Tonight's Frontline show

population

Is anyone watching it???

Dear oh dear, I am not entirely unsympathetic to some aspects of the public sector complaints but sweet merciful the bunch of reps they have in tonight and the arguments they are making are just delusional.

DublinWriter

Just found it very weird seeing/hearing Stephen Kieron in the audience...he was the originator of Irelands first ever BBS.

rochie16

Incoherent ramblings

population

Crikey now Peter 'FAS' McLoone is on

Dannyboy83

The PS have completely trashed any arguments they had tonight.
I feel angry with them, because they've said nothing about the top paid people.
They're simply idiots fighting and panicing over the scraps at the end of the table when the upper management and Fianna Fail & Friends are savaging the feckin slice pan.

Anyway, I just wanted to make the point that Brian Cowen should be sitting very nervous in his seat if hes watching this show tonight.
People are genuinely enraged.

How are this government still going?
This is actually impressive to be honest, FF have managed to create a little mini-civil war, yet they are still there. Amazing.

Lastly, there was a point made that no cuts should come from the social welfare and it should all come from the PS payroll.
Not only is this totally unfair, its insanity.
In a private sector minimum wage job, you'll be making E320 per week
On social welfare you'll be making €205.
Once you factor in transport and feeding yourself, you're better off on the dole, lol!

population

Yup. There will be strikes a plenty. I can see a real winter of discontent

beanyb

It's Liveline and the Adrian Kennedy phone show on TV. The ravings of mad men (on both sides might I add).

anonymous_joe

God bless the public service. If you compare us to a country where my equivalent's paid 25% less than me, well, we just need this money.

jimmycrackcorm

population wrote: »

Yup. There will be strikes a plenty. I can see a real winter of discontent

Bring on the strikes - we'll save even more money.

garbanzo

There's no one better than the Irish to start in-fighting when the chips are down as opposed to getting stuck in to resolve the problem. What we learn from Irish history is that....we learn nothing from our history.

DublinWriter

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Bring on the strikes - we'll save even more money.

Yeah, like they'll forfeit the 11am scone break and the 3pm coffee break.

anonymous_joe

Do you think that if they do go on strike employment could be generated by employing people as strike breakers?

What utter madness is it that motivates someone to say that with an economy shrinking their wages should remain the same.

population

garbanzo wrote: »

There's no one better than the Irish to start in-fighting when the chips are down as opposed to getting stuck in to resolve the problem. What we learn from Irish history is that....we learn nothing from our history.

I think the whole worker v worker thing is a red herring though. There needs to be a dose of salts run through the Irish political and proffessional structure and like it or not that includes the public service

podge018

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Do you think that if they do go on strike employment could be generated by employing people as strike breakers?

What utter madness is it that motivates someone to say that with an economy shrinking their wages should remain the same.

Their wages have decreased.

population

podge018 wrote: »

Their wages have decreased.

Indeed they have but is it going to be enough? If the IMF come in then the wages would be savaged to a degree thought unthinkable previously.

If I was a public service rep leader I would be talking deal while there is still a chance of one. IMF come in and all bets are off

anonymous_joe

podge018 wrote: »

Their wages have decreased.

Aye, that's true, but not by as much as others.

podge018

the IMF wont decrease the vast majority of the public sectors wage by any more than the Govt might. The only people that should fear the IMF are the 50,000 (guesstimate) or so earning the big bucks.

Dannyboy83

population wrote: »

Indeed they have but is it going to be enough? If the IMF come in then the wages would be savaged to a degree thought unthinkable previously.

If I was a public service rep leader I would be talking deal while there is still a chance of one. IMF come in and all bets are off

Eddie Hobbs made the best point of the night at the end, even though you could barely hear it, he said:

"This living in denial by the Public Service & unions now, simply means they are going to get it in the neck in the short term future"

podge018

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Aye, that's true, but not by as much as others.

