They're Being Wasted!

The Volt

The No side seem to know more about pretty much everything than everyone else.

Worker's rights will suffer they say yet ICTU and IBEC both are pro-Treaty.
Coír's posters advertise that it's bad for farmers but the IFA are pro-Lisbon.
They also blab on about religious matters when the Archbishop of Dublin has stated that a yes vote is not a vote for a abortion.

So by the sounds of things, these people would be far better off actually running the country and the whole of the than just campaigning if they know more on these matters than the experts do :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Captain Furball

They're all getting something that's why they want to support a yes vote.
You hardly think they're doing it for the good of the country do you?

Money money money that's all it is about.....

Dinner

It is really interesting.

When yes voters said a yes vote is better for the economy no voters said prove it.
Yes voters respond by saying that Intel, Microsoft, Ryanair and others are backing this up and all of a sudden they move the goal posts and say 'well it's obvious they have an ulterior motive'.
Yes voters respond by saying that 90% of economists say that a yes vote best serves the state. And no voters will shift the goal posts again dismissing the study as biased or something like that.

It's just impossible to have a decent debate when the goalposts are flying around in circles!

Captain Furball

Dinner wrote: »

It is really interesting.

When yes voters said a yes vote is better for the economy no voters said prove it.
Yes voters respond by saying that Intel, Microsoft, Ryanair and others are backing this up and all of a sudden they move the goal posts and say 'well it's obvious they have an ulterior motive'.
Yes voters respond by saying that 90% of economists say that a yes vote best serves the state. And no voters will shift the goal posts again dismissing the study as biased or something like that.

It's just impossible to have a decent debate when the goalposts are flying around in circles!

Your whole post came down to money, money, money.......
:rolleyes:

moondogspot

Captain Furball wrote: »

They're all getting something that's why they want to support a yes vote.
You hardly think they're doing it for the good of the country do you?

Money money money that's all it is about.....

Exactly. For instance Michael O'Leary seemed to concede in his debate against Ganley that he is

only voting Yes out of self interest.... just like all major business figures.

Dinner

Captain Furball wrote: »

Your whole post came down to money, money, money.......
:rolleyes:

Hey! Where did that goal post go..... I was sure it was here...

Sam Vimes

Captain Furball wrote: »

They're all getting something that's why they want to support a yes vote.
You hardly think they're doing it for the good of the country do you?

Money money money that's all it is about.....

Yes, everyone in Europe is in on the conspiracy except the people who've been against every treaty since we joined the EU and who've made the same nonsense claims about the last two treaties as they have this one, abortion, neutrality, taxation etc. And lets not forget the guy with all the US military contracts, the UKIP whose goal is to dismantle the EU and the German neo-nazis. Oh and the fundamentalist christians and the terrorists, lets not forget them. All these guys have our best interests at heart right?

Captain Furball

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes, everyone in Europe is in on the conspiracy except the people who've been against every treaty since we joined the EU and who've made the same nonsense claims about the last two treaties as they have this one, abortion, neutrality, taxation etc. And lets not forget the guy with all the US military contracts, the UKIP whose goal is to dismantle the EU and the German neo-nazis. Oh and the fundamentalist christians and the terrorists, lets not forget them. All these guys have our best interests at heart right?

How long was that building up inside ? loll relax.
It's all about money that's all im saying.
Just like everything else is.

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

They're all getting something that's why they want to support a yes vote.
You hardly think they're doing it for the good of the country do you?

Money money money that's all it is about.....

Well the social charter will probably end up costing IBEC people more money than they would like. And yes I, unlike some people do believe that certain people have more than their pockets on their minds.

Sam Vimes

Captain Furball wrote: »

How long was that building up inside ? loll relax.
It's all about money that's all im saying.
Just like everything else is.

Firstly, it is in its hole all about money. When people on the no side try to question the motives of the yes side a certain phrase comes to mind involving stones and glass houses

Also, if it is all about money I assume you accept that accepting Lisbon will give these businesses and groups a boost thereby giving the economy a boost, or do you think it's direct bribery going on?

