The silencing of EU citizens

imeddyhobbs

So we know that the EU is spending bucket loads of money promoting a yes vote to the Lisbon treaty here in Ireland and we know that all the big company's want us to vote yes but does anyone have any idea how the people of other EU country's would like us to vote?

Isn't it interesting that we know about what intel,ryanair,microsoft want us to do but we dont seem to have a clue what other citizens of the EU think about our vote,we have little or no stats from any government in the EU regarding this

mickoneill30

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

So we know that the EU is spending bucket loads of money promoting a yes vote to the Lisbon treaty here in Ireland and we know that all the big company's want us to vote yes but does anyone have any idea how the people of other EU country's would like us to vote?

Who cares how they would like us to vote? I'll vote in my country for the way I'd like to vote. I don't care if a French guy wants me to vote No or a German wants me to vote Yes.

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Isn't it interesting that we know about what intel,ryanair,microsoft want us to do but we dont seem to have a clue what other citizens of the EU think about our vote,we have little or no stats from any government in the EU regarding this

Intel, Ryanair & Microsoft hire thousands of people in Ireland and invest millions to our economy so I don't think it's unusual that they're interested in the outcome of the Lisbon treaty. How many huge employers want us to vote no?

Captain Furball

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Who cares how they would like us to vote? I'll vote in my country for the way I'd like to vote. I don't care if a French guy wants me to vote No or a German wants me to vote Yes.

I would question how European you are so.

meglome

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

So we know that the EU is spending bucket loads of money promoting a yes vote to the Lisbon treaty here in Ireland and we know that all the big company's want us to vote yes but does anyone have any idea how the people of other EU country's would like us to vote?

How much money are the EU spending exactly? Why would it matter how eother EU country's want us to vote. We are voting in Ireland on what's best for Ireland. They can decide what's best for them in their own country's.

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Isn't it interesting that we know about what intel,ryanair,microsoft want us to do but we dont seem to have a clue what other citizens of the EU think about our vote,we have little or no stats from any government in the EU regarding this

No it's not interesting. Intel, Ryanair, Microsoft are in Ireland and employ thousands of Irish people.


And sorry who is being silenced exactly? You seem to be able to come in here and talk nonsense all you want.

mickoneill30

Captain Furball wrote: »

I would question how European you are so.

Really? Question away. Does Europe want us to vote against our own interests? Would you vote for something that benefits Europe but has a negative affect on Ireland? Why?

Which Europeans do you listen to? The ones telling you to vote yes or the ones telling you to vote no because there are plenty of both. And why?

Robbo

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Isn't it interesting that we know about what intel,ryanair,microsoft want us to do but we dont seem to have a clue what other citizens of the EU think about our vote,we have little or no stats from any government in the EU regarding this

Perhaps some system of proxy referenda in the other 26 member states, a couple of months before polling day, just to give us an idea which way the wind is blowing? If that shows up a Yes, claim we're being railroaded. If it shows up a No, claim it's the will of the people.

imeddyhobbs

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Who cares how they would like us to vote? I'll vote in my country for the way I'd like to vote. I don't care if a French guy wants me to vote No or a German wants me to vote Yes.

EU citizens will have to live by this treaty if we pass it so they will have a little bit of interest in what is going on in Ireland and its their money that is being spent here in Ireland promoting a yes vote,its not an us and them..try and keep up

mickoneill30

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

its not an us and them..try and keep up

Most of the EU has ratified this treaty as far as I can tell.
Who said it was us and them?
The attempt at wit doesn't really mean your post is smart. It's not hard to keep up with some of the wit here.

imeddyhobbs

Robbo wrote: »

Perhaps some system of proxy referenda in the other 26 member states, a couple of months before polling day, just to give us an idea which way the wind is blowing? If that shows up a Yes, claim we're being railroaded. If it shows up a No, claim it's the will of the people.

Nah,surely there would be an easier way?I would suggest a simple poll.you must be a bureaucrat...

imeddyhobbs

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Most of the EU has ratified this treaty as far as I can tell.
Who said it was us and them?

Some dutch dude or french guy im not sure.

Captain Furball

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Really? Question away. Does Europe want us to vote against our own interests? Would you vote for something that benefits Europe but has a negative affect on Ireland? Why?

Which Europeans do you listen to? The ones telling you to vote yes or the ones telling you to vote no because there are plenty of both. And why?

