What is the status of Metro North?

Metrobest

I have not heard any news on metro north in some months? I think An Board Pleaneala are delaying the thing for no reason but to keep itself in a job. Should An Bord Pleanala be snipped in the next budget?

As Joan Burton points out, Metro north will cost only 200million euro per year and will generate 25,000 jobs at a time when ireland needs to have skilled people in employment, not the dole.

Joan Burton should be Ireland's next tanaiste.

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=1087

Victor

ABP are waiting on information from the RPA.

DWCommuter

Metrobest, this short video should help you understand things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUi2gDQIURA&feature=related

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

I have not heard any news on metro north in some months? I think An Board Pleaneala are delaying the thing for no reason but to keep itself in a job. Should An Bord Pleanala be snipped in the next budget?

As Joan Burton points out, Metro north will cost only 200million euro per year and will generate 25,000 jobs at a time when ireland needs to have skilled people in employment, not the dole.

Joan Burton should be Ireland's next tanaiste.

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=1087

I have read the article. She doesn't say it will generate 25,000 jobs, she says "This could mean up to 25,000 new jobs" with no explaination as to how these jobs would come about.

I would view the Dublin Port Tunnel as an infrastructure project of somewhat similar scale as Metro North and I don't recall it creating 25,000 jobs.

Given that the economy is somewhat bust we'd be better of spending the money on busses for Swords and investing the money in trying to get create real sustainable jobs. They can take the bus in the meantime.

Certainly anybody would be a better Tanaiste then that absolute fool that we have at the moment.

For the record, An Bord Pleanala are performing an absolute VITAL role in this country. We need it here because unlike, say Germany, we have planning anarchy that's dictated by the likes of council who are only interested in short term and not the longterm.

One would imagine that Metro North would go through a lengthy planning process. I can't see why it wouldn't.

dermo88

Sorry Brian D, but theres a small problem here:

They can take the bus in the meantime.

Thats the same kind of attitude the people of Tallaght were given by CIE in the 1980's after the last economic bust. Also, the Labour party LOVE buses. Why have one driver, carrying 800 people at once, when you can have 10 carrying 80 at once. Its more votes, more power, and more ability to blackmail. Not to mention the ability to play silly games with any ruling coalition, have a strike, and then go down the pub and sing "We'll keep the Red Flag flying", all in the name of justice.

I see no reason why Ballymun and Swords now deserve the same treatment, considering that they were promised Luas by Michael Lowry, Gordon, George, Bungle and Zippy back in 1996. When do they actually get a proper service?

I do have misgivings on Metro North, as in, for example, how come it costs more than other comparable projects in Europe?

The likes of this is needed, because it actually works on reducing the worst effects of a real estate bust, and the government will get it back in taxes as a result. The last real estate bust in Ireland was from 1981 to 1990. The difference then was we were able to go and print money and get out of trouble. Now....we don't have that facility.

Metrobest

BrianD wrote: »

I have read the article. She doesn't say it will generate 25,000 jobs, she says "This could mean up to 25,000 new jobs" with no explaination as to how these jobs would come about.

I would view the Dublin Port Tunnel as an infrastructure project of somewhat similar scale as Metro North and I don't recall it creating 25,000 jobs.

Given that the economy is somewhat bust we'd be better of spending the money on busses for Swords and investing the money in trying to get create real sustainable jobs. They can take the bus in the meantime.

Certainly anybody would be a better Tanaiste then that absolute fool that we have at the moment.

For the record, An Bord Pleanala are performing an absolute VITAL role in this country. We need it here because unlike, say Germany, we have planning anarchy that's dictated by the likes of council who are only interested in short term and not the longterm.

One would imagine that Metro North would go through a lengthy planning process. I can't see why it wouldn't.

Metro North is a far more complex project than the port tunnel, requiring a greater mix of skills than a simple road tunnel.

Of course there is an indirect jobs spin-off from the people directly employed in the project. The cafe serving the sandwiches and the breakfast rolls, the car dealers, the companies supplying the raw materials, etc etc

Ireland seems to have one of the world's most stringent planning processes when it comes to metro stations. Things move a lot faster in other places. Sydney announced this year it is going to build a metro. The diggers will move in next year.

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote: »

I do have misgivings on Metro North, as in, for example, how come it costs more than other comparable projects in Europe?
.

I wouldn't say it always costs more. Amsterdam's metro has risen to 3.7billion but that's because of problems tunneling under the sandy foundations on which the city is built. Dublin's conditions are more tunnel friendly.

It seems to cost more in Ireland for two reasons. First, excrutiatingly long and bureaucratic quangos (like Bord Pleneala) are allowed to delay projects. Second, it's because of Ireland's wage structure - the costs of doing anything in Ireland are higher than the EU average.

Still, now is the time to lock in the lower wage costs, and stimulate the economy to prepare for the mild recovery that will happen in early 2010. The economy will start to grow strongly again in 2011 and it's essential that the intrastructure is there to sustain that growth.

godtabh

Metrobest wrote: »

Metro North is a far more complex project than the port tunnel, requiring a greater mix of skills than a simple road tunnel.

