Tom McGurk broadcaster, poet & journalist tells it like it is re Lisbon

rebelmind

wicklowlad wrote: »

It is noted that you only mention public reps - what about all the other promoters of the yes vote are they contemptous??

Noted?
Public reps are voted in to office by the public, that should be self-evident.
'Other promoters' ,as you put it, are welcome to any debate, as long as their ulterior motives, & strength to promote them, do not outweight the rights/capabilities of other interested persons, who, by reason of nationality, do not have a choice to change the consequences (of such a franchise), to them.

'Globalisation', comes to mind ...

Tarobot

rebelmind wrote: »

'Other promoters' ,as you put it, are welcome to any debate, as long as their ulterior motives, & strength to promote them, do not outweight the rights/capabilities of other interested persons, who, by reason of nationality, do not have a choice to change the consequences (of such a franchise), to them.

'Globalisation', comes to mind ...

What? My brain hurts from trying to read this post.

wicklowlad's point was that you're quick to accuse those who disagree with you as being part of some big conspiracy to con the Irish voter.

It's very, very easy to use the same logic against those proposing a No vote, ie that they are only opposing it because they want to oppose the government's stance (Sinn Fein are the perfect example). See? Silly logic like that can be used to back any argument you want it to.

rebelmind

Tarobot wrote: »

What? My brain hurts from trying to read this post.

wicklowlad's point was that you're quick to accuse those who disagree with you as being part of some big conspiracy to con the Irish voter.

It's very, very easy to use the same logic against those proposing a No vote, ie that they are only opposing it because they want to oppose the government's stance (Sinn Fein are the perfect example). See? Silly logic like that can be used to back any argument you want it to.

wicklowlad made an interesting point about ulterior motives.
It is obviuos that everyone expressing an option in any election/referendum has motives.
Ulterior, however, implies, hidden or devious intention.
In ref to Sinn Fein, I can't answer for them, or any other organisation, frankly.
Al I can do, is offer you an interpretation of the current situation regarding the Lisbon Referendum.
In my opinion, & in reference to Mr McGurks article, the intervention of organisations, not of Irish origin (excepting Ryanair), cannot be fair or just in this democracy.

K-9

rebelmind wrote: »

wicklowlad made an interesting point about ulterior motives.
It is obviuos that everyone expressing an option in any election/referendum has motives.
Ulterior, however, implies, hidden or devious intention.
In ref to Sinn Fein, I can't answer for them, or any other organisation, frankly.
Al I can do, is offer you an interpretation of the current situation regarding the Lisbon Referendum.
In my opinion, & in reference to Mr McGurks article, the intervention of organisations, not of Irish origin (excepting Ryanair), cannot be fair or just in this democracy.

I would share your view on that.

I think Barosso and UKIP should keep out of it.

Tarobot

rebelmind wrote: »

wicklowlad made an interesting point about ulterior motives.
It is obviuos that everyone expressing an option in any election/referendum has motives.
Ulterior, however, implies, hidden or devious intention.
In ref to Sinn Fein, I can't answer for them, or any other organisation, frankly.
Al I can do, is offer you an interpretation of the current situation regarding the Lisbon Referendum.
In my opinion, & in reference to Mr McGurks article, the intervention of organisations, not of Irish origin (excepting Ryanair), cannot be fair or just in this democracy.

Oh, I agree totally that foreign individuals and organisations should not get involved.

But you accuse the business community and other non-governmental YES campaigners of only doing so because they're "singing for their supper". If you have evidence of this, I'd like to see it.

You also seem to be happy with the idea that people vote down the referendum for an unrelated matter, effectively making a mockery of the democratic mechanism that is the referendum. What a horrible sentiment.

rebelmind

Tarobot wrote: »

Oh, I agree totally that foreign individuals and organisations should not get involved.

But you accuse the business community and other non-governmental YES campaigners of only doing so because they're "singing for their supper". If you have evidence of this, I'd like to see it.

