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amendments to lisbon treaty.

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2

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    #32
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    The treaty is the same. There have been no amendments to it. The text is the same.

    We have got gurantees which are not in the text of the treaty and in the opinion of the referendum comission these are legally binding.


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    #33
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    are you aware that a yes vote cannot be repealled? your points on divorce and abortion are irrelevant. pointless in fact.

    (a) Of course it can. By referendum. I don't know where you got that from.

    (b) If we vote yes and the EU moves in a way we don't like, the Lisbon Treaty actually provides the 'escape route' to leave the Union should we wish. As it is, any attempt to withdraw from the EU would be a nightmarish mess.


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    #34
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Really-Stressed wrote: »
    The treaty is the same. There have been no amendments to it. The text is the same.

    We have got gurantees which are not in the text of the treaty and in the opinion of the referendum comission these are legally binding.

    In the opinion of the referendum commission? Firstly do you not think that they might have looked it up first?

    Now, they're also binding in the opinion of the European Council, the European Commission, the European Parliament, all 27 member state parliaments and the UN. But I'm sure Sinn Fein are right :rolleyes:


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    #35
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    In the opinion of the referendum commission? Firstly do you not think that they might have looked it up first?

    Now, they're also binding in the opinion of the European Council, the European Commission, the European Parliament, all 27 member state parliaments and the UN. But I'm sure Sinn Fein are right :rolleyes:

    That is their legal opinion?

    The thing includes judges and such. I have full confidence in them. No need to make an argument for arguments sake due to how i structured a sentence.


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    #36
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    prinz wrote: »
    (a) Of course it can. By referendum. I don't know where you got that from.

    (b) If we vote yes and the EU moves in a way we don't like, the Lisbon Treaty actually provides the 'escape route' to leave the Union should we wish. As it is, any attempt to withdraw from the EU would be a nightmarish mess.

    ok...so we've all voted yes...and now we dont like the way things have worked out..so we have a referendum to revoke the treaty...everybody is in agreement, lets annull the treaty...so the people speak. voting to revoke the treaty..but hang on the government say...no..believing its not in the interest of the country...so they force us to have another referendum..and then we have another referendum..until they get the answer they want...does this sound farmiliar to anyone?


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    #37
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    ok...so we've all voted yes...and now we dont like the way things have worked out..so we have a referendum to revoke the treaty...everybody is in agreement, lets annull the treaty...so the people speak. voting to revoke the treaty..but hang on the government say...no..believing its not in the interest of the country...so they force us to have another referendum..and then we have another referendum..until they get the answer they want...does this sound farmiliar to anyone?

    So a government, who don't want to revoke the treaty, repeatedly call a referendum on whether to revoke the treaty or not?


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    #38
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    marco_polo wrote: »
    So a government, who don't want to revoke the treaty, repeatedly call a referendum on whether to revoke the treaty or not?

    yes until they get the answer they want. ignoring the wishes of the people. just like lisbon 1.


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    #39
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    marco_polo wrote: »
    So a government, who don't want to revoke the treaty, repeatedly call a referendum on whether to revoke the treaty or not?

    Apparently.

    I've asked this question before, and never received an answer:

    Would we have even gotten the first referendum on Lisbon if we had elected a government who were against it, or would they have simply rejected it on our behalf at the negotiation table?


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    #40
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Really-Stressed wrote: »
    That is their legal opinion?

    The thing includes judges and such. I have full confidence in them. No need to make an argument for arguments sake due to how i structured a sentence.

    Maybe this guy might know.
    'No' claims have no basis in law

    Monday September 28 2009

    THROUGHOUT the referendum campaign certain groups advocating a 'No' vote have been making statements regarding the Lisbon Treaty that have no basis in law or in fact.

    Certain 'No' groups claim that the guarantees secured by the Government in June are worthless. This is wrong.

    The outcome of the deliberations in June could not be any clearer regarding the guarantees on taxation, abortion and neutrality. These decisions give legal guarantees to the Irish people, are fully compatible with the Treaty of Lisbon and are legally binding.

    To suggest otherwise is to mislead the Irish people.

    ...

    Declan J Walsh
    Lecturer in Eu Law
    University College Cork

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/no-claims-have-no-basis-in-law-1898157.html


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    #41
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    yes until they get the answer they want. ignoring the wishes of the people. just like lisbon 1.


    Sorry was the Lisbon Treaty ratified against our will after the first vote when I wasn't looking or something?


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    #42
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    meglome wrote: »
    Maybe this guy might know.



    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/no-claims-have-no-basis-in-law-1898157.html

    Im an independent irish citizen.

    There are lies on both sides.


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    #43
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    yes until they get the answer they want. ignoring the wishes of the people. just like lisbon 1.

    You said:
    ok...so we've all voted yes...and now we dont like the way things have worked out..so we have a referendum to revoke the treaty...everybody is in agreement, lets annull the treaty...so the people speak. voting to revoke the treaty..but hang on the government say...no..believing its not in the interest of the country...so they force us to have another referendum..and then we have another referendum..until they get the answer they want...does this sound farmiliar to anyone?

    If the government did not want to revoke the treaty resulting from this hypothetical yes, then why would they call this referendum in the first place?


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    #44
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    marco_polo wrote: »
    You said:



    If the government did not want to revoke the treaty resulting from this hypothetical yes, then why would they call this referendum in the first place?

    i dont know...public outcry?


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    #45
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Really-Stressed wrote: »
    Im an independent irish citizen.

    There are lies on both sides.

    Ok how about this guy

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0918/1224254794759.html

    Or this guy

    http://www.statewatch.org/news/2009/jun/lisbon-ireland.pdf

    Or this guy:

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0617/eulisbon.html


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    #46
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    Nozebleed wrote: »
    i dont know...public outcry?