Of course there is an indirect jobs spin-off from the people directly employed in the project. The cafe serving the sandwiches and the breakfast rolls, the car dealers, the companies supplying the raw materials, etc etc

Ireland seems to have one of the world's most stringent planning processes when it comes to metro stations. Things move a lot faster in other places. Sydney announced this year it is going to build a metro. The diggers will move in next year.

Its a strategic infrastructure project so its a different than your run of the mill planning application that's why ABP are involved and not councils.

The bidders are down to 2. There is a lot of additional information been requested by the board but the additional costs need to be sorted

AlekSmart

The economy will start to grow strongly again in 2011 and it's essential that the intrastructure is there to sustain that growth.

Perhaps the mods could make this prediction a sticky....???? Just for future reference.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

Metro North is a far more complex project than the port tunnel, requiring a greater mix of skills than a simple road tunnel.

Metro North is a Luas line. By the looks of it large sections of it will be above ground. No more complicated than the existing builds and the tunnelling is unlikely to be anymore complex thant the DPT with the exception of the city centre where it will be more of an logistical then technical challenge.

[/quote]Of course there is an indirect jobs spin-off from the people directly employed in the project. The cafe serving the sandwiches and the breakfast rolls, the car dealers, the companies supplying the raw materials, etc etc[/quote]

These are jobs but not skilled jobs.

Ireland seems to have one of the world's most stringent planning processes when it comes to metro stations. Things move a lot faster in other places. Sydney announced this year it is going to build a metro. The diggers will move in next year.

Sydney has had underground rail for years. Planning is not holding up the process it's money. Also the RPA seem to go through a lengthy consultation process. If we had elected representatives with the national interest at heart rather than keeping an eye on votes for the next election we wouldn't have this problem. The parliament could vote to put in a metro as it so wishes but politicians don't have the balls to do in case their constituents don't like it. One of the joys of PR system where all politics are far too local.

Re taking the bus. I think Swords should have a rail line to the city. But in the meantime an investment in buses and bus infrastructure would be a fraction of the €200m discussed and deliver immediate an solution with capacity.

L1011

BrianD wrote: »

Planning is not holding up the process it's money

Right now, its ABP who are holding it up. I categorise them as planning rather than financial!

MiniD

BrianD wrote: »

Given that the economy is somewhat bust we'd be better of spending the money on busses for Swords and investing the money in trying to get create real sustainable jobs. They can take the bus in the meantime.

We did that already. We bought 100 buses in 2006 and a large chunk of those were assigned for Swords with new route 141. Despite Swords being identified as an area in need of more buses, The Department Of Transport refused permission for Dublin Bus to launch this route because it competed with the Swords Express (despite it taking a different routing and it wasn't an express). The buses were used elsewhere in the city.

http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0637/D.0637.200706270032.html

BrianD

MYOB wrote: »

Right now, its ABP who are holding it up. I categorise them as planning rather than financial!

I don't believe that the planning process is unduely holding up this project. It's not something that would be a 2 week job. If the government wanted this project to go they should have expressed it through as strategic infrastructure

If you take a look at the Sydney Metro web site you'll find that their government have designated the project a strategic project but are still allowing one year for the planning process from submission through to award.. I am guessing that because the project is strategic they can continue with the process of awarding contracts and so on so forth with confidence.

Have a read here: http://www.sydneymetro.nsw.gov.au/how/planning_and_assessment/

Read the first line. They mean business. You just don't see that level of intent here. So it's no wonder that the whole planning process can be held up by land owners, anybody who cares to and politicians looking for votes. Who said the process wasn't democratic.

But what about our own politicians? Well clearly o members of FG dont see the 25,000 jobs that Joan Burton see. This fella, Paschal Donohoe, is more concerned about prolonging the project by limiting the working hours of the builders. No doubt his hard work will win him a few votes in the election and help get out of the doghouse (Senate) and into the dail. He's also got a few councillors on board as well.

One hopes that the RPA have covered what these FG-ers are raising as it relates to noise levels and monitoring during construction (obviously stemming from probelms that arose during the DPT build). If they haven't and then it is raised at planning then you can hardly blame ABP for delays.

The next date that ABP have for Metro North seems to be Otober 1st - almost a year since the RPA put in their application. This is roughly in line with the planning process down under.

Anyway it's not all fun and games down in Sydney either. There are calls from residents one part of the city to oppose one metro line as it too expensive, serves areas already served and they are getting nothing Have a read here

Metrobest

What needs to be known is that An Bord Pleaneala's oral hearing is being held "at the board's discretion" - ABP has provided no justification for this hearing. Why is this unelected quango being allowed to needlessly delay a piece of critical national infrastructure? ABP should stick to its remit: housing and development. Projects like a metro are in a league of their own and ABP has no expertise in these matters. A conspiracy theorist might speculate that the government has ordered ABP to procrastinate until the worst of the recession is over.

Whatever the reasoning behind ABP's choice to hold a hearing (and then delay it further by onerous requests for more information), one thing is clear. After years of pre-planning, an environmental impact statement and a thorough round of consulation, during which locals' needs were taken into account (eg. tunnel in Ballymun), it's beyond belief that ABP has delayed this project by up to one year and is costing the taxpayer tens of millions of euros to boot during a time of recession and unemployment which metro north could have helped alter. The decision should have gone straight to the planning minister as a piece of critical infrastructure. Whether or not the planning minister has the strategic wit to know that this project is vital to Ireland's economic future is another matter.

