ONE SMALL STEP FOR MAN, ONE GIANT LEAP FOR PALESTINE! GRACIAS ESPA A !!

Captain Furball

Spain has expelled a group of Israeli scientists from a state-funded solar energy competition because they are based in occupied areas of the West Bank, it said today.


The decision to expel the team from the Ariel University Centre of Samaria from Solar Decathlon Europe, an international competition involving 20 universities, has provoked angry reactions in Israel. The team was one of 20 finalists in a competition to design solar-powered housing that is part-sponsored by the US energy department.

“All the ministry has done is apply the policy of the European Union,” a housing ministry spokesman said. “The EU does not recognise the occupation of the West Bank, which is where this university is."


So why are they leaving the Israelis build more houses on land that's not theirs?Why not put massive sanctions on Israel? Or is it only Iran are the bad guys?

You see international law only suits them when it is in their own interests.

Nodin

Nice one.

Sand

That'll show em!

Manic Moran

I hope that the Israelis didn't have the winning entry. The Israelis are not known for being technology slouches.

"We have scored a victory for the people of Palestine by removing the Israelis from a competitoin which could help to save the planet..."

NTM

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

That'll show em!

If you've nothing to say.....

Manic Moran wrote:

"We have scored a victory for the people of Palestine by removing the Israelis from a competitoin which could help to save the planet..."!

Or we could take a Werner Von Braun style approach and not worry about where the labour for the rockets comes, or what they're actually for....I'd rather kick the Israelis out meself. Only in times of dire nessecity can this kind of dealing with the devil be excused, and we are far from there yet.

Colonialism is at the root of a great deal of the crap vast sections of humanity have to endure to this day. Turning a blind eye to it is inexcusable in this day and age.

Sand

Nodin:

If you've nothing to say.....

Nodin less than 2 hours earlier:

Nice one.

As I noted this action is fairly insignificant, it's unbalanced (what steps have Spain taken to condemn or punish Palestinian violance?) and as Manic Moran pointed out potententially self harming in that the Israeli team might actuallly have something to contribute to the science of fighting climate change.

But yeah, fight the power!

By the way, given this is collective punishment...are people now in approval of bulldozing the houses of Palestinians to punish sucide bomb attacks? Nah, thought not.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

As I noted this action is fairly insignificant, it's unbalanced (what steps have Spain taken to condemn or punish Palestinian violance?).

As the Palestinians are already internationally isolated, cut off and blocked one would have a job finding something to sanction.

Secondly Israel, as the occupier and instigator of the colonies, is the aggressor.

Sand wrote: »

By the way, given this is collective punishment...are people now in approval of bulldozing the houses of Palestinians to punish sucide bomb attacks? Nah, thought not.

If you bothered reading the OP you'll see they were not evicted for being Israeli, but for being based in the occupied territory of the West Bank.

(You might also explain how being banned from an international competition is comparable to the destruction of housing, denial of water and food resources etc.)

spadder

Will the Spanish expell themselves form the competition on the grounds that the Basques and the Catalans would dispute the occupation of their lands?

Bottle_of_Smoke

spadder wrote: »

Will the Spanish expell themselves form the competition on the grounds that the Basques and the Catalans would dispute the occupation of their lands?

the west bank is internationally recognised as illegal occupation

Sand

@Nodin

As the Palestinians are already internationally isolated, cut off and blocked one would have a job finding something to sanction.

Secondly Israel, as the occupier and instigator of the colonies, is the aggressor.

So in effect, no they havent taken any steps to condemn or punish Palestinian violence. In isolation, this wouldnt be a major issue. Given their steps to condemn and punish Israelis, then its seen in a different light - punishing one side, approval of the other.

As for your second point - irrelevant. But if you want Ill dig out the records of Arab pogroms against Jewish women and childen 70 and 80 years ago, long before Israel existed in the modern sense. I can dig out the records where Arab Palestinian leaders helped the Nazis recruit SS divisions to assist in the "good work" of exterminating the Jews. Who started it again?

But thatd be a waste of both our times, wouldnt it? You like the "they started it!" logic, but only from a particular start point that ignores any awkward events prior to the approved start point.

If you bothered reading the OP you'll see they were not evicted for being Israeli, but for being based in the occupied territory of the West Bank.

I said it was collective punishment - the University has 500 Arab students so the team could actually consist of many Arab members, further punishing them ironically. The team might consist of Israeli peace activists for all you know. But thats irrelevant, its designed to punish Israel through them, as opposed to punishing them for any crime they have committed.

Interestingly, this is the first time the event has been held in Spain. It will probably be the last too given the way the event has been co-opted for political point scoring.

(You might also explain how being banned from an international competition is comparable to the destruction of housing, denial of water and food resources etc.)

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

So in effect, no they havent taken any steps to condemn or punish Palestinian violence..

Its well known that the EU has various blocks on Hamas. Are you being obtuse?

Sand wrote: »

In isolation, this wouldnt be a major issue. Given their steps to condemn and punish Israelis, then its seen in a different light - punishing one side, approval of the other...

You presume equivalence.

Were it not for the alliance between the US and Israel, I doubt the Palestinians would find themselves as isolated as they do, nor Israel as "acceptable" in certain quarters.

Sand wrote: »

As for your second point - irrelevant. But if you want Ill dig out the records of Arab pogroms against Jewish women and childen 70 and 80 years ago, long before Israel existed in the modern sense. I can dig out the records where Arab Palestinian leaders helped the Nazis recruit SS divisions to assist in the "good work" of exterminating the Jews. Who started it again?...

What has that to do with the occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

Sand wrote: »

But thatd be a waste of both our times, wouldnt it? You like the "they started it!" logic, but only from a particular start point that ignores any awkward events prior to the approved start point.

Not at all. The occupation and its attendant colonialism is wrong regardless of who started it or when. Were Egypt to take back Gaza and repopulate parts of it with Egyptians, it would be equally wrong. You don't seem to see the irony in accusing me of using "they started it" logic, when you've already trotted out two of the classic excuses for colonisation of the OT.

Sand wrote: »

I said it was (.....) they have committed..

Its irrelevant how many Arabs are members. The university is located in occupied territory, outside Israels borders and cannot represent the state of Israel. If it applied as a representative of the OT, that would presumably acceptable.

Sand wrote: »

Interestingly, this is the first time the event has been held in Spain. It will probably be the last too given the way the event has been co-opted for political point scoring...

Its a perfectly valid score. Colonialism is wrong. It was wrong when Spain was actively engaged in it, and its wrong now regardless of who is doing it, be it Morrocco, Indonesia or Israel.

