Can we do anything about our dog?

jimmycrackcorm

We've had our dog for three years from being a puppy but now we don't know if we can trust her any longer. I don't know what breed she is as we rescued her from a shelter and she is some sort of mongrel; As such we didn't know what sort of temperment to expect, however it hasn't turned out very well.

She is basically untrained for obedience and generally doesn't listen to us if we call her. In fact if we go out to bring her in from the garden she runs and hides instead. However once she is in we can get her to sit, lie down etc for treats.

If she gets out the front she hides under the car. As both my OH and myself try to get her out she has turned very vicious and bit my OH and I narrowly missed getting bit also this evening as I was putting some chocolate treats out in front of her to coax her out. Under the car seems to be some sort of territory thing as once she is back in the house she is back to normal. I don't know if we can really trust her. We have a child and she is generally ok with him but isn't as tolerant as she is with us, however she hates other children and when our childs friends have been around she will turn vicious on them if they even try to pet her.

Is there anything we can do other than get rid of her? If she can turn on us and attack us like that then what;s to say she might one day become vicious in a normal situation.

PetrovthePrat

Hey,you've asked if there's anything you can do besides getting rid of her. What have you tried? You said she's not obedience trained. Dude,get her trained. For her sake and for the sake of how good a pet you could have,get her trained. Either in classes or at home,but get her trained.

meepins

If you happen to have the National geographic channel you can watch some dog whisperer episodes. There is so much good advice on that show and it will give you a better understanding of what is required to train your dog and repair your relationship.

We have a child and she is generally ok with him but isn't as tolerant as she is with us, however she hates other children and when our childs friends have been around she will turn vicious on them if they even try to pet her.

I don't know the context of these encounters but she may be fearful of children.
It is worrying she turns aggressive particularly with children and it's understandable why you are thinking of getting rid but you can probably rectify this if you persevere and get professional advice.

Best of luck and tell us how it works out for you.

jimmycrackcorm

What are the chances of success when the dog is three years old? Even with training - can we really trust the dog especially as we are thinking of having a baby?

dee o gee

meepins wrote: »

If you happen to have the National geographic channel you can watch some dog whisperer episodes. There is so much good advice on that show and it will give you a better understanding of what is required to train your dog and repair your relationship.

Please don't just copy what you see on the dog whisperer, what you see working on one dog doesn't necessarily mean it will work on another, all dogs are different. There interesting programmes to watch and they do give a bit of an insight to dog behaviour but some of the things he does I don't fully agree with such as alpha rolls.
I would suggest getting in touch with a good dog behaviourist, as really nobody can suggest what to do with him without actually seeing him especially as it is quite a serious issue.

Edited to add: The chances of retraining a dog at three are good, they are still quite young at three, but I still do suggest going to a good behaviourist as to work out why she is snapping.
Is it something just recently that she has started or has she always been like this??

Magenta

dee o gee wrote: »

Please don't just copy what you see on the dog whisperer, what you see working on one dog doesn't necessarily mean it will work on another, all dogs are different.

Don't follow the Dog Whisperer OP. Cesar Milan's methods are based on bullying and intimidating the dog and from the sounds of things, your dog will not react well to it.

You say she is not obedience trained. That is not her fault, but yours. Dogs do not train themselves, you have to train them.

meepins

dee o gee wrote: »

Please don't just copy what you see on the dog whisperer, what you see working on one dog doesn't necessarily mean it will work on another, all dogs are different.

I was suggesting the program as it gives insight into the amount of work required to rehabilitate dogs with varying problems. There are plenty of good things to learn from the program whether you have had lots of dogs or are planning on getting a dog. The guy is a professional and always states on his show not to attempt his techniques unless you are experienced.

persevere and get professional advice

^

Top Dog

Get a dog behaviourist out to your house, or get the dog enrolled in some obedience classes for a start.

Do you spend much time with the dog? Like going for walks and basically building the bond with it?

And at 3 years of age its definitely NOT too late to start - many dogs are rehomed from rescues that are much older than that and they can learn so no reason that your dog can't too.

YOURFACE!

You need to bulid up a relationship with the dog and then he will begin to trust you more. I agree that brining him to training classes will help this, taking him for walks and playing will help establish a good bond. A happy is dog is a well trained dog that loves being with his family and knows what his job is!
I would be wary about having kids around him. You know how kids are they can be a bit rough so for the dogs sake and the kids, get them to leave him alone.