I see what your trying to do saturate me with loads of questions lol.
Who are Europe to tell you what to do? You said it yourself.
What is our own interests though?Name a few.

mickoneill30

Captain Furball wrote: »

I see what your trying to do saturate me with loads of questions lol.
Who are Europe to tell you what to do? You said it yourself.
What is our own interests though?Name a few.

I'm sorry. Obviously many questions in one post confuse you. I'll make it simple and ask only one.

Are you for real?

Edit: Don't bother. I don't care. Not really worth it.

meglome

Captain Furball wrote: »

I see what your trying to do saturate me with loads of questions lol.
Who are Europe to tell you what to do? You said it yourself.
What is our own interests though?Name a few.

For the craic try to answer some of them.

Captain Furball

I can't im not smart enough

imeddyhobbs

Intel, Ryanair & Microsoft have made billions out of Ireland and will continue to do so,the truth is that intel,microsoft and ryanair have already let go 100's of staff here in very recent history but yet the bosses of these companys tell us that a yes vote will create jobs...LOL...need i say more about these captains of industry who only care about money

imeddyhobbs

Captain Furball wrote: »

I can't im not smart enough

another one dealt with:D

meglome

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Intel, Ryanair & Microsoft have made billions out of Ireland and will continue to do so,the truth is that intel,microsoft and ryanair have already let go 100's of staff here in very recent history but yet the bosses of these companys tell us that a yes vote will create jobs...LOL...need i say more about these captains of industry who only care about money

Maybe you should ask all the thousands of people they employ. Do you run a business? I do and I think the Lisbon treaty is very good. I don't exploit anyone, I don't cheat anyone, I don't underpay anyone so am I one of these 'elites'?

You people would drag us all back to the stone-age, I just hope that people won't be fooled by all the bull and will vote Yes.

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

How much money are the EU spending exactly? Why would it matter how eother EU country's want us to vote. We are voting in Ireland on what's best for Ireland. They can decide what's best for them in their own country's.
And sorry who is being silenced exactly? You seem to be able to come in here and talk nonsense all you want.

Over the past 6 or 7 weeks all i seem to be reading on the front of national newspapers and all i seem to be hearing on the airwaves is about another group that favours a yes vote to lisbon thats a fact and that is what the major media outlets in this country have been telling us,another surey by another group another yes is concocted
My point is that there has been so many surveys done in Ireland but i have not been made aware of 1 that comes from mainland europe,dont they conduct surveys on topics like this on the continent?are we all alone here?

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

Maybe you should ask all the thousands of people they employ. Do you run a business? I do and I think the Lisbon treaty is very good. I don't exploit anyone, I don't cheat anyone, I don't underpay anyone so am I one of these 'elites'?

You people would drag us all back to the stone-age, I just hope that people won't be fooled by all the bull and will vote Yes.

No i dont employ people.As for the rest of your little rant i never suggested you did any of the things you mentioned and i never said that any other company did,ease up on the gin

meglome

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Over the past 6 or 7 weeks all i seem to be reading on the front of national newspapers and all i seem to be hearing on the airwaves is about another group that favours a yes vote to lisbon thats a fact and that is what the major media outlets in this country have been telling us,another surey by another group another yes is concocted
My point is that there has been so many surveys done in Ireland but i have not been made aware of 1 that comes from mainland europe,dont they conduct surveys on topics like this on the continent?are we all alone here?

Ah I see anyone who disagrees with you is lying, a cheat, an elite. I dunno, maybe you're just wrong.

Every country in the EU decided what way they wanted to vote on the Lisbon treaty in the manner set out by their laws. We need a referendum, they don't. What right do we have to decide what the rest of the EU wants?

When anyone from the EU suggests that we should vote Yes we are told they are 'bullying us' so are we now bullying the rest of the EU by trying to decide for them?

imeddyhobbs

meglome wrote: »

Ah I see anyone who disagrees with you is lying, a cheat, an elite. I dunno, maybe you're just wrong.

Every country in the EU decided what way they wanted to vote on the Lisbon treaty in the manner set out by their laws. We need a referendum, they don't. What right do we have to decide what the rest of the EU wants?

When anyone from the EU suggests that we should vote Yes we are told they are 'bullying us' so are we now bullying the rest of the EU by trying to decide for them?