Sand wrote: »

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

Another sneering non-sequitur, replete with the usual anti-Arab cliches.

marco murphy

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

???

wes

A sensible and fair decision to ban a University that is actively violating international law. Nice to see the law actually being applied to a country, that very often gets to violate it with no consequences.

dlofnep

Good work.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

A sensible and fair decision to ban a University that is actively violating international law. Nice to see the law actually being applied to a country, that very often gets to violate it with no consequences.

So long as it's even handed and any Palestinians who happened to support terrorism against Israel would be treated the same way.

Sand

@ Nodin

Its well known that the EU has various blocks on Hamas. Are you being obtuse?

Well, thats a poor comparison on many levels, a reoccuring theme in your posts so far.

Even if we allow that the Spanish housing ministry and the EU are interchangeable(they're not), Hamas are terrorists who have carried out atrocities against civillian targets.

The university research team competing in a competition to further the fight against climate change are....a university research team.

You see how your comparison is terrible?

What has that to do with the occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?

Absolutely nothing if recorded history started in 1948. Quite a bit otherwise.

Its irrelevant how many Arabs are members.

Of course it is. Its collective punishment, so the identity or beliefs of those who are being punished is irrelevant - theyre being targeted to punish others. It doesnt matter to the Israelis if a suicide bombers family disagreed with his politics when they bulldoze the familys house either.

Another sneering non-sequitur, replete with the usual anti-Arab cliches.

Oh but your usage of that formula of words was some soaring feat of oratory? Please.

You compared the punishments.

I compared the crimes.

@Perestroika

???

You wont have heard of this. Not really interesting or newsworthy afterall.

A hero of the Palestinian resistance strapped explosives to himself, found a Jewish childrens birthday party, waited for the crowd of guests to begin to leave and entered the group of children and parents and detonated his belt.

A 7 year old girl, a 3 year girl, both their parents, their 15 year old cousin, a seven month old baby, the babies mother, an 18 month old toddler and the toddlers 12 year old brother were killed by the suicide bomber.

Of course, he was probably driven to it by some trauma in his life. In reality, the suicide bomber is the victim. Not the childen he deliberately targeted and wiped out. After all, they started it.

The real assholes are those guys who attend a university.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

So long as it's even handed and any Palestinians who happened to support terrorism against Israel would be treated the same way.

The Palestinians are punished all the time. Hamas after they won the Palestinian election were immediately boycotted by most of the West. Then there is the siege of Gaza, which is happening due the complicity to the EU, US and Egypt.

Its not like that isn't well known, but the way some people are banging on here, as if poor little Israel is being picked on, which is so much nonsense of course. The Palestinian get punished all the time, and the moment Israel is punished people suddenly develop a very selective amnesia.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians are punished all the time. Hamas after they won the Palestinian election were immediately boycotted by most of the West. Then there is the siege of Gaza, which is happening due the complicity to the EU, US and Egypt.

Its not like that isn't well known, but the way some people are banging on here, as if poor little Israel is being picked on, which is so much nonsense of course. The Palestinian get punished all the time, and the moment Israel is punished people suddenly develop a very selective amnesia.

And tbh they should be.

It's very easy for Irish people to sympathise with the oppressed Palestinians, but there are two sides to every story.

It always worries me when looking at how people approach the Middle East that most people are very biased one way or another.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

And tbh they should be.

Who, the Israeli's or the Palestinians?

I would like to point out that siege of Gaza is quite a bit worse, than some students not being allowed to be in a competition. The punishment used against the Palestinians are far more severe than that which Israel receives, despite Israel many murderous rampages against civilians as well. It pretty clear that the West values Palestinians lives less that that of a Israeli, to me.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It's very easy for Irish people to sympathise with the oppressed Palestinians, but there are two sides to every story.

Sure, there are. In the whole climate change debate to give an example, we have one side who says its man made, and another which says its natural or not happening at all. Now one of those sides is correct (those saying climate change is happening and man made) and the other is completely wrong.

Now, just because there are 2 sides, doesn't make them equally valid. You have to argue the merits of each side, and decide for yourself, if both are equally valid or if one side is basically right.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It always worries me when looking at how people approach the Middle East that most people are very biased one way or another.

Well, thats the way it is with most things. However, bias basically comes to your pov in the end.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

Who, the Israeli's or the Palestinians?

I would like to point out that siege of Gaza is quite a bit worse, than some students not being allowed to be in a competition. The punishment used against the Palestinians are far more severe than that which Israel receives, despite Israel many murderous rampages against civilians as well. It pretty clear that the West values Palestinians lives less that that of a Israeli, to me.

Both.

The West and the Arab world.

Sure, there are. In the whole climate change debate to give an example, we have one side who says its man made, and another which says its natural or not happening at all. Now one of those sides is correct (those saying climate change is happening and man made) and the other is completely wrong.

Now, just because there are 2 sides, doesn't make them equally valid. You have to argue the merits of each side, and decide for yourself, if both are equally valid or if one side is basically right.

I think in this case you've got two sides who are both in the wrong really. Or, more accurately, two sides who've both done terrible things to each other.

Well, thats the way it is with most things. However, bias basically comes to your pov in the end.

Yup.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Both.

The West and the Arab world.

Ok.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I think in this case you've got two sides who are both in the wrong really. Or, more accurately, two sides who've both done terrible things to each other.

I would personally be of the opinion, that all violence (for both sides) is a direct result of the occupation and that the side that has the power to end the occupation is the occupier.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

@ Nodin

Well, thats a poor comparison on many levels, a reoccuring theme in your posts so far.

Even if we allow that the Spanish housing ministry and the EU are interchangeable(they're not), Hamas are terrorists who have carried out atrocities against civillian targets.

The university research team competing in a competition to further the fight against climate change are....a university research team.

You see how your comparison is terrible?
.

And the occupation of the land that allows that University to be claimed by Israel is enforced with fluffy kittens, not the IDF, who haven't killed, beaten and tortured thousands in the process. Not to mention the land confiscation and construction of colonies.

Sand wrote: »

Of course it is. Its collective punishment, so the identity or beliefs of those who are being punished is irrelevant - theyre being targeted to punish others. It doesnt matter to the Israelis if a suicide bombers family disagreed with his politics when they bulldoze the familys house either.
.

The majority of South African police in Apartheid times were "black". Does that somehow mean Apartheid wasn't evil and that sanctions never should have been brought?

Sand wrote: »

Oh but your usage of that formula of words was some soaring feat of oratory? Please..

Yep, when in doubt, sneer.

Don't you normally just post to inform us how pointless the whole debate is?

Sand wrote: »

Of course, he was probably driven to it by some trauma in his life. In reality, the suicide bomber is the victim. Not the childen he deliberately targeted and wiped out. After all, they started it...