Please do not use Cesar Milans approach to training your dog. He really is a bully and is only happy when the dogs are totally submissive. You can have a well trained, happy dog without having a submissive dog. Try using positive reinforcement techniques like clicker training instead. Heres a link to Karen Pryors website http://www.clickertraining.com/ I have used clicker training with my dogs and horses in the past and its amzing. They really want to learn and have a great time doing it! Good Luck!

Lee1982

if you have her from a pup you should have started training from day 1 its not too late 3 is not old at all get on to a trainer asap and have her put on the right road,with time and determination she will be fine

petangels

Tara and Lisa are great.. check out dog training ireland

lorebringer

My advise is to get in a good behaviourist and trainer, Dog Training Ireland is a good place to start. Most dogs are not "vicious", they just react badly to certain situations. Get an expert in and see what can be done. Good luck!

Lizard Queen

I would recomends anne rodgers she is an animal behaviourist and shes very good and patient check out wagsandwoofs.ie

Aru

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

We've had our dog for three years from being a puppy but now we don't know if we can trust her any longer. I don't know what breed she is as we rescued her from a shelter and she is some sort of mongrel; As such we didn't know what sort of temperment to expect, however it hasn't turned out very well.

She is basically untrained for obedience and generally doesn't listen to us if we call her. In fact if we go out to bring her in from the garden she runs and hides instead. However once she is in we can get her to sit, lie down etc for treats.

If she gets out the front she hides under the car. As both my OH and myself try to get her out she has turned very vicious and bit my OH and I narrowly missed getting bit also this evening as I was putting some chocolate treats out in front of her to coax her out. Under the car seems to be some sort of territory thing as once she is back in the house she is back to normal. I don't know if we can really trust her. We have a child and she is generally ok with him but isn't as tolerant as she is with us, however she hates other children and when our childs friends have been around she will turn vicious on them if they even try to pet her.

Is there anything we can do other than get rid of her? If she can turn on us and attack us like that then what;s to say she might one day become vicious in a normal situation.

so shes obedient inside but not outside ya?
is she lead trained?
if she is then take her out to the backyard on the lead a few times a day for short sessions(5mins)retrain her to the basic commands esp sit stay and come... be gentle esp wit the come command she needs to want to come to you and not be afraid...
get her used to this on the lead before you let her off at all when you trust her off lead ..put her back on it and do the same in the front of the house without the car their...when you trust her to obey bring in the car...by this stage she should be more intreasted in you than going under the car..
also make the backyard a fun place for her to play with you fetch can be a great game once the dog learns recall..

if she doesnt like strange kids petting her then put her in a different room to the kids and dont let her have the opertunity to bite them at least until you feel she can be trusted..

with your own child you need to establish new boundrys for both the dog and the child...
some dogs simply do not like kids rough play..
so teach the kid not to play rough or harass the dog..
kids can sometimes be quicker to retrain than dogs so thats a good place to start...

Does the dog have anywhere she can go to be alone and just relax..a basket,crate etc.. if she has make that the dogs place that once shes in it noone is aloud to disrupt or play with her(this includes adults.kids learn by example)if that place is the couch then change it to her basket..dogs taking over the couch or a chair is not a good thing..

get your kid to play with the dog in different ways fetch etc
also get your kid to feed the dog her meals(after ye have eaten) the dog will learn to associate the kid with good things like food and will learn her place in the house rankings (beneath the child)

just a few ideas you could try...good luck with your dog and dont give up on her yet..
but if you are seriously thinking abut rehoming her then contact the shelter you got her from they mite be able to find her a family with no kids

mollycash

for as long as i can remember we have taken in stray dogs and cats, some old some young. i honestly believe if you take the time and have patience any dog can be trained and will eventually bond with you.
people think once you stop it pissing on your carpets then job done then wonder why 2 years on the dog is still misbehaving and causing hassle.

honestly 50% of people with dogs out there shouldnt have them.

argosy2006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cffj0vOBWsc&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZD_p1trwYM&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfijzsKvVis&feature=related

PetrovthePrat

mollycash wrote: »

for as long as i can remember we have taken in stray dogs and cats, some old some young. i honestly believe if you take the time and have patience any dog can be trained and will eventually bond with you.
people think once you stop it pissing on your carpets then job done then wonder why 2 years on the dog is still misbehaving and causing hassle.

honestly 50% of people with dogs out there shouldnt have them.

