Ireland would join to this?

ei.sdraob

claudiog wrote: »

So the reason to trash the direct democracy is cause Hitler adopted a referendum to gain power? It is not because a true free information is fundamental to the execise of the democracy (either direct or representative)?

Your own nation was taken over by fascists thanks in part to direct democracy

Im surprised i have to give you a history lesson

claudiog wrote: »

It is not because a true free information is fundamental to the execise of the democracy (either direct or representative)?

Information is vital to any democracy you are correct,

but if you spend some time reading the posts here on this forum you would see there is a concerted effort by some in the NO campaign to ensure that people are kept in the dark so they can continue to spread lies along the lines of minimum wage, abortion, conscription, fisheries, death penalty! etc etc

some even go as far as glamorize ignorance by saying crap like
"if you dont know vote NO"

and some go even further accusing the independent and impartial Referendum Commission of bias

and yet others go of on a tangent altogether claiming that the Voting Card itself is biased :eek:

/

Stabshauptmann

Justind wrote: »

???
Methinks you're barking up the wrong Greek philosopher.
Plato surely?

You're not referring to the mob stoning Socrates are ye?

OldJay

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

You're not referring to the mob stoning Socrates are ye?

No.
Plato's definitions of democracy.

sceptre

Please.... everyone... stop mixing up the Greeks... it hurts and other people won't know that you're probably joking... they may never check it... Even Goscinny and Uderzo didn't mix up the Greeks

RepublicanEagle

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies & French,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon,I support what the EU has done for us,but they have earned millions from our fishing grounds,and placed quotas on agricultural goods that favor the big farmers all over France and Germany,the countries responsible for drafting up the CAP and CFP.Coincidence,I think not.However if the EU was to put people before profit in their policies and Lisbon,I would vote yes.
But this is not the case,it is beaucracy and profit before the people.
The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.I hate this governent in Ireland and their policies.Does that make me anti-Irish?I think not.The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?And where has the EU been within the last 12 months,where jobs are being lost left right and centre,along with the rising dole queues.Nowhere.
Remember what happened to Dell in Limerick who relocated to Poland after the Polish offered them hundreds of thousands of euro?The EU did nothing about it,nothing,because Poland is actually becoming very powerful industrially and militarily,therefore have strong political influence on the EU Commission and Council.
The reality is,the Lisbon treaty,will favor the powerful states,not the small states such as Ireland.I guarantee that any citizen with any shred of civic responsibilty and intelligence,will know that this will repeat itself,if this referendum is passed.Before you vote read this treaty,most of have not,you follow the government like cattle to the slaughter,even after what they have done to us.Shame on all of you.

Sam Vimes

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.

Where ever did they get that idea :P

Group | Accession | SEA | Maastricht | Amsterdam | Nice | Lisbon
| | | | | |
Sinn Fein | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Socialist Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Workers' Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Socialist Workers' Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
P McKenna | - | - | NO | NO | NO | NO
Anthony Coughlan/National Platform | - | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
COIR/YD/SPUC | - | - | NO | NO | NO | NO
PANA | - | - | - | NO | NO | NO

robindch

claudiog wrote: »

an opressive superstate in which you are merely a gear.

Better than being a crank though.

hatrickpatrick

claudiog wrote: »

EU might be a wonderful thing if only would be a loose confederation, where only common market, defense, and may be money, are the glue to keep toghether the peoples of the Europe.

Taxes competition, which is proved to be the fuel for the public efficency, is increasingly smashed by the member states that are very far to be efficent, for instance the big states such as Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and the UK.

EU is going to ensemble similar to the US, where secessionist movements are dramatically growing (see Vermount, Texas, the "free county", the FSP in New Hampshire, and many others), an opressive superstate in which you are merely a gear.

Ireland would join to all that?

This is PRECISELY my fear about Lisbon. The EU used to be a "loose confederation" of economics, but it is indeed becoming far too politically powerful.

StealthRolex

Furious-Dave wrote: »

Sure they can speak out anytime they want, but usually most people just ignore them. However, it's clear that a lot of the electorate don't want to have to inform themselves on what they are voting for, and are looking for others to inform them. It's in these circumstances that direct democracy is dangerous. Because the groups with agendas taint the truth, or just outright lie, in order to achieve their goals.
Don't get me wrong though. I'm no fan of politicians, and certainly not the current government. And I agree with your point on a salary cap.

Well, they're not armed and their "danger" can only manifest if no one opposes them with an alternative agenda or picks holes in their arguments. Indeed some would say they add colour to an otherwise bland Irish political landscape and they may even be necessary to encourage debate in an environment where the overwhelming political message is "Vote Yes or else".