Captain Furball

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Firstly, it is in its hole all about money. When people on the no side try to question the motives of the yes side a certain phrase comes to mind involving stones and glass houses

Also, if it is all about money I assume you accept that accepting Lisbon will give these businesses and groups a boost thereby giving the economy a boost, or do you think it's direct bribery going on?

Why do you go to work?
Why do you take out a mortgage/loan for 300,000?
Why do you get married?
Why do you have kids?

Why do banks exist?
Why do organizations favor a yes vote?
Why is the media pushing a yes vote?
Why is the government pushing a yes vote?

Just pay your taxes.......... That's all your needed for.
Oh and vote yes.....

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

Why do you go to work?
Why do you take out a mortgage/loan for 300,000?
Why do you get married?
Why do you have kids?

Why do banks exist?
Why do organizations favor a yes vote?
Why is the media pushing a yes vote?
Why is the government pushing a yes vote?

Just pay your taxes.......... That's all your needed for.
Oh and vote yes.....

What point are you even trying to make there?

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

What point are you even trying to make there?

It all boils down to money.

The Volt

And voting No is going to change that? And all of the no campaigners care not for a few quid?

4Xcut

Captain Furball wrote: »

Why do you go to work?
Why do you take out a mortgage/loan for 300,000?
Why do you get married?
Why do you have kids?

Why do banks exist?
Why do organizations favor a yes vote?
Why is the media pushing a yes vote?
Why is the government pushing a yes vote?

Just pay your taxes.......... That's all your needed for.
Oh and vote yes.....

Sssh! Big Brother will find us and the rest of the proles. We'll disappear for committing thought crime and it'll be doupleplusungood.

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

And voting No is going to change that? And all of the no campaigners care not for a few quid?

I think voting no is more to do with our kids futures.Not the politicians kids futures.After all it will be the same families over and over again..........

It's not like Europe is throwing us money to vote no now is it?

roosh

Dinner wrote: »

It is really interesting.

When yes voters said a yes vote is better for the economy no voters said prove it.
Yes voters respond by saying that Intel, Microsoft, Ryanair and others are backing this up and all of a sudden they move the goal posts and say 'well it's obvious they have an ulterior motive'.
Yes voters respond by saying that 90% of economists say that a yes vote best serves the state. And no voters will shift the goal posts again dismissing the study as biased or something like that.

It's just impossible to have a decent debate when the goalposts are flying around in circles!

Just because business is backing a Yes vote doesn't mean that it is good for the Irish Economy. The reason businesses are backing it, is because it will give them more power throughout Europe, and continue the trend of favouring big businesses over people. If we vote no it means they don't get this power on a european-wide basis, it means that they retain the same level of power on a european-wide basis.

The question we should be asking is, if we vote No, will businesses leave on account of that. The answer is no. It has nothing to do with Jobs for Irish people. Michael O'Leary almost singlehandedly proved this himself.

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

I think voting no is more to do with our kids futures.Not the politicians kids futures.After all it will be the same families over and over again..........

It's not like Europe is throwing us money to vote no now is it?

You're a bit too quick to forget how long they've been 'throwing money at us' for and where exactly we'd be without that.

meglome

mangaroosh wrote: »

Just because business is backing a Yes vote doesn't mean that it is good for the Irish Economy. The reason businesses are backing it, is because it will give them more power throughout Europe, and continue the trend of favouring big businesses over people. If we vote no it means they don't get this power on a european-wide basis, it means that they retain the same level of power on a european-wide basis.

The question we should be asking is, if we vote No, will businesses leave on account of that. The answer is no. It has nothing to do with Jobs for Irish people. Michael O'Leary almost singlehandedly proved this himself.

What exactly in the the Lisbon treaty favours big business?

Voltwad wrote: »

You're a bit too quick to forget how long they've been 'throwing money at us' for and where exactly we'd be without that.

41 billion Euro to be exact.

Sam Vimes

Captain Furball wrote: »

Why do you go to work?
Why do you take out a mortgage/loan for 300,000?
Why do you get married?
Why do you have kids?