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

eoinbn

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

How are this government still going?
This is actually impressive to be honest, FF have managed to create a little mini-civil war, yet they are still there. Amazing.

They started the Irish civil war, lost it and ruled the country for most of the next 80 years!

The debate might of seemed pointless, but I think it's a pretty good indicator for the up and coming budget-i.e, cuts followed by strikes followed by bankrupcy.

PS: Anyone got the number of declan ganley's hedgefund friend? It's time to put some money on the future of the irish economy, or lack of it.

amacca

eoinbn wrote: »

The debate might of seemed pointless, but I think it's a pretty good indicator for the up and coming budget-i.e, cuts followed by strikes followed by bankrupcy.

Thats what I was thinking, I was also thinking how much I hate Eddie Hobbs, not so much what he says (although some of it is utter toss) just the way he says it.

And I like cork and cork people like.

Dannyboy83

podge018 wrote: »

the IMF wont decrease the vast majority of the public sectors wage by any more than the Govt might. The only people that should fear the IMF are the 50,000 (guesstimate) or so earning the big bucks.

I disagree, its supposed to be 10billion across 350,000 people for the PS wage bill?

I doubt 50,000 people are making 9 billion between them.

If there is a defecit of 50% of our GDP per annum (and growing), and 50% of that defecit is comprised of public sector wages, I imagine the cuts would be quite horrific.

The joke of the story is that, if it were Fine Gael or Labour in power right now, Fianna Fail would be crucifying them for not making the necessary cuts.
Thank Christ Bertie got it in 2007 - otherwise people might not have understood that this is all his and Fianna Fails fault.
The downside is that Fianna Fail are able to deflect some of the blame on the global economic crisis, but still, even the thickest of Fianna Fail voters must be asking himself why the recession is so insanely worse here than any other country.

Dannyboy83

eoinbn wrote: »

They started the Irish civil war, lost it and ruled the country for most of the next 80 years!

The debate might of seemed pointless, but I think it's a pretty good indicator for the up and coming budget-i.e, cuts followed by strikes followed by bankrupcy.

PS: Anyone got the number of declan ganley's hedgefund friend? It's time to put some money on the future of the irish economy, or lack of it.

I don't think it was a pointless debate, I think its very useful.
There hasn't been enough of it!

Until people get to see the outrage on their television screens, they are not going to change the way they vote.

Lets face it, how many people out of a population of 4.5 million are coming to visit politics forums?
Most of them are sitting at home watching the TV (because they can't afford to go for a pint anymore)

jank

podge018 wrote: »

the IMF wont decrease the vast majority of the public sectors wage by any more than the Govt might. The only people that should fear the IMF are the 50,000 (guesstimate) or so earning the big bucks.

I doubt they would only do that. The IMF would cut through the PS like a hot knife through butter. They have a record of doing that in other countries.

eoinbn

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't think it was a pointless debate, I think its very useful.
There hasn't been enough of it!

Until people get to see the outrage on their television screens, they are not going to change the way they vote.

Lets face it, how many people out of a population of 4.5 million are coming to visit politics forums?
Most of them are sitting at home watching the TV (because they can't afford to go for a pint anymore)

My point is that nobody at the debate had a change of mind, or does anyone on public forums, and I doubt many/any of the people watching learnt anything new. The public sector made some claims, the private sector made some claims- the truth was probably somewhere in the middle, it usually is.

Dannyboy83

eoinbn wrote: »

My point is that nobody at the debate had a change of mind, or does anyone on public forums, and I doubt many/any of the people watching learnt anything new. The public sector made some claims, the private sector made some claims- the truth was probably somewhere in the middle, it usually is.

Thats a fair comment, but I don't believe that the PS workers would ever publicly agree to accepting cuts anyway tho, its just not how its done.
Especially after the Bertie Era.

I guess if they didn't kick up a fuss about a 10% cut, the government might take 20%. Not getting my point across very well there but I'm sure you know what I mean anyway.