O is it Atrocity Bingo time? Deadly.

Palestinian children killed by the IDF outnumber Israeli children killed by 4 or 5 to 1. Please amuse us with the list of excuses for that, especially the ones killed by sniper fire.

Sand

And the occupation of the land that allows that University to be claimed by Israel is enforced with fluffy kittens, not the IDF, who haven't killed, beaten and tortured thousands in the process. Not to mention the land confiscation and construction of colonies.

Again, the University is not the IDF. If you have a problem with the IDF, punish the IDF.

We are again on collective punishment - punishing people for some connection to criminals.

I really dont see how someone can welcome the expulsion of otherwise unremarkable university students as being just, and yet howl about the injustice of a family home belonging to a suicide bomber's family being demolished. The same logic underpins both - collective punishment to provide incentives for the group to police themselves.

The majority of South African police in Apartheid times were "black". Does that somehow mean Apartheid wasn't evil and that sanctions never should have been brought?

It means banning a South African university team just because they were South African, and potentially Black South African, would have been A - pointless, B - somewhat self defeating.

Yep, when in doubt, sneer.

Hey, I just liked your logic so much I "liberated" it for my own purposes. You ought to be pleased.

Don't you normally just post to inform us how pointless the whole debate is?

It is. I have'nt noticed world peace break out during the duration of this thread. Just people trampling across principles and evidence in the rush to the unquestioned support of the poor, downtrodden people of....well, who is it this week?

O is it Atrocity Bingo time? Deadly.

Palestinian children killed by the IDF outnumber Israeli children killed by 4 or 5 to 1. Please amuse us with the list of excuses for that, especially the ones killed by sniper fire.

Meh, Palestinians send their kids to be suicide bombers, or to attack front line soldiers with stones. Israelis keep their kids in school and keep them safe as they can.

Statistics arent as revealing as you might believe. Whilst civillian casualties are inevitable when you send soldiers into a built up urban area, those deaths tend to be accidental: rounds designed to pierce armour go right through a wall/house hitting people behind. There was absolutely nothing accidental about the murder I linked. It was chilling, deliberate, targeted murder of children. The hatred underlying it is disturbing. I would not champion such people as the poor, downtrodden.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Again, the University is not the IDF. If you have a problem with the IDF, punish the IDF..

The University is competing on behalf of Israel. To recognise it as a valid competitor is to defacto recognise the occupation. The occupation is illegal.

Sand wrote: »

I really dont see how someone can welcome the expulsion of otherwise unremarkable university students as being just, and yet howl about the injustice of a family home belonging to a suicide bomber's family being demolished. The same logic underpins both - collective punishment to provide incentives for the group to police themselves...

The latter is a violent act against the defencless, the former a rejection of colonialism in the form of a mild rebuke.

Of course this kind of thing could be stopped, leaving only acts of violence as the methods of protest open....

Sand wrote: »

It means banning a South African university team just because they were South African, and potentially Black South African, would have been A - pointless, B - somewhat self defeating....

Yet South Africa was boycotted and its international isolation helped end apartheid.

Sand wrote: »

It is. I have'nt noticed world peace break out during the duration of this thread. Just people trampling across principles and evidence in the rush to the unquestioned support of the poor, downtrodden people of....well, who is it this week?
....

They're being forcibly colonised. Thats a "wrong" regardless of when, who or how.

Sand wrote: »

Meh, Palestinians (......) downtrodden.

Two stereotypical answers down, another three to go.

And yes, civillian casualities are inevitable when an occupying force is an urban area, or indeed anywhere else. They increase when that force is there to faciltate the building of colonies (illegal colonies) and supress the population to that end.

Is that meant to excuse the burglars raiding the house for their killing of the occupants? I mean, if they only went in with robbery in mind and just had to kill a few to get the job done....

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

I would personally be of the opinion, that all violence (for both sides) is a direct result of the occupation and that the side that has the power to end the occupation is the occupier.

This is just me, but I would blame;

1. Israel for occupying that land
2. The Arab nations around Palestine who treat the Palestinians so poorly. Jordan or Syria should have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and resettled them decades ago.
3. The people who put Israel there in the first place. The Jews were dumped in British Palestine, given a country, and then promptly abandoned when the Arabs attacked them. From day one they've grown up as a nation knowing that each and every one of their neighbours wants to wipe them out.

Such an attitude means they will never be able to let their guard down and will continue committing atrocities, because they're constantly 'at war' and have been since the 40s, and will probably always be, given that they're a Jewish nation in an area the Arabs claim they rightfully stole centuries ago.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

1. Israel for occupying that land

Alright.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

2. The Arab nations around Palestine who treat the Palestinians so poorly. Jordan or Syria should have taken hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and resettled them decades ago.

The Palestinians want to go back to there homes, so resettlement is not much a redress for that, but your right that the Arab states should have treated the Palestinians much better.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

3. The people who put Israel there in the first place. The Jews were dumped in British Palestine, given a country, and then promptly abandoned when the Arabs attacked them. From day one they've grown up as a nation knowing that each and every one of their neighbours wants to wipe them out.

Such an attitude means they will never be able to let their guard down and will continue committing atrocities, because they're constantly 'at war' and have been since the 40s, and will probably always be, given that they're a Jewish nation in an area the Arabs claim they rightfully stole centuries ago.

Sorry, you will find that the Zionists wanted to go there, and actively lobbied for a Jewish state in Palestine. They also actively did there best to get Jews to move to Palestine. So they were hardly dumped there. The Zionists wanted a state there and found people in the international community to help them achieve this aim.

Also, going some place with the express intention of taking over will always result in conflict. The Zionists actions was always going to result in conflict. It was the inevitable result. You go looking for a fight, you really shouldn't be surprised when you find one imho.

turgon

I previously tried to spark a debate on how, whereas the Palestinian death toll is higher, the motivation to kill Israelis is much greater and more evil. This fell flat on its feet: in the dogmatic "close one eye and be king" view of the world held by sympathizers of Hamas, the Israeli state is wholly and utterly 100% evil yet Hamas only slightly (and justifiably) so. The Palestinian citizens are perfect and are being constantly wronged, yet keeping Israeli citizens out of a Climate Change competition is Right. The hypocrisy is so great and so thorough that I dont think the Hamas sympathizers can even sense it slightly.

Sand

The University is competing on behalf of Israel. To recognise it as a valid competitor is to defacto recognise the occupation. The occupation is illegal.

Its competing on behalf of the university. Just as much as the various European universities are competing on behalf of their campus as opposed too some national team...

The latter is a violent act against the defencless, the former a rejection of colonialism in the form of a mild rebuke.

Of course this kind of thing could be stopped, leaving only acts of violence as the methods of protest open....

