Crossing Navan Road from Phoenix Park Racecourse

uma10

HI,
I live in Phoenix Park Racecourse and I am a public transport user. In order to get to city centre by bus, it is quite complicated to cross Navan Road, I have seen many people crossing the N3 risking their lives and jumping while the cars are passing at great speed.(The flyover is 15 minutes walk as well as the next traffic light which is a real waste of time as the bus stop and the train station are just at the other side of the road) I wonder if it would be a bad idea to install traffic lights to be able to cross the other side safely.

Victor

You might check what is included in the planning permission, especially the conditions. You could cycle to the train station and leave your bike there.

daymobrew

uma10 wrote: »

(The flyover is 15 minutes walk as well as the next traffic light which is a real waste of time as the bus stop and the train station are just at the other side of the road) I wonder if it would be a bad idea to install traffic lights to be able to cross the other side safely.

I am guessing that "the next traffic light" is the one at the entrance to Kempton.. If so, why is it waste of time? Surely it's perfectly placed - you cross the road and you arrive at the bus stop (unless you mean that it is inconvenient for those heading to Ashtown train station - which it certainly is).

It is difficult to accommodate pedestrians at roundabouts. If you put the crossings too close to the roundabout you will get traffic backed up onto the roundabout (and some motorists will block those going through to the roundabout). If the crossing is too far away then pedestrians will not use the crossing (and even a 5 metres can be too far away for some).

One solution could be to cut down the hedges on the Ashtown roundabout so that people can see the oncoming cars and make safer crossings. Even as a motorist or cyclist, you cannot see the other side of the roundabout because of the hedges.

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

HI,
I live in Phoenix Park Racecourse and I am a public transport user. In order to get to city centre by bus, it is quite complicated to cross Navan Road, I have seen many people crossing the N3 risking their lives and jumping while the cars are passing at great speed.(The flyover is 15 minutes walk as well as the next traffic light which is a real waste of time as the bus stop and the train station are just at the other side of the road) I wonder if it would be a bad idea to install traffic lights to be able to cross the other side safely.

I take it you want the traffic lights at the racecourse? It would be a very bad idea . You knew what it was like before you moved in .

uma10

The fact is that people are crossing and jumping they need to there is people living there and need to go to the pub, take the bus or the train station, there must be a solution for that, what about improving public transport behind the development in Castlenock road then or builiding a close bridge for them to cross?

Jip

As has been said, if they need to go the pub there's no need to cross the N3, just walk to the Halfway House, and if that establishment does not suit them there's a bus stop there.

uma10

That is what I am talking about, the HalfWay House is on the other side of Navan Road and it is not only a going to the pub problem there will be children having to go to school, it is a serious safety issue.

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

The fact is that people are crossing and jumping they need to there is people living there and need to go to the pub, take the bus or the train station, there must be a solution for that, what about improving public transport behind the development in Castlenock road then or builiding a close bridge for them to cross?

There is a path for them to go to the station with a bridge over the n3 and a path towards the halfway house and the bus stop with traffic lights.
Do you want a crossing to go across a dual carriage way or a bridge just so you can use the bus stop at the factory side?
If people are stupid enough to cross a busy dual carriageway then thats their problem.
This is a non issue.

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

That is what I am talking about, the HalfWay House is on the other side of Navan Road and it is not only a pub issue, there will be children having to go to school, it is a serious safety issue.

Did people not think of this before moving into the apartments?

There is a path and a crossing to the bus stop at the halfway house which is only a shot walk away.

Jip

uma10 wrote: »

That is what I am talking about, the HalfWay House is on the other side of Navan Road and it is not only a going to the pub problem there will be children having to go to school, it is a serious safety issue.

But how is it a problem ? Walk to the pedestrian crossing at the roundabout, cross over, and then take the next crossing at either Kempton or cross sooner if it's safe.

I may be wrong but there no school down towards Ashtown so the Kempton crossing would be fine. And if there is one they walk to towards Ashtown they can just walk that bit further, it'll do them good.

markpb

cymro wrote: »

Did people not think of this before moving into the apartments?

There is a path and a crossing to the bus stop at the halfway house which is only a shot walk away.

Are you trying to troll? Do you think the city has never changed to meet the demands of its residents? I would imagine if a significant number of people are finding it hard to cross the road, it would be worth examining the possibility of a flyover, underpass (although it's too late for that now) or traffic lights.

Jip

There is a fly over, it's just not convenient enough for them.

uma10

markpb wrote: »

Are you trying to troll? Do you think the city has never changed to meet the demands of its residents? I would imagine if a significant number of people are finding it hard to cross the road, it would be worth examining the possibility of a flyover, underpass (although it's too late for that now) or traffic lights.