So very true. I really think education should be mandatory for animal owners. But Ireland could never introduce something sensible.

Steve30x

[EDIT] For the sake of not starting any more arguments I am deleting my post.

Whispered

People who don't agree with you and with intimidating tactics when it comes to training are oversensitive?? You then say in your next breath that you're "changing your methods". If you agree with bullying and intimidation for your dog, then so be it, you're not going to change based on "oversensitive" advice, but please stop trying to advocate these methods with people. You started a thread where you said some things people did not agree with (rightly so IMO) and since you've mentioned it in 2 seperate threads that I've noticed. Both times saying people are oversensitive. For your own enjoyment of the forum (it has loads of lovely people, great advice and a good few laughs), I'd suggest you get over it and try engage in conversation without trying to get sly digs in at people in unrelated threads.

You're right, humans are not wild animals, then again neither are domestic dogs. (the clue is in the word "domestic")

cruel things are not on TV?? Are you serious? Watch "the deadliest catch" for the crab fishing, cruelty at it's finest. I'm sure there are many more showing cruelty, thats the first which springs into my head.

I used to watch the dog whisperer and I thought that while I didn't agree with some of what he did, some of it was great to see in action, until I saw 2 particular shows. One was where a dog had a prong collar - and he LEFT IT ON. I've noticed it a lot since. Absolutely disgraceful. Anyone worth the paper their "qualifications" are written on knows that to use painful methods on ANY dog, but especially a nervous one is going to be counter productive.

Then a recent one, he wanted to teach the dogs to stay away from snakes. A very noble idea, yes, and maybe the shock collar he resorted to use was the only way, certainly better than a dog being bitten and dying. But why, if it, "doesn't hurt" did he not take a shock himself? To see poor daddy pull to get away from him when the shock hit him, and ceasar walking him towards the snake, knowing his dog would get a shock. It sickens me to even think about it.

OP you have every chance to retrain your dog, but please get professional advice. After a few years of little training, you will most likely need it. It will be worth it. Good luck.

PetrovthePrat

I can see this thread degenerating into an argument about training methods,which is fine,I like reading vitirol and venom online,but it's not gonna be helpful for the OP. JimmyCrackCorm,get yourself a class you're comfortable with,or at the very least get a book (or a dvd,better again) from a reputable trainer. As for a certain Mexican of note,there's a huge disclaimer that flashes up every time he meets a dog saying "don't try this at home". Not a ringing endorsment for imitation.

wexford202

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

What are the chances of success when the dog is three years old? Even with training - can we really trust the dog especially as we are thinking of having a baby?

OP you do not seem overly like someone that is looking for to get the dogs temperment sorted but more looking for someone to say get rid of it.

The answer is I would never trust any dog with a baby whether it is the best in the world or the worst in the world. My do is great but will be very supervised when my baby arrives. I can't trust him in a room with my shoes so I certainly cannot trust him with a baby on his own.

When you got the dog I am sure you were aware of the fact that a dog does tend to live quite a while. so if you were palnning a baby maybe you should have thought more about getting the dog in the first place.

The reality of it is if you want the dog sorted go to the professionals with it and if you don't its back to the pound for the doggie. The reality is nobody knows when they go to the shelter to pick their dog what it will be like however you should have been aware that you were picking something that you should have been willing to put the effort in at all reasonable costs to give the dog a fair chance.

Steve30x

@ PetrovthePrat I wasnt trying to start an argument but it does seem like some people think so. I retract my previous statement (Again)

Whispered

Steve30x wrote: »

.... no matter how over sensitive you are. ....a hatred towards you

well thats getting a bit personal isn't it.

Steve30x wrote: »

Your continualy on my case

no I'm not, I commented on your posts, as did many people. This is a public forum after all. No matter what you say, people will comment on it. But what is the point pulling grievences from threads into other ones? Just have the conversation thats being had, and talk about the other posts on the other thread.

Starting a thread with "some people are oversensitive", due to a conversation which is completly seperate is silly IMO.

Anyway, this is pulling the thread OT, OP & mods I'm sorry.

Steve, I'm not getting into this with you here, again I would suggest commenting on posts as opposed to insulting the posters. Or reporting problem posts.

I'm not going to avoid commenting on your posts, as that is what the forum is for but just report the post if you don't like it.

