Lisbon II

jiggajt

I dont know if ye know but there was only 5 votes in it in the Kilkenny constituency last time round in favour of the treaty. Thought i'd start a poll to see if its gonna be as close this time? Im doing this to get a flavour of what the opinion is like locally.

fabbydabby

VERY unimpressed with the Fianna Fail campaign poster turnout. If the posters on the ring road were indicitave of peoples opinion of the treaty locally, then the No side would be kicking Yes's ass in the polls.

The only posters that are up around the town on the Yes side though, are the Fine Gael ones and some from independant groups. On the no side you have the usual Cóir rubbish: The strangely irrelevant 1916 revoloutionaries one (sitting round a table and signing a treaty did a whole lot more for our independance than laying siege to a post office and a cracker factory) and that complete garbage about the minimum wage being reduced to €1.84, an outlandish claim justified only by the question mark after it to 'stimulate debate' accoring to the spokesman of the Cóir movement Richard Greene. Well Richard, since you're at it, why not use this tactic for all your posters:

Yes to reducing the legal age of consent to 9?
No to Lisbon!

or

Zombie mutant vampires teaching your children maths?
VOTE NO!

The government have everything to lose. They píssed all over the chips with their campaign in the last referendum. Are they doing it again? Why no posters?

Was going to write to Mssrs McGuinness but I thought that I would just have a moan on here instead. Coz that's how I roll.

Captain Havoc

jiggajt

Lol on the posters jersey!

I have to say i dont trust either side and if it wasnt for independent research on my part i wouldnt be voting at all.

According to the campaigners you've got:

VOTE NO or Barosso will eat your unborn children!

or

VOTE YES or we'll all lose or jobs, be eating in soup kitchens next week while ireland floats off into the mid atlantic ridge and melts in the mantle!

ztoical

I'm voting yes cus I've actually gone and read the consolidated treaty and am happy with the changes Lisbon makes but I would also vote yes just to shove it in Coirs face. Felt bad arguing with them on saturday in town cus all the Kilkenny ones seemed to be little old ladies who were a little on the dim side....was much more fun yelling at the ones in Dublin just as dim but with a little more fight to them.

Captain Havoc

I'll be going yes because all the parties on the no side are communists. Eveyone on the yes side are center to right which is how I roll. I am glad to live in country where the people can make a shambles of it on their own initiative

Purry Cat

The sight of Gerry Adams, an elected representative of a foreign state, urging a No vote on TV today should surely be enough to drive most thinking people into the Yes camp.

jiggajt

TBH im going to vote No but for none of the reasons the lame weirdos on the No side are trying to convince me to.

We're a long way from the Euopean coal and steel community now but perhaps we have come too far. I whole heartedly agree with free trade boarders between nations, free movement of its citizens and even a centralized banking system. Lord knows, we've done well out of this system so far.

In my opinion the latest treaty represents a large leap towards a federal european state with the majority of the control in the hands of Germany, France and the UK. I really like the EU in its current form but im not willing to give up the influence we have in europe. Despite being a small country we have given more to the EU than all the new accesion states (fisheries, immigration etc.) and i feel if there is to be a new order in europe created by this treaty that we should get as much infuence as we can now.

I know what your thinking though, "but if we vote no we will be cast out to the cold edges of the union and lose even more influence." Well to be honest if the europe that we live in is willing to marginalize one of its members based on a democratic decision than i dont want to be apart of it and i am even more angry with our government for holding that threat over our heads.

I dont think this treaty has anything to do with our economy, jobs, our position in europe or the survival of this government, its WAY more imortant than that. Its about the kind of Europe you want to live in in 20-30-40 years time and the consitution under which that union will be governed and the lisbon treaty is by no means a fair enough or simple enough vision of what i want MY european union to be like.

ztoical

jiggajt wrote: »

I dont think this treaty has anything to do with our economy, jobs, our position in europe or the survival of this government, its WAY more imortant than that. Its about the kind of Europe you want to live in in 20-30-40 years time and the consitution under which that union will be governed and the lisbon treaty is by no means a fair enough or simple enough vision of what i want MY european union to be like.