Hold on..wait a sec...Lying,cheat,elete?what are you on about?are you posting in the wrong thread??sorry friend but im gonna have to report you to a mod for not staying on topic,did you have a good Arthurs day?i only ask because it sounds like you did

Daftendirekt

imeddyhobbs wrote:

So we know that the EU is spending bucket loads of money promoting a yes vote to the Lisbon treaty here in Ireland and we know that all the big company's want us to vote yes but does anyone have any idea how the people of other EU country's would like us to vote?

Isn't it interesting that we know about what intel,ryanair,microsoft want us to do but we dont seem to have a clue what other citizens of the EU think about our vote,we have little or no stats from any government in the EU regarding this

Are you claiming the EU are funding the Yes campaign in Ireland?

I think some evidence wouldn't go amiss.

K-9

Daftendirekt wrote: »

OP, are you claiming the EU are funding the Yes campaign in Ireland?

I think some evidence wouldn't go amiss.

We know the EU are funding leaflets.

The UKIP ones!

Captain Furball

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Hold on..wait a sec...Lying,cheat,elete?what are you on about?are you posting in the wrong thread??sorry friend but im gonna have to report you to a mod for not staying on topic,did you have a good Arthurs day?i only ask because it sounds like you did

He likes to be different people.
Give him a break he has a long shift.

TheScribbler

At least you guys get the opportunity to vote even if the EU gives you another shot at it because you clearly didn't understand the issues last time around (being ironic). In our case the Blair/Brown Labour Government refused to give the electorate in GB & NI any say on Lisbon and it is hugely unpopular. Roll on Cameron as he has promised to give the public a vote.

imeddyhobbs

Daftendirekt wrote: »

OP, are you claiming the EU are funding the Yes campaign in Ireland?

I think some evidence wouldn't go amiss.

I didn't think this was a secret,what was José Manuel Barroso doing here during the week and who paid for that?

Daftendirekt

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I didn't think this was a secret,what was José Manuel Barroso doing here during the week and who paid for that?

I have no idea. You tell me.

mayordenis

meglome wrote: »

Ah I see anyone who disagrees with you is lying, a cheat, an elite. I dunno, maybe you're just wrong.

Every country in the EU decided what way they wanted to vote on the Lisbon treaty in the manner set out by their laws. We need a referendum, they don't. What right do we have to decide what the rest of the EU wants?

When anyone from the EU suggests that we should vote Yes we are told they are 'bullying us' so are we now bullying the rest of the EU by trying to decide for them?

what are you on about at all?

TheScribbler

There was an interesting take on the impending irish elections given in the Sunday Times a week ago that was suggestive that the Yes campaign was being publicly funded in Ireland. Is this appropriate that taxpayers should be payhing for governemtn publicity to urge the people to say Yes?

K-9

TheScribbler wrote: »

There was an interesting take on the impending irish elections given in the Sunday Times a week ago that was suggestive that the Yes campaign was being publicly funded in Ireland. Is this appropriate that taxpayers should be payhing for governemtn publicity to urge the people to say Yes?

Check out the UKIP intereference.

Seems it's ok when when UKIP are involved.

Daftendirekt

TheScribbler wrote: »

There was an interesting take on the impending irish elections given in the Sunday Times a week ago that was suggestive that the Yes campaign was being publicly funded in Ireland. Is this appropriate that taxpayers should be payhing for governemtn publicity to urge the people to say Yes?

In fairness, without further information we can't really comment.

meglome

mayordenis wrote: »

what are you on about at all?

Too much sense?

thebman

TheScribbler wrote: »

There was an interesting take on the impending irish elections given in the Sunday Times a week ago that was suggestive that the Yes campaign was being publicly funded in Ireland. Is this appropriate that taxpayers should be payhing for governemtn publicity to urge the people to say Yes?

Given we are borrowing that money from the ECB I'd say its very appropriate.

moogester

I'd say thats why the rest of Europe isn't getting a chance to vote in a referendum.......they know damn well that the majority of most countries would vote NO.

Hope & pray
1. Irish people vote NO again
2. Czech president can hold out long enough for a change in govt in the UK & hopefully a referendum on Lisbon here....will just have to trust that the Tories dont go back on their word.

ei.sdraob

moogester wrote: »

I'd say thats why the rest of Europe isn't getting a chance to vote in a referendum.......they know damn well that the majority of most countries would vote NO.

Hope & pray
1. Irish people vote NO again
2. Czech president can hold out long enough for a change in govt in the UK & hopefully a referendum on Lisbon here....will just have to trust that the Tories dont go back on their word.