Steve30x

helena.ryan wrote: »

well thats getting a bit personal isn't it.

no I'm not, I commented on your posts, as did many people. This is a public forum after all. No matter what you say, people will comment on it. But what is the point pulling grievences from threads into other ones? Just have the conversation thats being had, and talk about the other posts on the other thread.

Starting a thread with "some people are oversensitive", due to a conversation which is completly seperate is silly IMO.

Anyway, this is pulling the thread OT, OP & mods I'm sorry.

Steve, I'm not getting into this with you here, again I would suggest commenting on posts as opposed to insulting the posters. Or reporting problem posts.

I'm not going to avoid commenting on your posts, as that is what the forum is for but just report the post if you don't like it.

I'm not going say what I want to say on here any more becauser its OT> Read your PM.

jimmycrackcorm

wexford202 wrote: »

OP you do not seem overly like someone that is looking for to get the dogs temperment sorted but more looking for someone to say get rid of it.

We like the dog and our child adores her. I just don't want to turn round one day and find out that despite training the dog, she turns on someone. Perhaps the right answer, is to get rid of the dog....

The answer is I would never trust any dog with a baby whether it is the best in the world or the worst in the world. My do is great but will be very supervised when my baby arrives. I can't trust him in a room with my shoes so I certainly cannot trust him with a baby on his own.

When I say baby, I'm thinking more as a toddler and up as obviously a baby wouldn't be left alone.

When you got the dog I am sure you were aware of the fact that a dog does tend to live quite a while. so if you were palnning a baby maybe you should have thought more about getting the dog in the first place.

Why does a dog somehow prevent an accidental pregnancy?

The reality of it is if you want the dog sorted go to the professionals with it and if you don't its back to the pound for the doggie. The reality is nobody knows when they go to the shelter to pick their dog what it will be like however you should have been aware that you were picking something that you should have been willing to put the effort in at all reasonable costs to give the dog a fair chance.

It might be worth it if results could be guaranteed but I wouldn't like to bet my child's safety on it. Going back to your first point I'd like to know the facts instead of the theory. The Vet told my OH that if the dog isn't trained properly by three years of age it is very difficult to change.

We spent a lot of money with a pet "Psychologist" a while back when she first attacked a neighbours kid when he came into the back garden to retrieve his ball. This incidentally was the first time she turned to being vicious - we never had any sign before and it was, I believe, a territorial issue.

star-pants

OP - unfortunately none of us can really say if your dog is re-trainable or not as we don't personally know the dog.

If you love the dog and would like to keep it - then I would try training, the trainers are professionals and you could ask their advice as to whether they believe the dog can be made safer around your family/neighbours.

Obviously you are concerned for your own and other children as you should be, but it also may not be the dogs fault if it's not shown enough discipline (I'm not giving out to you btw, and you may not have been aware, as might some of us not be, but the dog might have needed a firmer hand (not literally!) regarding training).

If you're willing to give it a try - please do. If not, then when giving up the dog make sure you let the shelter (or wherever you give the dog) know of the dogs behaviour and any training/psychology you've had done.

Magenta

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why does a dog somehow prevent an accidental pregnancy?

Preventing accidental pregancy is up to youself, no one said it had anything to do with the dog.

Whispered

OP if you do have to get rid of the dog, please don't bring it to the pound. Contact a shelter who will take a dog with agression problems. TBH it doesn't sound too bad and in the right environment, withput the worry of a new baby, the dog could do very well.

I think it's very important to let people know that if your dog appears agressive, or snaps there is an alternative to the pound or getting it PTS. A friend of my mam got her JR PTS after it bit a child who had been harassing it in the garden for hours. He was so well loved and great with kids usually, but got hurt and snapped. I only found out about it after the dog was PTS. The whole family was devastated, but thought that it was what had to be done. They didn't realise that there are other options.

wexford202

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Why does a dog somehow prevent an accidental pregnancy?

I never said your dog prevents accidential pregnancy??????????

I am saying when you get a dog it is meant to fit in to all aspects of your life.

You are now bring up different things like he has bitten a child, and also that you have already gotten help for it.

If you don't want your dog don't keep it.

Also don't do to the pound or the shelter again if you are not willing to see the full picture. Many dogs there have been mistreated and have behaviour problem. When you go to the pound you are looking to give an animal a second chance and willing to do all you can to take care of it.