The fact that outright lies exist is neither here nor there with this debate as the lies are evident on both sides - some glaringly obvious, others subtle propaganda. Occasionally blatant threats and bribery. I note that Sarkozy has not threatened Ireland this time but his form of diplomacy and democratic principles do not preclude him threatening the Czech governement with "consequences" if they fail to ratify the Treaty.

Much has been made of the Coir lie regarding minimum wages. Nothing has been made of the Coir poster explaining the reduction in Irish voting rights against the increase in German voting rights. So this must be true. Proponents when put on the spot argue that this is necessary due to the size of the expanding EU membership. Why not change the voting structure so that each soverign state has one vote? Does it matter that Ireland has a smaller population than Germany? If we're talking "representative democracy" then each MEP represents an election win regardless of how many voted. Providing Germany with more votes than Ireland simply because it has more people is a indicator that Europe is moving to a less democratic position where larger states have more power and influence than smaller states. What happens when Turkey joins with it's population?

If you really want to stop agendas such as those proposed by Coir, Libertas and SF you will have to start considering dictatorship rather that argue against a particular form of democracy.

Finally - what about the agendas of FF, FG, GP, big business, multinationals, farmers, banks and all the other groups calling for a Yes? The agendas of these organisations have been suspect for some time.

MarkK

claudiog wrote: »

It seems in Switzerland does, very well!

Women in Switzerland were not allowed to vote until 1971, because a referendum was required to allow it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/7/newsid_2738000/2738475.stm

StealthRolex

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think that would be the case. The possibility of feathering one's nest in politics is not simply a matter of salary, and a higher salary actually gives politicians more to lose if they are caught.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Only if they take away their pension and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there are many examples of former Irish politicians being caught and winding up in the poor house.

ei.sdraob

StealthRolex wrote: »

Much has been made of the Coir lie regarding minimum wages. Nothing has been made of the Coir poster explaining the reduction in Irish voting rights against the increase in German voting rights. So this must be true.

Infallible logic there :eek:

btw the voting weights has been discussed to death here

/

claudiog

Thanks HatrickPatrick, at last one who fully understood the meaning of my post!

@ei.sdraob :

Your own nation was taken over by fascists thanks in part to direct democracy

Im surprised i have to give you a history lesson

I know very well the history, don't worry for me. My nation (which is not Italy) was taken becuase people were NOT informed, for the simple reason that, at least, they in large majority don't had understanding of italian!

There are other things that should be mentioned with regard to that time, but for what I'm concerned today, this is the only useful reply that I wanna place here.

StealthRolex

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Infallible logic there :eek:

btw the voting weights has been discussed to death here

/

I had the news media, radio and tellyvisual things in mind that provide information to a wider audience than the limited readership here.

prinz

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies & French,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon,I support what the EU has done for us,but they have earned millions from our fishing grounds,and placed quotas on agricultural goods that favor the big farmers all over France and Germany,the countries responsible for drafting up the CAP and CFP.

Ireland has been a net beneficiary. What you're saying is Ireland received €10 but gave back €4 so we're quits*. You may notice the farmers of many of the "big countries" are the ones destroying milk etc recently. I don't think they are being in any way favoured.

*example, not representative.

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Coincidence,I think not.However if the EU was to put people before profit in their policies and Lisbon,I would vote yes.
But this is not the case,it is beaucracy and profit before the people.
The Yes campaign are advocating that the No side,is anti European.That is pure and utter tripe.I hate this governent in Ireland and their policies.Does that make me anti-Irish?I think not.

You may see the table above. A lot of the same people against Lisbon have never supported a European treaty. Ever. Were they all wrong? Add in Libertas who want a federal union modeled directly after the United States of Europe.. how big will Ireland's voice be then I wonder.

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

The Yes people who are voting,are under the delusion that it will create jobs and bring economic recovery?Where in the Treaty does it state that?And where has the EU been within the last 12 months,where jobs are being lost left right and centre,along with the rising dole queues.Nowhere.

Has been done to death.

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Remember what happened to Dell in Limerick who relocated to Poland after the Polish offered them hundreds of thousands of euro?The EU did nothing about it,nothing,because Poland is actually becoming very powerful industrially and militarily,therefore have strong political influence on the EU Commission and Council.

:eek: Why do you think the likes of Dell were here in the first place?

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

The reality is,the Lisbon treaty,will favor the powerful states,not the small states such as Ireland.I guarantee that any citizen with any shred of civic responsibilty and intelligence,will know that this will repeat itself,if this referendum is passed.

What will be repeated?