You also seem to be happy with the idea that people vote down the referendum for an unrelated matter, effectively making a mockery of the democratic mechanism that is the referendum. What a horrible sentiment.

People vote for all kinds of reasons, thats their perogative.
The issue is how they are influenced in voting.
If you boil it simply down to money.
The YES side in this campaign are spending between 10 - 15 million euro.
The NO approx 1 million.
I think the solution to this is to enact a law where both sides of any referendum have a set budget.

Rb

4th time you've been asked and have failed to provide any evidence to back your statement that Ireland is being or has been bullied, Rebelmind.

Vote Yes for sanity

rebelmind

Rb wrote: »

4th time you've been asked and have failed to provide any evidence to back your statement that Ireland is being or has been bullied, Rebelmind.

Vote Yes for sanity

The figures I have given speak for themselves.
McGurk is quite right in comparing this referendum to Honduras where, for example, Chiquita Corp would invest millions into a referendum, if the so-called government there were not already in their pockets.
Same goes for the sycophants & yesmen of FF, FG, Labour et al.
If that is not proof of bullying, I don't know what is.

wicklowlad

rebelmind wrote: »

The figures I have given speak for themselves.
McGurk is quite right in comparing this referendum to Honduras where, for example, Chiquita Corp would invest millions into a referendum, if the so-called government there were not already in their pockets.
Same goes for the sycophants & yesmen of FF, FG, Labour et al.
If that is not proof of bullying, I don't know what is.

Here we go again with these silly conspiracy theories - C/Corp would - if etc and then to follow up with 'that is proof of bullying'?? Where is the proof of bullying!! Then the 10 - 15 Million spend which is a 50% difference!! I wonder where that figure was plucked from likewise the 1 Million for the no campaign! When will you accept that eurosceptics like McGuirk always accentuate the negative and always set themselves up as overnight economists even overnight celebrity ones followed by a legal expert.

You also keep missing the point that its not only FF, Labour, FG etc etc that are looking for a yes vote but also the main unions, isme, ibec, etc etc etc.

I am not sure how much you know about Honduras (my workmate and friend lives in there!) but to compare a referendum there with Ireland is like the old apple and orange trick. At least we agree on the subject of ukip and the like sticking the nose in this referendum vote. As Prof Laffin siad on Newstalk Radio ' The brits who have been over here sticking their oars in should stay in uk and have their debate over there as they will at some soon - they have to decide if they are in the eu our out'

truthisfree

moondogspot wrote: »

http://www.sbpost.ie/commentandanalysis/euro-federalists-bully-us-and-buy-our-vote-44635.html



One of the best articles I've seen written about Lisbon yet and I have to agree with him

wholeheartedly. I posted this because I thought it deserved a discussion of its own. It is very

clear, that we the Irish, are been bullied & bought to pass Lisbon. :mad:

Just bullied, the pieces of silver will not be delivered, sad day for democracy and for this little country.

wicklowlad

truthisfree wrote: »

Just bullied, the pieces of silver will not be delivered, sad day for democracy and for this little country.

These are just more silly comments - I was going to say contributions but that would be wrong. Just bullied!! Who is bullied and by who?. The great thing about demoracy is people can turn off the radio, put the paper in the bin, switch of the tv etc etc and don't have to listen to anybody either from the yes or no side. You don't have to vote unlike Australia where you are legally obliged to vote so again where is the bulling in Ireland?.

Your other comments don't warrant a response.

The Volt

truthisfree wrote: »

Just bullied, the pieces of silver will not be delivered, sad day for democracy and for this little country.

Is there someone watching over you as you vote this friday? Last time I checked you could vote whichever way you want. No one is forcing you to vote a certain way.

rebelmind

Voltwad wrote: »

Is there someone watching over you as you vote this friday? Last time I checked you could vote whichever way you want. No one is forcing you to vote a certain way.