If you wanted an easy life with your dog and hassle free it wouldn't be the first place I would go.

Ther is nobody in the world going to give you a pat on the back and say well done you tried. That just doesn't happen. If you instill no confidence int he dog which you obviously don't then don't keep it.

I am not saying the above to be mean or cruel to you. I am just being real about it.

Fannymcslap

mollycash wrote: »

for as long as i can remember we have taken in stray dogs and cats, some old some young. i honestly believe if you take the time and have patience any dog can be trained and will eventually bond with you.
people think once you stop it pissing on your carpets then job done then wonder why 2 years on the dog is still misbehaving and causing hassle.

honestly 50% of people with dogs out there shouldnt have them.

That's the most sense I've seen on this thread, well said.

funkyjebus

If you are that worried, especially given there is a child involved, ask a professional, not boards.ie

kildara

wexford202 wrote: »

When you got the dog I am sure you were aware of the fact that a dog does tend to live quite a while. so if you were palnning a baby maybe you should have thought more about getting the dog in the first place.

I saw this and felt compelled to reply to this: I'm sure when the OP got the dog (correct me if I am wrong) that they were hoping for a well-rounded, well-behaved, placid animal - not one that displays aggresion.
People don't get dogs with the intention that they are going to turn out vicious.
I often see comments similar to this, basically chastising owners who are apprehensive about their dog/s and children. I often think that those who makes these comments must never have experienced the pain and heartache of having a dog that displays less than ideal behaviour.
If my interpretation of your post is wrong, I apologise.

wexford202 wrote: »

The reality of it is if you want the dog sorted go to the professionals with it and if you don't its back to the pound for the doggie. The reality is nobody knows when they go to the shelter to pick their dog what it will be like however you should have been aware that you were picking something that you should have been willing to put the effort in at all reasonable costs to give the dog a fair chance.

I agree with the rest of your post which states that the OP should get professional help.



OP, I know you said you have paid alot of money before for help, but I think the only way through this is with further professional help. I think it is possible to have both kids and dogs (even ones you do not fully trust). YOu can build a run for the dog so that the kids can still go out and play in the garden. And just be extremely vigilent whenever they are together.
I really hope you get something sorted, and please keep us informed.

.

wexford202

kildara wrote: »

I often see comments similar to this, basically chastising owners who are apprehensive about their dog/s and children. I often think that those who makes these comments must never have experienced the pain and heartache of having a dog that displays less than ideal behaviour.
If my interpretation of your post is wrong, I apologise.

.

Hi Kildara

I myself have a staffie who although would melt my heart I am also very realisitc that he does have some behaviour problems. His problems are with other dogs. This has caused me pain and grief believe me.

What I am really saying is when you get a dog from the pound there is a reason it was put in there if it is not a pup. In many cases I understand it can be due to people moving and so on and so fort but in most cases it always returns to someone not having the time the dog requires.

When someone goes to the pound they should be first of all know that they are resucing a dog and they are willing to try do whatever it takes to sort the dog out.

The OP since said that they had spent money trying to sort the issues so in fairness to the OP they may have tried.

With regards to the baby thing I personally wouldn't keep a dog that was displaying agression with people near my baby but I also would have made sure to get my dog from a breeder or if not as a pup from the piound as that is the only way you can ever be sure of the temperament 100% (Unless you are the dog whisperer)

jimmyn

Hi Jimmycrackcorm, I'm sorry to hear about your dog. You're getting lots of advice here, some good, some not so good.

Cesar (The dog whisperer) is actually very good, but he knows when to pressure a dog, and he knows when to back off - something most people copying him don't. If you watch the program, take to heart his advice about establishing yourself as the pack leader, but be careful about copying his handling of the dogs.

It sounds to me like your dog is very territorial and dominant. He thinks he's the boss, and believes it's his job to protect his territory. It's not his territory - it's yours. You need to establish yourself as the boss. It's not a democracy. There is plenty of good info on the web about how to do this.

Where does your dog stay when you're at work? In the house or in a secure yard? Is he on a chain? If so, this is really not a good idea. How much exercise does the dog get? Lack of physical and mental stimulation can cause all sorts of problems. When you throw treats to your dog to lure him out from under the car, you're just rewarding his territorial behaviour. You need to stop doing that. Is it doggie chocolate or real chocolate? Real chocolate is toxic to dogs. Anyway, why is he outside the house without a lead? You need to have him under control at all times.