I think there in lays the problem with Lisbon - people feel they are not voting on Libson but rather on the EU as a whole and I don't think that's a good enough reason to vote no. lisbon in a nutshell is lots of little updates and changes to treaties already in place.

One of my reasons for voting is the small change it makes to the status of the self employed in europe which I fall under.

article 48 TFEU (just search *self* in lisbonexposed.org and its the second one) Its not a big improvement, but you are recognised for the first time by EU law as a migrant worker even if you are self employed and are subject to all the same rights and benefits as other migrant workers.

It's not a major change but that's all Lisbon is lots of small changes.

jiggajt

ztoical wrote: »

I think there in lays the problem with Lisbon - people feel they are not voting on Libson but rather on the EU as a whole and I don't think that's a good enough reason to vote no.

But on the other hand those that would have us vote yes are making us feel we are doing so in order to save the irish economy and jobs.

We are voting on the lisbon treaty which is the new contitution for the EU and as such in my opinion we are voting on the EU as a whole.

Captain Havoc

jiggajt wrote: »

But on the other hand those that would have us vote yes are making us feel we are doing so in order to save the irish economy and jobs.

We are voting on the lisbon treaty which is the new contitution for the EU and as such in my opinion we are voting on the EU as a whole.

TBH both sides are sprouting crap, that's why in Charlie McCreevy style, I haven't read it and I'm judging it by which parties are going for or against it. I reckon I'd be all year reading it and you couldn't believe the muck they're throwing around like €1.84 an hour minimum wage or voting yes will bring us out of the recession etc.........

ergonomics

I'm going to vote yes this time. Last time I halfheartedly tried to read the treaty and couldn't understand it so, wearing my best conspiracy theory hat, I decided they weret trying to sneak something in past me.

This time I've spent a long time reading the Treaty and having any questions I had answered and am much more informed.

ztoical

jiggajt wrote: »

But on the other hand those that would have us vote yes are making us feel we are doing so in order to save the irish economy and jobs.

We are voting on the lisbon treaty which is the new contitution for the EU and as such in my opinion we are voting on the EU as a whole.

The lisbon treaty is not a constitution. Both the yes and no sides have done a piss poor job of explaining it and both have resorted to stupid scare tactics. People should just read the consolidated treaty online which marks out how lisbon effects treaties that are already in place and what exactly is new. Look at it from their own current position and vote accordingly.

Stephen

Sadly I won't get to vote this time around because I'm out of the country for a few months

Sliderman

After the NICE TREATY was put through and the lies we were told it has to be a definate NO ................we cant trust this Government it's not doing the job properly.......Cowen is doing a great job for Europe but a terrible job for us......we joined the ECC in 1973 for economics purposes I DONT THINK WE JOINED FOR POLICITAL REASONS.......NO TO A SUPER POWER STATE CALLED EUROPE.

PADDY POWER DONT OFTEN GET IT WRONG THOUGH SO HELLO SUPER EUROPE AND BYE BYE IRELAND:mad:

ztoical

Sliderman wrote: »

After the NICE TREATY was put through and the lies we were told it has to be a definate NO ................we cant trust this Government it's not doing the job properly.......Cowen is doing a great job for Europe but a terrible job for us......we joined the ECC in 1973 for economics purposes I DONT THINK WE JOINED FOR POLICITAL REASONS.......NO TO A SUPER POWER STATE CALLED EUROPE.

PADDY POWER DONT OFTEN GET IT WRONG THOUGH SO HELLO SUPER EUROPE AND BYE BYE IRELAND:mad:

Go read the treaty and actually learn about what your bitching about before you start using BIG BOY TYPING. Come back when you've something intelligent and constructive to add. I've no issue with people voting no as long as they vote no based on the facts and not cus they read something somewhere about something that sounded bad.

ergonomics

A lot of people have said to me that they plan to vote no because they don't want to be part of a 'super state' or 'super Europe' because this super state would end up joining up with America to create a super evil state.

Two words: United Nations.

