24/7 Alliance.

deadwood

This should be of interest to E.S.

This notice appears on the GRA website. I'm sure the other unions and rep. bodies have similar notices which members of other e.s. services might want to post here.


AGSI
GRA
INO
PDFORRA
PNA
ROA
SIPTU

24/7 FRONTLINE SERVICES ALLIANCE
17 September 2009

With the ongoing threats to pay and the negative implications of the McCarthy Report the GRA has joined an alliance with our colleagues in the PNA, POA, INO, PDFORRA, AGSI and SIPTU to highlight the injustice in proposing further cuts for 24/7/365 frontline public servants.

The "24/7 Frontline Services Alliance" will be launched at a press conference on Weds. 23rd September 2009.


The Alliance Group that represents frontline staff that work 24/7/365 believes that recommendations in the McCarthy Report, if implemented, would result in:

- serious deterioration in public services for the community and

- further attacks on the terms, conditions of employment and pay cuts for Garda and other public sector front line workers

Open Regional Information Meetings will be held jointly with our fellow colleagues - nurses, prison officers, defence forces, psychiatric nurses, firemen and ambulancemen as follows:

SLIGO: Mon. 28th September 2009, 8.15 p.m. - Clarion Hotel
For GRA Divisions: Donegal; Sligo/Leitrim; Roscommon/Longford; Mayo; Galway; Cavan/Monaghan & Westmeath.

CORK: Weds. 30th September 2009, 8.15 p.m. - Silver Springs Hotel
For GRA Divisions: Cork City; Cork West; Cork North; Clare; Limerick & Kerry.

KILKENNY: Mon. 12th October 2009, 8.15 p.m. - Hotel Kilkenny
For GRA Divisions: Kilkenny/Carlow; Waterford; Tipperary; Wexford; Laois/Offaly; Garda College & Wicklow.

DUBLIN: Tues. 13th October 2009, 8.15 p.m. - Green Isle Hotel
For GRA Divisions: DMR North; DMR North Central; DMR South; DMR South Central; DMR West; DMR East; Garda Headquarters; SDU; Louth; Meath & Kildare.


All GRA members are urged to attend their regional meeting to collectively highlight the injustice of the McCarthy Report.

johnnyrotten

I heard today that the Dublin meeting is changed to the Helix due to expected capacity

FGR

johnnyrotten wrote: »

I heard today that the Dublin meeting is changed to the Helix due to expected capacity

GRA website has been updated to reflect this change.

Turner

I will most definitely be going to this.

deadwood

Anyone got feedback from the meetings already held?

the locust

I'm workin and can't get it off, dammit!

vasch_ro

maybe we could do a boards meet up afterwards ?

FGR

Looking forward to hearing about it. If the Helix has a good turnout - it will really have a visual impact on the powers that be.

gerire

The reason it was moved to the Helix was because it can hold 1500 whereas the feedback was showing organisers that the 800 capacity in Green Isle would not be enough

beeno67

I have seen the SIPTU posters all over Dublin and I don't understand them. If we assume the government plans to cut pay accross the board by 5%, how will that damage services? Ignoring the fact that a 5% pay cut would actually be an above inflation pay rise, how does decreasing pay worsen services. (Please, please don't respond by saying all public sector workers have taken a 7.5% pay cut already via the pension levy. We all know that is not true in the vast majority of cases)

deadwood

beeno67 wrote: »

(Please, please don't respond by saying all public sector workers have taken a 7.5% pay cut already via the pension levy. We all know that is not true in the vast majority of cases)

Can you expand on this?

beeno67

deadwood wrote: »

Can you expand on this?

Well they are not. Simply as that. Can you show me I am wrong. In otherwords average persons salary after tax relief is not 7.5% lower now. But still the point, how will cutting pay worsen services?

deadwood

beeno67 wrote: »

Well they are not. Simply as that. Can you show me I am wrong. In otherwords average persons salary after tax relief is not 7.5% lower now. But still the point, how will cutting pay worsen services?

Can't argue with that. You were just short of stating "Fact" at the end of your post! Fact.

If you'd like a discussion, you'll have to support these statements.

As for pay cuts worsening services, if you pay peanuts . . .

beeno67

deadwood wrote: »

Can't argue with that. You were just short of stating "Fact" at the end of your post! Fact.

If you'd like a discussion, you'll have to support these statements.

Well as I said if it is not a fact simply show me where I am wrong. You are saying it is not a fact. So show me why.