Thankyou, yes all posibities are more than 10 minutes walk,
there are not schools in Ashtown but there are bus stops to city.
The question here is that as the city grows things have to improve
for pedestrians, disabled, cyclist and also traffic of course.
In a new development you can never expect to see everything completed
expecially
at the times we are living now that there is shortage of money.
A decent location is this development as for a non driver is quite close
to town and of course it has good transport facilities bus and train, I have many reasons
now to think that it is a good place to live that I am not going to discuss
now
because that will open other debates.Only I want to address what I think
is missing to improve which I think it is feasible somehow and will save a life or two or at least relieve some stress in the mornings.

Jip

uma10 wrote: »

there are not schools in Ashtown but there are bus stops to city.

As there is, and a better served one too, at the pedestrian crossing. Why would you want to walk further to get a less regular bus ?

uma10

Because the development is very big and for many the pedestrian cross is more than 10 minutes walk hanving to cross the roundabout, you see in the map probably that is close but you have to see inside there are many buildings at the end. I would have to walk less for a less regular bus 37.

vandermeyde

the flyover at Phoenix park rail station provides safe pedestrian access to both the bus and the train.

I don't consider 10/15 minutes walk to be excessive for access to relatively frequent and reliable transport.

If you do head down Ashtown way there are pedestrian lights to cross the castleknock road off the Ashtown roundabout and there are pedestrian lights at Kempton to cross the Navan Road (which are adjacent to the bus stop).

I'm not sure what the issue is to be honest.

Pineapple stu

markpb wrote: »

Are you trying to troll? Do you think the city has never changed to meet the demands of its residents? I would imagine if a significant number of people are finding it hard to cross the road, it would be worth examining the possibility of a flyover, underpass (although it's too late for that now) or traffic lights.

Troll? no. Just pointing out like others what is already in place.
By your post i gather that you dont know the area in question.

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

Thankyou, yes all posibities are more than 10 minutes walk,
there are not schools in Ashtown but there are bus stops to city.
The question here is that as the city grows things have to improve
for pedestrians, disabled, cyclist and also traffic of course.
In a new development you can never expect to see everything completed
expecially
at the times we are living now that there is shortage of money.
A decent location is this development as for a non driver is quite close
to town and of course it has good transport facilities bus and train, I have many reasons
now to think that it is a good place to live that I am not going to discuss
now
because that will open other debates.Only I want to address what I think
is missing to improve which I think it is feasible somehow and will save a life or two or at least relieve some stress in the mornings.

Only the lazy people run across a busy duel carrigeway and putting their own lives in danger when there is already a safe means of crossing that road and its not a 10 minute walk in either direction .

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

Because the development is very big and for many the pedestrian cross is more than 10 minutes walk hanving to cross the roundabout, you see in the map probably that is close but you have to see inside there are many buildings at the end. I would have to walk less for a less regular bus 37.

I would love to get a bus stop outside my house as well but im prepared to walk to the nearest one. Seriously, didnt you check all this out before moving in?

ViDuchie

I dont live here but stay there probably twice a week,

The path that runs from the entrance towards Ashtown roundabout is not a path. It's 100% cycle lane, unless you are less than 0.1M wide there is a tiny gap beside the wall on the right which should accommodate you, watch out for the lampost!!

Just bad bad planning here. I had a cyclist roar at me one day for being on the cycle lane, I was already close to the wall and it's impossible not to be in the cycle lane. You could have driven a bus down beside me. Other option is to dice with running across the N3 and hop the barrier.

For such a major development simple things were missed here.

Jip

The cycle lane has been there long before the apartments, when in fact there was no need for a footpath unless it was for the hardy few that would walk the length of the N3. It was just never amended to include a footpath once the apartments were built.

ViDuchie

Jip wrote: »

It was just never amended to include a footpath once the apartments were built.

Well it really should have been. Just because it previously existed as something else doesn't mean it shouldn't be amended to suit the changes in the area.

Anyway no big deal for me. Of course I go anyway. I think it was one over the top biker looking for something to shout at.

uma10

To the bridge is like 17 minutes, people who drive do not know what it is to walk there and to the next traffic lights and bus stop is 11 minutes or so to be precise. There is a bus stop just in front of the development and people need to go to the two more stops down to be able to cross so naturally people are crossing the dangerous carridge it is not a question of chosing where to live because there could be other circumstances as well why to live there it is a question of improving where you live if there is an option. Everybody should try to improve their neighbourhoods as there is always something to improve this is supposed to be a developed country and planning should be for helping people out in all possible ways, and citizens rich/poor/disabled...living anywhere should have right to have decent public services. Expecially if public services benefit all, polute less, decrease traffic...etc. Then how many places in Dublin should be abandoned? You might not need public transport today but tomorrow you might have children who until they can drive they need to go to College, go out with friends etc...Otherwise the Council if it is not willing to help pedestrians and city life in an area it should not grant building permission at all. Dublin is beautiful and has a lot of landscape but it is also a growing city, there have always been changes in cities to acomodate people and if a bridge is too ugly then they should put other remedies.