The latter is a punishment of a violent act against the defenceless, the former is the punishment of the crime of attending a university.

Theres no escaping it - the punishments scale with the crime, as they should, but the underlying principle: collective punishment, is inherent to both.

But please, do continue in the double think...

Yet South Africa was boycotted and its international isolation helped end apartheid.

Helped? Perhaps. Perhaps it was effectively irrelevant? I can understand the boycott of military applicable goods to Israel ( so long as a similar boycott was effected on the Palestinians), but I dont see how boycotting civillian academics, who can help guide the future direction of their peoples, is helpful. Will the Israelis do a big period of soul searching over this event? No - more than likely they will chalk it up to Spanish anti-semitism and retreat further into the siege mentality that they can only rely upon themselves for their own defence. Given that, they will be more open to aggressive mindsets for dealing with the Palestinian threat to their state.

The significant factor in South Africa would have been that apartheid was inherently unsustainable - as you pointed out yourself the majority of the security forces imposing apartheid were black. Apartheid was a relic of a particular time - regardless of the boycott, the white minority was always going to have to reach some sort of deal with the black majority. Simple numbers, without the support of British imperialism, dictated as much. Without international backing ( Either the British Empire, or some alternative) then white rule was simply waiting for the big uprising the security forces couldnt control, or worse would join themselves.

Israel is not attempting to rule the Palestinians or integrate them into the Israeli state - they are simply projecting their power and influence forward into the "badlands" around their border to protect their people - and in doing so are reaching into the same toolbox every successful militant state has employed when faced with dangerous frontiers and hostile tribes: military occupation, garrison settlements, pacification.

International boycotts will not help the Israelis reach some ephiphany of "Maybe if we give Hamas everything they want, and say were really, really sorry theyll be nice to us!" It will probably just reinforce their militant tendencies and the belief that when it comes up against it, they cant depend on the EU to even talk to them, let alone defend them. Israel tends to have an immense chip on its shoulder, called the Holocaust when cynics might note that more Europeans tended to colloborate with shoving Jews into ovens and rejecting Jewish refugees as opposed to defending them. Thats an unfair assement, but its a certain mindset.

The Israelis do not trust the EU. They just dont. They see EU funding flooding into the pockets of Hamas. They see the EU states being overwhelmingly hostile to Israel, they see anti-semitism on the rise in Europe (the latest being a Swedish newspaper frontpaging claims that the IDF killed Palestinians to harvest their organs, the old "Jews drinking Arab childrens bloodd on Passover" slur updated for the 21st century) and they percieve the EU as being biased against them.

They dont trust the UN either. They remember the last time UN troops simply withdrew rather than seriously defend the border with Egypt against an Egyptian attack. Again, reinforcing the mindset that Israel must look to its own defences. Whilst some point to the number of UN condemnations of Israel that have been vetoed by the US for being one sided, Israelis note that all those condemnations were one sided and ignored the atrocities of various Palestinian terrorist groups. Further undermining their trust in the UN.

Now, maybe you think such isolationism and encouraging a siege mentality is a good thing - but perhaps better results might be brought about by some carrot, as well as stick.

Ban the IDF or defence exports...fine. Banning a university team with a project to help climate change...stupid. Sends completely the wrong message. You need to build trust and engagement on the one hand, otherwise the criticisms offered with the other are easily dismissed. The world needs to build bridges with the non crazy god squad Israelis, help them climb out of the bunkers as opposed to abandoning them to the mindset of the ****ing crazies.

I mean christ...how does it help the Palestinians to encourage a siege mentality in their opponents where EU and UN criticism becomes irrelevant to Israelis because "They're against us anyway". It's easy to dismiss the criticism of your enemies, very hard to dismiss the criticism of your friends.

But yeah, never mind me. I'm sure you've got the winning strategy cracked. Keep it up, its only been 51 years, far too early to tell yet.

Two stereotypical answers down, another three to go.

Sorry, do I need to link the examples of child suicide bombers? The TV shows where children are encouraged to become suicide bombers? The scenes where Palestinian kids are sent to fight soldiers with stones, because it will be good for the cameras and the propaganda value?

If Israelis did all these things with their kids, then your simple number crunching might have merit...otherwise we're forced to acknowledge that if you send some children up against a front line military whilse sending another set to school, you are going to get disproprotional numbers of kids killed in the former set.

I dont know about you, but I encourage Palestinians to educate their kids and encourage themselves to get jobs. Id be ****ing furious if some kids TV show was trying to persuade any child that being a suicide bomber was the best thing that could happen to them.

Crazy, I know.

And yes, civillian casualities are inevitable when an occupying force is an urban area, or indeed anywhere else.

Agreed. Any time a full on battle takes place in an urban center with modern small arms, explosives, artillery, armour and gunships...civillians will get hurt, even with the best of intentions. Even the Nazis decided to abandon Paris without a serious fight rather than expose the population to the destruction of an urban battle like Stalingrad. Why Hamas encourages Israelis raids and attacks by using urban centers as cover...well it's a mystery.

Is that meant to excuse the burglars raiding the house for their killing of the occupants? I mean, if they only went in with robbery in mind and just had to kill a few to get the job done....

I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has moved beyond your simple analysis. The Israelis arent burglars. They live there. The other house mates dont like them, but thats too bad.

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

anonymous_joe

wes wrote: »

The Palestinians want to go back to there homes, so resettlement is not much a redress for that, but your right that the Arab states should have treated the Palestinians much better.

We're definitely in agreement here.

Sorry, you will find that the Zionists wanted to go there, and actively lobbied for a Jewish state in Palestine. They also actively did there best to get Jews to move to Palestine. So they were hardly dumped there. The Zionists wanted a state there and found people in the international community to help them achieve this aim.

Yeah, I know.

But however way you look at it, the mechanics used were flawed. Compensation or something, anything should have been given. It was never going to be fair, but reducing unfairness as much as possible should have been paramount.

Also, going some place with the express intention of taking over will always result in conflict. The Zionists actions was always going to result in conflict. It was the inevitable result. You go looking for a fight, you really shouldn't be surprised when you find one imho.

Absolutely. And that works both ways - because both sides had/have a claim to the area. What else could happen but conflict? Grim and futile inevitability of human existence sadly.

wes

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Yeah, I know.

But however way you look at it, the mechanics used were flawed. Compensation or something, anything should have been given. It was never going to be fair, but reducing unfairness as much as possible should have been paramount.

Well yeah pretty much, a lot of people got screwed over.

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Absolutely. And that works both ways - because both sides had/have a claim to the area. What else could happen but conflict? Grim and futile inevitability of human existence sadly.

