Landrover Discovery II TD5 slow to start...

ploughbynight

I hope someone can help me again.....? Just replaced 5 injectors in my 01 disco, and then a few weeks later I replaced the lift pump oin the diesel tank. Problem is, the DIsco is very slow to start. The engine turns for about 20-30 seconds and may start and then again it may not. Any suggestions. WOuld glow plugs give that symptom,

Slidey

Maybe there is a pin hole in a pipe somewhere and it is letting the diesel back to the tank.

You could try putting it on a can with some new bits of pipe direct to the pump. Bleed it up and get it running on the can. Then leave it for a few hours or as long as you would normally need to to and see if it starts ok.

Heater plugs may cause it but once it is anyway warm it would should start without them

ploughbynight

Thanks for that. It does start ok when it is warm, and the diesel tank was taken off and cleaned out and a new lift pump placed into it. Mechanic told me it was registering 1.8 bar whereas it should be over 3 bar pressure, and that it wasnt priming the system quick enough. I went through it for leaks, because it sounded as if it was taking air somewhere but no luck. I read in one of the LR forums that a slight short in the starter motor can cause an issue with the ECU and engine management system, so when it let me down last night, I tried to toe it to start it, but it made no difference. It started eventually after several hundred metres, which kind of lead me to think it might be glow plugs. With190000 plus miles on it, what is the cut off for spending money on it? its 01 with good body work, with noisey clutch just spent €3K on it. Love driving it and could care less about the age but I want someting I can trust and I have to say LR dealers when you ring them up have a standard response of bring it in. Also LR testbook say I have back left ABS sensor malfunction and SRS sensor under passenger seat. LR say I have to buy whole hub, for abs. sounds crazy....

Slidey

You can check your heater plugs by bring a wire from the positive terminal on the battery and tipping it off the very top part of the exposed plug tip. Look carefully. If you get a spark the plug is working.

If you have a multimeter you can check to see if there is power to the plugs when you turn on the ignition from cold.

TBH, tow starting it should eliminate the need for the plugs as it will be spinning fast enough to fire.

The problem with looking for leaks is that often times it can be drawing air but not leaking diesel so you wont be able to see this

landkeeper

it's nothing to do with the glow plugs it'll start this weather with or without them
td5s are very fussy when it comes to fuel pressure , did you replace the pump with a genuine one or an aftermarket one , if your mechanic is telling you the fuel pressure is down then i'd say that's the problem , can you hear the pump when the engine is running , have you run it very low on fuel recently either , if there is aior in the system the damm things can be hard to /refuse to start , there is a proper purge process that you have to go through to let the ecu know there is a problem

argosy2006

hi, you have to test each heater plug one at a time,, you cant just bring wire from positive terminal on battery and tip it off top of heater plug.. if only one is working you will get the spark,,, you need to remove the link wire between the heater plugs so that they are seperated from eash other,, then you can do what guy above me said,, test them with wire from positive terminal on battery,, tip top of heater plug,, look for spark on each plug one at a time,
it does sound like its the heat plugs,,

Slidey

@argosy

You're right, I am used to Mercs with the individual wires to the plugs

PS, your name from the Freightliners?

ploughbynight

Thanks for the contributions. I have to check the glow plugs first anyway as a process of elimination. The lift pump I put in is a genuine LR one €365 plus vat. The tank was cleaned out. You can hear the pump pumping when you turn on the ignition and even when it is started (now). I usnt to hear it before but then I wasnt listening for it. Sometime you hear what sounds like air in the system when you are starting it (attempting to start) for the first time in the morning.
Glow plugs shouldnt be too expensive UK sites quoted 10stg each plus carriage.
God do I hope its plugs.....

argosy2006

yeps names from freightliner argosy, i like the 110 inch raisedroof 6x4 with cummins signature 600hp plus, with the 18 speed road ranger :eek: shame they dont sell em here,
though i was on to a freigtliner dealer in states, and they aggreed to supply one in righthand drive with all the above for 110000$ (78.600 euro) what a bargain,, that spec here 6x4 with 600hp plus would be 150000 euros or more ,a basic 4x2 scania is 100,000 euros plus vat or there abouts,,

do you know anything about a bmw 525 tds with injector warming light on and power way down,, in safe mode i guess,,, its 1993 tds 525
http://www.resimland.com/data/media/619/frt_lnr_argosy.jpg pic of argosy

landkeeper

you have /are getting air into the system
try this
A special procedure has to be followed if there's air inside the lines:
1. Shut off

2. Wait 15 seconds

3. Turn key to position 2 (contact)

4. Wait 30 seconds

5. Shut off for 5 seconds

Repeat this 4-5 times so the air gets purged out

If you run out of fuel:
1. Floor the right pedal

2. Let the starter turn for 30 seconds

If it did not yet start, wait and let the starter cool down. When the ECM does not detect a running engine after 10rotations of the crank, it goes to purge mode. Now it injects 4 times as much fuel as under maximum conditions allowed. Do use this sequence only when out of fuel as else it risks to drown the engine
your glow plugs are not the problem

emaherx

I had a similar problem with my TD5 Defender.
It turned out to be a small inline gauze before the fuel filter.
It was completely blocked I actually can't believe it started at all.
When you remove the fuel line from the filter it is a grey plastic piece that needs to be pried out with your finger nails cleaned and reinserted.