See Pat Kenny also got a nice dig in at the end with regard to not blowing the whistle on Molloy?
Nicely done imo:D

Daragh101

I think nurses, docs, gardi, and teachers deserve to earn what they do...
I think there should be a cap on pay!
senitors and some hse workers claiming benifits in kind is crazy! €60,00+ on top of saleries for handy work!

PeteHeat

The reality is nobody with a mortgage be they public or private sector can afford a pay cut.

I think the young Lady who had her home repossesed was not given enough consideration, two earners who could not afford to keep their home.

Think its bad now?

God help us when the German and French economies start to recover the Euro interest rate will be increased to keep the big economies in check the small counties will be ignored.

If the Dollar even hints at a recovery all E.U. member states except maybe GB will suffer the true price of oil.

FF Legacy = One year on and still no plan in place !

rowa

Hopefully the legacy of this madness is that fianna fail will be in the wilderness for the next decade and a half , if anyone thinks that they aren't to blame for the state of the economy they need to be certified !

The absolute waste and squandering of public money over the past two terms of this government is scandalous , 50 million for voting machines , o'donoghue taking 3 or 4 go's to own up to his spendthrift ways , the whole fas fiasco , it just seems to go on and on .

Have the irish no sense of outrage ? if it was like this in france , they'd be all hanging from lamp posts and the dail would be in flames . but wait and see there'll still be the diehards who'll get out and vote for these incompetents and corrupt idiots again .

ei.sdraob

Some show

i taught theres gonna be a fight

and then of course theres Pat Kenny and his "respectable" salary moderating them all

Amhran Nua

jank wrote: »

I doubt they would only do that. The IMF would cut through the PS like a hot knife through butter.

The IMF doesn't do anything, they just give recommendations to governments to sort their economies out. Once the governments execute these instructions, the IMF gives the green light to the markets to start lending to that government again. Well thats the theory anyway.

I think the big stumbling block here is the cost of living - if that were to go down it would hardly matter if public sector wages dropped, since there would be no follow on loss in spending power. While we may be in a deflationary environment, concentrating on certain key areas like staples and everyday expenditure (electricity and phones, fuel) could yield real results here, while not cutting off revenue.

Its also fairly important that even those who took out serious mortgages they probably shouldn't have be given every opportunity to repay their obligations, not so much out a sense of fairness but because they are the last real asset of the banks and hence protect the deposits, so that needs to be looked at as well.

dresden8

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The downside is that Fianna Fail are able to deflect some of the blame on the global economic crisis, but still, even the thickest of Fianna Fail voters must be asking himself why the recession is so insanely worse here than any other country.

I disagree.

FF is not a normal organisation, it is a cult. And like the Rev. Jones, it's taking everybody with them.

gurramok

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Its also fairly important that even those who took out serious mortgages they probably shouldn't have be given every opportunity to repay their obligations, not so much out a sense of fairness but because they are the last real asset of the banks and hence protect the deposits, so that needs to be looked at as well.

I found this from the debate on the public sector side that big mortgages were the real issue.
Ffs, no-one put a gun to their heads to take out a jumbo mortgage. Living beyond your means comes to mind.

Also, separating the audience into rival camps was creating tension, not the way to go about things, it ain't a gameshow!

ednwireland

first 4 months was on a 3 day week, then back up to 5 day, now a 10% pay cut (cos we have loads of work just not enough money coming in ) you should see how much tax the company doesnt have to pay by having a 10% pay cut.

actually got bored of PS workers whining on about pay cuts, switched off after 10 mins, the whole PS needs top down reform with massive pay cuts at the top trickling down to a few % at the bottom. and a restrucuture of management (most conpanies do this restructure every 5-7 years cos organisations always get top heavy with nanagement)

if it was started at the top i think that would be more acceptable but PS always cuts frontline spend cos its easier

optocynic

podge018 wrote: »

Their wages have decreased.

HOW?

It is a pension levy!!