Referendums are illegal in some countries like Germany

where it was used by Hitler to gain power

how dare you force your beliefs on other countries?

go smell the hypocrisy coming out of your rear

/

faceman

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Intel, Ryanair & Microsoft have made billions out of Ireland and will continue to do so,the truth is that intel,microsoft and ryanair have already let go 100's of staff here in very recent history but yet the bosses of these companys tell us that a yes vote will create jobs...LOL...need i say more about these captains of industry who only care about money

American multinationals employ over 300,000 people in Ireland between the 600 US companies that are based here.

A No vote could, and more likely will be seen as a negative by foreign investors. Up to now, Ireland has been stable, pro-business place to do business. Within Europe, the EU gives Ireland economic stability. There is a perception overseas of Ireland's existing influence in the EU, something that would be further solidified by the permanent (albeit unnecessary) appointment of an Irish Commissionaire. (Remember a No vote means we wont have a commissionaire for a number of years)

moogester

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Referendums are illegal in some countries like Germany

where it was used by Hitler to gain power

how dare you force your beliefs on other countries?

go smell the hypocrisy coming out of your rear

/

I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone - unlike our government

ei.sdraob

moogester wrote: »

I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone - unlike our government

Ya Democracy is being circumvented by an election :eek: :rolleyes:

Popel

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Referendums are illegal in some countries like Germany

where it was used by Hitler to gain power

how dare you force your beliefs on other countries?

go smell the hypocrisy coming out of your rear

/

Eh, not quite true, referendums are completely legal in Germany. They are called Volksentscheid. They are often called for on a stately level though, rather than on a federal level.

ei.sdraob

Popel wrote: »

Eh, not quite true, referendums are completely legal in Germany. They are called Volksentscheid. They are often called for on a stately level though, rather than on a federal level.

and what happens if half the German states vote YES and half vote NO

imeddyhobbs

faceman wrote: »

American multinationals employ over 300,000 people in Ireland between the 600 US companies that are based here.

A No vote could, and more likely will be seen as a negative by foreign investors. Up to now, Ireland has been stable, pro-business place to do business. Within Europe, the EU gives Ireland economic stability. There is a perception overseas of Ireland's existing influence in the EU, something that would be further solidified by the permanent (albeit unnecessary) appointment of an Irish Commissionaire. (Remember a No vote means we wont have a commissionaire for a number of years)

A lot of brackets in there but how n ever..

In 2004 there was a lot of protesting here against the invasion of Iraq by the the united states,most of the people back then said that we should let the US do what they want to do in Iraq,if we opposed them then Ireland would lose jobs because american companys would pull out of Ireland...we did oppose them and we didn't lose any jobs did we?

5 years on we have another situation and the same bull**** about american companys pulling out of here is up on the agenda again,Its simple.. if a company can make money in Ireland then they will stay here,Lisbon has nothing to do with that.

Daftendirekt

Popel wrote: »

Eh, not quite true, referendums are completely legal in Germany. They are called Volksentscheid. They are often called for on a stately level though, rather than on a federal level.

I think specifically, it's illegal to change the German Constitution by referendum.

K-9

How does the Citizens Initiative fit in with all of this?

anonymous_joe

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

A lot of brackets in there but how n ever..

In 2004 there was a lot of protesting here against the invasion of Iraq by the the united states,most of the people back then said that we should let the US do what they want to do in Iraq,if we opposed them then Ireland would lose jobs because american companys would pull out of Ireland...we did oppose them and we didn't lose any jobs did we?

5 years on we have another situation and the same bull**** about american companys pulling out of here is up on the agenda again,Its simple.. if a company can make money in Ireland then they will stay here,Lisbon has nothing to do with that.

And what they're here for is easy access to the EU.

If Ireland appears to be going the same way as the Euro-skeptic Brits, then that's reason to relocate elsewhere.

I am delighted though, to see so many disparate European groups coming together, who would ever have thought that Sinn Féin, UKIP and German neo-Nazis would all be united?

roosh

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Who cares how they would like us to vote? I'll vote in my country for the way I'd like to vote. I don't care if a French guy wants me to vote No or a German wants me to vote Yes.

I think it is cause for concern that they weren't even offered the chance to vote. The two biggest countries in Europe didn't offer their people a chance to vote, and we only have it because treaties Like Lisbon haven't yet superceded our constitution. The exact same will happen to us in the future. The EU will enact legislation with or without our approval. We the people, will have less of a say.

