Hypothetically

My name is URL

If everyone in the EU had a vote on Lisbon, would the majority be in favor or against it?

Are there any estimations available as to what the answer would be?

I know people will say that it's no concern of ours and we shouldn't care but that's really a cop-out, considering that the Pro-Lisbon side are all for a closer knit Europe.

Any thoughts?

prinz

I don't know what everyone in the EU thinks. Pointless argument. Hypothetically everyone in the EU wants to have a fancy dress Friday.

moogester

There are figures somewhere....i'll try to find them.

SIXTEEN MONTHS ago, Ireland was the most popular nation in Europe. As news of our No vote spread, we were cheered across the continent. Bouquets of flowers were handed in to startled receptionists in our embassies. Crowds waved “Thank you Ireland” placards.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0924/1224255125058.html

My name is URL

prinz wrote: »

I don't know what everyone in the EU thinks. Pointless argument. Hypothetically everyone in the EU wants to have a fancy dress Friday.

It's not pointless, if you're going to champion Europe you should at least spare a thought for other Europeans, imo

prinz

moogester wrote: »

There are figures somewhere....i'll try to find them.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0924/1224255125058.html

You are using an opinion piece by Declan Ganley as what? Evidence of reality? Keep clutching.

prinz

My name is URL wrote: »

It's not pointless, if you're going to champion Europe you should at least spare a thought for other Europeans, imo

There's a difference between sparing a thought for other Europeans and hypothetically claiming to know what other Europeans think. Get it? What's the point in hypothetic guesses about what other people may or may not want?

My name is URL

prinz wrote: »

There's a difference between sparing a thought for other Europeans and hypothetically claiming to know what other Europeans think. Get it? What's the point in hypothetic guesses about what other people may or may not want?

I asked whether there was any estimates available, the hypothetical part is only about them having a vote

moogester

prinz wrote: »

You are using an opinion piece by Declan Ganley as what? Evidence of reality? Keep clutching.

Doesnt matter who wrote it.......the points he is making are valid.

prinz

moogester wrote: »

Doesnt matter who wrote it.......the points he is making are valid.

What points? It is an OPINION piece, with no back up, completely full of unverifiable conjecture.

ei.sdraob

moogester wrote: »

Doesnt matter who wrote it.......the points he is making are valid.

dude seriously :eek:

are you that gullible

if i write that there are 0 people around the EU interested in Lisbon, would you listen to me? without me providing any references to backup my opinion?

is Declan Ganley's opinion sacred and infallible or something in your eyes?

?

humanji

Is the treaty that much of an issue in other countries? Other than the odd "foreign" hit and run posters here, I haven't really heard many other countries making such a fuss about it as Ireland has. Britain maybe a close run thing if they vote and I wouldnt' want to guess which way it'll go. But in other countries, all I've really heard against the treaty has come from their countries equivelants of Coir or Libertas.

Is anyone here a little more travelled and know what others in the EU even think? (which, while re-reading, has come out as basically the OP's question, so my answer is, I don't know. ).

OldJay

A Irish Military Industrialist called Declan wrote: »

All I’m saying is that we should take with a pinch of salt arguments from those who plainly have a personal stake in the project

Ironic, Ganley says that.
What a misleading u-bendworthy pack of lies that op-ed is. Nothing new that hasn't been disproven.

Euro_Kraut

My name is URL wrote: »

I asked whether there was any estimates available, the hypothetical part is only about them having a vote

Libertas mounted a campaign across Europe advocating that the European Parliament elections be used as a proxy by voters who wanted the Lisbon treaty rejected.

Out of 300 candidates 1 got elected. Across the EU they received less that 0.1% of the vote. That to me gives an indication of the feelings of Europeans regarding the Lisbon treaty i.e. either they support it or, most likely, are completly indifferent to it.

prinz

humanji wrote: »

Is the treaty that much of an issue in other countries?

I know that in France and Germany it's not. Barely registers with them at all over there. Complete opposite to the 'oppressed masses' being put forward by Libertas etc. The decision has been made, the Treaty is largely gone from the mainstream in those countries anyway.

PopeBuckfastXVI

It's not Lisbon, but given that it's similar (and many 'no' proponents claim it's more or less identical), a majority of Europeans who voted on the European Constitution approved it.

109494 in Luxembourg For, 84221 Against (link)
10,804,464 in Spain For, 2,428,409 Against (link)
12,806,394 in France For, 15,450,279 Against (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005#Results)
2,940,730 in The Netherlands For, 4,705,685 Against (link)
Leaving:
Total 26,661,082 For, 22668594 Against.

Adding in the Irish Lisbon result of 752,451 For and 862,415 Against (link)
Gives totals of 27413533 For, 23531009 Against. Still a clear majority in favour, 53.81% in Favour, 46.19 Against

squod

There's 'hearsay' that it wouldn't pass, and my guess is it wouldn't either.