Why do banks exist?
Why do organizations favor a yes vote?
Why is the media pushing a yes vote?
Why is the government pushing a yes vote?

Just pay your taxes.......... That's all your needed for.
Oh and vote yes.....

Oh I see, you've given a big list and implied some connection as if that makes your point less invalid. You didn't answer my question: do you accept that voting yes will help the economy or do you think it,s just straight bribery?

Also, what money is in it for the no side, since its all about money?

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

You're a bit too quick to forget how long they've been 'throwing money at us' for and where exactly we'd be without that.

So you think society has gotten better in the last while ?

roosh

Voltwad wrote: »

You're a bit too quick to forget how long they've been 'throwing money at us' for and where exactly we'd be without that.

The fact that we have prospered under Europe [and are currently faltering I might add], therefore we should vote yes to Lisbon is a logical fallacy - much like the rest of the Yes campaign.

The fact that we developed a lot because of the EU does not mean that we should vote Yes to Lisbon. What we should do is evaluate the Lisbon treaty on its merits and vote accordingly.

The yes campaign has been based on empty rhetoric, logical fallacies and scaremongering. Voting yes would show us to be a laughing stock

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

So you think society has gotten better in the last while ?

Since 1973? yes.

Captain Furball

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Oh I see, you've given a big list and implied some connection as if that makes your point less invalid. You didn't answer my question: do you accept that voting yes will help the economy or do you think it,s just straight bribery?

Also, what money is in it for the no side, since its all about money?

I think voting yes is about money.What do you want to hear it will create jobs? No it won't.Why won't it create jobs?Because pre lisbon we did fine.Until we ****ed the country up............

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

Since 1973? yes.

How many murders a week is there?
How many people on drugs?
How many emphatic people do you meet and talk with?
How many friendly people?
People have turned into **** in this country since the 1970's......
How many idiot kids ?
Our generation are a pack of idiots.
And they're not very nice people these days either.

roosh

meglome wrote: »

What exactly in the the Lisbon treaty favours big business?

http://tara-foundation.org/blog/?p=467

"Intel stands to profit handsomely from Lisbon’s militarisation drive. Intel in particular stands to profit from the further militarisation of Europe which Lisbon drives along. Intel is a manufacturer of key components of military hardware including deadly missiles and guidance systems. The Treaty stipulates that “member states shall undertake to progressively improve their military capabilities” and that a common defence policy “will lead” to common defence, in other words, the creation of an EU combat force.
While militarisation and the primacy of big business may be good reasons for Intel to advocate a yes vote, they are also very clear reasons for ordinary working people to reject this Treaty.


Intel’s selfish motivation in intervening into this debate is crystal clear. A further question that must be asked is the relevance of Intel’s record fine from the European commission of €1.06 billion. Intel is currently appealing this fine to the European Court of First Instance. One wonders whether by spending hundreds of thousands on the Lisbon Treaty they aim to be seen as “good Europeans” and improve their chances in their crucial upcoming case.”


We also know Michael O'Leary's reasons

roosh

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Oh I see, you've given a big list and implied some connection as if that makes your point less invalid. You didn't answer my question: do you accept that voting yes will help the economy or do you think it,s just straight bribery?

Also, what money is in it for the no side, since its all about money?

The thing is, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that voting Yes will be good for the economy. That is simply empty rhetoric by the Yes campaign.

They are trying to get people to vote out of fear, and decisions based on fear are rarely the right ones

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

How many murders a week is there?
How many people on drugs?
How many emphatic people do you meet and talk with?
How many friendly people?
People have turned into **** in this country since the 1970's......
How many idiot kids ?
Our generation are a pack of idiots.
And they're not very nice people these days either.

You may want to think twice about your associates then. Mass generalization there. Alas...

How many murders a week are there? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many people on drugs? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many emphatic people do you meet and talk with? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many friendly people? Nothing to do with Lisbon?


To say that the 41 Billion the EU has given us has caused any of those issues is ridiculous but kudos for solidifying my stance that No campaigners are happy to use straying from the point to get people to agree with them.