• According to INO website, only nurses earning over €49500 will have to pay 7.5% pension levy.
• Public service pay has risen since levys introduced
• Huge numbers of public servants get yearly increments (eg, nurses, teachers, gardai).

deadwood wrote: »

As for pay cuts worsening services, if you pay peanuts . . .

But there is an employment embargo at present so unless you are saying public servants are monkeys then that makes no sense. How will paying public servants less make services worse?

Hooch

beeno67 wrote: »

Well as I said if it is not a fact simply show me where I am wrong. You are saying it is not a fact. So show me why.

• According to INO website, only nurses earning over €49500 will have to pay 7.5% pension levy.
• Public service pay has risen since levys introduced
• Huge numbers of public servants get yearly increments (eg, nurses, teachers, gardai).

I pay a pension levy......and I dont earn €49,550 a year. Im down nearly €500 a month.....and I dont work overtime (I like my time off)

Public pay HAS NOT risen since the levys were introduced. They were forzen.

We get increments every year but they are in no way big. We have not gotten the rises promised to us by the state last March and September which worked out at about 5%.

So with the levys plus the raise we were due to get......were down quite alot.

I do believe the private sector are getting fed bullsh1t from the government.

If this becomes another public vs private thread it will be locked

beeno67

nice guy always wrote: »

[/list] I pay a pension levy......and I dont earn €49,550 a year. Im down nearly €500 a month.....and I dont work overtime (I like my time off)

I know you pay a pension levy. My point is that the average person is not paying 7.5%

nice guy always wrote: »

[/Public pay HAS NOT risen since the levys were introduced. They were forzen.

Overall pay & pensions in public service has risen even if in theory pay has been frozen. The main reason for this is pay increaments and some additional employment. Also pension levies did not reduce pensions to retired workers

nice guy always wrote: »

[/We get increments every year but they are in no way big. We have not gotten the rises promised to us by the state last March and September which worked out at about 5%.

So with the levys plus the raise we were due to get......were down quite alot.

Pay increments are important. For example if you get an increament of 3.5% and pay a pension levy of 3.5% then your pay has not been cut. It has simply not gone up as much as you expected it to. That is very different.

My main question though is why should pay cuts worsen services.

Paulzx

nice guy always wrote: »

[/LIST]


If this becomes another public vs private thread it will be locked

I think it already has.

This bloody arguement goes on in every second thread in the politics forum already. As far as i'm aware the Emergency Services forum is not a platform for ES workers to have to justify their wages. The sooner this is locked the better

beeno67

Paulzx wrote: »

I think it already has.

This bloody arguement goes on in every second thread in the politics forum already. As far as i'm aware the Emergency Services forum is not a platform for ES workers to have to justify their wages. The sooner this is locked the better

No one is asking you to justify your wages. I am simply asking for the 4th time how will paycuts worsen services. Liam Doran keeps popping up on radio saying paycuts will worsen services and we have posters all over Dublin saying we need to protect services. Indeed my first post asked people to not keep going on about how they had suffered paycuts already.

I have no problem people saying they do not want paycuts. But I would loke them to do so in an honest way. ie if you cut pay X, Y and Z will happen. I do have a problem with people pretending they want to keep their current levels of pay or else services worsen. SIPTU have a poster with a baby on it which effectively says cut public service pay and the baby gets it. I think it is a disgraceful and dishonest way to go about business.

deadwood

I'm afraid you haven't given any hard evidence to allow anyone here to engage in a meaningful debate.

Your question relates to public service in general, rather than E.S., maybe you might get satisfaction in another thread/forum?

beeno67

deadwood wrote: »

I'm afraid you haven't given any hard evidence to allow anyone here to engage in a meaningful debate.

I am not looking for a debate on this. I keep on saying this. I quoted the INO website as fact. If they are wrong then fine. I don't really care. Although the INO is a member of 24/7 alliance. You are the one who keeps going on about it. You are the one who asked me to expand on pay issues. For the last time I am not looking for a debate on pay.

deadwood wrote: »

Your question relates to public service in general, rather than E.S., maybe you might get satisfaction in another thread/forum?