Some quotes;

Charlie McCreevy,
[Lisbon] 'would have been rejected in most countries had they followed Ireland's example and held a referendum on it last year, EU Commissioner Charlie McCreevy said today.[Not dated] Mr McCreevy drew criticism last year for saying just weeks before Ireland's referendum that he had not read the entire treaty and did not expect "any sane, sensible person" to do so in their free time.


And from the no side;



Professor Dietrich Murswiek from the University of Freiburg said that the media had given the “completely wrong impression” of the ruling on the Lisbon Treaty by the German Constitutional Court. He said that the Court didn’t approve of the Treaty, because it damaged German democracy and sovereignty. The only way it could be passed, Murswick said, was if Germany adopted reforms which would “repair” the damage the Treaty did to national democracy. He said that since the Irish had not taken any similar measures, the Irish people should vote No to the Treaty on democracy grounds.

PopeBuckfastXVI

prinz wrote: »

I know that in France and Germany it's not. Barely registers with them at all over there. Complete opposite to the 'oppressed masses' being put forward by Libertas etc. The decision has been made, the Treaty is largely gone from the mainstream in those countries anyway.

I spent a couple of weeks travelling in Spain, France and Italy at the end of August. Nobody mentioned the treaty to me, not one, including a particular gentleman who made his opinions of the Irish economy, international banking sector, Israel and Immigrants of a different skin colour very clear. Didn't mention Lisbon though.

PopeBuckfastXVI

squod wrote: »

There's 'hearsay' that it wouldn't pass, and my guess is it wouldn't either.

Some quotes;

Charlie McCreevy,
[Lisbon] 'would have been rejected in most countries had they followed Ireland's example and held a referendum on it last year, EU Commissioner Charlie McCreevy said today.[Not dated] Mr McCreevy drew criticism last year for saying just weeks before Ireland's referendum that he had not read the entire treaty and did not expect "any sane, sensible person" to do so in their free time.


And from the no side;



Professor Dietrich Murswiek from the University of Freiburg said that the media had given the “completely wrong impression” of the ruling on the Lisbon Treaty by the German Constitutional Court. He said that the Court didn’t approve of the Treaty, because it damaged German democracy and sovereignty. The only way it could be passed, Murswick said, was if Germany adopted reforms which would “repair” the damage the Treaty did to national democracy. He said that since the Irish had not taken any similar measures, the Irish people should vote No to the Treaty on democracy grounds.

A majority of Europeans approved the constitution, and a majority of Europeans would approve Lisbon, given the chance. They don't have a voice, but you do. Vote Yes on their behalf.

There you go, you can quote me as an authority instead of McCreevy if you are looking for someone on the 'yes' side to quote. Or are you only interested in quote-mining things that appear to support your thesis?

prinz

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I spent a couple of weeks travelling in Spain, France and Italy at the end of August. Nobody mentioned the treaty to me, not one, including a particular gentleman who made his opinions of the Irish economy, international banking sector, Israel and Immigrants of a different skin colour very clear. Didn't mention Lisbon though.

Agree completely. I have family in France and an OH in Germany, and was in Germany myself not long ago. The Lisbon Treaty doesn't even register. Actually heard from one person in France that they presumed Lisbon had been passed long ago. The theory put forward that all of Europe is waiting on the side lines is nonsense.

squod

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

It's not Lisbon, but given that it's similar (and many 'no' proponents claim it's more or less identical), a majority of Europeans who voted on the European Constitution approved it.

109494 in Luxembourg For, 84221 Against (link)
10,804,464 in Spain For, 2,428,409 Against (link)
12,806,394 in France For, 15,450,279 Against (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005#Results)
2,940,730 in The Netherlands For, 4,705,685 Against (link)
Leaving:
Total 26,661,082 For, 22668594 Against.

Adding in the Irish Lisbon result of 752,451 For and 862,415 Against (link)
Gives totals of 27413533 For, 23531009 Against. Still a clear majority in favour, 53.81% in Favour, 46.19 Against

And to put it more clearly 3 out the 5 nations polled rejected it.

bonkey

prinz wrote: »

Hypothetically everyone in the EU wants to have a fancy dress Friday.

I don't.

Oh...wait...I'm in Switzerland.

Nevermnd.

prinz

squod wrote: »

And to put it more clearly 3 out the 5 nations polled rejected it.

How many nations have ratified the Lisbon Treaty? ..... shot...foot....

meglome

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

I spent a couple of weeks travelling in Spain, France and Italy at the end of August. Nobody mentioned the treaty to me, not one, including a particular gentleman who made his opinions of the Irish economy, international banking sector, Israel and Immigrants of a different skin colour very clear. Didn't mention Lisbon though.