In the Sydney case, the project came out of nowhere to be honest, I heard nothing of it when I was living in Sydney. But the Australians are good at cutting through red tape and getting things done. Sometimes they make mistakes. Personally I have my doubts about the CBD metro; it seems like a white elephant like the monorail they built for the Olympics.

Why doesn't An Bord Pleanala emigrate down under and spread some of its poison down there? There's plenty of bad planning in Australia it could delay indefinately!

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

What needs to be known is that An Bord Pleaneala's oral hearing is being held "at the board's discretion" - ABP has provided no justification for this hearing. Why is this unelected quango being allowed to needlessly delay a piece of critical national infrastructure? ABP should stick to its remit: housing and development. Projects like a metro are in a league of their own and ABP has no expertise in these matters. A conspiracy theorist might speculate that the government has ordered ABP to procrastinate until the worst of the recession is over.

When will people quit the BS about calling ABP an unelected quango. They have a crucial job to do on behalf of the people of Ireland. They are there by statute that was put in place by our democratically elected government. There are many facets of government that are not elected and they are there for the orderly running of the country. Why single out ABP? The judiciary aren't elected either. Try calling them an unelected quango.


Metrobest, time to face up to the facts:

Metro North is within ABPs remit. We the people made it so through the democratic process.

An Bord Pleanála is an independent statutory administrative tribunal that decides on appeals from planning decisions made by local authorities in the Republic of Ireland. As of 2007 The Planning Board directly decides major strategic infrastructural projects under the provisions of the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act 2006. The Board also hears applications from local authorities for projects which would have a significant environmental impact. The Board was established by the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act 1976, provisions which have, for the most part, been carried over into the Planning and Development Act 2000. Have a look at who makes up the board of ABP (I lifted that of Wiki). It's not some sort of quango that appeared. WE PUT IT THERE for the betterment of planning and development.

Have a look at who makes up the board of ABP. They are all qualified individuals to do the job and assisted by an executive. They ABP hires in outside expertese when require and did so for the Metro North hearing.

Whatever the reasoning behind ABP's choice to hold a hearing (and then delay it further by onerous requests for more information), one thing is clear. After years of pre-planning, an environmental impact statement and a thorough round of consulation, during which locals' needs were taken into account (eg. tunnel in Ballymun), it's beyond belief that ABP has delayed this project by up to one year and is costing the taxpayer tens of millions of euros to boot during a time of recession and unemployment which metro north could have helped alter. The decision should have gone straight to the planning minister as a piece of critical infrastructure. Whether or not the planning minister has the strategic wit to know that this project is vital to Ireland's economic future is another matter.

Eh, where did you get this? If you recall the RPA spent years proposing the white elephant to the airport. Then changed it's mind to go to Swords.

In fact they've spent years messing around with this project without getting very far. They started back in 2001 and wasn't till '05 into '06 that they had route selections. Only in 2007 did they have public consultations and the order application was made in Sept '08.

The Sydney Metro is going through EXACTLY the same type of process through a smilar board with an oral hearing.

ABP's public hearing took place back in April in Croke Park. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0302/metro.html

This was suspended due to further information being requested by ABP. The unaswered questions are why didn't ABP ask for this info earlier in the process OR why didn't the RPA provide it in the first place. it is IMPERATIVE that due process is adhered to as this is a critical piece of infratructure that we are about to sink into the ground. There is no place for hindsight in 10 years time.

Some people say that the further information request will delay the process by 6 months but I doubt if anybody in any country would anticipate the planning process going like clockwork.

So we're potentially down 6 months in the project. But given the RPA don't know how much it will cost to build they probably don't know how long either!

If you read the RTE article, there were 179 submissions to ABP regarding Metro North. Would you prefer if this element of democracy was eliminated? All of these submissions impact on the length of time it takes for the planning process to proceed.

What is missing here is a determined statement by local or national government to state that this is a project that we ARE building. They are quite happy to palm it off to the RPA and it's not really their issue anymore. Lack of gumption. No where do you see conviction by our democratically elected government to get this one going. They know that voters will be pissed off and irate when the build starts. Breaking eggs and all that.

In the Sydney case, the project came out of nowhere to be honest, I heard nothing of it when I was living in Sydney. But the Australians are good at cutting through red tape and getting things done. Sometimes they make mistakes. Personally I have my doubts about the CBD metro; it seems like a white elephant like the monorail they built for the Olympics.

I don't recall the monorail being built for the Olympics but they did build an underground to the Airport for the 2000 games and charged an arm and a leg to use it ($15 to city or $5 to go between terminals). Needless to say it wasn't a popular line with the locals who prefer to drive or bus it.

At this time Metro North is a year into the planning process. The same length of time factored in by Sydney Metro - the shining example you give. Even down there they are aware that delays are possible.

Dig a bit deeper into the proposals in Sydney and you'll find that some of the proposals are over 10 years old and unrealised. Like Ireland, all the road projects within the time frame have been built.