I'm not saying the UN is a super state or evil, but nearly every soverign state in the World is a member of the UN so the UN is much closer to creating a super state than Europe is.

ztoical

ergonomics wrote: »

A lot of people have said to me that they plan to vote no because they don't want to be part of a 'super state' or 'super Europe' because this super state would end up joining up with America to create a super evil state.

Two words: United Nations.

I'm not saying the UN is a super state or evil, but nearly every soverign state in the World is a member of the UN so the UN is much closer to creating a super state than Europe is.

My fav is the people freaking about the "EU super army" and how it will destroy our neutrality [O won't someone think of the children!!] only thing is we aren't a neutral country, the current policy is the tripple lock - Government - Dáil Éireann - UN Security Council - so we'll allow the UN to send us to war but freak out when lied to about an EU army cus we're a "neutral country and they died in 1916 something something insert random images found easter raising wikipedia page"

The UN is far more evil and full of red tape crap and bullsh!t and corruption then the EU could ever hope to be. Lisbon isn't "evil" it's just really really boring politics presented in a very dull way.


And anyone know who stuck up the crazy Kerry no Lisbon irishissues.com posters around town? those awful "Jesus pray for the Irish Voters so they can Vote No"....I didn't think anything could offend me more then the Coir abortion posters but yet again I proven wrong. There needs to be several options on the ballot friday:

1 Yes after reading Lisbon Treaty and making my own mind up
2 No after reading Lisbon Treaty and making my own mind up
3 Yes cus I'm an idoit and bought into the super neon glow in the dark yellow yes posters and the even cooler looking like a comic book balloon ones with out bothering to read the treaty
4 No cus I was too lazy to better inform myself and wasn't even going to vote but my mother got me out of bed and told me to go vote.
5 No cus I think Coir is right [anyone who ticks this will of course be shot once they've left the polling station]

Cus you know it's not just Yes and No...I'm voting Yes but man do I want the government to know it had zero to do with their stupid, piss poor and annoying campaign...if I write that on my ballot does that spoil my vote?

Raze_them_all

I'm voting no again. Even if I was considering yes the fact that the government didn't accept our democratic decision the first time round is making me say no again.

ergonomics

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I'm voting no again. Even if I was considering yes the fact that the government didn't accept our democratic decision the first time round is making me say no again.

To be honest I was like that for a long time and I can fully understand why you would feel that way.

If people want to vote no on principle I have no problem with it, but it's the people who voted no without reading the treaty the first time and are still voting no without reading the treaty that I think are out of line. How can you vote no to something if you haven't even considered what you're voting no to?

ztoical

Raze_them_all wrote: »

I'm voting no again. Even if I was considering yes the fact that the government didn't accept our democratic decision the first time round is making me say no again.

I really don't get that view point. We've had a couple of referendums on the abortion issue and I can see us having several more in my life time yet no seems to have an issue with us voting on that over and over and over..........

fabbydabby

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Even if I was considering yes the fact that the government didn't accept our democratic decision the first time round is making me say no again.

Double the votes = double the democracy, so let's not hear any of this "it's undemocratic" rubbish because you're still being given the option to say no again.

That is a *really* bad reason to vote no.

jiggajt

ztoical wrote: »

Cus you know it's not just Yes and No...I'm voting Yes but man do I want the government to know it had zero to do with their stupid, piss poor and annoying campaign...if I write that on my ballot does that spoil my vote?

Unfortunately yes it would spoil the vote but its not such a bad idea!

DerryRed

ztoical wrote: »

I really don't get that view point. We've had a couple of referendums on the abortion issue and I can see us having several more in my life time yet no seems to have an issue with us voting on that over and over and over..........

For me the big difference between the Lisbon referendums and the Abortion Referendums, was that there was approx 10 years between the Abortion Referendums, and we are being asked to vote on Lisbon again 16 months after saying No.

I originally voted Yes in the first Lisbon referendum, and while I have not yet decided on how I will vote again, I am leaning towards No at the moment, simply because we already said No.

fabbydabby

we are being asked to vote on Lisbon again 16 months after saying No.