I was in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and the UK over a period of weeks a couple months ago and not one person mentioned the Lisbon treaty in any way, shape or form. And I did talk to a lot of people.

ei.sdraob

squod wrote: »

And to put it more clearly 3 out the 5 nations polled rejected it.

and the op clearly was refering to people voting directly in referendums

My name is URL wrote: »

If everyone in the EU had a vote on Lisbon, would the majority be in favor or against it?

..... shot... other foot....


/

squod

prinz wrote: »

How many nations have ratified the Lisbon Treaty? ..... shot...foot....

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

It's not Lisbon, but given that it's similar (and many 'no' proponents claim it's more or less identical), a majority of Europeans who voted on the European Constitution approved it.

109494 in Luxembourg For, 84221 Against (link)
10,804,464 in Spain For, 2,428,409 Against (link)
12,806,394 in France For, 15,450,279 Against (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005#Results)
2,940,730 in The Netherlands For, 4,705,685 Against (link)
Leaving:
Total 26,661,082 For, 22668594 Against.

Adding in the Irish Lisbon result of 752,451 For and 862,415 Against (link)
Gives totals of 27413533 For, 23531009 Against. Still a clear majority in favour, 53.81% in Favour, 46.19 Against

Tell him that so.

Why bother...........:rolleyes:

squod

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and the op clearly was refering to people voting directly in referendums



..... shot... other foot....


/

Which again doesn't answer his question. :rolleyes:

PopeBuckfastXVI

squod wrote: »

And to put it more clearly 3 out the 5 nations polled rejected it.

Which is actually less clear in the context of the OP's question:

If everyone in the EU had a vote on Lisbon, would the majority be in favor or against it?

prinz

squod wrote: »

Tell him that so.

Why bother...........:rolleyes:

You've obviously missed my point, but I'm not suprised. There are so many things going over people's heads on this forum they are going to need their own personal ATC soon.

ei.sdraob

squod wrote: »

Which again doesn't answer his question. :rolleyes:

popebuckfast has provided the OP with facts and figures, hence answering the OPs question

just because these figures dont fit into your worldview

or havent been made by His Majesty "Ganley The Great" in an opinion piece

doesnt make them false


but carry on nevertheless, overwhelming facts and evidence against their illogical position has not stopped the Creationists NO campaigners before

Boskowski

With regards to you people going to other countries and no one mentions Lisbon to you - you mustn't forget that we're politically interested people here. Prove is our very presence on this forum.
Your average punter in England, Spain, Germany or even here in Ireland is not. The vast majority take the little political information they're interested in - if any - from their mainstream media (Sun etc, RTE at best) and thats as far it goes for most people.

As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'

squod

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Which is actually less clear in the context of the OP's question:

If everyone in the EU had a vote on Lisbon, would the majority be in favor or against it?

FFS.....

Again, how many countries could hypothetically vote? The indicators are that three of the five nations asked about a similar treaty rejected it.

Project those figures however you want. So far that's the pattern or trend in voting, 3/5 nations rejecting it.

OldJay

realcam wrote: »

As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'

You do realise that an internet forum is not really the real world, don't you? U
nfortunately some don't seem to be able to tell the difference and if caught arguing away from their PC are absolutely stumped as they can't google or wiki their retorts.

PopeBuckfastXVI

realcam wrote: »

With regards to you people going to other countries and no one mentions Lisbon to you - you mustn't forget that we're politically interested people here. Prove is our very presence on this forum.
Your average punter in England, Spain, Germany or even here in Ireland is not. The vast majority take the little political information they're interested in - if any - from their mainstream media (Sun etc, RTE at best) and thats as far it goes for most people.

As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'

Well here's the thing, we're not being continually begged to do what politically motivated people on political boards want, we're being continually being begged to do what the apolitical disinterested masses supposedly want, and usually, coincidentally, they happen to 'want' the exact same thing as the person doing the begging.

The fact remains, when given a vote, on the constitution or lisbon, the majority of Europeans have said yes!

Scofflaw

squod wrote: »

FFS.....

Again, how many countries could hypothetically vote? The indicators are that three of the five nations asked about a similar treaty rejected it.

Project those figures however you want. So far that's the pattern or trend in voting, 3/5 nations rejecting it.

No, 2/4 countries rejected something similar which was then renegotiated to remove the bits that were offensive.

cordially,
Scofflaw

prinz

realcam wrote: »

With regards to you people going to other countries and no one mentions Lisbon to you - you mustn't forget that we're politically interested people here. Prove is our very presence on this forum.
Your average punter in England, Spain, Germany or even here in Ireland is not.