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Before you vote read this treaty,most of have not,you follow the government like cattle to the slaughter,even after what they have done to us.Shame on all of you.

:pac: I hate the way no voters assume that if you vote yes you are automatically pro-government etc etc.. the irony. For someone who, presumably you have read the Treaty.... you have no references to back up any of your post.

hatrickpatrick

claudiog wrote: »

Thanks HatrickPatrick, at last one who fully understood the meaning of my post!

Oh I think you'd find that plenty more understood it, but yes campaigners have an interesting habit of ignoring that core issue and concentrating on other issues which are "easy" to deal with.

I have yet to encounter one single yes campaigner who actually agrees that the EU shouldn't have political power over non-economic domestic policy, even though that is all we actually signed up to by joining the EU in the first place...

Sam Vimes

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have yet to encounter one single yes campaigner who actually agrees that the EU shouldn't have political power over non-economic domestic policy, even though that is all we actually signed up to by joining the EU in the first place...

Yes it is all we signed up to in the first place because that's all the EU was at the time. It has subsequently developed and we agreed through referendum to go along with it. I see no reason why economics should be singled out as the only thing that is of any benefit when shared between nations

marco_polo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Oh I think you'd find that plenty more understood it, but yes campaigners have an interesting habit of ignoring that core issue and concentrating on other issues which are "easy" to deal with.

I have yet to encounter one single yes campaigner who actually agrees that the EU shouldn't have political power over non-economic domestic policy, even though that is all we actually signed up to by joining the EU in the first place...

The evidence suggests otherwise Irish people have voted for increased non-economic co-operation four time already, on the SEA in 1987, Maastrict in 1992, Amsterdam in 1997 and Nice in 2002.

I strongly believe that we should be an EU member not just a member of the EEA (Which must be what you are suggesting Irish people want - as this in the only pure economic union in europe, like the League of Nations the EEC is long gone).

I think you are confusing your opinions on the EU with the opnions of the majority of Irish people on the EU.

Furious-Dave

I also believe that being part of a political as well as an economic union, like the EU, helps to keep countries in check. We all know that FF are corrupt, but isn't it better if they are being monitored by the EU in certain areas?

RepublicanEagle

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Where ever did they get that idea :P

Group | Accession | SEA | Maastricht | Amsterdam | Nice | Lisbon
| | | | | |
Sinn Fein | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Socialist Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Workers' Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
Socialist Workers' Party | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
P McKenna | - | - | NO | NO | NO | NO
Anthony Coughlan/National Platform | - | NO | NO | NO | NO | NO
COIR/YD/SPUC | - | - | NO | NO | NO | NO
PANA | - | - | - | NO | NO | NO

Links please.
I am amused how those statistics for P.McKenna were obtained seeming as she only recently became an independent,and was formally a Green Party member,yet you do not seem to have any stats about the Greens,Fianna Fail by anychance?

RepublicanEagle

I like what you did here,you practically dissected what I said,taking what I said out of context.

I am sure you can figure out,if you tried to read it,what situation would arise repeatedly following the increase in political power the bigger nations would have over attracting multinationals following the Lisbon treaty,when I mentioned the scenario with Dell.

prinz

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I like what you did here,you practically dissected what I said,taking what I said out of context.

I think this was for me, was it? I took your post piece by piece, how could it be 'out of context', everyone can see your post above

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am sure you can figure out,if you tried to read it,what situation would arise repeatedly following the increase in political power the bigger nations would have over attracting multinationals following the Lisbon treaty,when I mentioned the scenario with Dell.

Could you reform that sentence? I am having trouble making sense out of it tbh.

OldJay

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a student in UCC,doing a BA European Development Studies & French,and as a scholar in European economics and law,and from reading the treaty,I am voting No to Lisbon . . . etc etc

How does a young'un barely getting to grips with the adult world out there ever have the neck to tell people what they are and what they should do?
How old are you ffs?
It doesn't matter what you study right now. It doesn't qualify you for anything on this matter. All anyone needs to form an opinion on the Lisbon Treaty is a brain and the capacity to read with comprehension.

Fair enough if you vote 'No'. We've all made mistakes in our youth and later put them down to inexperience. Thats life.

RepublicanEagle

prinz wrote: »

:pac: I hate the way no voters assume that if you vote yes you are automatically pro-government etc etc.. the irony. For someone who, presumably you have read the Treaty.... you have no references to back up any of your post.

Very narrow-minded thinking you are displaying here,I was referring to the lies people in this country are believing,that the government happens to be regurgitating.And trust me I will have references posted later on,I do not have time to be posting links up,as I have class at the moment,until then good sirs I bid you all adieu.

rumour

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes it is all we signed up to in the first place because that's all the EU was at the time. It has subsequently developed and we agreed through referendum to go along with it. I see no reason why economics should be singled out as the only thing that is of any benefit when shared between nations

Therin lies the problem, the EU continues to grow by treaties etc we agreed to it by referendums.