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

To the bridge is like 17 minutes, people who drive do not know what it is to walk there and to the next traffic lights and bus stop is 11 minutes or so to be precise. There is a bus stop just in front of the development and people need to go to the two more stops down to be able to cross so naturally people are crossing the dangerous carridge it is not a question of chosing where to live because there could be other circumstances as well why to live there it is a question of improving where you live if there is an option. Everybody should try to improve their neighbourhoods as there is always something to improve this is supposed to be a developed country and planning should be for helping people out in all possible ways, and citizens rich/poor/disabled...living anywhere should have right to have decent public services. Expecially if public services benefit all, polute less, decrease traffic...etc. Then how many places in Dublin should be abandoned? You might not need public transport today but tomorrow you might have children who until they can drive they need to go to College, go out with friends etc...Otherwise the Council if it is not willing to help pedestrians and city life in an area it should not grant building permission at all. Dublin is beautiful and has a lot of landscape but it is also a growing city, there have always been changes in cities to acomodate people and if a bridge is too ugly then they should put other remedies.

17 minutes? Is the wind against you? people dont have to walk 2 stops down as the one by the halfway house is the next stop and is the safest one to use.
You are going on as if there was little or no public transport available to you or that you didnt get what you was promised.
When that development is finshed then the bridge as it is now will be roughly in the middle of the whole development.
Do you want dublin bus to pick you up at your front door? Most of the Dublin public have to walk various distances to their closest bus stop and we would have nothing but footbridges all over dublin if we went with your idea.
Its a simple,either walk to the bridge which was built for that development and get the bus or train there or walk a short distance to the one by the halfway house which allows you to use crossings to cross the road safely or just be lazy and risk you lives crossing a busy duel carriageway just so you can save a few minutes. Its not the fault of dublin bus or the local authority that you live at the back of the development .

daymobrew

ViDuchie wrote: »

The path that runs from the entrance towards Ashtown roundabout is not a path. It's 100% cycle lane, unless you are less than 0.1M wide there is a tiny gap beside the wall on the right which should accommodate you, watch out for the lampost!!

Just bad bad planning here. I had a cyclist roar at me one day for being on the cycle lane, I was already close to the wall and it's impossible not to be in the cycle lane. You could have driven a bus down beside me. Other option is to dice with running across the N3 and hop the barrier.

The cyclist is wrong. Between Ashtown roundabout and the ramp to the new bridge it is a shared use ped/cycle path. Check the sign at Ashtown roundabout end.
When I used to cycle that route (did it for 5 years until last October) and you would often encounter pedestrians taking up the entire width (it only takes 2 to make it difficult to pass safely). The cyclist may have been in a bad move from such an encounter moments before passing you - but s/he was still wrong.

On the bridge ramps the ped and cycle parts are separate (white line between them).

daymobrew

uma10 wrote: »

To the bridge is like 17 minutes, people who drive do not know what it is to walk there and to the next traffic lights and bus stop is 11 minutes or so to be precise.

In your original post you said it is 15 mins to the bus stop

I think we need to clarify the exact locations of the places being discussed, otherwise we each might incorrectly assume a certain location and go in circles discussing the issues. Here is a satellite image of the area.

uma10 wrote: »

There is a bus stop just in front of the development and people need to go to the two more stops down to be able to cross so naturally people are crossing the dangerous carridge

We know that there are 3 bus stops to go to the city centre - at Phoenix Park train station, directly opposite the Racecourse development (i.e. outside the small business park) and at entrance to Kempton development.

The train station and Kempton bus stops are easy to get to with pedestrian lights to assist crossing the road. I think uma10's major concern is that the temptation of the nearest bus stop is too much for some people and they are putting themselves at risk.
1) these people are making a choice to cross the road. They are not being forced to do so.
2) I fully understand why they are going to the nearest bus stop - walking is a very slow mode of transport and people naturally want to get to their destination as quick as possible.
3) During peak traffic, the N3 is not particularly difficult to cross. You have excellent views of traffic; the roundabout breaks up outbound (west bound) traffic to allow crossing that side and vehicles are slowing on the approach to the roundabout which should make the inbound side relatively easy. Both crossings just need patience - IMO impatience is what makes the crossing seem dangerous and what might eventually lead to an accident.