Yeah, pretty much, but by the same token people can rise above the crap and sort things out.

wes

turgon wrote: »

I previously tried to spark a debate on how, whereas the Palestinian death toll is higher, the motivation to kill Israelis is much greater and more evil. This fell flat on its feet: in the dogmatic "close one eye and be king" view of the world held by sympathizers of Hamas, the Israeli state is wholly and utterly 100% evil yet Hamas only slightly (and justifiably) so. The Palestinian citizens are perfect and are being constantly wronged, yet keeping Israeli citizens out of a Climate Change competition is Right. The hypocrisy is so great and so thorough that I dont think the Hamas sympathizers can even sense it slightly.

Ah, yes the old accuse random people of being Hamas sympathizers. That one never gets old. No, one btw claimed anyone of being perfect either or any one of being "100% evil", but it is fair easier to invent a argument that no one on the thread has made and argue against that instead.

The irony here is that you are the one using the terms such as "evil" to describe one side of the conflict.

I think the old saying of actions speak louder than words apply here. People can spout all kinds of lovely words, but if they then go on murderous rampages, then I think its fair to say there words are worthless, and quite frankly it is nonsensical to try and present words as some kind excuse, to people who murder innocent civilians.

Honestly, one side is more pc in there speech than the other, but still manages to kill a whole lot of people more than the other guy, who has a bigger mouth on them, and somehow the more pc side are better? The way I see it killing innocent people is bad, regardless of the flowery prose people use to excuse it. The nicest words in the world are worthless, if people the saying them still murders innocent people, and ultimately it doesn't change a damn thing.

Now back to the colonists. You see the colonists are breaking international law, and they do so knowingly. They are based in the occupied territories, which they know violates international law, the people involved are not children and are adults who are responsible for there own actions. All we are seeing for once is colonists being punished for violating international law, something which happens to the Palestinians all the time on a far greater scale and often applied to people who have done nothing wrong, but the moment any kind of punishment is applied to Israels colonists (who are once again knowingly breaking international law, regardless of how hard there apologists try to pretend otherwise), people are suddenly concerned about such things. These aren't people sitting in Tel Aviv minding there own business, but people involved in a violent colonial process, and to present them as some how being innocent of there own actions is laughable and basically denies the facts of the matter as per usual to try and make out that poor little Israel is being picked on, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Its competing on behalf of the university. Just as much as the various European universities are competing on behalf of their campus as opposed too some national team....

It's competing as an Israeli university. It is located outside the state of Israels borders, in a territory where the majority of the population wish to have nothing to do with Israel.

Sand wrote: »

The latter is a punishment of a violent act against the defenceless, the former is the punishment of the crime of attending a university.....

A university located in occupied territory.

You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between a diplomatic snub and a violent act.

Are all suicide bombings aimed at the "defenceless"?

Sand wrote: »

Helped? Perhaps. Perhaps it was effectively irrelevant? I can understand the boycott of military applicable goods to Israel ( so long as a similar boycott was effected on the Palestinians), but I dont see how boycotting civillian academics, who can help guide the future direction of their peoples, is helpful......

It isolates Israel, rams home the message that the occupation is wrong, that Israel is expanding outside its borders. And brings publicity for the cause.

Sand wrote: »

The significant factor in South Africa would have been that apartheid was inherently unsustainable - as you pointed out yourself the majority of the security forces imposing apartheid were black. Apartheid was a relic of a particular time ......

Yes, as hopefully one day the end of Israels colonisation will be seen as a relic of unilateral US support.

Sand wrote: »

Israel is not attempting to rule the Palestinians or integrate them into the Israeli state - they are simply projecting their power and influence forward into the "badlands" around their border to protect their people - and in doing so are reaching into the same toolbox every successful militant state has employed when faced with dangerous frontiers and hostile tribes: military occupation, garrison settlements, pacification.......

"garrison settlements"? You aren't very aqquainted with the majority of Israeli settlements then. Its quite obvious that its a land grab, and nothing to do with "security". In fact, by placing these settlements, Israel is undermining its own security.

Sand wrote: »

If Israelis did all these things with their kids, then your simple number crunching might have merit...otherwise we're forced to acknowledge that if you send some children up against a front line military whilse sending another set to school, you are going to get disproprotional numbers of kids killed in the former set........

Which again sets the blame on the occupied and not the occupier. Funny enough.

I might add that Israel does indeed indoctrinate its children - it just happens to be more subtle about it.

Sand wrote: »

The Israelis (.......)them. ........

Fascinating. A state occupies and colonises territory outsides its borders, brutalises the locals for a number of decades, yet we're supposed to worry about its 'feelings'.

Sand wrote: »

Now, maybe you think such isolationism and encouraging a siege mentality is a good thing - but perhaps better results might be brought about by some carrot, as well as stick.

Thanks to the US, there is no stick, and rather too much carrot. There are no meaningful embargos or sanctions against Israel. Thus why this small gesture is getting a thread.

Sand wrote: »

Agreed. Any time a (..........)as cover...well it's a mystery..

Possibly because they have no choice. Why do you keep focusing on Hamas and Gaza? The West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem are the ones under occupation at the moment.

Sand wrote: »

I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has moved beyond your simple analysis. The Israelis arent burglars. They live there. The other house mates dont like them, but thats too bad...

Then why did the world sanction a war against Iraq when it annexed Kuwait?

And yes, as the land was taken by force, or under threat of force, or by 'orders' which have no legal weight outside Israels borders, it is indeed an act of theft.

Sand wrote: »

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

Do me a favour. Please highlight where I said the state of Israel should not exist, with a link back to the post please.

Goudance

Sands, please take off your zionist Israeli glasses and see the real truth please, instead of coming out with the crap you are spouting here.
Here are a few of your lies and half truths.

"Will the Israelis do a big period of soul searching over this event? No - more than likely they will chalk it up to Spanish anti-semitism and retreat further into the siege mentality that they can only rely upon themselves for their own defence. Given that, they will be more open to aggressive mindsets for dealing with the Palestinian threat to their state"

Yes Sands, blame anti semitism once again for critism of Israel. It is the oldest trick in the book for Israeli's, whereby any critism of them is automatically judged to be anti semitic. It is a well worn out record by now! Rely on themselve for defense? How do you make that out whenever they are supported and armed beyond belief by the US, UK, and EU in defense? Who arms them Sands?

"I think the old saying of actions speak louder than words apply here. People can spout all kinds of lovely words, but if they then go on murderous rampages, then I think its fair to say there words are worthless, and quite frankly it is nonsensical to try and present words as some kind excuse, to people who murder innocent civilians. "

I take it you are referring to the Israeli's here who have murdered more innocent civillians that Palestinian groups have?