Ostensibly a second referendum with new legal guarantees on subjects like neutrality, abortion, taxation, but in reality they are just hoping that the dolts who voted no to the treaty last time round simply because they couldn't be arsed attempting to understand it (as opposed to those who voted no because they understood and didnt agree with it) will be cajoled into voting yes this time.

I think that if only the well informed voted in the first referendum, the outcome would have been different. But idiots, hicks, ignorami and people who believe Sinn Féin also voted as well. And because they didn't 'get' it (for whatever reason), they just rejected it.

For this reason, and because of the altogether crap job the government and yes campaigners did last time, I do not recognise the last result as a valid one.

Why the hell are people so opposed to voting twice on something? I just don't get it. It's the most democratic thing in the world!

Johnnnybravo

A big NO here:)

Sully

A big YES from me anyway.

Only one more day I can put my vote again. Even if I was a No voter, and was a confirmed No again this time around, id have no issues telling FF/Europe that "I said No, and I meant No". But going by polls and speaking with no people - a lot are going to go with "Yes" this time.

ztoical

DerryRed wrote: »

we are being asked to vote on Lisbon again 16 months after saying No.

Had the first one been a massive land slide for the No camp with huge voter turn out I'd agree but it wasn't. Yes the Irish said No to Lisbon but a hell of alot of people went on record saying they voted no not because they disagreed with the treaty but because they were so confused by all the information and wouldn't vote on something they didn't understand so either voted no or didn't vote at all. This attitude that the government are holding this vote cus they didn't get the result they wanted last time is stupid, they f*cked up explaining the treaty [haven't done much better this round to be honest IMO] and many felt the last result wasn't an honest reflection of the opinion in this country so we're being asked again. I have doubts this time round it will be any better as people just can't separate the Lisbon treaty from NAMA, bank bail outs, Bord snip nua, general crap situation of the country at the moment and are voting on that rather then on the actual issue up for consideration.

I really don't get this whinge about having to vote on the issue again like fabby says it's the most democratic thing in the world.

jiggajt

ztoical wrote: »

Had the first one been a massive land slide for the No camp with huge voter turn out I'd agree but it wasn't.

Correct me if im wrong but was the turnout last time not in the mid 40% or something? Thats pretty good for a referendum. I can guarantee you the turnout will be less this time around!

Captain Havoc

D'oh, I forgot to vote and I can't get out of work. What time can you vote until?

jiggajt

jerseyeire wrote: »

D'oh, I forgot to vote and I can't get out of work. What time can you vote until?

You can vote until 10pm so you should be ok!

Sully

jiggajt wrote: »

Correct me if im wrong but was the turnout last time not in the mid 40% or something? Thats pretty good for a referendum. I can guarantee you the turnout will be less this time around!

Aye, higher then Nice anyway. Id imagine this time might be a little higher, as it was more high profile.

Plug

don't think i'll vote then I won't be blamed for fcukin the country up.

jiggajt

Aparently the turnout for Kilkenny city is one of the highest in the country so far. It currently stands at 20%. I wonder will it be as close in Kilkenny as last time?

ztoical

Sully wrote: »

Aye, higher then Nice anyway. Id imagine this time might be a little higher, as it was more high profile.

wouldn't take much to beat the first Nice referendum vote, that was an awful turn out, very low 30's but the second Nice referendum vote was fairly high almost 50%, not sure if we'll match that this time.

ztoical

Stand corrected on the turn out, looks like they got that evening rush that was expected and is looking like it's just over 50% turn out. Nice to hear as I had a bunch of friends who didn't bother voting and I thought it might be a low turn out.

jiggajt

Wow. Im genuinely shocked at the turnout. There's a lot more than 5 votes in it in carlow-kilkenny this time around! I think yes will probably be better for Ireland in the short term but the EU as a whole will suffer 20-40 years down the line but i probably wont be around then so....

ztoical

Very happy with result but have already written letter to send to various government types stressing I voted for the treaty and it's in no way an endorsement of them....I'm sure they'll ignore it but it'll help me feel a little better.