All that said, what can be done?
1) If the nearest bus stop was removed it would inconvenience those in the industrial park but it would force racecourse residents to go to one of the other two stops.
Aside: I wonder how bus users in the industrial park cross the N3? Is there a path from train station stop to the industrial park? (I don't think there is).
2) Build a pedestrian bridge - Fingal County Council have consistently refused to build one for people to cross the N3 near Auburn Avenue (for the stop near the Esso garage). Given that track record I highly doubt they'll build one for the racecourse.
3) Install traffic lights - the developers originally wanted to make the N3 entrance to the racecourse a T junction with traffic lights, to allow residents turn right (towards town) but this was rejected by FCC.

To be honest, I cannot think of a solution. The safest solution is to use the other two bus stops.

uma10

HI,

15 minutes to the safe bridge and the Phoenix park Station at least. You really know what I am talking about depens where you live inside the development. The bus stops would be closer crossing through the roundabout, anyway there is a stop behind the development without having to go to Navan Road, only 37 stops there but I suppose it is not too bad it is all there the station of Ashtown, the bus stop with all the busses all the 37s, 39s, 70s, 38s you would get one bus every minute if you dont mind walking 7 minutes and one stop behind near the phoenix park entrance in Castlenock road if you dont want to cross any roads. 37 is every 10 minutes in the mornings it is not too bad at all. It is only very very tempting for many people to cross directly Navan road the carridgeway as you see everthing in your nose but you cannot reach there unless you walk up or down and that is a safety issue but I suppose the option is there, its our choice.

Jip

Surely if the stop at Kempton is so far away from you, the bus stop right outside the development on the actual Phoenix Park side, on the Castleknock Road, is closer tor you ? It's not exactly a massive development.

edit: Just spotted Uma mentioned that bus stop above.

Victor

Guys, knock off the barracking. Fair enough having a robust conversation amongst the regulars, but don't take it out on the newcomers.

---

My brother was run over by a Landrover recently and is in a wheelchair. If he lived in the Racecourse development, surely he should be entitled to use the closest possible? Fingal and the developer made bad decisions, the effects of which may not have been readily visible to ordinary purchasers. If nothing else, the Ordnance Survey show the bridge and station in the wrong place.

The correct solution would have been a bridge at either end of the devleopment.

uma10

I always pass by the road near the Radisson Hotel I think in Dublin 4 and I see a bridge every 200 meters or so at least the distances look quite reasonable to me, if you go to the main racecourse door in Navan Road, the one that is opened, stop there, look to your left and tell me if you see that the bridge is close enough, then look to your right you cannot ever see the traffic lights you need to cross the roundabout first and crossing the roundabout is not easy either pleny merciless cars sometimes going in all directions and why should they be mercy?? the one comitting the crime is the pedestrian for crossing in the wrong place. The roundabout is not a place to cross. The traffic lights are after the roundabout.

Pineapple stu

If you have a bridge at either end then you will have someone complaining that they are to far for them as they are in the middle and want a bridge built for them.
Thats a busy dual carriage way there and there isnt much room to build a footbridge to a bus stop which serves the factories and where the one at the halfway house is only around 2/300 meters from the entrence of the development which can be get to safely.
If a bridge was built then you would have those at the front of the development complaining that its an eyesore.
If there was a bus stop in the fast lane of a motorway, would people still use it just because its the closest or use a safer on a couple of hundred meters away?
Everyone seems to want everything on their doorstep these days.

Pineapple stu

uma10 wrote: »

I always pass by the road near the Radisson Hotel I think in Dublin 4 and I see a bridge every 200 meters or so at least the distances look quite reasonable to me, if you go to the main racecourse door in Navan Road, the one that is opened, stop there, look to your left and tell me if you see that the bridge is close enough, then look to your right you cannot ever see the traffic lights you need to cross the roundabout first and crossing the roundabout is not easy either pleny merciless cars sometimes going in all directions and why should they be mercy?? the one comitting the crime is the pedestrian for crossing in the wrong place. The roundabout is not a place to cross. The traffic lights are after the roundabout.

You have 2 traffic lights, one at the right turn for the park and the other at the bus stop you have no need to cross at the roundabout

Godge

Eh, 15 minutes to the bridge/train station is a problem????

I have always lived at least that far from a train station and walked to it.

You have to walk further to a train because it is high capacity public transport. The stations at Phoenix Park and Ashtown are very close together by Dublin standards. Sydney Parade/Sandymount/Lansdowne Road would be the only similar ones I can think of.

Walk.

BostonB

uma10 wrote: »

To the bridge is like 17 minutes, people who drive do not know what it is to walk there and to the next traffic lights and bus stop is 11 minutes or so to be precise.....

If you cycled you be in town in 30 mins at worst.

Get fold up Bike and Cycle to the train 5 mins.