"they see anti-semitism on the rise in Europe (the latest being a Swedish newspaper frontpaging claims that the IDF killed Palestinians to harvest their organs, "

So, when the truth is exposed about their human organ harvesting, they go on the "anti semitism" rant once more. Do you not know the truth about their havesting? Have you read anything about it? Do you not remember the story about the 1st heart transplant in Israel? Where they took the heart from a Palestinian patient and let him die? Read up Sands on some of the stories, and if reporting them is anti semitic, then god help us.

"The scenes where Palestinian kids are sent to fight soldiers with stones, because it will be good for the cameras and the propaganda value?"

I take it you havn't seen the images of Israeli school kids writting murderous mssages on the IDF missiles before they bombed and killed innocent children in Gaza?

"I dont know about you, but I encourage Palestinians to educate their kids and encourage themselves to get jobs

How do you encourage Palestinians to educate their kids and encourage them to get jobs? Do you not know that because of the wall in the west bank, travel to work and school is totally restriced and they are effectivly cut off fom schools, jobs and their land? Do you not know that since the siege beagn in Gaza 3 years ago, and everyone was locked up in there, thousands of men lost their jobs as they coldn't travel? Do you not know that during the 22 day massacre, Israel bombed practically every industry left, and by refusing to allow in building materials, effectivly shut them down for good. Plus, do you not remember all those schools and universities that were destroyed as well in the massacre? Remember the UN schools that were hit with illegal White Phosphorus shells, killing so many school kids in the process?

I have saved this classic piece of rubbish from you to the last:

"The Israelis arent burglars"

Now Sands, where do you get off comming out with sh1te like this?
Is it not a fact that they have stole large swathes of land in the west bank, illegall under internatiional law? Have they not stole land during the building of the illegal apartheid wall? What about all hose houses they stole? Have they not stole water from the Palestinians?
Oh, and just to back up my facts, and prove that they are thieves, (if you dont believe the UN and internatiional laws), what about the IDF soldier who stole an ATM card from an innocent man in Gaza after he was murdered, and then cleaned out his bank account? Now, wasn't he a noble soldier?

So, Sands, before you come out with any more of your Zionist propaganda, learn a bit of history, study the facts, see the truh, and then you wont look stupid when you post again.

Goudance

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1046041.html

Link to story on heart transplant/thieft

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1106996.html

Link to story on ATM card thieft

http://www.ifamericansknew.com/cur_sit/sweden.html

Another interesting article on their thieft of human organs

wes

Goudance wrote: »

"I think the old saying of actions speak louder than words apply here. People can spout all kinds of lovely words, but if they then go on murderous rampages, then I think its fair to say there words are worthless, and quite frankly it is nonsensical to try and present words as some kind excuse, to people who murder innocent civilians. "

I take it you are referring to the Israeli's here who have murdered more innocent civillians that Palestinian groups have?

I assume your referring to my post, and I was talking about Israel in response to turgon's defence of Israel's actions, because they don't quite as many mean things as Hamas, but go out and do them instead. So yeah talking about Israel.

dvpower

Sand wrote: »

Its competing on behalf of the university. Just as much as the various European universities are competing on behalf of their campus as opposed too some national team...

Not quite. Here's how the university describes itself on its own website

As a demonstratively Zionist institution, the University Center has two key requirements: every student must study one course per semester on some aspect of Judaism, Jewish heritage or Land of Israel studies, and the Israeli flag must be displayed in every classroom, laboratory and auditorium on campus.

Nodin

Sand wrote:

Agreed. Any time a full on battle takes place in an urban center with modern small arms, explosives, artillery, armour and gunships...civillians will get hurt, even with the best of intentions. Even the Nazis decided to abandon Paris without a serious fight rather than expose the population to the destruction of an urban battle like Stalingrad. Why Hamas encourages Israelis raids and attacks by using urban centers as cover...well it's a mystery.

Presumably its all the Palestinians fault for this as well......

POLITICS IS playing as important a part as available evidence this week, as the UN Human Rights Council decides whether to recommend war crimes trials for atrocities in Gaza.
Such investigations are recommended in a long-awaited report by international jurist Richard Goldstone presented yesterday to the council, in which he highlighted numerous violations in Israel’s military campaign, which cost 1,400 lives.

Certainly, the report pulls no punches. It lists numerous violations by Israel during its January offensive, including the targeting, with white phosphorus shells, of Gaza’s Al Quds and Al Wafa hospitals, and a UN compound sheltering 600 refugees.

It lists complaints that Israeli troops used Palestinian civilians, often blindfolded, as “human shields” while searching suspect buildings.
And it says Israeli forces also struck at non-military targets such as water plants and Gaza’s only flour mill, along with a sewage treatment plant, which led to 200,000 cubic metres of raw sewage flooding nearby farmland.

Most bizarre was the destruction of a giant chicken farm which supplied Gaza with 10 per cent of its eggs.
“Armoured bulldozers systematically flattened the chicken coups, killing all 31,000 chickens inside,” it reports. “The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy by the Israeli armed forces,” says the report.
Justice Goldstone writes that the evidence, collected over several visits to Gaza, indicates that civilian targets were deliberately hit, a violation of the rules of war.

“There were almost no mistakes made according to the government of Israel,” the report says, describing the attacks as “a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population”.

link

Those chickens...obviously a dire threat to the security of the neighbouring nuclear power. Flour mill had to go of course. Some 'militant' might have put some on his face and frightened an Israeli by pretending to be a ghost.

Mind you, the great victory over the Chickens should come as no suprise - they did run over the petting zoo in a similar fashion a few years back, presumably to prevent young children being indoctrinated in petting cute animals.......

getcover

Sand wrote: »

You might explain how attending a university open to Jewish and Arab students is comparable to strapping explosives to yourself, and attempting to suicide bomb a childrens birthday party.

No particular interest in Middle east politics, but I've noticed that this kind of sentence regularly features in any "riposte" to any point which purports to side with or to have understanding for the Palestinian people.
Its a sly and nasty trick, designed to imply that the person who the sentence is aimed at is a supporter of child murder.
It's pathetic in the extreme and doesn't say much for the ability of the poster to have any sort of sensible debate.

Sand

That everyone? Alright...lets get started.

@Nodin

You seem to be unable to grasp the difference between a diplomatic snub and a violent act.

You seem unable to grasp that punishments ramp with the crime: Attend the wrong univesity? Youre banned from the competion. Suicide bomb civillians? Your families home gets bulldozed.

Theyre both collective punishment. One collective punishment of a minor crime, the other collective punishment of a major crime. Hence one being more harsh than the other. Which was your initial confusion leading to this tangent IIRC.

It isolates Israel....with a link back to the post please.