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Intel, Ryanair & Microsoft hire thousands of people in Ireland and invest millions to our economy so I don't think it's unusual that they're interested in the outcome of the Lisbon treaty. How many huge employers want us to vote no?

It's not unusual that they would have an interest, but their motivation has to be questioned. How long will Ireland remain an attractive place for technology multi-nationals, when they can easily relocate to lower cost bases - their loyalty lies to their shareholders, not irish workers.

roosh

meglome wrote: »

How much money are the EU spending exactly? Why would it matter how eother EU country's want us to vote. We are voting in Ireland on what's best for Ireland. They can decide what's best for them in their own country's.

They could if they were given the opportunity to do so perhaps, but they haven't been afforded the same opportunity, so like it or not, we are, in effect speaking for them also.

meglome wrote: »

No it's not interesting. Intel, Ryanair, Microsoft are in Ireland and employ thousands of Irish people.


And sorry who is being silenced exactly? You seem to be able to come in here and talk nonsense all you want.

those countries that weren't allowed to vote on Lisbon are the ones being silenced, and we will fall into that category in the future

roosh

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Most of the EU has ratified this treaty as far as I can tell.

Most of the EU governments, not the people. The people of those countries that ratified the treaty were not offered the chance to vote, the reason being touted is because they would likely have voted No.

This is the approach to politics that will follow after Lisbon

Run_to_da_hills

moogester wrote: »

I'd say thats why the rest of Europe isn't getting a chance to vote in a referendum.......they know damn well that the majority of most countries would vote NO.

Hope & pray
1. Irish people vote NO again
2. Czech president can hold out long enough for a change in govt in the UK & hopefully a referendum on Lisbon here....will just have to trust that the Tories don't go back on their word.

Well said, we did better than the French and Dutch, we had the advantage over them with a second referendum :rolleyes: Democracy????

roosh

meglome wrote: »

Maybe you should ask all the thousands of people they employ. Do you run a business? I do and I think the Lisbon treaty is very good. I don't exploit anyone, I don't cheat anyone, I don't underpay anyone so am I one of these 'elites'?

You people would drag us all back to the stone-age, I just hope that people won't be fooled by all the bull and will vote Yes.

To suggest that Voting No would drag us back to the stone age betrays a lack of understanding. A No vote will change absolutely nothing.

In what way will voting Yes to Lisbon be a positive influence on your business if you don't mind me asking

Scofflaw

mangaroosh wrote: »

Most of the EU governments, not the people. The people of those countries that ratified the treaty were not offered the chance to vote, the reason being touted is because they would likely have voted No.

This is the approach to politics that will follow after Lisbon

The reason being that their constitutions dictate other methods of ratification, just as they have done all along.

By the way, the pose of being at all undecided is now too thin for continued use.

cordially,
Scofflaw

roosh

meglome wrote: »

Every country in the EU decided what way they wanted to vote on the Lisbon treaty in the manner set out by their laws. We need a referendum, they don't. What right do we have to decide what the rest of the EU wants?

That is one of the major issues. It wasn't the people of those countries who decided, they didn't get to vote at all. It was simply ratified by the governments, without any consideration for what the people wanted. If we vote Yes we vindicate this decision to not let the people have a voice and we set a dangerous precedent for how we are willing to allow this country and the union be run in future. If the people of countries like Germany don't get a vote, don't get a say, what makes anyone think that little old Ireland will next time round. Lisbon gives power to the European bodies to amend itself, with absolutely no consulation with the people of Europe.

meglome wrote: »

When anyone from the EU suggests that we should vote Yes we are told they are 'bullying us' so are we now bullying the rest of the EU by trying to decide for them?

The reason it is seen as bullying is because no other country has been allowed to vote, and even though we have voted No, there was already a decision made in Europe, not to recognise that vote. It is effectively an attempt to force us to vote the way they want, becaue there have been no actual changes to the Treaty which we are voting on, and there has been no real attempt to inform us properly on the overall ramifications.


We have to question the motivations of those trying to get us to vote Yes, and those trying to get us to Vote No. Those trying to get us to Vote No are asking us to keep things as they are, those asking us to vote Yes are aksing us to hand over more power to them. If I am going to do this, I want to be fully fully convinced it is the right decision. The fact that they have tried to scare people into this decision suggests that it is the wrong one.