• Nice 1: Ireland rejects it, thats supposed to be the end of it.
• Nice 2: we vote again, or until we got the right answer
• The constitution: everyone had to agree the French and Dutch didn't that was supposed to be the end of it.
• Lisbon Appeared: confiirmed as a rehashed constitution but now not requiring referenda in most countries. Ireland rejects it, thats supposed to be the end of it.
• Lisbon 2: Ireland vote again until you get the right answer and if you don't your doomed.

This litany of ignoring and circumventing previous agreements that everyone has the right to say no is a cause for concern. Moreso I would say than the actual contents of the Treaty.

Any intelligent person would quite reasonably ask what are we going to be asked to change next time, when we need a new treaty etc for whatever reason. On past record we appear to be heading continually to a more centralised form of government in Brussels despite the wishes of many people who at each new treaty it is insisted it will respect.

I am not saying the road to greater unification is good or bad but the methods and motivation to do so are not being made clear to people. The litany of reluctance to accept any deviation from the path to closer unity is a concern.

Maybe the people are to ignorant of the strategic influences that necissitate such a drive or maybe there is a hunger for power, one a source of unity the other a really bad foundation for unity but not necessarily bad. The increasing impression that nations must be forced over the line is not being explained in the context of an ultimate goal, therefore it comes accross as arrogant bullying. It also creates a major disconnect between the people and whoever is trying to motivate this path towards unity. Currently they are perceived rightly or wrongly as elitest politicans, unaccountable beaurocrats or big business.

This disconnect I believe is the biggest reason people will vote No. There is a table floating around accordingly representating the constitution of the No voters. Really do you believe this bunch of crack pots who cannot get elected in this country represent over 53% of the country that voted last year. If you do then you certainly are trying to circumvent democracy. But I sincerely doubt that you believe this.

Nowhere in the YES campaign has anyone debated how far is Europe going with this. If we were told Lisbon is the last treaty and thats it, i believe it would pass. Additionally if all the people of Europe voted on the same day (eliminating the parochial context) I believe we would have a favourable majority.

What is happening is something less than open and many people accross Europe have fears about where it is going next. None of this is addressed in our current debate. All the political assurances now stand against a litany of ignoring and circumventing democracy.

Going forward no matter what the outcome something must be done to eliminate this fear that 'my vote won't be respected'.

RepublicanEagle

Please,that should be easy to understand,you seem to be the only person with a problem with it,I don't have time to be repeating myself,to individuals who practically need logic and information spelt out to them.

prinz

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Very narrow-minded thinking you are displaying here,I was referring to the lies people in this country are believing,that the government happens to be regurgitating.And trust me I will have references posted later on,I do not have time to be posting links up,as I have class at the moment,until then good sirs I bid you all adieu.

Is that yet another attempt at a hit-and-run..?

Who says people who want to vote yes haven't read the Treaty? You are assuming they have not. On the other hand you complain about generalisations about the no side... hmmm. Go to your lectures. If you bump into Declan Walsh ask him about this will you like a good chap?

Sam Vimes

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Links please.
I am amused how those statistics for P.McKenna were obtained seeming as she only recently became an independent,and was formally a Green Party member,yet you do not seem to have any stats about the Greens,Fianna Fail by anychance?

I don't see what's so amusing. She had opinions before she left the greens

Scofflaw compiled the list so he'll have links if you ask him. I have no stats on FF but I think it's safe to assume they supported them all

Sam Vimes

rumour wrote: »

Therin lies the problem, the EU continues to grow by treaties etc we agreed to it by referendums.

Nice 1: Ireland rejects it, thats supposed to be the end of it.

I read only as far as here. That's not supposed to be the end of it, that's not how democracy works as the supreme court ruled a short while ago

RepublicanEagle

Justind wrote: »

How does a young'un barely getting to grips with the adult world out there ever have the neck to tell people what they are and what they should do?
How old are you ffs?
It doesn't matter what you study right now. It doesn't qualify you for anything on this matter. All anyone needs to form an opinion on the Lisbon Treaty is a brain and the capacity to read with comprehension.

Fair enough if you vote 'No'. We've all made mistakes in our youth and later put them down to inexperience. Thats life.

What point are you trying to make?You are clearly shallow and malicious if you are actually trying to make an attempt to drag the "age factor" into this.How pathetic that is of you to do so.

What qualifies one to discuss this matter?