That is the same as saying that if I begin to contribute to a pension scheme, it is a pay-cut!

Grow Up Public Sector... you are simply paying for some of your own pension now... like every other sap!

population

podge018 wrote: »

the IMF wont decrease the vast majority of the public sectors wage by any more than the Govt might. The only people that should fear the IMF are the 50,000 (guesstimate) or so earning the big bucks.

Have a look at Argentina et al. You have to view the IMF as a machine sent to do a job as quickly and effectively as possible so that markets will lend to a nation again without fears of debt defaults. Forensic analysis takes time especially when it comes down to the layers of nonsense contained within say the HSE. The quickest option is to just cut and fire across the board. This is what they will do.

population

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The IMF doesn't do anything, they just give recommendations to governments to sort their economies out. Once the governments execute these instructions, the IMF gives the green light to the markets to start lending to that government again.

There are recommendations and then there are RECOMMENDATIONS. Essentially they IMF tell the Govt "Look this is what is happening".

optocynic

population wrote: »

Have a look at Argentina et al. You have to view the IMF as a machine sent to do a job as quickly and effectively as possible so that markets will lend to a nation again without fears of debt defaults. Forensic analysis takes time especially when it comes down to the layers of nonsense contained within say the HSE. The quickest option is to just cut and fire across the board. This is what they will do.

I doubt it!.. For some reason, they are scared sh!tless of the Public Sector unions.

population

PeteHeat wrote: »

The reality is nobody with a mortgage be they public or private sector can afford a pay cut.

I think the young Lady who had her home repossesed was not given enough consideration, two earners who could not afford to keep their home.

One earner. Her husband was unemployed

population

optocynic wrote: »

I doubt it!.. For some reason, they are scared sh!tless of the Public Sector unions.

By 'they' I assume you mean the Govt. The decisions will essentially be taken out of the Govts hands. As I said earlier the IMF will say 'jump' and for fear of presiding over a failed state, the Govt have no option but to ask 'how high?'.

A 'yes' vote in Lisbon will provide a barrier to the IMF as Europe will keep funding us, but their patience will wear thin if we are seen to be just borrowing and doing nothing about it

Sin1981

hi,
good thread. Just wondering if someone might explain something to me....
What are the realistic chances of the IMF coming in??? Like, would this only happen if we end up like Iceland, which is not likely, so sf this IMF talk a bit ott and unrealistic?
btw, bring on the pay cuts. They're overpaid.

thanks.

optocynic

Sin1981 wrote: »

hi,
good thread. Just wondering if someone might explain something to me....
What are the realistic chances of the IMF coming in??? Like, would this only happen if we end up like Iceland, which is not likely, so sf this IMF talk a bit ott and unrealistic?
btw, bring on the pay cuts. They're overpaid.

thanks.

In some ways, the IMF talk may be OTT... or maybe just premature. However, since Ireland was recently viewed as a strategic market for business, with an educated and capable workforce.. the IMF may view us as being a higher priority than, say, Iceland.

But if the unions keep up their petulant, me-feiner crap and basic blackmail, no company will risk coming here in future. Why would they? An over-taxed and hence, under-motivated workforce, carrying an over-paid Public Sector with an unhealthy amount of malcontents holding the real workers to ransom.

jimmmy

The thing that struck me was the unbalance in the audience. All the public sector seemed hand-picked, whingy union militant types. Those from the private sector were afraid to say too much...eg the shopkeeper who admitted he needed public sector people to keep visiting his supervalue outlet. Fair play to Eddie Hobbs....despite harsh and repeated personal criticism he lay down the facts. eg a Guard would be paying 48% of his / her salary if he / she was to pay the full economic cost of his / her pension. ( guards can retire after 30 years ). And judges was about 85% - they can retire on full pension after 15 years.

Amhran Nua

optocynic wrote: »

I doubt it!.. For some reason, they are scared sh!tless of the Public Sector unions.