You probably didn't hear about the metro as its been so long on the table and no longer news. Proposed 1998, supposed to built by 2010, got revised in 2006 as nothing was built and completion date of 2015-17. Then they decided to cancel part of it in 2008 and go with a different plan. Read it up about it - plenty of references to "indefinitely shelved" and "cancelled". Also references to "too long", "too expensive", "inappropriate to the population density" and then nobody is too sure as to whether they run the frequency of service afterall.

No wonder they don't have planning problems ... they never get that far!! The Sydney Metro has changed almost every year for 10 years. They make the RPA actually look quite proficient.

Though you have to commend them for setting up a Metro Authority and the fact that they are using the same guage as the rest of the rail system. There's a smart idea. Not like the stupidity we have here.

Why doesn't An Bord Pleanala emigrate down under and spread some of its poison down there? There's plenty of bad planning in Australia it could delay indefinately!

NSW has it's own version. All I can say that ABP is the best thing in the planning system that we have here. Long may it last.

godtabh

Metrobest wrote: »

What needs to be known is that An Bord Pleaneala's oral hearing is being held "at the board's discretion" - ABP has provided no justification for this hearing. Why is this unelected quango being allowed to needlessly delay a piece of critical national infrastructure? ABP should stick to its remit: housing and development. Projects like a metro are in a league of their own and ABP has no expertise in these matters. A conspiracy theorist might speculate that the government has ordered ABP to procrastinate until the worst of the recession is over.

Whatever the reasoning behind ABP's choice to hold a hearing (and then delay it further by onerous requests for more information), one thing is clear. After years of pre-planning, an environmental impact statement and a thorough round of consulation, during which locals' needs were taken into account (eg. tunnel in Ballymun), it's beyond belief that ABP has delayed this project by up to one year and is costing the taxpayer tens of millions of euros to boot during a time of recession and unemployment which metro north could have helped alter. The decision should have gone straight to the planning minister as a piece of critical infrastructure. Whether or not the planning minister has the strategic wit to know that this project is vital to Ireland's economic future is another matter.

In the Sydney case, the project came out of nowhere to be honest, I heard nothing of it when I was living in Sydney. But the Australians are good at cutting through red tape and getting things done. Sometimes they make mistakes. Personally I have my doubts about the CBD metro; it seems like a white elephant like the monorail they built for the Olympics.

Why doesn't An Bord Pleanala emigrate down under and spread some of its poison down there? There's plenty of bad planning in Australia it could delay indefinately!

Have you even looked at ABP website

It amazes me when people talk utter bull**** as if fact

BrianD wrote: »

Metro North is a Luas line. By the looks of it large sections of it will be above ground. No more complicated than the existing builds and the tunnelling is unlikely to be anymore complex thant the DPT with the exception of the city centre where it will be more of an logistical then technical challenge.

Tunnelling through the city under the liffey is a lot more complex than the port tunnel. Just look at some of the buildings that it well go under

Traffic managment will be more complex.

etc

The job is a lot more complex than the port tunnel.

Metrobest

kearnsr wrote: »

Have you even looked at ABP website

It amazes me when people talk utter bull**** as if fact
.

Wrong. What amazes is when people post angry knee-jerk reactions without thinking them through.

Are you disputing that ABP is unelected? Or that is has decided to hold up metro north by making the most onerous requests? That it has absolutely no expertise in underground rail projects. And that the oral hearing, which is costing millions of euros and delaying a piece of critical national infrasructure is being held at the board's discretion

The metro north application was first lodged on 28/03/2007. source - ABP http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/NC0003.htm

Metrobest

BrianD wrote: »

Metro North is within ABPs remit. We the people made it so through the democratic process....

Have a look at who makes up the board of ABP. They are all qualified individuals to do the job and assisted by an executive. They ABP hires in outside expertese when require and did so for the Metro North hearing.

But not qualified to adjudicate on underground rail projects...
Who pays for this outside expertise? Hasn't the RPA already tapped into all this expertise? And isn't the RPA the state agency specifically set up to procure new rail projects?

Why is one state agency delaying the project of another state agency, one the decision on the project is ultimately to be made by the planning minister?

Make no mistake. What An Board Pleanala is doing with metro north is not normal by any international standard.

The normal situation is that agency in charge (RPA) plans the project and the relevent government minister ultimately decides whether or not the project gets approved.

This isn't some housing estate or office development - this is a piece of strategic national infrastructure. While it might be convenient for government that ABP has delayed the day when the final green light must be given, the bigger issue is that the Irish taxpayer is being forced to fork out extra tens of millions for all this nonsense.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

But not qualified to adjudicate on underground rail projects...

Says who? Just you. they don't have a metro in Sydney yet they are able to have a planning process. Of course they are qualified to do it. And as already stated they have bolstered their expertese by bringing in third party experts.

Who pays for this outside expertise? Hasn't the RPA already tapped into all this expertise? And isn't the RPA the state agency specifically set up to procure new rail projects?

You hit the nail on the head - procure rail projects. This is a planning and environmental process - a completely different processwhich the RPA have no expertese to ajudicate it. In theory, the RPA could decide the best route to Swords is on the surface and by levelling every house en route etc. etc.

Why is one state agency delaying the project of another state agency, one the decision on the project is ultimately to be made by the planning minister?