Erm , your forgetting that your existence doesn't begin in the polling booth, pencil in hand.
the process is a wee bit more complex

The Volt

rebelmind wrote: »

Erm , your forgetting that your existence doesn't begin in the polling booth, pencil in hand.
the process is a wee bit more complex

The decision that matters does. You're free to make that decision.

rebelmind

Voltwad wrote: »

The decision that matters does. You're free to make that decision.

Yes you are, but I'm reminded about what Orwell said about the invisible cell....

strawdog

It's a good article. I thought last Sunday's Business Post gave some of the best coverage and analysis on both sides. For others still unsure and trying to make up their mind (which I believe is the silent majority, or shall I say not shoutin-in-your-face-majority) here are a few more articles from that edition to weigh up (in alphabetical order!)

No
Vincent Browne, one of Ireland’s most prominent lefties, seems to get more cranky with age, but I think has his heart in the right place.
http://www.thepost.ie/commentandanalysis/deference-will-again-be-the-undoing-of-the-irish-44666.html

Yes
Editorial – Obviously unsurprising that a business newspaper editorial is backing the Yes side but it gives a good overview of some of the trade-offs and reservations in voting Yes
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2009/09/27/story44640.asp


Yes
David McWilliams – To be honest I find him a bit irritating (especially on TV) but he writes well and his economic understanding is better than most

http://www.thepost.ie/commentandanalysis/say-yes-then-sort-out-our-own-mess-44641.html

Anyway don’t think it makes the decision any easier but hopefully balances and clarifies some of the issues at stake. Really so sick and appalled at the standard and tone of the public debate.

rebelmind

K-9 wrote: »

I would share your view on that.

I think Barosso and UKIP should keep out of it.

Yes & so should Ryanair, Pfizer, Intel etc etc

CiDeRmAn

Surely the idea of companys and businesses that are coming out in favour of a yes vote are doing so to counter a previous arguement, by the No side in the previous campaign that the ratification of Lisbon would drive out investment.
Therefore, it was the No side that dragged such multinational companies into the debate.

As for the UKIP, who really needs the input of a bunch of self serving right wing trolls?
The NF in suits is all they are, and have little regard for any minority in the UK, including the Irish, so, do we really reckon their advice on Lisbon is a good thing?
In the same way I think Ryanair looking for a Yes is gut twisting, so is the UKIP rolling in behind a No.
Why should public representatives from another jurisdiction completely come in here and tell us how to vote?
I would say the same to Tony Benn, a man I normally respect, but who campaigned on the airwaves for a No vote last time too.

As for the legitamacy of a second vote on Lisbon,
It was plainly obvious that the public were sorely under informed about the treaty last time and the bulk of the voters had no idea what the Lisbon treaty was about and so voted against it, having been innundated with negative worse case scenarios and down right lies the last time out, about conscription, abortion etc.
This time the goverment and parties of the Dail have got off of their backsides and turned to educate themselves and the public they represent about the Lisbon treaty.
The failure of the last referendum was a failure of the Dail as a whole and a triumph of those that would keep people ignorant and feed them fear to make them take the perceived safe route and vote no.
Some may argue that this time the Yes side have used fear to bludgeon people into voting Yes, but this is false, the Yes side have made certain claims about being a part of Europe, remaining a central state to the EU process, and certainly it would have seemed that the effect of the last No vote was to show just how important we are.
We have agined so much from being a part of Europe, far more than in the years before when our fortunes were so intertwined with the UK.

We have delusions of self determination, do we really believe that as a country we could ever hope to defend ourselves, as a neutral nation, from invaders, from terrorists?
No, not a hope, we would have to rely on the existing military structures we belong to, the UN for example, as we allow someone elses hardwork and professionalism dig us out of a mess, every time a vessel gets into difficulties it seems we need to call the Royal Navy to come to our rescue.
We would almost certainly be all part of the greater german reich had our neighbours not sacrificed so much, while we hid behind a comforting shield of "neutrality"
Cowards is what that made us, and that's the legacy we leave behind us as we ignore our responsibilties as a member of the EU.