU and it's likely that the next govt. will be made up of a majority of either FF, FG or Lab. The only real shift in political allegiances here was in the local/euro elections where Higgins was elected as MEP and PBP got a few council seats. The govt. could reaffirm it commitment to the EU with or without this thing passing.

With regards to Coir telling an old woman that if she refuses to vote then there'll be an auto yes vote. You could say the same the other way around. The yes campaigners, voters and posters here must worried of people voting no again either because they don't understand the Treaty or because of reasons not in it (which is apparently the two reasons why everyone voted no last time). I've seen posts on this site from people suggesting that if you don't know, then don't bother voting. I'd say it's likely that if there's a lower voter turnout it may help the yes vote.

Don't forget, the task here has been to get the 752,451 people who voted yes last time to vote yes again and to get about a hundred and something thousand of the 862,415 who voted no last time to vote yes. Apparently the main reason people didn't vote last time was because they didn't fully understand the referendum so if the "yes" campaign has managed to persuade the previous no voters to vote yes then you'd assume they'll have also convinced a number of people who didn't vote to show up and vote yes this time.

The Volt

Alan Rouge wrote: »

I've seen posts on this site from people suggesting that if you don't know, then don't bother voting. I'd say it's likely that if there's a lower voter turnout it may help the yes vote.

As opposed to 'if you don't know, vote no' which would you prefer? People to vote irresponsibly or not at all?

Red Sleeping Beauty

No if there's a survey or poll after this thing and it shows that X amount of people voted yes on informed decisions then I'd accept that as democracy.

For what it's worth I'm of the opinion or assumption that it'll pass.

Sam Vimes

Alan Rouge wrote: »

It makes no sense why multinational corporations would make any business decisions based on a possible "no" result in this referendum.

The thing though that you're saying one thing and the heads of the multinational corporations are saying another. You can say it doesn't make sense all you want but the people you're talking about disagree with you