Like I said, keep it up. The Palestinians have been getting great strategical advice from their friends abroad for decades. I mean, look where they are now given where they were with the original UN partition plan. More than half a century of brilliant principled resistance, unsullied by reason, logic, reality or practicality.

I'm sure Israel is in total turmoil that a University team has been banned from a competition hosted by an EU member state. Probably this has sparked a a period of introspection and soul searching. The Israeli PM must have collapsed in shock - a university team kicked out for coming from an Israeli university!

Or maybe it just reinforced the siege mentality. A minor, pointless act, which offered no real benefit to Palestinians - just alienated Israelis who might otherwise be engaged with and moderated.

@Goudance

Eh, your post is basically meandering nonsense where you dont actually read what I posted - you'll probably think thats unfair so heres an example to help you improve your posting:

What I said:

"Will the Israelis do a big period of soul searching over this event? No - more than likely they will chalk it up to Spanish anti-semitism and retreat further into the siege mentality that they can only rely upon themselves for their own defence. Given that, they will be more open to aggressive mindsets for dealing with the Palestinian threat to their state"

What you responded with:

Yes Sands, blame anti semitism once again for critism of Israel.

See the bold parts? See where I reffered to the Israelis? And then "They"? See how that refers to a mindset of the Israelis, not my mindset? See how Im not blaming anti-semitism for all criticism of Israel? But referring to it as a likely Israeli reaction to this pointless, self defeating act?

Great. No need to thank me. Just post something worth the time spent glancing over it next time.

@dvpower

Not quite. Here's how the university describes itself on its own website

I know, I read the website already?

@ Nodin again

Those chickens...obviously a dire threat to the security of the neighbouring nuclear power. Flour mill had to go of course. Some 'militant' might have put some on his face and frightened an Israeli by pretending to be a ghost.

Uh, its collective punishment?

It works on exactly the same logic as you defend for the banning of the uni students: imposing a cost on the entire community for not preventing, enabling or assisting in something that is dissaproved of.

In this case, in response to rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel, the Israelis imposed an economic cost on the entire Gaza Strip.

Now feel free to disagree with collective punishment whilst advocating collective punishment.

Oh and feel free to explain to me how collective punishment of Gaza will only breed more militant attitudes in Palestinians whilst collective punishment of Israel will lead to more moderate, peaceful types.

Yeah, I'll like that.
@getcover

No particular interest in Middle east politics, but I've noticed that this kind of sentence regularly features in any "riposte" to any point which purports to side with or to have understanding for the Palestinian people.
Its a sly and nasty trick, designed to imply that the person who the sentence is aimed at is a supporter of child murder.
It's pathetic in the extreme and doesn't say much for the ability of the poster to have any sort of sensible debate.

Nodins original point:

You might also explain how being banned from an international competition is comparable to the destruction of housing, denial of water and food resources etc

So to clarify getcover, youre saying Nodins original post/comment was pathetic in the extreme, and doesnt say much for his ability to have any sort of sensible debate?

Thats a tad harsh to be honest.

getcover

Sand wrote: »

@getcover

Nodins original point:


So to clarify getcover, youre saying Nodins original post/comment was pathetic in the extreme, and doesnt say much for his ability to have any sort of sensible debate?

Thats a tad harsh to be honest.

When in a hole stop digging.
A pathetic reply, much like you child murder comment.
I shouldn't have expected anything else really...

Sand

@getcover

When in a hole stop digging.
A pathetic reply, much like you child murder comment.
I shouldn't have expected anything else really...

Yeah thought so - Like I said to Nodin, when I use his logic, his very own words, its terrible. When he uses it though, its some soaring feat of oratory.

:rolleyes:

The sad thing is whilst you bemoan the lack of debate on the topic I dont see many others offering much or engaging much in actual debate: This thread was just "HIGH FIVES GUISE!!!" until people were asked to explain why collective punishment worked in this case, why it was useful, how it helped - but apparently that debate is not wanted. Instead lets all just post insightful stuff like "Nice one".

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

You seem unable to grasp that punishments ramp with the crime: Attend the wrong univesity? Youre banned from the competion. Suicide bomb civillians? Your families home gets bulldozed.
.

"attend the wrong university"? Its a university built by one nation, outside its borders and claimed as its own. You've yet to address that.

Sand wrote: »

Like I said, keep it up. The Palestinians have been getting great strategical advice from their friends abroad for decades. I mean, look where they are now given where they were with the original UN partition plan. More than half a century of brilliant principled resistance, unsullied by reason, logic, reality or practicality. .

As recourse to the UN was blocked by US veto, what would you have them do?

Sand wrote: »

I'm sure Israel is in total turmoil that a University team has been banned from a competition hosted by an EU member state. Probably this has sparked a a period of introspection and soul searching. The Israeli PM must have collapsed in shock - a university team kicked out for coming from an Israeli university!.

Block the universities, the sports teams, anything and everything.

As has been pointed out, they aren't being blocked for being from an Israeli university, but because they are from one built in the illegally occupied territories. Thats the point you seem so keen to dance around.

Sand wrote: »

Or maybe it just reinforced the siege mentality. A minor, pointless act, which offered no real benefit to Palestinians - just alienated Israelis who might otherwise be engaged with and moderated.

The occcupation cannot be treated as normal. Theirs plenty of room for engagement outside of that.

Sand wrote: »

t works on exactly the same logic as you defend for the banning of the uni students: imposing a cost on the entire community for not preventing, enabling or assisting in something that is dissaproved of..

Again, there is no comparison between them. The barring of the illegally sited university is a non-violent protest against a violent act.

Acts of resistance against Israeli military targets which are legitimate and defined, generate similar indiscriminate reprisal.

The occupation and colonisation is illegal regardless of Palestinian activity.

Earlier you stated

Sand wrote:

Remember, the state of Israel isnt going to vanish just because you dont believe it should exist.

Where did I state that I believed Israel should not exist? A link and quote please.

Sand

"attend the wrong university"? Its a university built by one nation, outside its borders and claimed as its own. You've yet to address that.

Whats to address? The students on the team didnt build the university - they just attended it.

The rest of your post is circular - Sadly most Israel-Palestine threads end up this way. If you come up with something insightful, great, I'll comment but otherwise theres nothing to address except a couple of tangents Ive no interest in or stuff I've already addressed where you just repeat your position.

Where did I state that I believed Israel should not exist? A link and quote please.

Where did I state that you stated it? A link and quote please...

You referred to them as burglars, which by the very use of the term undermines their legitmacy.

You Godwinned them on your second post in this thread, comparing the Israeli research team to Werner Von Braun and the Nazi use of slave labour.

On your fourth post you defended unbalanced punishments of Israeli actions on the basis that Israel was the aggressor, the coloniser, the occupier.