They are not unduely delaying the process. As I said, this process needs to be thorough and we don't want to be looking back in 20 years time and say "why on earth did we do that?" Anyway, at this point in time it is uncertain whether ABP have stuffed it up or if the RPA submitted a dud application.

Make no mistake. What An Board Pleanala is doing with metro north is not normal by any international standard.

They seem to be doing things by the international norm (well with the exception of China). It's exactly the same process as in Australia. You seem to suggest that we shouldn't be following these norms?

The normal situation is that agency in charge (RPA) plans the project and the relevent government minister ultimately decides whether or not the project gets approved.

Thsi is not the normal situation. Every piece of infrastructure in most countries goes through the same process. Government makes it policy to build, state agencies (or private sector) plan and build it and then a planning body assesses the plans (including environmental issues) and gives the nod. This happens in most coutries. There are some countries that just go ahead and build but then again these are the type of countries where citizens often disappear overnight.

This isn't some housing estate or office development - this is a piece of strategic national infrastructure. While it might be convenient for government that ABP has delayed the day when the final green light must be given, the bigger issue is that the Irish taxpayer is being forced to fork out extra tens of millions for all this nonsense.

I can only draw the conclusion that you have no idea how infrastructure is planned and built in most countries. Why do you think that the process in Ireland should be different to other countries??? You seem to be conveniently ignoring this fact. You held up the Sydney metro as shining example yet the have the same planning process in Ireland - one agency designs, submits plans to planning authority, awaits results and then constructs. Not only that, they expect the kind of planning delays that can happen. Leaving aside the fact their transport planning seems to be almost farcical.

The Irish taxpayer is not being forced to fork out tens of millions. Where is the evidence to support this?

Also Metrobest you have got to stop this "unelected" nonsense about ABP. Read my post and understand how they are appointed and what legal instruments and statutes underpin the process. Perhaps you can remind me when I voted in the current board of the RPA and the dozens of other agencies that are used to run our society? You do yourself no favours with this approach.

BluntGuy

I think it is excellent to see ABP pushing for thorough details, but I can understand the frustration at the delay.

I suppose the fact it comes at what one may argue as being a "convenient" time for a government without any cash to dish out for this project doesn't exactly help matters.

davebuck

I was surprised by the delay as any time I went to an RPA presentation on Metro North the one thing I kept hearing was the RPA were talking with ABP all the time about the project details etc so who is holding up the project RPA or ABP?

It has being stopped since last April 6 months ago it does seem a long time for information to be passed over to ABP.

crocro

I doubt a multi-billion euro contract for an infrastructure project like this will be signed off while we are cap in hand to the ECB. Even if we managed to get a PPP funded for MN or IC, with no upfront capital costs, the government may decide that it would look bad to our creditors.

On the bright side we will have our 25bn euro 1,000 km motorway network that has enabled many commuter housing estates and retail parks to get planning permission. Most importantly we have the vital first leg of the western rail corridor, the engine of growth in the west. The Cork Dublin train goes slower than it used to but at least it has a new costume and a 'clockface timetable'.

The current government is unlikely to make it through the next 3 months and Enda Kenny has publicly stated tthat he is in favour of shelving the metro.

The priority is to keep borrowing 20bn a year to pay welfare and wages so all capital projects will probably be cancelled or delayed indefinitely.

Run_to_da_hills

crocro wrote: »

The current government is unlikely to make it through the next 3 months and Enda Kenny has publicly stated tthat he is in favour of shelving the metro.

The current government is unlikely to make it through the next 3 months Month pending on fridays result.

crocro

The market disagrees with you. you can get 16/1 on a No to Lisbon vote on Betfair. If you're sure your right you could make a few quid.

NAMA & the budget will be harder to get past

jiggajt

I tendered to project manage the site investigations for the metro north contract with another company last december. Back then i was told that if the contract was awarded that the site investigations would start in Jan 2010. Since then there has been at least a 3 month delay due to ABP.

I didnt get the job but i would speculate that the SI will begin in Summer 2010. It will take approximately 18 month to complete the SI. This will be followed by at least 12 months of design based on the SI data. If all this goes according to plan i would expect the underground works to begin in early 2013 followed closely by the overground sections.

I reckon we'll be rolling out to the airport on the metro by 2018 that is assuming it goes ahead at all now!

dan_d

The first line of the sydney metro website says it all.
We do not class infrastructure as "critical infrastructure, which means it is considered to be essential to the State for economic, social or environmental reasons.". We think it might be handy to have, we put in as part of an overall development plan. We then come up with plans, consult the public on it, dicuss it into the ground, argue with landowners over how much money they should be given, go through all the claims from people who don't want tunnelling/works under their houses (but DO want the benefit of the finished product), go through an bord pleanala, who may or may not approve it, then tender, narrow it down, appoint a company, and a year after the appointment, tie down the details and get going.

I'm being harsh, I realise. However any other country in the world that decides it's city infrastructure needs upgrading just does it.Madrid put in a new metro tunnel recently enough. They just tunnelled and did the job. They didn't talk about it for 3 years, before moving on anything.It was necessary, so it got done. The UK is in a recession too....they consider their infrastructure important, so they are upgrading their rail systems. Creates jobs, gives them a good system...we are fundamentally backwards when it comes to this stuff. We've barely got a system, let alone an upgraded one. Dublin may not be big, but it still doesn't have the basics. Massive areas are left without any connections other than roads. And then we wonder why we have traffic problems.

