Out-Train a bad diet using just cardio? Of course you can!

--amadeus--

We get a lot of "I want to lose weight" threads in here and because the problem is a pretty generic one the answers we give tend to be the same. And over time it is inevitable that we slip into a kind of mantra. Answers are given because they are the answers that are always given.

And there are two "articles of faith" that pop up time and time again:

1 - You cannot out train a bad diet. If you want to lose weight you *must*, non optional, start by cleaning up your diet

2 - Lift weights because that will raise your resting metabolic rate. By inference weight lifting is better than cardio for weight loss.

Now I've never argued these as they are in themselves right. In particular Point 1 is blindingly and self evidently correct. Point 2 is right in and of itself but I personally don't think that alone makes it always the right answer but that's another discussion.

The thing is that they are such touchstones in here that to argue against them you'd need something pretty strong.

I do a bit of running but if I'm not actively training for a race the amount of training I do drops and I start to add weight. I'm by no means overweight - at the peak I was a little over 11 stone and stand just shy of 6 feet in my socks. But I was gaining weight, and I would guess I was gaining fat at the rate of 0.5 - 1 lb per week.

And teh reason was simple. Crap diet. I don't each much in teh way of sweet stuff and I am a veggie but beyond that my diet is woeful. A typical day:

Brekkie - mug of black coffee, 3 sugars
Break - coffee & sugar, maybe a couple of bags of crisps
Lunch - big bag of crisps, choc bar or packet of noodles & bag of crisps. Always a coffee with those 3 sugars
Afternoon - coffee and sometimes a nibble
Main meal - HUGE plate of food. Often refined carbs - white rice, pasta. Lots of spuds. Some veg but lots of chick peas, lentils, Quorn.
Evening nibble - crisps. Sometimes some oranges

(I like crisps)

I eat big portions of food when I have a proper meal. Double chips if I go to a chipper (that's two bags of chips in one bag) for example. I regularly get asked am I eating or climbing my dinner.

I did not change *anything* about my diet. But in the 13 weeks or so since I last weighed myself and yesterday I have lost 5.1 kilos, that ~11.25lbs.

And (apart from occasional bodyweight stuff like pushups in X training) I haven't done any weight lifting.

What I did do is run. I have averaged 40 - 50 miles per week for the last 13 - 14 weeks and teh weight has droped.

People are going to say "but running 45 miles per week is a stupidly high amount of time to spend training". Well it's not really - I average around 5 hours per week running. Thats the same as 1 hour every work day evening in the gym, which isn't unusual for a lot of people on here. The difference being that when I do an hours running I am working for teh full hour, not sitting in the steam room or ogling teh women's advanced yoga class .

So what am I trying to say?

- That the most effective exercise for weight loss isn't lifting weights. Nor is it cardio. It is whatever you enjoy and will stick to.
- That the occasional treat or snack won't kill you as long as you are consistent with your training
- That you can lose weight with just diet or just exercise. But that the best way to lose weight is to do both
- That just because we have always said something doesn't mean it right!

kevpants

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

Let's not go ruining the circulation of countless fitness publications by talking sense here.

Amadeus I find it extremely irresponsible of you to go ruining everyones sense of smug self satisfaction at laughing at people who go for walks to lose weight, just because you feel the need to talk sense.

I don't think you really get what fitness is do you?

What good is a world of people with svelte physiques, healthy hearts and active lifestyles if we have to lose out on what really matters? A whole industry of manufacturing inflatable fitness bouncy thingies could be wiped out. How are the droves of spandex clad "authors" of fitness literature going to keep themselves in €20 a tub hair product if this keeps up? What's the future for them huh?! Tesco own brand mouse!?

I don't think so.

Hanley

Pfft... out training a bad diet is easy. I've been doing it for years.

Want a REAL challenge?? Out train a bad lifestyle; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62286128&postcount=1810

It's funny how I was only talking about it yesterday too!!

BossArky

--amadeus-- wrote: »

And there are two "articles of faith" that pop up time and time again:

1 - You cannot out train a bad diet. If you want to lose weight you *must*, non optional, start by cleaning up your diet

2 - Lift weights because that will raise your resting metabolic rate. By inference weight lifting is better than cardio for weight loss.