There is a pattern emerging there. Sue me for picking up on it.

turgon

wes wrote: »

Ah, yes the old accuse random people of being Hamas sympathizers. That one never gets old.

The fact of the matter is that if you refuse to condemn the innocent slaughter of of children by Hamas, which is done regularly on here, that makes you a Hamas sympathizer.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Whats to address? The students on the team didnt build the university - they just attended it..

And that changes what? The university is outside Israels borders and thus part of the colonisation attempt.

Sand wrote: »

You referred to them as burglars, which by the very use of the term undermines their legitmacy. ..

Anything in the OT has no legitamacy, and thats not just according to me.

Sand wrote: »

You Godwinned them on your second post in this thread, comparing the Israeli research team to Werner Von Braun and the Nazi use of slave labour...

It was a reference to the amoral approach which puts the goal above any other consideration.

Sand wrote: »

On your fourth post you defended unbalanced punishments of Israeli actions on the basis that Israel was the aggressor, the coloniser, the occupier.
.

As its the one colonising the areas in question, outside the borders, they aren't "unbalanced", thats just the facts of the matter.

Now, where did I state that I believed the state of Israel should not exist, or imply same?

wes

turgon wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that if you refuse to condemn the innocent slaughter of of children by Hamas, which is done regularly on here, that makes you a Hamas sympathizer.

Plenty of people have condemned Hamas, I have done so in past threads, as have many others. Of course, its not like that actually matters, instead of trying to engage in any kind debate, you instead choose to accuse pretty much anyone who disagrees with you of supporting child murders, which is of course untrue, but a useful tactic of demonisation, that you won't bother to back up.

Personally, I do find you arguement ironic, seeing as your own defence of Israel, seeks to minimise Israels own murderous actions, based on the nice flowery prose they sometimes employ. Do you honestly think no one wpuld notice, that you basically do the exact same thing you accuse others of?

Sorry, but

:D

at the hyperbole of the thread title.

I was expecting something really big. What could this giant leap for Palestine be? Could this be the start of a new world order? No, apparently some Poindexters were sent home from a solar power competition!

Is the OP having a laugh at the expense of the Palestinians? Come on, surely by any stretch this is all pretty tiny stuff. What next, Mugabe on the brink 'cos another cricket tour is suspended?

whynotwhycanti

I’m glad conor74 can take amusement and humour from this. I personally think it has a lot more significance than he could ever imagine which really just highlights his ignorance of this situation in general.

If you could imagine a half decent Palestinian (NOT A TERRORIST) and they do exist, living under Israeli occupation in Gaza, who's home has been demolished so that Israel can expand its territories, maybe even lost a family member to the lovely IDF while 'moving' house. Now this person, watches by while the country that is illegally occupying his homeland is supported and armed by the US and the UK, it commits endless acts against humanity which have been highlighted by the UN but never acted upon. Suddenly, Spain decide to send home Israelis who have been studying in a university built in the West Bank which under European law is an illegal occupation. I don't think you can underestimate or even try play down the significance this has for the decent Palestinians, that finally a big western country has recognized that the occupation of its territories is illegal. They may have only sent home some pointdexters and this to you may surmount to a meaningless act which you find amusing but the fact is that they were sent home because Spain recognizes that Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank as this occupation is against European law. It is written in European law, and you are European whether you like it or not, that the occupation of the West Bank is illegal. It is the reason behind sending home these scientists that carries the most significance and I for one am delighted to see a Western country finally make a statement against Israel, even if it is only this gesture. Viva Espana

Sand

@Nodin

And that changes what? The university is outside Israels borders and thus part of the colonisation attempt.

It changes nothing. You dont like the university these students attended. They attended the wrong university in your eyes. Theyre being punished for that crime. So you approve of that punishment. They didnt build the university. But thats irrelevant. Theyre not being punished for building the university. Theyre being punished for attending it. Just stop denying that, and we can move on to something relevant.

Now, where did I state that I believed the state of Israel should not exist, or imply same?

Where did I state that you stated it? A link and quote please...

An answer would be appreciated....

@Conor74

I was expecting something really big. What could this giant leap for Palestine be? Could this be the start of a new world order? No, apparently some Poindexters were sent home from a solar power competition!

You have to remember the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is now moved beyond reality - its like climate change, or world peace, or 3rd world poverty. Its not so much about doing anything useful or practical - its about being morally superiour about it. The Palestinans have been urged by all their friends abroad to hold the course, deny reality, reject negotiation, settle for nothing less than everything, reassured that their violence is wrong, yet understandable....and look how well theyve done by that advice. The salvation of the Palestinian people is at hand....

I am actually struck by the memory of a similar thread I entered with an Egyptian poster...I made the point that that the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was irrelevant, only the practicalities of getting a settled peace was important. She rejected this completely - It was very important to determine and prove the blood guilt first...with Israel obviously being the guilty. The most important factor for her was for Israel to admit that they were the criminal.

I compared that utterly principled attitude with the attitude of a Palestinian doctor who wrote a letter during the Israeli attack on Gaza, where he noted the only important point was ending the violence, regardless of other factors. For Palestinians and Israelis this is a matter of life and death - for us distant spectators...its a matter of principle and feeling good about ourselves...by banning university teams. Its safe, its painless, theres no cost to us, and it makes us feel good.

High fives guise!

whynotwhycanti

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

I personally think it has a lot more significance than he could ever imagine which really just highlights his ignorance of this situation in general.

I was going to protest, but hey I see you yourself came around to my thinking too...

whynotwhycanti wrote: »

it is only this gesture.

Instead of getting all excited about the young solar scientist contest, whynotwhycanti, why don't you gimme a shout when they send in the tanks to enforce 'European law'.

Until then, let's not you and I wet our pants over what even you concede is only a 'gesture'.

whynotwhycanti

This may not mean anything to you but to an ordinary descent Palestinian it would mean alot. The fact that you cannot imagine that this gesture, yes i said gesture or whatever you want to call it, does not carry any significance does not one bit surprise me. It did however seem to bother people and the government in Israel who have come out to criticise it, oh and what was their main criticism, anti-semitism is on the rise in Spain. Firstly, give me facts to show this, and secondly please oh please present another argument to explain why some nations at times are not in total agreement with Israel and your illegal occupation of Palestine. The motto in Israel should be, 'you're either with us or you're an anti-semite'.

I will present you with a case point in history where certain irrelevant 'gestures' as you so see it can spread and lead to a huge difference. During apartheid in South Africa, what began as gestures against South African dignitaries spread into a global effort to boycott South Africa eventually leading to the abolishment of apartheid. I am not for one minute saying this is the beginning of such a global effort against Israel but you never know, history does tend to repeat itself.