Harsh reality.

Metrobest

davebuck wrote: »

I was surprised by the delay as any time I went to an RPA presentation on Metro North the one thing I kept hearing was the RPA were talking with ABP all the time about the project details etc so who is holding up the project RPA or ABP?

It has being stopped since last April 6 months ago it does seem a long time for information to be passed over to ABP.

ABP is holding the project up "at its dircretion". When ABP will eventually get around to making a decision is as easy to guess as the length of a wound-up piece of string.

I can only draw the conclusion that you have no idea how infrastructure is planned and built in most countries.

How can you draw that conclusion? You don't seem to know much about planning yourself.

I repeat, in no other country does this [metro north scenario] happen. I defy anyone to tell me an example of where one state institution planning a strategic metro project has been held up by up to one year at the discretion of another state institution, in a process where the ultimate decision must anyway be taken by a state ministry.

The reason Ireland passed a strategic infrastructure bill was precisely to avoid this kind of paralysis by analysis.

BrianD

Metrobest wrote: »

ABP is holding the project up "at its dircretion". When ABP will eventually get around to making a decision is as easy to guess as the length of a wound-up piece of string.

You are simply making this stuff up now. Please stop!

How can you draw that conclusion? You don't seem to know much about planning yourself.

With respect, you are showing breathless ignorance of the strategic planning procedures both at home and abroad.

I repeat, in no other country does this [metro north scenario] happen. I defy anyone to tell me an example of where one state institution planning a strategic metro project has been held up by up to one year at the discretion of another state institution, in a process where the ultimate decision must anyway be taken by a state ministry.

Try every civilised country, perhaps? But to give you one example - the one you quoted - The Sydney Metro.

The reason Ireland passed a strategic infrastructure bill was precisely to avoid this kind of paralysis by analysis.

Where's the paralysis by analysis? The bills objective was to simplify the process by putting strategic project planning decisions into the hands of ABP. Here's what it does:

... to provide, in the interests of the common good, for the making directly to An Bord Pleanála of applications for planning permission in respect of certain proposed developments of strategic importance to the State; to make provision for the expeditious determination of such applications, applications for certain other types of consent or approval and applications for planning permissions generally; for those purposes and for the purpose of effecting certain other changes to the law of planning and development to amend and extend the Planning and Development Acts 2000 to 2004; to amend the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2001 and the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act 1919 and to provide for related matters

So instead of leaving major projects in the hands (and mercy) of local councils it all goes to ABP. Metro North would have involved two councils and probably the Dublin Airport authority as well.


So Ireland is no different to australia or most other countries in this respect. You have provided no evidence to support your assertation that ABP has held up Metro North. The only fact of the matter is that ABP have requested further information. This is due process and they are absolutely right to do so. As a taxpayer, I would expect nothing less. If the RPA haven't provided the documentation well then we know who is reponsible for the delays.

Back down under ...

"A project that is declared critical infrastructure is still subject to a full and thorough environmental assessment by the Director-General of the Department of Planning with particular emphasis given to ensuring the proposal goes ahead in an environmentally appropriate and sustainable manner. The process for assessment is the same as any other major project."


If you read up a little you'll find that the process is almost identical to Ireland and they allow one year for it in their time lines.

ABP do have the discretion to hold a public hearing and they are right to do so. It's in everyones interest. There is no way that you can push through a project like this without maximum public consulation and transparency at all stages. This public engagement can help to reduce potential objections.

ABP held their public hearing in April, 7 months after receiving the original application from the RPA. We are now 12 months after application and looking at a 3-6 month deviation from a 12 month process. No big deal and this time can easily be clawed back over the construction timeline.

ABP don't really care if the Government has the money to build or not. They can still grant permission for a project even if it ends up bein shelved.

Metrobest

BrianD wrote: »

If you read up a little you'll find that the process is almost identical to Ireland and they allow one year for it in their time lines.

ABP do have the discretion to hold a public hearing and they are right to do so. It's in everyones interest. There is no way that you can push through a project like this without maximum public consulation and transparency at all stages. This public engagement can help to reduce potential objections.

ABP held their public hearing in April, 7 months after receiving the original application from the RPA. We are now 12 months after application and looking at a 3-6 month deviation from a 12 month process. No big deal and this time can easily be clawed back over the construction timeline.

ABP don't really care if the Government has the money to build or not. They can still grant permission for a project even if it ends up bein shelved.

Crucially, there is no An Board Pleaneala-type institution getting in the way of Sydney Metro and the planning ministry.

It took An Board Pleaneala 7 months to hold a hearing. The hearing ran till Summer. Then it was adjourned. Then ABP asked the RPA for copious amounts of information. How long will it take ABP to make a final decision after the RPA submits this information?

What if ABP then refuses permission to build the metro? Do you think that is democracy in action? An unelected quango refusing a piece of critical social and economic infrastructure long promised to the people of Ireland.

And even if ABP does eventually green-light the metro, there is another hurdle awaiting. It's the minister who has the final say.

Something very odd is happening with ABP's involvement in metro north that just doesn't happen in other metro projects.