The point is, I am responding to a post by you about the 24/7 alliance. If it is not relevant to emergency services then why post it here. Indeed if you google "24/7 Alliance" and click "I'm feeling lucky" you get this thread. 24/7 alliance claims it is about protecting public services. The reality is that if people really want to protect public services then the logical argument should be "cut pay, protect services".

bo-bo

beeno67 wrote: »

I am not looking for a debate on this. I keep on saying this. I quoted the INO website as fact. If they are wrong then fine. I don't really care. Although the INO is a member of 24/7 alliance. You are the one who keeps going on about it. You are the one who asked me to expand on pay issues. For the last time I am not looking for a debate on pay.



The point is, I am responding to a post by you about the 24/7 alliance. If it is not relevant to emergency services then why post it here. Indeed if you google "24/7 Alliance" and click "I'm feeling lucky" you get this thread. 24/7 alliance claims it is about protecting public services. The reality is that if people really want to protect public services then the logical argument should be "cut pay, protect services".

quite simply, i view my pay as a reward versus the risks i take doing my job.

if my pay is lowered, so is the level of risk im willing to take. for years gardai, nurses, firemen, paramedics et al have been taking risks far and above what is expected of them. they have kept the services they provided buoyant by doing this.

let me give you a very practical example.

in my distict, we are often left in the situation where there is no observer in a patrol car. at a conservative guess and based on personal experience im going to say this accounts for 20% of the time. the driver of the said patrol car will always continue on attending calls on his or her own, compelled by nothing more than a sense of duty. now if pay is cut any more, do you seriously expect my colleagues or i to take risks by being isolated for 20% of the time.

im glad we have the support of the general public, but im tired of being apologetic to the willfully ignorant.

deadwood

beeno67 wrote: »

..... But still the point, how will cutting pay worsen services?

beeno67 wrote: »

.... For the last time I am not looking for a debate on pay.

Which will it be?:D

I posted the meeting scedule to inform e.s. posters, as most are public sector and form part of the "Frontline". The 24/7 alliance represents this section of the public sector. In my experience over the last year(s), the vast majority of people who, while sucked in by the government spin about public sector pay, agree that front line services (i.e. your guards, nurses, doctors, teachers, carers etc...) should not suffer. The target for cuts should lie at the heart of the, almost, Stalinist beaurocracy which has tangled your public service in red tape and wasteful practices for years - HSE, FAS, unvouched expenses . . . . . ..

People are acting like this waste has only been discovered by plucky journalists in recent months. Those of us working in these areas have seen the wasteful policies which exist in our services at the expense of a first class service paid for by you. We have been pointing out this waste to deaf ears since long before any celtic tiger came along. Unfortunately our hands are tied to a large degree as far as going public is concerned, so we need an alliance like this so our voice will be heard.

Yes, we need cuts. We've always needed cuts. However, when these cuts are decided on by some folder wielding desk jockey or a party hack quango recommending the formation of another committee, who'll serve their own interests first, and hit front line services to be seen to take firm action, the Deadwood gears get a robust grinding.

I'm going to be accused of being serious again.

wreckless

http://vimeo.com/6985236

new video up

Smokey Bear

Some info below might answer your question beeno67
http://www.7stepstotransform.ie/home.php

gerire

So who is actually going tonight?
What was the attendance like at the other nights?

bo-bo

gerire wrote: »

So who is actually going tonight?
What was the attendance like at the other nights?

full house in kilkenny last night

mcguiver

Well,
full house in the Helix last night. I'm still undecided if that was a good turnout, when you think of the amount of proffessions that were represented.

Bit of a wishy washy meeting I'm afraid.
Speaker from each union/staff association except for PDFORRA, who are not allowed attend. (An ex-PDFORRA member did speak though) Each speaker spoke about the proposed cutbacks and their feelings about present government etc. This was followed by opening the meeting to speakers from the floor. Each got up and more of the same really.
No suggestions or proposals for what possible stance will be taken by 24/7 alliance, or where we go from here.
Meeting could have done with less of stating what we know and more of what do we/can we do now?

What did the rest of ye think of it??

P.S if you were not on duty and didnt go you are not allowed moan about cutbacks etc ever again.

zero 1

Under the 2016 agreement we committed ourselves to modernisation,productivity and flexible work practices ie. using technology, extended hours, expanding our skill base, Partnership etc. If our pay is cut further we will have to reconsider all these agreed and very successful work practices. We know if there is a rollback of this agreed flexibility,productivity then the overall service to the public will suffer greatly. We will also have to consider a more robust response and directly defend our wages and conditions of employment. Why should we be the only targets for cuts , why should we shoulder the burden of debt created by others, who are still receiving multiples of our yearly salary as bonusses.
A word of thanks to all the speakers in the Helix last night, you all shone brilliantly, well done.

gerire

mcguiver wrote: »

P.S if you were not on duty and didnt go you are not allowed moan about cutbacks etc ever again.