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

You may want to think twice about your associates then. Mass generalization there. Alas...

How many murders a week are there? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many people on drugs? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many emphatic people do you meet and talk with? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many friendly people? Nothing to do with Lisbon?


To say that the 41 Billion the EU has given us has caused any of those issues is ridiculous but kudos for solidifying my stance that No campaigners are happy to use straying from the point to get people to agree with them.

My question was.
So you think society has gotten better in the last while ?

And you answered with the above.
Are you even replying to the same topic as i am?

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

To say that the 41 Billion the EU has given us has caused any of those issues is ridiculous but kudos for solidifying my stance that No campaigners are happy to use straying from the point to get people to agree with them.

Let's see now.

41 billion they gave us you say.What about the people we left into our country to work?How many countries did that in the eu 3?

meglome

mangaroosh wrote: »

http://tara-foundation.org/blog/?p=467

"Intel stands to profit handsomely from Lisbon’s militarisation drive. Intel in particular stands to profit from the further militarisation of Europe which Lisbon drives along. Intel is a manufacturer of key components of military hardware including deadly missiles and guidance systems. The Treaty stipulates that “member states shall undertake to progressively improve their military capabilities” and that a common defence policy “will lead” to common defence, in other words, the creation of an EU combat force.
While militarisation and the primacy of big business may be good reasons for Intel to advocate a yes vote, they are also very clear reasons for ordinary working people to reject this Treaty.

They make processors, thery're used in CT scanners as well. How much do Intel make from weapons?

mangaroosh wrote: »

Intel’s selfish motivation in intervening into this debate is crystal clear. A further question that must be asked is the relevance of Intel’s record fine from the European commission of €1.06 billion. Intel is currently appealing this fine to the European Court of First Instance. One wonders whether by spending hundreds of thousands on the Lisbon Treaty they aim to be seen as “good Europeans” and improve their chances in their crucial upcoming case.”

Didn't they just lose their appeal?

Captain Furball

You always answer a question with a question?
I know a guy who does that as well.

roosh

Voltwad wrote: »

You may want to think twice about your associates then. Mass generalization there. Alas...

How many murders a week are there? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many people on drugs? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many emphatic people do you meet and talk with? Nothing to do with Lisbon
How many friendly people? Nothing to do with Lisbon?


To say that the 41 Billion the EU has given us has caused any of those issues is ridiculous but kudos for solidifying my stance that No campaigners are happy to use straying from the point to get people to agree with them.

To be fair though, the Yes campaign is based entirely on scaremongering and lies.

meglome

mangaroosh wrote: »

To be fair though, the Yes campaign is based entirely on scaremongering and lies.

What lies?

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

My question was.
So you think society has gotten better in the last while ?

And you answered with the above.
Are you even replying to the same topic as i am?

I actually answered your question As for the more recent past, anything that has been detremental to Irish Society has not come from elements of the Treaty.

The Volt

mangaroosh wrote: »

The yes campaign has been based on empty rhetoric, logical fallacies and scaremongering. Voting yes would show us to be a laughing stock

Think you mean the no campaign there mate

meglome

Captain Furball wrote: »

You always answer a question with a question?
I know a guy who does that as well.

You see I can claim I'm king of the world but unless I can prove that I'm really king of the world then people will assume I'm just making it up.

So maybe you and your buddy should prove some of what you're saying.

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

I actually answered your question As for the more recent past, anything that has been detremental to Irish Society has not come from elements of the Treaty.

What treaty?
You mean the eec? We both said 1970's Although people didn't become assholes till around the 90's

roosh

meglome wrote: »

They make processors, thery're used in CT scanners as well. How much do Intel make from weapons?

How much do they stand to make

meglome wrote: »

Didn't they just lose their appeal?

In the court of First Instance is it? That's the end of the appeals process I guess!

Captain Furball

meglome wrote: »

You see I can claim I'm king of the world but unless I can prove that I'm really king of the world then people will assume I'm just making it up.

So maybe you and your buddy should prove some of what you're saying.