Get your dog into a good obedience class. Positive Reinforcement (+R) methods are great for puppies and nervous dogs, but if you want reliability, especially in the face of distractions, you'll likely need to incorporate some compulsion methods.

If your dog is showing aggression towards you, you may want a tool which allows for corrections without the dog knowing they came from you. An e-collar is good for this. If you go down the e-collar route, get a dogtra or tritronics model, not the cheap PetSafe ones in the pet shops. Find a trainer who can teach you to use it properly, using low stim methods. At the very least study carefully the articles here: http://loucastle.com/. Many trainers have discovered that training basic obedience with an e-collar using low-stim methods can significantly reduce problems with aggression. E-collars have a lot of detractors on the web, usually based on emotionally charged ignorance of how the tool is properly used.

I don't want to get into an argument about tools or methods - find something that works for you and gives you the reults you need. Above all, get obedience training, and establish yourself as the boss of the household.

Don't let children pet the dog for a while. Children are a lot of pressure on a dog - squealing, flailing arms, full of excitement. It's too much for your dog at the moment. He needs to be carefully socialised with them, under controlled, supervised conditions. Socialisation really needs to be done before the dog is 4 months old, but better late than never.

funkyjebus

@ jimmyn

On the ball. Good post.

Listen to the man Jimmycrackcorm, he speaks wisdom.

EGAR

E-collars have a lot of detractors on the web, usually based on emotionally charged ignorance of how the tool is properly used.

And of course it is really wise to suggest something like that to someone who has a dog with problems. It has nothing to do with ignorance when reward based training methods are so much more effective albeit more time consuming .

Blueprint

jimmyn wrote: »

E-collars have a lot of detractors on the web, usually based on emotionally charged ignorance of how the tool is properly used.

I've seen a trainer with decades of experience (as was always pointed out when one queried any of his methods) put an e-collar on an 11 month old dog whose owners hadn't taught their dog even how to sit and they had those owners shock the dog for not sitting fast enough. The dog was yelping loudly in pain and was completely depressed and cowed. The week before he was just a normal over-boisterous dog.

As for the link to Lou Castle's site, I suggest a Google search of his contributions to other forums for an insight into his character before following his advice.

boodlesdoodles

A friend of mine was having trouble with her dog and went to a so-called reputable trainer, who has loads of ads in local papers etc. Straight away he said e-collar, without properly assessing the dog just going on her description of what the dog does. He wouldn't even meet the dog in person. When she questioned him, he basically told her she was ignorant in her training methods and needed to face reality and an e-collar would sort the dog out. I gave her Jan Fennell's book (can't remember exact title) which is all about placement in the pack and positive reinforcement and that dog is now a completely different character. E-collar is the quick solution to a long term problem. Oh and he wanted to charge her €250 just for the collar and then he'd decide what he'd charge for training. :eek:

jimmyn

And of course it is really wise to suggest something like that to someone who has a dog with problems.

The dog doesn't need to have problems to use an e-collar. It's just a tool for training. It won't make the problems better or worse in and of itself. It's the training that counts.

reward based training methods are so much more effective

No they're not. They're fine for puppies, small house dogs, or nervous dogs who need to have their confidence built up. If you want off lead reliability - say you want to let your dog run free in the fields and be sure he'll come when called (even in the middle of chasing a rabbit), then you need to use compulsive methods. The dog needs to know there is a consequence to disobedience, other than just not getting a treat. Reward based training, clicker training etc up to 6 months, then compulsion once the puppy starts becoming a dog.

...put an e-collar on an 11 month old dog whose owners hadn't taught their dog even how to sit

Nothing wrong with this. 11 months is old enough, and the e-collar can be used to teach new commands. Those familiar with the operant conditioning quadrants would call it negative reinforcement. The same principle as the ear pinch or toe hitch used to teach the forced retrieve. Done properly, it will not hurt the dog.

The dog was yelping loudly in pain

Then the trainer wasn't doing it right. The stim level was too high. When low level stim is used, it's quite difficult to even spot if the dog has felt anything. Sometimes a dog will yelp once as a result of being startled (like if you were sitting in a dark room watching a movie and I came up behind you and tapped you on the shoulder), but if the dog is repeatedly vocalising, then the level is way too high. Here is a video of what it should look like when a dog gets stimmed at his working level (it happens 30 seconds in): http://s245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/denis50/?action=view&current=MVI_0007.flv

If you have a personal issue with Lou Castle, check out some of Robin Mac Farlane's (That's My Dog Inc) vids on youtube. Here's one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgFTXmJKw4

The method uses very low stim levels to get the dog's attention when he strays to the end of the leash, and rewards when the dog comes in to heel. Very humane and balanced, and not in any way painful or abusive to the dog.