ploughbynight

Thanks for that. Will try. Just put new glow plugs in, and no difference. At this stage it is porcess of elimination. Talked to a helpful guy in LR dealer Kilkenny and he suggested it may be taking air at the filter housing. Anyhow, the saga continues, any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Crosshair

These use a funny in tank pump arrangement there are 2 stages to the in tank pump(even though it looks like one pump), 1st low pressure feeds the filter, then from the filter returns to the high pressure pump stage in the tank which then sends to the engine. The filter has 4 pipes 1.low press in, 2. low press out, 3. engine return 4. return to tank.
One of those broke my heart earlier this year and it turned out to be injector washers,
Do you have a noise from the pump like a cats miaow (seriously not joking),
Im sending you a pm with my number if you want to give me a ring>

ploughbynight

Thank you Crosshair for the suggestion. I have just tried new washers, and no luck, the disco was struggling to start this morning. I will now take off the filter housing, and see if there is air getting in some how and I think there is a one way valve in it on the pressure side.
So, I have replavced the injectors, new fuel pump, cleaned out fuel tank, pressure tested teh lines, what have I left out. I am correct in saying there is no fuel injector pump? so all that is left is the ecu which is not showing up a fault with teh Test Book.

I am now starting to hate, my previously loved discovery.
I really dont know where to go from here.

elius

ploughbynight wrote: »

Thank you Crosshair for the suggestion. I have just tried new washers, and no luck, the disco was struggling to start this morning. I will now take off the filter housing, and see if there is air getting in some how and I think there is a one way valve in it on the pressure side.
So, I have replavced the injectors, new fuel pump, cleaned out fuel tank, pressure tested teh lines, what have I left out. I am correct in saying there is no fuel injector pump? so all that is left is the ecu which is not showing up a fault with teh Test Book.

I am now starting to hate, my previously loved discovery.
I really dont know where to go from here.

Did you try what landkeeper said above..

Crosshair

There is a different method to purge air from the system on these,
i just glanced over Landkeepers post and assumed it was it but its actuallly
turn on ign
press acc pedal to floor quickly 6 or 7 times or more
Engine management light will flash
you will hear pump cut in and out over period of few mins
This is the proper purge cycle
The fuel pressure can be checked at the head you can remove the fuel temp sensor on the pressure regulator
AFAIK the fuel pressure should be 4 bar,Also have you replaced the injector seals and washers??

ploughbynight

Yes, I have tried what landkeeper sugested, several times, i.e., after I tried something new, such as after I replaced the fuel filter, after I put the new fuel pump in etc.........
Will try it again after I look at the filter housing. Thanks for the interest

landkeeper

you live and lean :rolleyes: that is the procedure i followed when my 2001 started acting the pup and it worked i took it from here http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Td5engine.htm
and passed it on to a couple of lads who were having similar problems and it got them running too


however apparantly they changed the system in the ecu on later models or so i've just found out so let us know if it works

ploughbynight

Needs must.... became a member of landyzone in uk.... found on one of the 5hundred threads on TD5 fuel issues that purging the system is basically, letting the pump, pump. then hitting the accelerator 5 or 6 times send ecu into purge mode. Have patience and repeat and that it could take up to 10 times.
Im not convinced as you could drive from here to cork and no problem so no air in the system so even if you get the air out, you are back to square 1 in the morning.
Other suggestions on landyzone were, oil in ecu plugs, or fuel pressure regulator oir oil in engine ecu harness.........

God am I getting ticked off.... Take my advice dont go on to landyzone if you own a disco.... the number of issues, costly issues is enormous.
Thanks to all for keeping with the thread.

ploughbynight

Just to keep interested people updated. I replaced the filter housing, and while the little gauze was full of dirt, the same issue persists. I have just ordered a fuel pressure regulator valve, if this does not do teh job I dont know what to do.

101sean

Have fun with the fuel pressure regulator, need to be a contortionist to fit it on a Disco apparantly!

If it's not that I don't know what to suggest, replacing bits to eliminate them is costly theses days (it's what dealers do, partly why they're so expensive :mad:)

Hope you get it sorted.

ploughbynight

Talk about a bloody saga!!
I replace dteh fuel pressure regulator valve and hey presto, engine started after being left idle. Mechanic left over night and it started, "happy days" one might think. My mechanic took it for a spin, about 6-7 miles later, it cut out and would not start. When he got it sarted he brought it back and it started again, and then not....
I have rplaced everything bar the ECU. Are there any sensors etc.. that could be sending poor info back to the ECU or is my Disco just posessed by an evil demon fixed on bankrupting me and plcing me in an institution to boot...