QFT

I was there and figures reported were at aprox 1300; Also questioning if that is a good turnout;

Everyone was saying the exact same thing and tbh it was all just a case of preaching to the choir, no one there was there was objecting to anything that was going to be said;
It was more of a rally than a constructive meeting;
As you said nothing will have come from the meeting and we are no clearer in which way the "alliance" will go from here; I do hope it is a success and some action does come from it; Still very unclear from the GRA rep, what or where Gardaí can go from here

mcguiver

Realistically what can emergency services/health services do to show their feelings on the cuts (salary and otherwise).

Lets be honest, no nurse or health worker will watch a patient suffer.
No prison warden is going to walk away from their post.
No ambulance crew/garda/firefighter or paramedic is going to let a call for help go unanswered.
The military are not going to refuse to do a rescue/protect us or or united nations neighbours from danger.

Thats the kind of people we are. Our actions each day are the actions of people who actually care about the public, and we carry out our duty with minimal resources and spport. The powers that be know this. Any form of strike action/work to rule etc. would cause suffering to those most in need.
Who cares if thousands stand outside the Dail or make speeches.

brayblue24

mcguiver wrote: »

Well,
P.S if you were not on duty and didnt go you are not allowed moan about cutbacks etc ever again.

+1 and shame on you if you didn't bother going if you could have. One aim should be to address the public/private divide the spin doctors have invented.

Also-new found respect for Liam Doran particularly. Well done,sir.

fattestman

There are rumours doing the rounds here in Cork that there'll be no strikes around the city tomorrow on account of the floods.

Anyone know anything about this?

fattestman

fattestman wrote: »

There are rumours doing the rounds here in Cork that there'll be no strikes around the city tomorrow on account of the floods.

Anyone know anything about this?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1123/partnership.html

nursextreme

Just over two years since the last post but The 24/7 Alliance is back being mentioned again in relation to proposed budget cut in premium pay.

pa990

unfortunately i dont see the 24/7 alliance having any teeth, not much as been achieved by them imo

The Gardai (and the GRA) are restricted in what they can say or do due to 'An Garda Siochana Act 2005' http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/index.html
and i believe that the GRA stated that there would not be another BlueFlu.
The Nurses wont allow sick and eldery to suffer.
The FireService will just be replaced by the Army if they strike
And noone cares about the Prison Service, because it doesnt directly affect them.

so what happens... Nothing

coolhandluke

nursextreme wrote: »

Just over two years since the last post but The 24/7 Alliance is back being mentioned again in relation to proposed budget cut in premium pay.

There is no budget proposal to cut premium pay for existing public servants, possibly for new entrants, but that is what the croke pk agreement is supposed to achieve. Property is roughly 50% cheaper than it was 5 years ago, so i certainly won't be starting a fight to maintain new entrants allowances at their current levels.

nursextreme

coolhandluke wrote: »

There is no budget proposal to cut premium pay for existing public servants, possibly for new entrants, but that is what the croke pk agreement is supposed to achieve. Property is roughly 50% cheaper than it was 5 years ago, so i certainly won't be starting a fight to maintain new entrants allowances at their current levels.

So you don't mind a two tier pay system being implemented as long as you are protected by the Croke Park Agreement, let the next generation pick up the tab. Everyone should lose a percentage of their premium if it arises not just new entrants when there is a moratorium on recruitment still in place.

Delancey

Only yesterday I was chatting to a neighbour who was giving out yards about the state the country is in ( nothing new there ).
In relation to Garda pay and benefits he was bitterly complaining about the fact that Guards and their families ( spouses and children ) are entitled to , wait for it....... free GP visits and free prescriptions !

I suggested to him that he was wrong and perhaps he was confusing a benefit available to members of Garda Medical Aid ( expensive subscriptions I believe ) as opposed to something paid for by the Dept of Justice , no way was he wrong though - he was told by a fella he knows whose cousin in married to a Garda- so there

Where does this mis-information start ?

goldie fish

Delancey wrote: »

Only yesterday I was chatting to a neighbour who was giving out yards about the state the country is in ( nothing new there ).
In relation to Garda pay and benefits he was bitterly complaining about the fact that Guards and their families ( spouses and children ) are entitled to , wait for it....... free GP visits and free prescriptions !