Oh and he wanted to charge her €250 just for the collar

That's about what the good ones cost, by the time you ship them into Ireland and get the 220V charger. http://dogtra.com/

The cheap ones in the pet shops aren't great in how they deliver stim levels. You could end up using an inappropriate level of stim on the dog.

E-collar is the quick solution to a long term problem

It's not a solution to any problem. There doesn't even have to be a problem. It's just a training tool. Effective if used properly, potentially damaging if not used properly - just like any other tool. I know of trainers who call e-collars cruel (having never used one), yet will happily hang puppies with choke chains. WTF? A choke chain is fine in experienced hands, but can cause massive damage if used improperly. Even a plain flat buckle collar can cause tracheal damage if the dog is heavily restrained by it.

Aside from the e-collar, probably the most humane and safe training collar is the prong collar. Even though it looks like a medieval torture device. There are pet shops here who refuse to sell prong collars because of what they look like, yet have a large range of choke chains. The prong is in fact far safer and gentler on the dog.

Anyway, I didn't come on here to tell you to use an e-collar. I'm telling you to get obedience training. How you do that, and which trainer and method is up to you. Find something that works for you and your dog, and be mindful to think of the dogs best interests, not your own.

I gave her Jan Fennell's book (can't remember exact title) which is all about placement in the pack and positive reinforcement and that dog is now a completely different character

Great. I'm glad it worked out for your friend.

Kelly Madeupski

hiya,

i have 2 pups and when we got our first one, he was a little sh*t. my friend sent me a book, Puppies for Dummies - the big yellow book. we cant afford obedience school so this book was a godsend - go straight to easons and get it, i promise its worth it. it is very good at explaining the psyche of a dog. i dunno if your girl is young or old but the same theory still applies. it sounds to me like your dog is also not getting enough attention 1-1, the way children are, probably your child is paying the dog loads of attention like all kids do - theyre good friends maybe, so the dog wouldnt ever hurt her. anyway, the book basically tells you that dogs are like small kids and you reward the dog when she is good and ignore her when she is bad. my pup kept racing out the front door and we'd chase after him and couldnt catch him cos he'd snap if we went to grab him. so now we just ignore him and leave the front door open. usually he's back within 5 mins and he gets praise when he does. if your pooch is just hiding under the car, she is safe. leave the door open and she will come back in, dont give her any attention when she is bold. when she does the right thing and comes inside, give her a treat. when you walk her, if she pulls on the lead, walk backwards and look her in the eye as you are - shows her youre in charge. when she is bold, dont ever shout her name, this means whenever you call her she thinks shes in trouble. say NO or some other distinctive word and always use that word when shes in trouble. dont smack her with your own hand, always use a rolled up newspaper. stuff like this helps. its so hard to give her lots of attention when you have a kid too but you're just going to have to set aside an hour a nite for the dog - play fetch games or just talk to her. hope this helps!! it helped with my pair, theyre still hyper though but they have lovely tempraments! sounds like you really love your doggie so dont give up!!

Satyr_The_Great

www.citizencanineireland.com or www.ohmydog.ie Emmaline Duffy - Fallon, one of the best dog trainers in Ireland.

Whispered

jimmyn wrote: »

. If you want off lead reliability - say you want to let your dog run free in the fields and be sure he'll come when called (even in the middle of chasing a rabbit), then you need to use compulsive methods.

I don't agree. Compulsive methods do work but they are not, by any means, the ONLY way to ensure your dog returns to you even while hunting. My father hunts, while I hate the idea of hunting, his relationship with his dogs is amazing.

He is "top dog" no doubt about that but has never had to resort to using a shock collar. His dogs constantly have one eye on him, if he nods his head, they come back, almost every time. As they cover long distances from him, this works out very well, if the dogs are hunting into the wind, they wont hear a call as the wind would carry his voice away, also shouting around a field tends to make the hunt a bit less successful.