OldGuysRule

Not sure whether you have brought it to the main stealer / dealer yet? Might be worth it to read any fault codes or have it connected up while starting / running. I can understand you reluctance to go to a dealer, but sometimes you just have to give in.

ploughbynight

brought it to LR dealer when injectors were being done and no issue at that stage. My mechanic has been in conatct with LR dealers with a view to the continuing issue, i dont think there are any fault codes except for the rear left abs sensor and the srs sensor.

ploughbynight

Now, the latest contribution in my saga is that the engine is starting ok but after about 30-35 minutes it cuts out. Seems to fairly regular I havent talke to mechanic face to face yet but he is now puttingon new pipes from filter housing to injectors, simply because it means we will have replaced everything in the fuel system except the ECU. He cleaned the ecu and put it back but no difference.
GOD, give me patience, in abundance! Any ideas about replacing ECU, is it costly etc...

BeardyGit

http://www.discovery2.co.uk/Injector_harness.html

IMHO, your mechanic should have checked this a long time ago....

Crosshair

IMHO this is the most extreme case of bolt on diagnostics i've come across.
I think you may need to change your "mechanic", as it is probably his lack of experience on similar vehicles that is causing you to have to change one part after another and part with what must be a considerable sum at this stage.
The first thing this needs now is a quick code read, clear whats there from trial/error see does any come back, have a look at live data see is anything out of place, you dont need a dealer for this most mechanics will have something to plug into it.
You need to know whether your problem is fuel or electrical!!
Is the difficult starting gone altogether and if so did fitting something cure it?

ploughbynight

Thank you Gil Dub and Crosshair, and in fairness to my mechanic he was up front with me about not knowing much about LRs. It was me that kept process of elimiation going as I thought the symptoms pointed towards air in the system as opposed to electronics. My poor disco is with LR dealer to get a read out today and I'm told by LR at this stage it is either the ECU or the head is cracked.
Starting out I admit I was nieve now I'm just down alot of money and no further on. My previuos expereince with LR was a process of elimination, and so with my own mechanic and cheap LR parts from UK I felt I was winning to some extent. Thanks again folks

OldGuysRule

While you might have had some difficulties, I would stick with the DII, especially after investing so much in it! I have one and love it. Had done over 35k miles in mine in 21 months and other than a couple of minor issues, it has been perfect.

ploughbynight

When I replaced the injectors I replaced the wiring harness which was oily, but I didnt check the ecu. I have just checke dteh ecu and there was a lot of oil in sockets, so I left it drain out for a while but didnt open it yet. Saw somebody on Landyzone opened there ecu nad it was full of oil. They cleaned it out with compressed air and bit of solvent.

101sean

Get a can of brake cleaner or similar solvent and flush out the ECU socket and the red plug. You'll have to repeat this weekly for a while until the oil stops coming through the loom.

I had the top off my ECU to get the oil out of it but my contamination was so bad I changed the entire engine loom. In most cases regular flushing of the red plug solves the problem.

ploughbynight

LR dealer put a ECU from another discovery and same problems. I am told they have done a pressure test on the head and have deduced it is cracked. I did a bit of searching around and things dont look good from a money perspective. Turner engineering in UK want 1095stg +vat for a new unit.
Can my head be welded and machined or what is the story. I dont want a put in a second hand as I really havbe no appetite for this crack (excuse the pun) again.:mad:

Jonty

ploughbynight wrote: »

LR dealer put a ECU from another discovery and same problems. I am told they have done a pressure test on the head and have deduced it is cracked. I did a bit of searching around and things dont look good from a money perspective. Turner engineering in UK want 1095stg +vat for a new unit.
Can my head be welded and machined or what is the story. I dont want a put in a second hand as I really havbe no appetite for this crack (excuse the pun) again.:mad:

I don't think TD5 heads can be welded.

jwshooter

the head on my td5 defender cracked , 1500 euro it cost me fitted.

give kings 4x4 a ring on it

ploughbynight

I really dont know what to do. I have spent about €3500 so far on it since August. I have no appetite to spend another 1500-2000. Was considering buying another Disco from UK and keeping my own for spares but I dont have the stomach for this either. I will have to do teh clutch in it shortly to so if I do spend the money on it I will be driving it for while to get my money back out of it.
I have one or two head specialists to contact. Will keep you all posted.

ploughbynight

To all of you that kept with my saga. Disco is back on the road and indeed off road. I got the head sorted out with GALA ENGINEERING. A small crack causing all my woes. Anyhow, thats that. Will have to drive for another year to recoup my money.

A sincere thank you to all contributors.:)

Slidey

You are welcome.

Thanks for the update.

Happy motoring!

jwshooter

ploughbynight wrote: »

To all of you that kept with my saga. Disco is back on the road and indeed off road. I got the head sorted out with GALA ENGINEERING. A small crack causing all my woes. Anyhow, thats that. Will have to drive for another year to recoup my money.

A sincere thank you to all contributors.:)

what did it cost you.