Weights help people to look better. Running helps people to look like Sonia O'Sullivan. That being said, there is a golden medium.

Changing your diet is a long term choice for the best. Sticking with a dodgy diet is fine when you are engaged in a nice calorie burning weights/cardio routine, but what happens when you are too sick/old to follow this? --> You get fat and out of shape.

This is why people are generally advised to clean up their diet and train with weights.

sfag

Interesting enought post.

I've seen it stated here that exercise is not a licence to eat crap.
However for atheletes it is as many, if not the majority, of olympicans eat burgers, chips and pizzas.

One of my brothers has just come back from a two yr round the world trip. he's trained for kick boxing in Thainland, various forms of martial arts in Australia and boxing in America.
I asked him is he told to eat certain stuff during his times these at training camps and the answer was no. Eat what you like he said.

The one thing he constantly did was train and sleep. Morning and evening every day.
Have to say he doesent look any fatter and still enjoys his pies.

mdc5065

Hanley wrote: »

Pfft... out training a bad diet is easy. I've been doing it for years.

Want a REAL challenge?? Out train a bad lifestyle; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62286128&postcount=1810

It's funny how I was only talking about it yesterday too!!

... hung-over / tipsy jumping jack to mountain climber are the most efficient cardio I've ever done.

--amadeus--

BossArky wrote: »

Weights help people to look better. Running helps people to look like Sonia O'Sullivan. That being said, there is a golden medium.

Changing your diet is a long term choice for the best. Sticking with a dodgy diet is fine when you are engaged in a nice calorie burning weights/cardio routine, but what happens when you are too sick/old to follow this? --> You get fat and out of shape.

This is why people are generally advised to clean up their diet and train with weights.

Runners can look good! Link (should be SFW but linked just in case)

In fairness though that's a pretty sweeping statement. "Look good" is hugely subjective and while pretty much everyone likes toned not everyone is into muscle (or the super skinny runner look either for that matter). But not every runner looks like Sonia - she was a multiple World champion training as a pro 7 days a week and covering in excess of 100 miles per week at her peak. An equivalent in weightlifting would be a top international body builder and how many people genuinely want to look like that?

I stand by what I said - there is no absolute right or wrong exercise for weight loss. The "right" excercise is whatever you can do and will do at an appropriate intensity 3 - 5 days per week. This could be weightlifting. It could be running. It might also be football, swimming, rowing, cycling, etc. Better to do the "wrong" activity often than the "right" activity never. And lots (and lots) of people do not like either lifting weights or the whole gym thing so giving a blanket "lift weights" instruction may be counter productive.

You are bang on with the lifestyle choices thing though. If you don't change your diet and you do stop exercising then of course you gain weight. But I've seen marathon runners in thier 70s so I don't need to worry just yet!

cmyk

--amadeus-- wrote: »

So what am I trying to say?

- That the most effective exercise for weight loss isn't lifting weights. Nor is it cardio. It is whatever you enjoy and will stick to.
- That the occasional treat or snack won't kill you as long as you are consistent with your training
- That you can lose weight with just diet or just exercise. But that the best way to lose weight is to do both
- That just because we have always said something doesn't mean it right!

I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to say to be honest? I think it's basically that you can in fact out train a bad diet?

Running 40-50miles per week is not in the same league as the average poster here that comes on looking for advice or indeed others that do 'outtrain' their diets, nor is it something they would be willing to do in order to achieve that in my mind? But maybe I'm missing the point?

Yes those two points do seem to be mantra's here but for good reason I'd imagine. Some people who post here have no idea about decent diet or in fact decent exercise due to misleading marketing of foods and products. (I include myself in that to up to a few years ago) The advice given therefore is a general guideline to a healthier lifestyle.

BossArky

I agree with you on most of what you are saying & I'm not looking to get into an argument about cardio vs.weights. I couldn't careless how someone stays fit and healthy as long as they "just do it".

But... you are asking why people recommend weights and dietary clean up on here and the answers is because we aim to cater for what most people want:

- looking good (weights and some cardio, etc)
- long term lifestyle changes (diet awareness, etc)

Khannie

I have to say I'm not a big fan of all the "omg quick to the weights cave batman!" type posts. I have to lose weight regularly (for competition) and I have found the easiest way to do that is to bump my calorie expenditure while keeping calorie intake roughly the same. For me, bumping calorie expenditure comes with a cost: It affects recovery time. In my experience (important 3 words there) the easiest way to ditch weight while maintaining strength and anaerobic fitness has been to cover more distance. I generally do that by cycling or running or walking.

Now the caveat is that I'm training close to the level of overtraining and that's why I choose cardio (it has a reduced recovery time for the same calorie burn v's weights or HIIT). Still though, like amadeus, I think the best exercise for weight loss is whatever the hell you enjoy, because you're a million times more likely to keep doing it.

cmyk

But is it healthy to run 40-50miles per week while living off a diet of coke, sugar, chips and crisps? Weight is not the only indicator of health?

--amadeus--

cmyk wrote: »

But is it healthy to run 40-50miles per week while living off a diet of coke, sugar, chips and crisps? Weight is not the only indicator of health?

Well I've been to the Drs once in 10 years and my race performances have been improving so I'm not unhealthy.

I think Khannie & BA have summed it up. Extremities aren't good; find a form of exercise that suits and clean up your diet (without living like a monk). Doing that you are making teh lifestyle changes that will have teh best chance of sticking.

But that's simple, common sense and un-sexy advice. Telling someone that they have to eliminate alcohol completely, never eat another chocolate or must do an exercise they hate might look good on here but it won't work in the real world because it isn't sustainable. And fitness or weight loss isn't always a one size fits all. There are common principles to adopt (safe calorie deficits, cleaned up diet, more excercise) but the specifics will vary from person to person.

TommyKnocker

Hi All

Again I find this post interesting However I wish everybody would get over their hang up with the number shown on the scales. This is almost as useless IMHO as the BMI figure. I think it is way too general. I am not expert, just an ordinary joe, mid 40's trying to keep fit and healthy.

Take the OP's first post, where he lost 11.25lbs over the last 13 weeks eating what I think most would agree is a pretty crap diet, while upping his running mileage.

Now if the 11.25lbs weight loss is comprised of
7lb body fat
3lb water weight
1.25lb of lean mass

Then that is a great result.

However if the weight loss is comprised of
7lb muscle
3lb water weight
1.25lb of body fat

Then the result is not so great.

It is quite possible to be a "skinny" fat person, where by the amount of body fat you are carrying would be considered unhealthy, even though your weight would be considered within the normal range for you sex/height.

So in my humble opinion, you should pay less attention to the number of the scales at any given time and more attention to your body composition figures for general health. Of course folks who are losing weight for certain competitions (i.e. MMA, Boxing, Weight Lifting etc) are totally different.

Just my 2c worth.


Best Regards,

M

corkcomp

Khannie wrote: »

I have to say I'm not a big fan of all the "omg quick to the weights cave batman!" type posts. I have to lose weight regularly (for competition) and I have found the easiest way to do that is to bump my calorie expenditure while keeping calorie intake roughly the same. For me, bumping calorie expenditure comes with a cost: It affects recovery time. In my experience (important 3 words there) the easiest way to ditch weight while maintaining strength and anaerobic fitness has been to cover more distance. I generally do that by cycling or running or walking.

Now the caveat is that I'm training close to the level of overtraining and that's why I choose cardio (it has a reduced recovery time for the same calorie burn v's weights or HIIT). Still though, like amadeus, I think the best exercise for weight loss is whatever the hell you enjoy, because you're a million times more likely to keep doing it.

I guess if you are trying to make a specific weight (as oposed to body fat etc) then cardio and calories are going to make more difference, IMO .. anybody who lifts heavy weights often is going to pack on at least a little muscle ... weights are great but a couple of full body workouts, or even one every week is all the average punter needs, where as cardio can be done every day (doesnt have to be obviously)

cmyk

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Well I've been to the Drs once in 10 years and my race performances have been improving so I'm not unhealthy.

I think Khannie & BA have summed it up. Extremities aren't good; find a form of exercise that suits and clean up your diet (without living like a monk). Doing that you are making teh lifestyle changes that will have teh best chance of sticking.

But that's simple, common sense and un-sexy advice. Telling someone that they have to eliminate alcohol completely, never eat another chocolate or must do an exercise they hate might look good on here but it won't work in the real world because it isn't sustainable. And fitness or weight loss isn't always a one size fits all. There are common principles to adopt (safe calorie deficits, cleaned up diet, more excercise) but the specifics will vary from person to person.

Agree with that, do you mind me asking what age you are though? I'd imagine you are probably the exception to the rule, and may be the type of thing that will catch up with you in time. I know for a fact if I was to eat the same diet as you I wouldn't be able to run 1 mile let alone 50.

Most of the advice I've seen here advocates exactly what you're saying, diet clean up and exercise though, haven't seen too many that say never eat treats?

Transform

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Runners can look good! Link (should be SFW but linked just in case)

In fairness though that's a pretty sweeping statement. "Look good" is hugely subjective and while pretty much everyone likes toned not everyone is into muscle (or the super skinny runner look either for that matter). But not every runner looks like Sonia - she was a multiple World champion training as a pro 7 days a week and covering in excess of 100 miles per week at her peak. An equivalent in weightlifting would be a top international body builder and how many people genuinely want to look like that?

I stand by what I said - there is no absolute right or wrong exercise for weight loss. The "right" excercise is whatever you can do and will do at an appropriate intensity 3 - 5 days per week. This could be weightlifting. It could be running. It might also be football, swimming, rowing, cycling, etc. Better to do the "wrong" activity often than the "right" activity never. And lots (and lots) of people do not like either lifting weights or the whole gym thing so giving a blanket "lift weights" instruction may be counter productive.

You are bang on with the lifestyle choices thing though. If you don't change your diet and you do stop exercising then of course you gain weight. But I've seen marathon runners in thier 70s so I don't need to worry just yet!

a few thoughts

1. The pic you put up is a runner who clearly does weights as part of her program

2. No offence but i will watch the dublin marathon again this year from the top of fosters avenue and will again scream my lungs out in support. However, out of the say 15,000 runners that will pass i will see very very few that i personally would look at and say 'wow he/she is in great shape - not too skinny, good muscle tone and looks like they could bang out a few chins and press ups'.

3. Plain old weight loss and actually getting into impressive shape are not the same thing. I would like one Trevor C to pipe up here if he would please....or anyone who dropped the fat and said ok now its time to get this body looking super

4. If i let my clients do what ever they wanted i would get no results with them - 'ahhh D i do not like step ups, inverted rows, wall balls, push ups etc can i just do biceps curls and triceps kickbacks and some leg raises instead. Now i know you mean do what you like but most people just go for walks/run/swim/salsa classes/curves then look at the celeb magazines and say "well he/she has some secrets that i just do not know about yet, maybe its Acai berries that i am missing" - no dip sh1t its cutting back the carbs, hitting the weights and some cardio you need!!

Finally remember most people who actually want to either simply drop the fat and get back into slimmer shape or those who say they want to look amazing are JUST ASKING they really do not want to know as when they are told they pull out the excuse list and keep searching forums and the internet for the 'new secrets to flat stomach' pages.

justsomebloke

ok I have always advocated that a what ever you like to do, do it approach to exercise as it is what will keep you active longer and thus chances are that you will see better results.

That said most people you post on here looking for advise want to look good naked and the most effective way of doing that is by diet and weights. For the most part health takes a back seat as for most aesthetics rule and added to that people still have the misconception that skinnier must mean they are healthier.

Just remember although they freak most people out, the athlete most posters here looking to lose weight have most in common with are Body builders as most want to lose the fat and get "toned"

--amadeus--

Good reply Transformer. I hate doing line by line stuff but anyway...

1. She is Allyson Felix and as a sprinter she would do weights. TBF though I was being a bit tounge in cheek and defending the inner sex god / goddess in all of us runners!

2. I know what you mean because the last time I was watching "The Worlds Strongest Man" on TV I couldn't help thinking how badly they would struggle on a marathon course. I mean not one did I look at and think - "wow, good physique, nice tone, bet they'd be good for 5 or 6 miles at lactate threashold"...

A more serious answer is that it's horses for courses. Last time I was in a gym was a few months ago when I was away with work. I saw a lot of "beautiful people" faffing about on machines but only a couple who seemed to be putting any real effort in. A better set of teh "skinny fat" you probably couldn't hope to find and I wouldn't have considered any of them to be "fit" in any meaningfull sense of teh word no matter how many hours a week they spent in the gym.

And that links into your point 3. Yep, if your goal is to "look good naked" then weights will tone your body. No argument. But that seems to me to be stage two. Stage one is shifting teh weight in the first place. And thats where doing an excercise you enjoy comes in.

On point 4... On one level I hate running. Deeply and with a passion. When it's piddling rain and the wind is howling on a cold November evening and I have to go out for a 3 hour run then the whole idea of doing an excercise you love is a crock. But I do it because it's the "least worst" option for me. No excercise is fun all teh time but for rank newbies it should be as little "not fun" as possible. There are people out there who just want to do a couple of little finger twitches a week and look like an athlete. There are people who only want magic pills or potions. But there are also people who genuinely want answers and I suppose all I am saying is that we shouldn't assume anything. Read something on a forum often enough and it becomes truth even if it's not.

d'Oracle

--amadeus-- wrote: »

1. She is Allyson Felix and as a sprinter she would do weights. TBF though I was being a bit tounge in cheek and defending the inner sex god / goddess in all of us runners!

She actually prefers the weight room to the track.....
http://magazine.stack.com/TheIssue/Article/4346/Allyson_Felixs_Workout_Plan_for_Track.aspx

--amadeus--

d'Oracle wrote: »

She actually prefers the weight room to the track.....
http://magazine.stack.com/TheIssue/Article/4346/Allyson_Felixs_Workout_Plan_for_Track.aspx

Pfffft. Why would I let facts get in the way of a good argument!

brianthebard

Nice post amadeus but you didn't exactly 'outtrain' a bad diet, you have a pretty bad diet (by your own admission) that works fine because of the amount of training you do. You stopped training for a while and gained weight-no surprise. You then added back the training and went back to your normal weight-again not really surprising. To really out train a bad diet would suggest that you put on added muscle mass or lost extra body fat and got to a better condition than before you gained weight, which doesn't appear to be the case from your post. I can't help feeling that this might be a little distracting to some people who come on here looking to lose weight but don't have the level of conditioning and years of training which you clearly have, then wonder why they can't eat terribly (ie the same as always) but can't train off the weight either.

Yeah I was thinking, as soon as I saw that picture of the female runner, I was like "She definitely lifts weights" - never seen a clearer cut example of someone who lifts weights in my life !

People who lift weights and do it properly (watch the carbs, eat healthy 90% of the time and exercise regularly) look hot (body wise), it's just the way it is.

Amadeus lost weight because he burns more calories than he consumes. Try get a beginner on his running regime and they will probably drop dead or get seriously injured.

--amadeus--

brianthebard wrote: »

Nice post amadeus but you didn't exactly 'outtrain' a bad diet, you have a pretty bad diet (by your own admission) that works fine because of the amount of training you do. You stopped training for a while and gained weight-no surprise. You then added back the training and went back to your normal weight-again not really surprising. To really out train a bad diet would suggest that you put on added muscle mass or lost extra body fat and got to a better condition than before you gained weight, which doesn't appear to be the case from your post. I can't help feeling that this might be a little distracting to some people who come on here looking to lose weight but don't have the level of conditioning and years of training which you clearly have, then wonder why they can't eat terribly (ie the same as always) but can't train off the weight either.

Actually I hadn't really thought how the post would appear to newbies. I did try to put caveats in there about how the right way to do things is exercise and diet but you are right it could be used as an excuse to not eat properly.

The real reason for the post was this story that I came across. Occasionally I think we're a bit like the monkeys, we repeat the same advice because that's the advice we have seen. The point of my post was more to rattle the cage a bit and get people to think about generic advice they are giving rather than just accept and repeat it.

Deleted User wrote: »

Amadeus lost weight because he burns more calories than he consumes.

^ That is weight loss and exercise in a nut shell. Do that and you won't go far wrong. And there are three ways of doing it. Maintain your calorie burn but cut intake (diet alone). Increase burn but maintain intake (what I did). Or the easiest and optimal way which is increase burn and decrease intake.

Roper

Firstly, I want to nail my flag firmly to the mast- EVERYTHING works. Cardio, walking, weights... everything. I'd also like to say that if I had posted this it probably would have been deleted

I've expanded on this before but what happens here is cyclical. Man A says "weights are best" Man B thinks Man A knows his stuff/is cool, Man B says "weights are best". He doesn't say it through experience or knowledge, he just says it because he heard it.

I know someone who lost a hell of a lot of weight and looks great and all she did was walk and take care of what she ate, that's all. I know lots of runners, lots, who are in really good shape and like their physique and get it only through running, I know lots of lifters in great nick too. I also know loads of guys who "lift weights" who are in dreadful shape, and indeed loads of people who do all of the above who are in dreadful shape.

Exercise regimes don't make people in good nick on their own. What makes a programme successful is:
1) Burning more energy than they eat.
2) ummm
3) that's it

After that, it's all physique goals. I out train a fun diet. I don't see it as a bad diet at all. I eat nice, tasty, healthy grub, and I supplement it with food I like such as biscuits and cake... and nachos. But I train 6 days a week sometimes twice per day. I'd sooner be the guy with 15% bodyfat who indulges his inner 11 year old. It makes me a happy Barry
That's really it

corkcomp

Roper wrote: »

Firstly, I want to nail my flag firmly to the mast- EVERYTHING works. Cardio, walking, weights... everything. I'd also like to say that if I had posted this it probably would have been deleted

I've expanded on this before but what happens here is cyclical. Man A says "weights are best" Man B thinks Man A knows his stuff/is cool, Man B says "weights are best". He doesn't say it through experience or knowledge, he just says it because he heard it.

I know someone who lost a hell of a lot of weight and looks great and all she did was walk and take care of what she ate, that's all. I know lots of runners, lots, who are in really good shape and like their physique and get it only through running, I know lots of lifters in great nick too. I also know loads of guys who "lift weights" who are in dreadful shape, and indeed loads of people who do all of the above who are in dreadful shape.

Exercise regimes don't make people in good nick on their own. What makes a programme successful is:
1) Burning more energy than they eat.
2) ummm
3) that's it

After that, it's all physique goals. I out train a fun diet. I don't see it as a bad diet at all. I eat nice, tasty, healthy grub, and I supplement it with food I like such as biscuits and cake... and nachos. But I train 6 days a week sometimes twice per day. I'd sooner be the guy with 15% bodyfat who indulges his inner 11 year old. It makes me a happy Barry
That's really it

IMO that post should be stickied! See, thats the major problem, a lot of people will say straight off - do weights - go low carb, no need for cardio + blah blah and its not because they have any experience of it, they are just copying and pasting the same old stuff all of the time ... Ive lost count of the times Ive seen people being told to drop the carbs, even when they are clearly HARD GAINERS ... like roper mentioned, lots of people lose weight by walking alone, some lose it by weights alone .. bottom line, there are several ways to do it but a combination of reasonable diet, cardio and heavy weights will probably be the most efficient way of going about it ...

rubadub

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Occasionally I think we're a bit like the monkeys, we repeat the same advice because that's the advice we have seen. The point of my post was more to rattle the cage a bit and get people to think about generic advice they are giving rather than just accept and repeat it.

I think there might be a bias on advising weights, but can fully understand why. The problem is most of the "new monkeys" coming into the cage have a fixed idea, they want to lose weight and think running/cardio is the best/only way to do this, I certainly had that mindset and my eyes were opened when I read about weight training and how much sense it made, and how much it suited me too.

A similar thing happens in the cycling forum, a newbie comes on looking to get "a cheap mountain bike for €200", and everybody tells them to get a secondhand hybrid or roadbike, it is something they might not have considered and they want them to at least think about it, and it probably does suit more people. A mountainbike suits me though, I want it to be harder to cycle to use more energy over a fixed distance. But I do appreciate the advice and can see what suits me, it is good to read the logic behind the advice -and most advising weights do give the reasoning, which many have never heard of.

So people are just informing them of stuff they might not realise, like the fact that they probably would be happy with just losing FAT, and not weight. And pointing out that weight training does in fact cause a lot of calories to be used by the body. I cycle to work and do not even count my cycling or walking in my logs, most people who know me presume my FAT loss is due to cycling, to begin with it was but resistance training is what finished it too, both keep it off. Most people look dumbfounded when I say I put most fat loss down to resistance training.

I have a poor enough diet, I also have large mates who ask how I lost fat, now I know one guy will always eat a lot, and will not dedicate a lot of time to training. I keep advising weights to him, I think 2x30min full body resistance workouts would give him better results than doing the same time & effort of 2x30mins of cardio per week. He is going to eat a calorie surplus regardless, it may as well go to some use.

Vegeta

OP you train 5 nights a week
Hanley, looks like you do 6-8 sessions a week
Barry, you train 6 days a week

Hmmmm I wonder why you guys can indulge and get away with it

beegirl

Great post I couldn't agree more, when I was training for a half-marathon I got away with MURDER in terms of diet - and for the person who said weight isn't the only indicator of health, my cholesterol actually went down from 9.2 to 6.3 too - with no medication and no attention to diet. It did make me think though, do I literally have to run myself into the ground just to control my weight/cholesterol? Yikes :eek:

Anyway, my current thinking on the whole diet/weights/cardio thing (borrowed from the BFFM book) is:

Any one of the three: Some results
Two out of three: Pretty good results
All three: SUPER-AWESOME RESULTS!!!

The Davestator

Anyway, my current thinking on the whole diet/weights/cardio thing (borrowed from the BFFM book) is:

Any one of the three: Some results
Two out of three: Pretty good results
All three: SUPER-AWESOME RESULTS!!![/QUOTE]

Great summary!

My 2 cents are - if you do pretty much any physical exercise for 5 hours per week you will get decent results. Whatever people enjoy, they will stick with.

Best thread in this forum in a good while in my opinion

Roper

Joe the Santa wrote: »

That said most people you post on here looking for advise want to look good naked and the most effective way of doing that is by diet and weights.

Based on what exactly? Weights are good, weights are great, but people get in great shape doing an awful lot of things.

Just remember although they freak most people out, the athlete most posters here looking to lose weight have most in common with are Body builders as most want to lose the fat and get "toned"

No, I don't think so. Right now I'm looking at threads with GAA players looking to get fitter, another about soccer fitness, and I would say that deadlift/squat form questions are just as common.

As far as I'm concerned, people can do what they want but there is a cyclical, almost cultish element to the advice given on this forum occasionally. Anyone giving advice contrary to certain business concerns is rounded on.

Transform

Roper wrote: »

Based on what exactly? Weights are good, weights are great, but people get in great shape doing an awful lot of things.

No, I don't think so. Right now I'm looking at threads with GAA players looking to get fitter, another about soccer fitness, and I would say that deadlift/squat form questions are just as common.

As far as I'm concerned, people can do what they want but there is a cyclical, almost cultish element to the advice given on this forum occasionally. Anyone giving advice contrary to certain business concerns is rounded on.

Barry i have no idea what you mean by certain business concerns?

A point to make -

- there is no use in discussing an athlete or a particular person and making comparisons. The best way is to take say 3 personal trainers

1. A bodybuilding focused trainer - someone who goes with 3-4 day splits and recommends little cardio and a bodybuilder diet

2. A pilates/yoga/power plate trainer - a softer approach some might say and more focused on 'core' control and kind of get your diet right but 'i am not getting into that too much' and little cardio

3. The middle of the road guy/girl - does regualar testing, uses full body programs that incorporate weights, pilates, yoga and cardio and takes a Zone type diet approach or a lower carb approach for the more overweight client

If you were to take 30 beginners and divide into the 3 groups i think that would give you a better anwser on which approach is best and which gives the quickest results. i know it would depend largely on clients application and dedication but hey thats the role of a coach/trainer to be able to keep a client on track regardless of the method.

Even the worst program/training done with super dedication will produce great results but maybe just maybe if you have been around long enough you might just find that there are faster and slower ways to get to your goal its up to you which path you take

Roper

Who is talking about trainers? Maybe it's where I live but I know next to no one who could afford a personal trainer, and maybe even fewer these days.

If you go to a trainer you're taking motivation out of the equation. People are more likely to respond well to something they have paid for. We were discussing everyone, not just the 10% who can afford a PT.

My point re: business concerns is that you are inextricably linked to your business, and as such any posts you make are not independent of that and lead into what you do for a living. You will always get motivated clients who pay to train with you. Your view is formed by your success with them. I'm trying to take a step back and see the bigger picture. I get great results too doing something different, but there's no point in me giving those results as they would be skewed by my proximity to those clients.

The big picture I see is how there are many ways to skin a cat, and for me the way that works best is the one you stick with for life.

So of the 100% of trainees I know (not any of the ones I train, I'll exclude them as those results would be skewed as I see them every day) I have seen results from aerobics, running, weight training, walking, just dieting and a few other things. Just because you see your clients doing well with your programme doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't getting results doing something else.

--amadeus--

Transform wrote: »

Even the worst program/training done with super dedication will produce great results but maybe just maybe if you have been around long enough you might just find that there are faster and slower ways to get to your goal its up to you which path you take

And maybe that is the real lesson from this thread. I have a woeful diet and Hanley has posted about his lifestyle but we've both made progress against our goals. But the amount of time we dedicate to our training wouldn't fit with a lot of people so to make up that shortfall other people would have to change thier diet or lifestyle.

In other words if you want to lose weight and continue to eat crap then experience from here suggests you need to be training 5 - 7 times per week with at least 5 hours at the right intensity. If you can't afford that time then clean up teh diet.

celestial

If the advice on here comes across as 'cyclical' or 'cultish' then it's for a good reason - the same handful of people reply to each 'I want to lose weight and tone up' thread that pops up on here! So the advice is bound to be heavily influenced by what has worked for them. That's the nature of things - you advise based on your own experience. Also - this is the fitness forum - not the cycling forum, the swimming forum or the rugby forum.

Neither is it the darts forum.

Point being, the advice given will mainly be from people who have got their results from just hitting the gym, cutting out junk food, going out running or whatever and maybe doing a bit of sport here and there. Plus - for people starting out it makes sense to just offer basic advice that they can make a start with - far easier to get a set of free weights, join a gym or go out running around the block than to think about joining a sports club, etc etc.

That said, it'd be nice to hear from other people once in a while - as pointed out before the ratio of page views vs responses in any given thread on here can be fairly weighted in favour of page views!

corkcomp

celestial wrote: »

If the advice on here comes across as 'cyclical' or 'cultish' then it's for a good reason - the same handful of people reply to each 'I want to lose weight and tone up' thread that pops up on here! So the advice is bound to be heavily influenced by what has worked for them. That's the nature of things - you advise based on your own experience. Also - this is the fitness forum - not the cycling forum, the swimming forum or the rugby forum.

Neither is it the darts forum.

Point being, the advice given will mainly be from people who have got their results from just hitting the gym, cutting out junk food, going out running or whatever and maybe doing a bit of sport here and there. Plus - for people starting out it makes sense to just offer basic advice that they can make a start with - far easier to get a set of free weights, join a gym or go out running around the block than to think about joining a sports club, etc etc.

That said, it'd be nice to hear from other people once in a while - as pointed out before the ratio of page views vs responses in any given thread on here can be fairly weighted in favour of page views!

thats all very well but unfortunately a lot of the responses come from people with a low post count and / or who have only joined boards.ie recently .. in fact i have seen posters replying to threads looking for advice when in fact they themselves were asking for the same advice a few days previously, my point being that a lot of people are posting advice they copied and pasted from the net or read somewhere else ... its great to hear advice from people when it has worked for them though

beegirl

corkcomp wrote: »

thats all very well but unfortunately a lot of the responses come from people with a low post count and / or who have only joined boards.ie recently

Just cos someone joined boards recently doesn't mean they're a complete beginner y'know! And there are other fitness forums on the interweb

corkcomp

beegirl wrote: »

Just cos someone joined boards recently doesn't mean they're a complete beginner y'know! And there are other fitness forums on the interweb

yep, quite true, and that can easily be judged by the quality of advice given

celestial

corkcomp wrote: »

thats all very well but unfortunately a lot of the responses come from people with a low post count and / or who have only joined boards.ie recently .. in fact i have seen posters replying to threads looking for advice when in fact they themselves were asking for the same advice a few days previously, my point being that a lot of people are posting advice they copied and pasted from the net or read somewhere else ... its great to hear advice from people when it has worked for them though

Mm yeah but with most of those people you can see that they've just copied and pasted from someone else or from the internet and their replies are maybe two sentences long.

When I say the same handful of people I'm thinking of you, Eileen G, ULStudent etc - people who generally give good and consistent advice.