My buddy?What do you want evidence? :eek:

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

What treaty?
You mean the eec? We both said 1970's Although people didn't become assholes till around the 90's

The one we're voting on next week.

roosh

meglome wrote: »

What lies?

One that jumps out is the campaign poster saying:

"It's simple, I want a strong voice in Europe - Vote Yes"

because voting Yes actually weakens our voting rights and therefore "our voice".

The rest is just empty rhetoric, logical fallacies and scare mongering

Captain Furball

Money ruined our society that's my point.
Lisbon will ruin it even more.

meglome

mangaroosh wrote: »

One that jumps out is the campaign poster saying:

"It's simple, I want a strong voice in Europe - Vote Yes"

because voting Yes actually weakens our voting rights and therefore "our voice".

The rest is just empty rhetoric, logical fallacies and scare mongering

75% of legislation that comes from Europe is negotiated in advance between EU governments. If we give the finger to the EU for bull**** reasons which have nothing to do with the treaty then when we go to negotiate the next time it will be much more difficult for us.

meglome

Captain Furball wrote: »

Money ruined our society that's my point.
Lisbon will ruin it even more.

Voting in ****e government ruined our society. People lying to get elected ruined our society. Maybe you should learn a lesson from that.

Captain Furball

meglome wrote: »

75% of legislation that comes from Europe is negotiated in advance between EU governments. If we give the finger to the EU for bull**** reasons which have nothing to do with the treaty then when we go to negotiate the next time it will be much more difficult for us.

Awwwwww poor ireland....

Captain Furball

meglome wrote: »

Voting in ****e government ruined our society. People lying to get elected ruined our society. Maybe you should learn a lesson from that.

I'm talking about people your talking about how much money you have,

roosh

Voltwad wrote: »

Think you mean the no campaign there mate

Yes to Jobs = Logical Fallacy
Yes to Recovery = Logical Fallacy
We're better with Europe = Logical Fallacy
Stronger voice in Europe = Lie


Voting yes, because we're frightened and can't think logically is what will make us the laughing stock. Its our politicians that will be embarrassed if we vote no, not the people of Ireland. Voting No shows that we aren't going to just have this thing shoved down our throat, because we were too afraid to question those in power. It'll show that we have thought about this, and that we can see when we are being molly coddled.

If we fall for this Mrs.Doyle politics:
sure ye'll vote Yes to Lisbon - erra no Mr.Cowen, we wont - ah go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on

Not only will we become the laughing stocks, we'll become the forgotten ones. "The good ol' Irish, sure if they say no the first time, just ask them again, sure they won't even realise that it means they'll be weakening their position"

The Volt

mangaroosh wrote: »

Yes to Jobs = Logical Fallacy
Yes to Recovery = Logical Fallacy
We're better with Europe = Logical Fallacy
Stronger voice in Europe = Lie


Voting yes, because we're frightened and can't think logically is what will make us the laughing stock. Its our politicians that will be embarrassed if we vote no, not the people of Ireland. Voting No shows that we aren't going to just have this thing shoved down our throat, because we were too afraid to question those in power. It'll show that we have thought about this, and that we can see when we are being molly coddled.

If we fall for this Mrs.Doyle politics:
sure ye'll vote Yes to Lisbon - erra no Mr.Cowen, we wont - ah go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on

Not only will we become the laughing stocks, we'll become the forgotten ones. "The good ol' Irish, sure if they say no the first time, just ask them again, sure they won't even realise that it means they'll be weakening their position"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_mongering


"Minimum Wage after Lisbon €1.84"
"They Won Your Freedom, Don't Throw It Away"
Abortion etc.

Captain Furball

Voltwad wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_mongering


"Minimum Wage after Lisbon €1.84"
"They Won Your Freedom, Don't Throw It Away"
Abortion etc.

Actually they didn't win freedom we're still an occupied country.
So that argument is ****e.

The Volt

Captain Furball wrote: »

Money ruined our society that's my point.
Lisbon will ruin it even more.

I fail to see how. is that a sneak preview of a new poster?