    I think it would work better if you had described the following scenario:

    We elect a government (say Sinn Féin) that are opposed to the Lisbon changes. They hold a referendum to reverse them, but the people vote 'No'. They then try to persuade the people to vote 'Yes' and ask them again a year and a half later.

    That's more or less analogous with the current situation.


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    #47
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Really-Stressed wrote: »
    That is their legal opinion?

    The thing includes judges and such. I have full confidence in them. No need to make an argument for arguments sake due to how i structured a sentence.

    Fair enough. As long as there is no doubt that they're binding


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    #48
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Fair enough. As long as there is no doubt that they're binding

    None, i have no legal experience so i base it on the commissions view.


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    #49
    moogester
    Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭moogester


    The government failed in the overwhelming majority of the amendments it tried to make to the original text during negotiations in Brussels in 2002 to 2004.

    Dick Roche, the Irish government’s representative to the European Convention, made 149 proposed amendments to the text, of which only 36 resulted in changes to the Treaty.
    113 were unsuccessful, giving a success rate of only 24%.

    I found a list of the proposed amendments here.

    http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/irishamendments.pdf


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    #50
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    moogester wrote: »
    The government failed in the overwhelming majority of the amendments it tried to make to the original text during negotiations in Brussels in 2002 to 2004.

    Dick Roche, the Irish government’s representative to the European Convention, made 149 proposed amendments to the text, of which only 36 resulted in changes to the Treaty.
    113 were unsuccessful, giving a success rate of only 24%.

    I found a list of the proposed amendments here.

    http://www.openeurope.org.uk/research/irishamendments.pdf

    Pretty meaningless unless the percentages of other delegates to compare against. I don't expect the euroskeptics at openeurope got around to doing any more delegates though?

    An success rate of 24% for a country with 0.9% of the population of the EU doesn't look too bad at all. What was it 107 delegates present or something like that?


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    #51
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Neither will the treaty

    FFS!

    Another hundred times?

    You are voting on the same treaty.

    These guarantees are not in the treaty.

    These guarantees are not a condition of your vote.

    End of.


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    #52
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ah yes Open Europe that bastion of neutrality when it comes to all things EU. A Eurosceptic think tank tries to paint Lisbon in a bad light :eek:

    http://www.openeurope.org.uk/

    Note what pops up front page :eek: Shock horror, alternative investors and hedge fund managers against the proposed new Directive..... i.e. people like Crispin Odey and we know who he's been backing lately ;)
    The best way forward for the EU is an urgent programme of radical change driven by a consensus between member states. In pursuit of this consensus, Open Europe will seek to involve like-minded individuals, political parties and organisations across Europe in our thinking and activities, and disseminate our ideas widely across the EU and the rest of the world.

    http://www.openeurope.org.uk/about-us/

    which sounds remarkably like
    These failing structures are the embodiment of “old Europe.” Like the creaking analog telephone systems of earlier decades, Europe’s system of nationally structured political parties has become a legacy system. You can tweak and push the system harder, you can add new parts, but what lies underneath can no longer deliver the performance required of it. The old “analog system” must be discarded: European politics needs to go digital....It is time for the creation of new, truly pan-European political organizations..Such a political party— I will for the sake of discussion call it “Libertas”—will need to challenge the engrained composition of the convention in local and regional elections, as well as running candidates at member-state and EU levels. The old structures need shaking up.

    http://www.fpri.org/ww/0405.200312.ganley.euconstitution.html

    Although quite why an org.uk site leads with how the Irish government failed in the Lisbon negotiations and has nothing about how the UK government fared..hmm.


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    #53
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    squod wrote: »
    FFS!

    Another hundred times?

    You are voting on the same treaty.

    These guarantees are not in the treaty.

    These guarantees are not a condition of your vote.

    End of.

    The guarantees are a condition of the treaty being ratified.
    The treaty being ratified is a condition of your vote.
    The guarantees are a condition of your vote.


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    #54
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »
    The guarantees are a condition of the treaty being ratified.
    The treaty being ratified is a condition of your vote.
    The guarantees are a condition of your vote.


    So your saying that if these conditions/guarantees are not kept forever or implemented immediately that the Lisbon treaty is voided for every member state?


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    #55
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    squod wrote: »
    So your saying that if these conditions/guarantees are not kept forever or implemented immediately that the Lisbon treaty is voided for every member state?

    That could be argued yes IMO.


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    #56
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    squod wrote: »
    So your saying that if these conditions/guarantees are not kept forever or implemented immediately that the Lisbon treaty is voided for every member state?

    You could further argue that whole EU project would be pretty well voided, as there would be 27 member states who would be hard pressed to ever trust any commitments given to them ever again.


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    #57
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    prinz wrote: »
    That could be argued yes IMO.


    If that were the case there'd be a post script at the back of the treaty.
    Guess what? There isn't.

    It's the same treaty.

    The guarantees don't appear on the ballot. They are not a condition of your vote.

    That's one hundred and two times.


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    #58
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    squod wrote: »
    ... The guarantees don't appear on the ballot...

    Neither does the treaty.


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    #59
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    squod wrote: »
    If that were the case there'd be a post script at the back of the treaty.
    Guess what? There isn't.

    It's the same treaty.

    The guarantees don't appear on the ballot. They are not a condition of your vote.

    That's one hundred and two times.

    Read the stickie on the front page and download them if you don't believe us.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #60
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Neither does the treaty.


    FFS.

    One hundred and three times.

    What you are going to vote on is the Lisbon treaty.

    The guarantees are not referenced to or listed on the balot paper.

    What is the problem here.

    Arguing for the sake of it?


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    #61
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    squod wrote: »
    ... What you are going to vote on is the Lisbon treaty...

    I'm going to vote on amendments to the Irish Constitution.


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