I don't know why or how you can defend ABP's actions. You say it's about accountability and consultation. Didn't the RPA already hold dozen of consultation days. In fact, the route was adjusted because of concerns of residents in Ballymun. The whole process could not have been more consultative.

That's what makes it all the more bizarre that ABP has taken upon itself to hold another inquiry into a project that has already been inquired into, consulted on, thoroughly planned and debated.

Where was ABP when unsustainable housing estates were mushrooming all over Ireland during the tiger era? Why weren't they doing more to stop that? Rather than weigh in behind sustainable planing (eg. metro north and Sean Dunne's plan for Ballsbridge) ABP actively seeks to prevent it. But when it comes to all the terrible planning that has blighted Ireland over the last decade, ABP has been eerily silent.

Despite only being launched this year, Sydney's metro will probably be up and running before Dublin's. In Sydney, more power is concentrated in the hands of the planners - they can present solutions as a fait accompli instead of having to allow every Tom, Dick or Harry to have his say.

And luckily for them, they don't have to deal with ABP.

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

I repeat, in no other country does this [metro north scenario] happen. I defy anyone to tell me an example of where one state institution planning a strategic metro project has been held up by up to one year at the discretion of another state institution, in a process where the ultimate decision must anyway be taken by a state ministry.

Just reading some of the Railway magazines I have noted that public inquiries into railways in the UK are adjourned from time to time.

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/NC0003.htm

NC0003: ()

Dublin City Council

Proposed new railway Metro North connecting St. Stephen's Green with Dublin Airport and Swords, Co. Dublin.

Case reference: PL29S.NC0003
Case type: Railway Ord. - Consultation
Decision: Is a Strat. Infrast. Dev.

Date Signed: 08/09/2008
Parties
* Railway Procurement Agency (Prosp. Applicant)
* Dublin City Council (Local Authority) (Active)

History
* 08/09/2008: Is a Strat. Infrast. Dev.
* 28/03/2007: Lodged

Note the underlined bits. The 2007-2008 exercise was a pre-application consultation with a prospective applicant

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

Just reading some of the Railway magazines I have noted that public inquiries into railways in the UK are adjourned from time to time.

If you've noted it, would you please name the city where one state agency planning a strategic infrastructure metro project was delayed for months on end by another state agency, when ultimately the decision rested with a third state agency (the planning ministry).

Although, let's face it, whether or not there is such an example, and I still haven't seen it, - the UK is hardly an example Ireland should be looking to when it comes to good planning.

Ireland's has said a resounding yes to Europe. Now it's time for Ireland to say NO to An Board Pleaneala's interference in the national strategic infrastructure process.

VanBosch

Does any one know if the RPA provided the requested infor by 1st October?

dereko1969

Yes see here

On 1st October 2009, RPA submitted further information in relation to the Railway Order application which had been requested by An Bord Pleanála.

From here

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_airport_swords/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/MetroNorthRailwayOrderOralHearingEvidence.aspx

dereko1969

Metrobest wrote: »

Ireland's has said a resounding yes to Europe. Now it's time for Ireland to say NO to An Board Pleaneala's interference in the national strategic infrastructure process.

Will you please stop making a show of yourself with your lack of knowledge? ABP have been tasked by the legislature to specifically examine strategic infrastructure!

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

If you've noted it, would you please name the city where one state agency planning a strategic infrastructure metro project was delayed for months on end by another state agency, when ultimately the decision rested with a third state agency (the planning ministry).

I don't recollect the project but it could have been the Nottingham tram extension. Persumably NET applied for permission, an inquiry is held and eventually a recommendation is made to the minister by the inspector.

Here, the RPA applied for permission, an inquiry is held and eventually a recommendation is made to the board of ABP by the inspector. That the inspector works for ABP and is familiar with ABP procedures and has gone through similar things with them before is probably better than setting up ad-hoc inquiries.

Metrobest

dereko1969 wrote: »

Will you please stop making a show of yourself with your lack of knowledge? ABP have been tasked by the legislature to specifically examine strategic infrastructure!

Get this between your ears. ABP is holding an inqury into metro north at its disrection. There is nothing in the legislation that states this hearing is neccessary. The legislature enacted a strategic infrastructure bill to speed up critical infrastructure bills through the planning process.

Thanks to ABP, metro north is now delayed by at least one year.

This is not normal practice in planning of metro projects. Nobody has been able to come up with a convincing example similar to this

Why am I "making a show of myself" by pointing out this fact?

You have that typical Irish attitude. First you ridicule anyone who disagrees with your world view. The you stick your head in the sand when the facts point otherwise.

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

ABP is holding an inqury into metro north at its disrection.

Indeed, I understand the holding of any oral hearing is at the discretion of ABP - whether its house extension or the biggest project in the country. That doesn't mean thigns aren't going on in the background.

Do you think it would be democratic to not let the residents have their voices heard? Not everyone can hire a fancy engineer and a barrister to do formal reports to present their case.

spacetweek

Glad to hear the info was submitted to ABP.

Realistically, when can we expect a decision now?

As for a start date, I realise that we're going to have to wait for the December budget before we know for certain whether MN is ruled in or out.

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

Do you think it would be democratic to not let the residents have their voices heard?

Do you think it democratic that a group of local NIMBYs can hold up a major infrastructure project?