That would be because the public sector unions can and will shut down hospitals, schools and police forces in order to get their way. Thats the sick, the young and the vulnerable right there.

gurramok wrote: »

I found this from the debate on the public sector side that big mortgages were the real issue.

Its an issue for more than the workers, the banks need those payments to continue in order to stay solvent. Thus its in everyone's interests that they keep paying them. The question is of course, how many public sector workers have taken out mortgages, and of that number, how many have taken out mortgages such that a 20% (for example) reduction in pay would render them bankrupt on their PPR, not on some investment property, they can sell that and repay the shortfall themselves. Is it really as huge a number of people as all that? I find it hard to imagine, unless the public sector is wedged to the rafters with amateur property speculators.

As I wrote that last sentence, I got a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach for some reason.

kravmaga

podge018 wrote: »

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

Disagree with your point, all my friends who work in the private sector have had no choice to have a 10-13% wage reduction.

So in my opinion the public sector have no taken there fair share of the pain.

I agree with Eddie Hobbs that public sector workers are living in denial and wll get it in the neck in the short term

irish_bob

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Aye, that's true, but not by as much as others.

deflation has been greater than thier pay cuts so thier still winning

irish_bob

podge018 wrote: »

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

just keep believing that lie , like all the other union indoctrinated clones

irish_bob

Daragh101 wrote: »

I think nurses, docs, gardi, and teachers deserve to earn what they do...
I think there should be a cap on pay!
senitors and some hse workers claiming benifits in kind is crazy! €60,00+ on top of saleries for handy work!

thier can be no sacred cows and besides exempting certain areas from cuts would create real division , not like the phoney division which has been invented by the unions and which the ps workers parrot like clones , oh that and the fact that nurses , teachers and especially guards are over paid

irish_bob

gurramok wrote: »

I found this from the debate on the public sector side that big mortgages were the real issue.
Ffs, no-one put a gun to their heads to take out a jumbo mortgage. Living beyond your means comes to mind.

Also, separating the audience into rival camps was creating tension, not the way to go about things, it ain't a gameshow!

well considering how petulant , agressive and down right threatening the public sector side were , i think it was a good idea to keep them seperated , while numerically they were equally represented , the private sector did come across as quite meek , this was in sharp contrast to the glaring eyed ,rage filled , hysterical speakers on the other side

Many folks in the public sector are overpaid, not many in the private sector are overpaid currently. Public sector employees are going to get wage cuts, they can rant all they want about it, its going to happen. There will be f all support from the private sector if they then go on strike. The public sector folks have no realisation what it is like going into work wondering will you be getting your walking papers that same day. The public sector folks on the show last night came across as greedy, horrible individuals.

I also love the theory that they think all us public sector folks made fortunes during the celtic tiger. Also they seem to forget that they were constantly seeking wage increases over the boom, to keep in line with private sector folk. Now as private sector folk are faced with job insecurity, wage cuts and the dole the private sector folk feel that the pension levy is adequate contribution by them to.

They also love questioning why the private sector folk didn't go into the public sector, well why the feck did they not leave the public sector during the boom if things are so bad in there.

They really need to wake up.

Eddy Hobbs was spot on last night, and I am not a fan of the chap at all.

eoinbn

podge018 wrote: »

Everyone in the public service took a wage reduction. The majority in the private sector didn't.

It seems the unions think that everyone in the private sector works in an IBEC company. You can be pretty sure that close to 100% of the builders(the manual labour workers) have taken between a 40% and 100% paycut over the last 18 months- thats about 200k workers. That's just 1 sector. Most farmers have taken a 100% 'wage' cut in the last 12 months- it's a lose making game atm. Many retailors have been wiped out- you don't need to see stats for that, just walk into any town.

One final point. The unions will point out that some IBEC employees got pay rises- do you want an example of a IBEC employee that got a pay rise? The ESB workers!!! The very workers that the unions represent and threaten to strike over if they didn't receive their pay increase 6 months ago.