I suggested to him that he was wrong and perhaps he was confusing a benefit available to members of Garda Medical Aid ( expensive subscriptions I believe ) as opposed to something paid for by the Dept of Justice , no way was he wrong though - he was told by a fella he knows whose cousin in married to a Garda- so there

Where does this mis-information start ?

The Indo, Joe duffy, Jealous neighbours.
I must get onto the DoJ actually. I think I'm entitled to back pay. Seems I should have been earning night and sunday rate while I was on leave.....

coolhandluke

nursextreme wrote: »

coolhandluke wrote: »

There is no budget proposal to cut premium pay for existing public servants, possibly for new entrants, but that is what the croke pk agreement is supposed to achieve. Property is roughly 50% cheaper than it was 5 years ago, so i certainly won't be starting a fight to maintain new entrants allowances at their current levels.

So you don't mind a two tier pay system being implemented as long as you are protected by the Croke Park Agreement, let the next generation pick up the tab. Everyone should lose a percentage of their premium if it arises not just new entrants when there is a moratorium on recruitment still in place.

People who joined before me have better conditions than me, people who joined after me have worse conditions than me, people who join from now on will have worse conditions than them, this is the way things are done.
The next generation will not be picking up any tab, they will simply be choosing to join a job that pays a certain rate at the time of joining, which is more than can be said for existing members.

Hooch

Delancey wrote: »

Only yesterday I was chatting to a neighbour who was giving out yards about the state the country is in ( nothing new there ).
In relation to Garda pay and benefits he was bitterly complaining about the fact that Guards and their families ( spouses and children ) are entitled to , wait for it....... free GP visits and free prescriptions !

I suggested to him that he was wrong and perhaps he was confusing a benefit available to members of Garda Medical Aid ( expensive subscriptions I believe ) as opposed to something paid for by the Dept of Justice , no way was he wrong though - he was told by a fella he knows whose cousin in married to a Garda- so there

Where does this mis-information start ?

The state do pay for Garda GP visits, however medical aid (which is the most expensive plan on the market) pays for everything else.

In regards where it starts.....what goldie said

johnnyrotten

pa990 wrote: »

unfortunately i dont see the 24/7 alliance having any teeth, not much as been achieved by them imo

The Gardai (and the GRA) are restricted in what they can say or do due to 'An Garda Siochana Act 2005' http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0020/index.html
and i believe that the GRA stated that there would not be another BlueFlu.
The Nurses wont allow sick and eldery to suffer.
The FireService will just be replaced by the Army if they strike
And noone cares about the Prison Service, because it doesnt directly affect them.

so what happens... Nothing

The Army do not have the trained personnel or equipment to "replace" the Fire Service.

Rawhead

Looks like the winds are changing with regards the CPA. I've a feeling that it will come under severe pressure in the new year and can't see it surviving.
There is bugger all we'll be able do about it either, the public would lynch anyone brave/foolish enough to go on strike.

With regards the paid GP visits, your neighbour was correct about that one though.

pa990

johnnyrotten wrote: »

The Army do not have the trained personnel or equipment to "replace" the Fire Service.

they mighnt be able to fully replace them, but they will could and have in the past provided cover during a strike,
just like a Gardai have covered the prison services during their strikes

Delancey

Wow , paid GP visits - that IS a nice perk especially if you have children.

pa990

Delancey wrote: »

Wow , paid GP visits - that IS a nice perk especially if you have children.

only free GP visits for the Garda.. not for his/her family

Delancey

Well at least I can see how my neighbour got the idea that Guards and families got these freebies.

I couldn't believe that he had it right but he was insistent , thanks for clarifying.

coolhandluke

Rawhead wrote: »

Looks like the winds are changing with regards the CPA. I've a feeling that it will come under severe pressure in the new year and can't see it surviving.
There is bugger all we'll be able do about it either, the public would lynch anyone brave/foolish enough to go on strike.

With regards the paid GP visits, your neighbour was correct about that one though.

Just because the sindo/indo writes article after article about the CPA and how good we all have it, doesn't mean this is actually the case. If the govt was going to scrap the CPA then they might as well do it now as what's the point.
I doubt anyone will be going on strike, but any reneging on the CPA by the govt would result in an immediate end to any and all reforms under the CPA, personally i'm not bothered as it's a lose lose either way.