Er, ta but I generally talk to people who are politically 'interested'. One of the people I talked to in Germany was a candidate in the weekend's elections. :rolleyes:. Guess what? Lisbon wasn't even a side thought with him. The French are a hugely politically interested people.

squod

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, 2/4 countries rejected something similar which was then renegotiated to remove the bits that were offensive.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Oh God................:rolleyes:

Boskowski

Justind wrote: »

You do realise that an internet forum is not really the real world, don't you? U
nfortunately some don't seem to be able to tell the difference and if caught arguing away from their PC are absolutely stumped as they can't google or wiki their retorts.

I'm actually very annoyed with your comment Justin. Your attention span doesn't seem to be great. Or did you simply miss/ignore the bit where I declared this to be anecdotal evidence myself? Or don't you know what 'anecdotal' means?

OldJay

realcam wrote: »

I'm actually very annoyed with your comment Justin. Your attention span doesn't seem to be great. Or did you simply miss/ignore the bit where I declared this to be anecdotal evidence myself? Or don't you know what 'anecdotal' means?

You mentioned the "consensus" on an internet forum so you got an appropriate answer that explained my point of view on the matter.

Annoyed? Whatever.

Boskowski

Justind wrote: »

You mentioned the "consensus" on an internet forum so you got an appropriate answer that explained my point of view on the matter.

Annoyed? Whatever.

You still don't get it? Look up 'anecdotal evidence'.

hatrickpatrick

I have only one question for this thread:

SIXTEEN MONTHS ago, Ireland was the most popular nation in Europe. As news of our No vote spread, we were cheered across the continent. Bouquets of flowers were handed in to startled receptionists in our embassies. Crowds waved “Thank you Ireland” placards.

Is that true or is it made up?
Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

My name is URL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have only one question for this thread:



Is that true or is it made up?
Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

Well I don't know about the flowers been handed to receptionists but I was in Italy a few days after the first referendum and people seemed genuinely happy that Ireland had not buckled under pressure and voted Yes, though I only spoke to people that I already knew, so not a general cross section of the population.

On various YouTube videos, the comments left by people from all over Europe directly after the result was announced seemed to be mostly positive regarding Ireland's No vote, again not a cross section but certainly an indicator imo

prinz

realcam wrote: »

As anecdotal as all the other 'evidence', but I'm reading on German politics boards too and the consensus after the German president recently ratified Lisbon is: 'Now we can only hope the Irish do the right thing again.'

Could you link the German boards indicating this consensus please?

hatrickpatrick

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, 2/4 countries rejected something similar which was then renegotiated to remove the bits that were offensive.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Corrected:

"2/4 countries rejected something almost identical which was then renegotiated to remove the bits which forced the governments to ask the people for their choice instead of passing it without a referendum"

PopeBuckfastXVI

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Corrected:

"2/4 countries rejected something almost identical which was then renegotiated to remove the bits which forced the governments to ask the people for their choice instead of passing it without a referendum"

What bits forced those governments to hold a referendum hatrickpatrick?

PopeBuckfastXVI

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have only one question for this thread:



Is that true or is it made up?
Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

I didn't get any flowers, speaking for myself...

Boskowski

prinz wrote: »

Could you link the German boards indicating this consensus please?

sure, have a look here for instance

http://www.heise.de/tp/foren/S-Irland-stimmt-gegen-EU-Vertrag/forum-138982/list/

PopeBuckfastXVI

My name is URL wrote: »

Well I don't know about the flowers been handed to receptionists but I was in Italy a few days after the first referendum and people seemed genuinely happy that Ireland had not buckled under pressure and voted Yes, though I only spoke to people that I already knew, so not a general cross section of the population.

On various YouTube videos, the comments left by people from all over Europe directly after the result was announced seemed to be mostly positive regarding Ireland's No vote, again not a cross section but certainly an indicator imo

Self selecting indicator, which is next to useless.

Again, in actual votes, more EU Citizens voted for either the constitution or Lisbon, than voted against either.

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Corrected:

"2/4 countries rejected something almost identical which was then renegotiated to remove the bits which forced the governments to ask the people for their choice instead of passing it without a referendum"

With reference to the relevant constitutitional requirements and domestic law of both countries, could you hightlight the parts of the EU Constitution that were removed in order to avoid what you believe to be the legal trigger conditions for a referendum in France and the Netherlands.

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Is that true or is it made up?
Yes or no? Anyone have any info on that?

Good question. I have yet to find any verifiable evidence.

My name is URL

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Self selecting indicator, which is next to useless.

Again, in actual votes, more EU Citizens voted for either the constitution or Lisbon, than voted against either.

Out of the examples that you gave, which I appreciate

Look at all of the videos about Lisbon on YouTube and see how many people call for a No vote. It may not be officially correct but it's not self-selecting either, it's a free exchange of opinion in a relatively unbiased medium

moogester

prinz wrote: »

Good question. I have yet to find any verifiable evidence.

I dont suppose you'll be going out of your way to look for it either :rolleyes: