Tilted off my roll again!!! FFS.

Headspace

AS the title says I done it again. I was playing a .50/1 plo session and lost 4 buy ins, stood up to make my dinner. Then I said I'd play another couple of hands (I often try to break even, this is bad) I was not really tilted at this stage. Anyhow things did not go my way and I moved up levels and lost the lot about 2K. I have done this umpteen times. I read hand well and have what I feel is a big edge in small stakes plo, but have made no money for two years. I get a few grand together then busto in one or two tilted sessions. In 2007 I turned $100 into 20k i four months in a challenge I set myself. I was playing sngs and mtts. This was my high point and I busted that acc Christmas 2007. Anyway can anyone HELP. I have put alot of work into poker and know I am good. Doyle Brunson once said disipline is the most important attribute a poker player can have and I dont have it. I know when I am on tilt but all I want to do is recoup my losses. A guy who knows much more about poker than I do told me that generally its the good players that tilt and its the ones that quit when they do that are the big winners. Any good stories of people over coming tilt problems and how the did it, or good suggestions, I dont want to quit yet. I am eager to move up levels maybe that is part of the problem.

CHD

You say when you concentrated and didn't tilt you ran your roll to 20K?

Why not cop onto youself and do things properly like you did then. Do not chase losses, do not ever move up levels to try ''make it back''. Only person who can really help you is yourself and until you learn to discipline yourself your going to be back in this position alot.

GL

Jesus Wept

Don't move up levels because you have lost 4 buyins.

Better advise may follow...

Tar.Aldarion

The-Rigger wrote: »

Better advise may follow...

Move up levels.

Jesus Wept

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Move up levels.

lol.
My first thought was that it was Marq posting.

RoadSweeper

You were playing 5/1 plo with 2k? Should it not be more?

Also, i lose 4 buyins at the start of most sessions. I tilt after 10. I would understand this if it was tilt worthy.

AdMMM

Sure 4 buyins is just about enough to build an image .

jbravado

On a semi serious note if you have done this a ton of times then theres not a lot you can do. Some people have whatever traits or characteristics needed to be normal and have the discipline needed to get teh win in pokes.
Others dont. Most dont.

Managing your money is as much part of the games as hand reading ability etc. Without this you are not "good" you are bad and figure to be a loser. I am sure there are some who overcome it infact there are a few on here that have managed to do so but for most people it just doesnt change.

The best practical advice I can give you is keep as much of your Br or money offline as possible. There may come a stage in your life where suddenly you can control the urge to tilt your head off and things like a healthy balanced lifestyle obv help but for almost all who have busted many a bankroll its never far from the door.
Good luck anyway.

Luckycharms_74

Headspace wrote: »

AS the title says I done it again. I was playing a .50/1 plo session and lost 4 buy ins, stood up to make my dinner. Then I said I'd play another couple of hands (I often try to break even, this is bad) I was not really tilted at this stage. Anyhow things did not go my way and I moved up levels and lost the lot about 2K. I have done this umpteen times. I read hand well and have what I feel is a big edge in small stakes plo, but have made no money for two years. I get a few grand together then busto in one or two tilted sessions. In 2007 I turned $100 into 20k i four months in a challenge I set myself. I was playing sngs and mtts. This was my high point and I busted that acc Christmas 2007. Anyway can anyone HELP. I have put alot of work into poker and know I am good. Doyle Brunson once said disipline is the most important attribute a poker player can have and I dont have it. I know when I am on tilt but all I want to do is recoup my losses. A guy who knows much more about poker than I do told me that generally its the good players that tilt and its the ones that quit when they do that are the big winners. Any good stories of people over coming tilt problems and how the did it, or good suggestions, I dont want to quit yet. I am eager to move up levels maybe that is part of the problem.

Hey Headspace

I highly recommend watching some Jared Tendler videos on Stox Poker, that should sort you out. You should look at the Tilt Control videos to start.

http://www.stoxpoker.com/viewvideos.php?langid=1&sortby=&author=16&&page=2

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

First off you should not be playing 50/1 plo with 2k you should have around 3.5k to 4k to be properly rolled given the nature of PLO variance. Easier said than done but when down a couple of buyins you should a) quit the session or b) move down levels if you are not happy with how you are playing/running. Moving up levels when your down a few buyins is a quick route to the poor house especially when in the back of your mind your chasing that bit more and putting yourself in more marginal situations to recoup earlier losses.

Bankrolll Mgt and Tilt Control FTW

El Stuntman

what's a roll?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

El Stuntman wrote: »

what's a roll?

Brekkie roll you should have at least 35-40 of them:p

jimbling

Tilt is a seriously difficult thing to deal with. I'd say if I counted up the money I have lost to the poker tilt it would be frightening. It's a very hard thing to learn to control and is one of the major difference between good players who are winners and good players who are break even or losers.
You could try reading zen and the art of poker. It's a good read, and it might hit the right spot. There's probably a ton of other decent reading material on the matter.
Currently I just step back, take about 10 deep breadths and sit back down. It helps after a very bad beat, but doesn't really help that kind of slow growing tilt that you dont even see happening until you find yourself shoving over a 4bet with Q9o :rolleyes:



But never ever ever move up levels to win back loses. It is seriously -EV. I have done it quite often and it has worked a few times. The other 50 or so it just increases your loses.

If you feel yourself tilting a good thing to do is move down levels. Go down to the micro micro stakes, 2c/4c or something and go bananas. Can be great fun and very therapeutic

I remember a time when I was running like god in general and playing high stakes poker, I used to move down to 1/2 and 2/4 for tilt... lol, I was in a dreamworld. I probably lost about 4/5k doing that :eek:

doke

You could do what I did: get married and have kids. With a family to support, there's a lot less freedom to tilt:)

More seriously, the most important thing when you are on tilt is to recognise immediately that you are on tilt and take whatever steps you can to stop it harming your game or your roll. Usually the best way is just to stop playing until you clear the head. I have a rule that I've followed since the start: as soon as I find myself typing something derogatory about someone in the chatbox, I know I'm on tilt and instead of clicking the Send button, I just log off. Similarly, when I was grinding superturbo headsup sit n gos which generally come down to flips so you can have very frustrating patches, I had a forced timeout rule if I lost three on the bounce. That generally wasn't enough to tilt me, but enough to start me on the road towards playing sub optimally. Ideally you want to take a break before your game deteriorates. In cash, I have a 3 buyin rule which I read somewhere once (maybe Jennifer Harman). Apart from it preventing you dropping more when on tilt, it also safeguards you against continuing in games where you believe you have an edge but your belief is a mistaken one.

There are other gimmicks and ploys that may be helpful. Mike Caro suggests "rooting for the other guy". Instead of going "no deuce, no deuce", be chanting for the suckout deuce. This is silly but so much so it seems to help. Forcing a smile can also help.

It's important to recognise how important luck and variance are in poker. I was once describing how a very good player tilts after a bad beat to another good player, who said "Does he not realise it's poker he's playing?" It's practically impossible to persuade a bad player to play a game of pure skill (where no luck is involved) against a good player for money. It's much easier to get them to play in a game like poker where short term luck/variance obscures the fact that they will lose money in the long run to the good players. Don't look at suckouts as something which deprive you of deserved profit: see them as the vital ingredient that makes profit possible in the first place.

jimbling

When you are getting beat after beat on the tables just look at it the opposite way.
Smile, and think..... Man, this is great, getting all these beats out of the way....... I'm going to be running like Usain Bolt after this.

Again....never ever move up levels to rescue losses. Put a post-it on your screen to constantly remind yourself.

El Stuntman

I'm glad I don't have one of these roll yokes, saves me the bother of tilting it off imo

aodea

A thing that works for me when tilting is step back and play something differnt to take your mind off it. lose four buy ins at 1-2 plo play a 20 dollar tourni or a qualifer for something. A differnt game can help you refocus as when you go on tilt you are not seeing things as clearly as you should, you think the world is against you and make silly calls, bluffs, donk bets etc etc.

You are not rolled for the level your playing and this is why you are so heavily affected by a four buy in downswing. This is not a very large downswing and should not result in you tilting off your entire account. I think you are aware of this. Moving up levels to chase losses is never a good idea.

other than that run better!:)

YULETIRED

Open all the windowns in your house and leave the lights on for 10 minutes, now imagine all those litlle flying creatures are the suckout merchants, then get a slipper or newspaper and go SWATTING. It's great for tilt control. It's important that if you are using this method that you don't go looking for bigger and better thrills. It can all end in tears with a dead cat on your hands and a weeping child and angry parent.

NOTE: Slippers do not kill cats easily, more effective are highheels or walking boots. It's important to be humane .

boba_fett3099

Best advice I can give is just to be way overrolled for whatever stakes your playing. Losing 4 buy-ins from a 60-80 buy-in roll wont affect you as much!

TripleAce

Read this: http://www.amazon.com/Poker-Mindset-Essential-Attitudes-Success/dp/0974150231

I used to have tilting problems, but this book fixed them for me....I can still have some downswing now, like I lost 1.5k last week, but never tilted for a minute and I never felt in bad mood either. Best investment you can make IMO.

miju

RoadSweeper wrote: »

You were playing 5/1 plo with 2k? Should it not be more?

about 2.5k should be enough of a roll to play .50 / 1 PLO no???

RoadSweeper

Ask the PLO heads, they would probably know better. I would want 3k to play 100 NLHE, and PLO is higher variance.

It depends alot on your need for the income and your edge too. But i assumed 20 buyins is a bit short for PLO.

max_power

I'd want about 40 or 50 buyins, but then again i'm not very good. Very easy to drop a lot of buyins.

Slash/ED

miju wrote: »

about 2.5k should be enough of a roll to play .50 / 1 PLO no???

I wouldn't play .50/1 holdem with 2.5k unlessI was taking a shot, so no, absolutely definitely not enough for Omaha. I'd guess at least 50 buy ins given the variance involved, minimum

Unless you don't really mind busting the roll and reloading and aren't relying on it as any kind of income at all, if it's a hobby and you can blow the money and not mind you can obviously limit the requirements.

In 2007 I turned $100 into 20k i four months in a challenge I set myself. I was playing sngs and mtts.

Stick to this then.
I'm quite like you as a player. I can grind out a decent bankroll, take it to the cash tables and be up a few hundred/thousand in a session and then lose it all the next day. Some people just don't have the right personality for cash imho and I'm one of them.

I mainly stick to live poker now and my game has improved so much. Being able to drop thousands of euros in a few mouse clicks is never a good idea. When it's cash in your hand you'll think twice, plus you get the entertainment factor of playing with real people so even if you don't win etc it's still better than going on the piss, blowing 200 quid and only having a dirty hangover to show for it

TommyGunne

I wouldn't play 100PLO without 40-50 bi as well.

I'm pretty bad for tilting, but not in the move up levels way. If I run bad for a while, I just end up playing pretty terrible. This just exacerbates downswings. The only problem is that I regularly lose 4-5 bi in a row, cos I just love shoving. These combined make me really swingy, and prone to tilt, so it is really something I have to work with as well.

The first thing is simply to never move up levels. The second that you do this your roll is as good as busto. If you do this, you are just throwing roll management out the window, and you will find it very hard getting back into the mindset of grinding your chosen level. I've always stopped myself from doing this by accepting that the second I do this, my ability to grind any game ever will be gone.

One thing that I found tough for a while as well was moving down levels. Its a very tough time, cos its always in the middle of a downswing, which is where you tilt. If you can accept moving down levels in a downswing, you are pretty much there as a non-tilter.

As I said, I don't tilt in the traditional sense, I just play a bit worse than I usually do. I don't do crazy ****, I just end up losing confidence and getting frustrated. If you miss all the small edges that you would normally take, the thin value, the thin folds, the thin bluffs. These are the things that give you edge, and these are the things that you miss when you lack confidence and are frustrated. Its so hard to get back into a positive mindset from a negative one, but you gotta do it.

The best way to get back in a positive mindset, is simply to avoid a negative one. Set yourself a strict stop-loss and you will never tilt. This is basically by far the best way to stop tilting, just avoid getting to the stage where you might find yourself tilting, and keep a positive mindset.

One thing that I always find helps is just going to 2NL or 4NL and shipping every hand until you crack a hand. Its so much fun, and you'll find yourself just laughing at the stuff that happens, win or lose. The downside is that I reckon I've done about 100 bi between 2NL and 4NL over the years, but I reckon its saved me more in terms of less tilt. Once you go to those levels when you tilt, you will find it very easy to quit as well, cos its very easy to see just how much you are tilting. Also, it can make you want to stop playing, as its so soul destroying.

As doke says, I always cheer for the other guy in a hand as well. It at least gives you some happiness when you get done! Its very easy to get into a benevolent mindset as well then.

Something I've always wanted to do is get a graph of a few of my downswings and put them on my wall. When you see the amount of money that you have lost through playing awful, its very easy to quit. I usually have my HEM graph focused on my last downswing as well, so I can easily just pop it up on screen.

Seriously though, it doesn't matter how good you are, if you tilt you are loser in the games.

Slash/ED

Yeah I tilt in pretty much the same way. Never like cold 5 betting 72o or stuff like that, but giving up alot of small edges without really realising due to confidence as much as anything I guess. I should start the 2nl open shoving thing.

mdwexford

I never understood the whole moving up levels when tilted thing or playing drunk, just something id never even consider doing under any circumstances.

My worst tilt habit is berating fish in chat when they dog me, ive cut it down a lot compared to how bad i used to be though.

pok3rplaya

Quitting is one of the most profitable moves I make on a regular basis. Sometimes I quit 4 times a day.

hotspur

I should have something set up by the end of the year that will be enormously helpful imo. I aim to offer a session(s) which should help eliminate tilt for all of us poker degenerates out there, and also help with other aspects of the mental game.

It will combine what I think is relevant from my background and studies in poker, psychology, psychoanalysis, addiction, gambling studies, counselling, hypnotherapy, NLP etc. It will have an important hypnotherapy component. It should be good...if it isn't I won't do it. But I think I understand some important aspects of the mental side of it very deeply, and I have a range of tools to help, so it's about time I helped I think.

Obviously all boardsies will be looked after at a hefty discount

pkr_ennis

nslattery1974 wrote: »

Hey Headspace

I highly recommend watching some Jared Tendler videos on Stox Poker, that should sort you out. You should look at the Tilt Control videos to start.

http://www.stoxpoker.com/viewvideos.php?langid=1&sortby=&author=16&&page=2

+1

Rynaldo

TommyGunne wrote: »

I wouldn't play 100PLO without 40-50 bi as well.

I'm pretty bad for tilting, but not in the move up levels way. If I run bad for a while, I just end up playing pretty terrible. This just exacerbates downswings. The only problem is that I regularly lose 4-5 bi in a row, cos I just love shoving. These combined make me really swingy, and prone to tilt, so it is really something I have to work with as well.

The first thing is simply to never move up levels. The second that you do this your roll is as good as busto. If you do this, you are just throwing roll management out the window, and you will find it very hard getting back into the mindset of grinding your chosen level. I've always stopped myself from doing this by accepting that the second I do this, my ability to grind any game ever will be gone.

One thing that I found tough for a while as well was moving down levels. Its a very tough time, cos its always in the middle of a downswing, which is where you tilt. If you can accept moving down levels in a downswing, you are pretty much there as a non-tilter.

As I said, I don't tilt in the traditional sense, I just play a bit worse than I usually do. I don't do crazy ****, I just end up losing confidence and getting frustrated. If you miss all the small edges that you would normally take, the thin value, the thin folds, the thin bluffs. These are the things that give you edge, and these are the things that you miss when you lack confidence and are frustrated. Its so hard to get back into a positive mindset from a negative one, but you gotta do it.

The best way to get back in a positive mindset, is simply to avoid a negative one. Set yourself a strict stop-loss and you will never tilt. This is basically by far the best way to stop tilting, just avoid getting to the stage where you might find yourself tilting, and keep a positive mindset.

One thing that I always find helps is just going to 2NL or 4NL and shipping every hand until you crack a hand. Its so much fun, and you'll find yourself just laughing at the stuff that happens, win or lose. The downside is that I reckon I've done about 100 bi between 2NL and 4NL over the years, but I reckon its saved me more in terms of less tilt. Once you go to those levels when you tilt, you will find it very easy to quit as well, cos its very easy to see just how much you are tilting. Also, it can make you want to stop playing, as its so soul destroying.

As doke says, I always cheer for the other guy in a hand as well. It at least gives you some happiness when you get done! Its very easy to get into a benevolent mindset as well then.

Something I've always wanted to do is get a graph of a few of my downswings and put them on my wall. When you see the amount of money that you have lost through playing awful, its very easy to quit. I usually have my HEM graph focused on my last downswing as well, so I can easily just pop it up on screen.

Seriously though, it doesn't matter how good you are, if you tilt you are loser in the games.

This .

opr

doke wrote: »

I have a rule that I've followed since the start: as soon as I find myself typing something derogatory about someone in the chatbox, I know I'm on tilt and instead of clicking the Send button, I just log off.

This is gold and if I had implemented this rule i would have saved myself a fortune.

I found the Tommy Angelo videos good.

http://www.deucescracked.com/coaches/Tommy-Angelo

One thing I have learned is that outside of poker life happiness has a huge amount to do with being able to control tilt.

Opr

phantom_lord

pok3rplaya wrote: »

Quitting is one of the most profitable moves I make on a regular basis. Sometimes I quit 4 times a day.

u should just not play at all imo

Moneymaker

doke and connor win the internet tbh. great advice.

i like the idea of open shoving at 2NL/4NL. sounds hilarious.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

mdwexford wrote: »

I never understood the whole moving up levels when tilted thing or playing drunk, just something id never even consider doing under any circumstances.

My worst tilt habit is berating fish in chat when they dog me, ive cut it down a lot compared to how bad i used to be though.

This was one of my problems so i just removed the chat box option on ipoker.

HibsAreIt

Atleast im not the only one who does this:p(usualy when had a few bevs)
Sit here for hours on end building my wee deposits into something decent and then one drunken night im usualy back to square one,usualy hittiiing these things called HU cash games of all things..all the regs prob have me on there buddy list just waiting for me to get abit excited:rolleyes:

zuutroy

I would post a helpful comment but

phantom_lord

that's some carpet! did u get it out of the merrion or something when it closed down?

latenia

Try playing a few $1/$2 turbo SNGs and open shoving every hand.

El Stuntman

Kynlee Delicious Transistor wrote: »

This was one of my problems so i just removed ipoker.

ahem

FYP

zuutroy

phantom_lord wrote: »

that's some carpet! did u get it out of the merrion or something when it closed down?

Hehe I think similar posts were made when I first posted that...Rented gaf so I tooks what I got.

Wombatman

opr wrote: »

One thing I have learned is that outside of poker life happiness has a huge amount to do with being able to control tilt.

Do you think we would be up half the night, alone, gambling with people we don't know, subjecting ourselves to the cruel mistress that is variance if we had any of that! Cop on to yourself buddy.

H8GHOTI

zuutroy wrote: »

Hehe I think similar posts were made when I first posted that...Rented gaf so I tooks what I got.

I remember someone posted about the poor dog too. Scared ****less, hiding under the chair, thinking he's next!

El Stuntman

in the interests of balance, all these 'how not to tilt' posts need to be balanced out by a 'how to tilt properly' post:

How to Tilt

Step 1: go to play ordinary donkament. Get knocked out in some statistically improbable manner. Mild stirrings of tilt.

Step 2: Go to leave casino. Stop by (cunningly positioned at door) roulette table. Throw price of tournie buy-in on black. It comes up red. Stirrings of tilt now becoming rumblings.

Step 3: Go to leave (again). Instead of turning left to go to your car, turn right in direction of ATM. Strange force commands you to withdraw several hundreds of Euro. Urge to gamboool becoming stronger.

Step 4: Return to casino and buy-in to cash game. Proceed to play like a donkey, eventually do the loot when your flopped trips are outflopped by trips with higher kicker.

Step 5: Rebuy. Do these loots even faster when you get AIPF with QQ vs AA. Fail to suck out. Leave cash table.

Step 6: On way out door, empty remaining contents of your pockets and place on Black. It comes up Red.

Step 7: Return home, driving very fast. Narrowly fail to kill staggering junkie outside Connolly Station. Consider homicidal impulse to pull U-turn and try again. Small inner voice counsels you otherwise.

Step 8: Arrive home. Pour large drink, refrain from including any mixer. Log on to online poker site. Take entire carefully accumulated online roll to 25/50 PLO game. Realise you don't know how to play PLO. Play anyway. Double up through suckout. Fail to leave table. Do the loots. Again.

Step 9: Go on sportsbetting binge, have very large bets on very poor races. Do the loots.

And so forth.

And that is how we tilt.

jbravado

El Stuntman wrote: »

Step 4: Return to casino and buy-in to cash game. Proceed to play like a donkey, eventually do the loot when your flopped pair draw are outflopped by trips with higher kicker. Tip the dealer muttering meancingly that was well done. Ignore inner pangs of embarrasement re this outburst.Thats just pride messing with you. It needed to be said.


tilt.

IMO

FunnyStuff

Roll management is the key. First off you're playing too high for your roll. 5% buy in is ok if playing hold-em, but for PLO should only be about 2%. So go down and play .25/.50. Second remove your roll from the site and leave it on Moneybookers or PayPal or however you deposit from, leaving only about 6 or 7 buy-ins worth on the site, this makes it harder to lose the lot in one fell swoop because of the fact you can set yourself deposit limits on many of the said deposit sites. I was the same as you at one stage, lost alot of money, including 8k in one night of drunken madness, i then i set myself the limits i've just layed out and havent made the same mistakes again. After all that its up to you, stick to your guns and try o be sensible.

Oh and try to learn some of the other games, like stud and 2-7 lowball, it helps to be able to take a break from a certain game every now and then.

Dave147

I did something similar last week, was running well and ended up losing $500 because I was playing too stupid. Came back last night and made a good few hundred of it back by just playing properly, not calling big re raises with AQ and JT like I was doing when on tilt, in fairness I usually control my tilt pretty well but it gets the better of everyone sometimes. I'm playing 200NL which is way out of my roll but I definitely play better there.

ianmc38

20BI is nowhere near enough for PLO variance. I've had several -10 buyin days though usually after buyin 6 my stats are 100/100/infinity. strangely enough I've been really tilted every time I've played recently. Playing some mixed games on stars where the buyin is $200. Funny how I couldnt give a fook about the money but losing or getting dogged in a pot can still make me go bananas.

RoadSweeper

I decided to try open shove 50 hands at 2nl to see if I could make a profit and ended down 10 buyins. So I tried to recoup my losses by open shoving another 72 hands and was down 15 buyins.

I put some sweet beats on people, but they were calling with all kinds of muck and putting beats on me too.

Whats the chances of being in profit after open shoving 50 hands. I'd say its pretty difficult.

El Stuntman

RoadSweeper wrote: »

Whats the chances of being in profit after open shoving 50 hands. I'd say its pretty difficult.

do it HU for extra sweetness imo

in fact, I'm off to try now