Walking off lead with my dads dogs was never an issue. It was what they did. Seasoned hunters woud stop a chase at a command when I was only a child. They weren't spoiled, they were not part of the family, I don't agree with this at all. But they were not subjected to cruel methods of training either.

(I wish I knew how he achieved it TBH as I could do with a few manners on my own dog!)

Call me Socket

Kelly Madeupski wrote: »

dont smack her with your own hand, always use a rolled up newspaper.

Oh for gods sake! Why smack a dog at all?? You only teach a dog fear by using physical punishment.

Kelly Madeupski wrote: »

so now we just ignore him and leave the front door open.

Why on earth would you leave your door open knowing that your dog will get out? It's not very responsible to not have your dog under control.

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

We like the dog and our child adores her. I just don't want to turn round one day and find out that despite training the dog, she turns on someone. Perhaps the right answer, is to get rid of the dog....

I agree with you, simply because I'm getting the impression from your posts that you're not committed to putting in the work required to rehabilitate the dog.
If you adopted her from a rescue group you need to contact them- they most likely have a return policy on the dogs they home.

ghost_ie

Do you have gates on your driveway? If you do, you could try the closing the gates so she can't get out (providing she can't get out of the garden any other way), then walking inside and closing the front door. Keep an eye out and when she comes to the front door to be let in, wait a couple of minutes before you open it.

My youngest dog, aged 2, is obedient indoors and when we're in the park, but when in the back garden would never come in when called. I would simply shut the door and leave her outside (there's no exit from the back garden) - within 2 minutes she'd be sitting at the door waiting to be let in. While she still doesn't always come when called, shutting the door is guaranteed to have her sitting outside inside 10 seconds.

I would also advise that you don't leave her alone with any children. My dogs are 10, 7 and 2 and love my granddaughter. However, like most young children, she tends to haul them around and generally take liberties with them, and an adult needs to be there to tell the children when to stop. No matter how good natured a dog is, there is only so much he/she can take.

jimmyn

you reward the dog when she is good and ignore her when she is bad. my pup kept racing out the front door and we'd chase after him and couldnt catch him cos he'd snap if we went to grab him. so now we just ignore him and leave the front door open. usually he's back within 5 mins and he gets praise when he does

You're happy with this?? I think even the most frenzied, frothing-at-the-mouth "+R only" zealot would be horrified by this. At least I hope they would...

His dogs constantly have one eye on him, if he nods his head, they come back, almost every time

Your Dad sounds like a very skilled gundog trainer. Fair play

They weren't spoiled, they were not part of the family... I wish I knew how he achieved it TBH

Gundog trainers of your Dad's (and my Dad's) generation typically used compulsive methods to train their dogs. Choke chains were the norm, sometimes just slip leads ("retriever" leads). The "leash pop" was the primary means of administering a correction. Such dogs were treated as working animals, not children. From the perspective of your worldview, it probably sounds like I'm calling your Dad a bad guy. I'm actually not, because that was how you produced a good working dog in those days (and I'm talking only 20 years ago). These methods were in use for many many years, because they worked. But it wasn't all bad for the dogs. Plenty of praise was used to reinforce correct behaviour too. It was a balance of reward and compulsive methods. Read Peter Moxon's Gundogs and Field Trials book for more info. Moxon was considered quite revolutionary in his day - he took a lot of the harshness and cruelty out of dog training, while still maintaining discipline. His methods are a bit outdated today, but he's worth reading to see where all this came from.

never had to resort to using a shock collar... But they were not subjected to cruel methods of training either.

Did you watch the video links I posted above showing the proper use of an e-collar? Do you still think it constitutes cruelty? Did you see any animal abuse in those videos? Compared to leash pops with a choke chain? Because I don't know what more I can say to convince you that it's not the torture and abuse that you seem to think it is. It's not punishment - it's simply a matter of motivation and discipline.

I'm not the Big Bad either. I love my dog - I've been accused of loving him too much for his own good and letting him get away with murder. I would never let any harm come to him, and I would never treat him cruelly. My dog also loves me. He is not in any way afraid of me. He is lively, friendly, happy and confident. His spirit is not broken, he's not cowed or depressed in any way. But he is extremely well behaved, and he knows where his boundaries are. He still tests me sometimes, but he knows he can't take the p!ss.

I think we all need to keep an open mind and understand that we don't have all the answers. Everybody seems to jump at judgement before they educate themselves as to the facts.