There was public consultations already held time and time again. Why there has to be a "democratic process" at this point is just making things take longer - this is true of every major Irish infrastructure project.

Victor

paulm17781 wrote: »

There was public consultations already held time and time again.

Which, I humbly submit, only presented a tiny amount of information. In August 2008 there were perhaps 20-30 drawings. In September 2008 there were 300 drawings and 3,000 A4 pages.

paulm17781

Victor wrote: »

Which, I humbly submit, only presented a tiny amount of information. In August 2008 there were perhaps 20-30 drawings. In September 2008 there were 300 drawings and 3,000 A4 pages.

How much of the detail will matter to the NIMBYs?

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

Do you think it would be democratic to not let the residents have their voices heard? Not everyone can hire a fancy engineer and a barrister to do formal reports to present their case.

Democracy ultimately means a course of action in the interest of the greater good, after taking into account all points of view. Local residents' voices were heard at public consultations which were widely publicized. In Ballymun local grassroots groups succeeded in having the line put underground.

Quite why ABP took it upon itself to hold this totally unneccesary hearing is something the board should explain to the public. Speaking of which, the unelected yet extremely powerful board is hardly a shining example of democracy, is it?

Victor

Metrobest, what is the huff about? Its almost sulk like.

paulm17781 wrote: »

How much of the detail will matter to the NIMBYs?

The residents of Swords weren't told whether MN was going to be at ground level or elevated until the application, despite the RPA having a vertical alignment designed at least 18 months beforehand.

Lets look at the Interconnector - how much of the vertical alignment is in the publin domain at this stage? A short section at Inchicore, nothing about the city centre or East Wall yet.

dereko1969

Metrobest, while you may persist with your 'discretionary' oral hearing into Metro North line, try and think of it logically, if you were the inspector involved or the Board of ABP would you decide to have the largest ever infrastructure project in the history of the State decided upon without an oral hearing? would that not lead to endless judicial reviews/injunctions etc from all those that would be likely to want to make submissions to the oral hearing? i just can't see how this discretionary power is actually discretionary in a case like this.

Metrobest

dereko1969 wrote: »

i just can't see how this discretionary power is actually discretionary in a case like this.

Eh, because it´s disretionary? You need to consult a dictionary, dude.

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

Lets look at the Interconnector - .

That project hasn´t a snowball´s chance in hell of being built before 2020 especially when we factor in the inevitable ABP delays that will occur.

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

Eh, because it´s disretionary? You need to consult a dictionary, dude.

Perhaps you should look at when discretionary powers are used. They tend to be used when the authority with the discretionary powers feels that using the discretionary powers would be useful and not when such use would be detrimental. ABP has the discretion and they have availed of teh oppurtunity to have an oral hearing. You, Metrobest, do not have that discretion.

You bemoan ABP as undemocratic. Did you prefer the time before ABP when ministers used to decide on planning appeals? With the suggestion that brown envelopes were passed around liberally.

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

Perhaps you should look at when discretionary powers are used. They tend to be used when the authority with the discretionary powers feels that using the discretionary powers would be useful and not when such use would be detrimental. ABP has the discretion and they have availed of teh oppurtunity to have an oral hearing. You, Metrobest, do not have that discretion.

You bemoan ABP as undemocratic. Did you prefer the time before ABP when ministers used to decide on planning appeals? With the suggestion that brown envelopes were passed around liberally.

Do you work for ABP or something? you are being very defensive of their ´democractic rights´.

ABP is not a democractic body. It´s a quango. I prefer to risk a brown envelope going to a minister who is directly accountable to the public than to the board of a quango, which isn´t.

One of Ireland´s biggest problems is that too much power is in the hands of quangos and vested interests.

Metro North´s decision will ultimately have to be made by the planning ministry which makes ABP´s hearing all the more pointless.

Ultimately everybody want a government that takes firm action and is not afraid to make decisions. Whatever about brown envelopes, people don´t want a government that farms out decision making to unelected quangos.

Victor

Metrobest wrote: »

Do you work for ABP or something?

No.

ABP is not a democractic body. It´s a quango. I prefer to risk a brown envelope going to a minister who is directly accountable to the public than to the board of a quango, which isn´t.

ABP have a consistant approach. Ministers are likely to base decisions on whims. Has there been any accusations of ABP taking bribes?

One of Ireland´s biggest problems is that too much power is in the hands of quangos and vested interests.

Like the RPA?

Metro North´s decision will ultimately have to be made by the planning ministry which makes ABP´s hearing all the more pointless.

Who are these people the "planning ministry"? While the RPA, Department of Transport and government will make the ultimate decision to proceed, it is ABP that will give them the right to proceed.

Whatever about brown envelopes, people don´t want a government that farms out decision making to unelected quangos.

You mean like the judiciary?

Zebra3

Metrobest wrote: »

I prefer to risk a brown envelope going to a minister who is directly accountable to the public than to the board of a quango, which isn´t.

Yes because Ireland's record of the people voting out crooked ministers is top notch.....

dereko1969

Metrobest wrote: »

Metro North´s decision will ultimately have to be made by the planning ministry which makes ABP´s hearing all the more pointless.

Planning Ministry? Now you're just showing your complete ignorance.