Difference in weight training for muscle gain and fat loss

floggg

So what is the basic differences in approach one should take when training for muscle gain or strength versus weight training for fat loss.

if basic concept behind weight training for fat loss is that by weight training you stimulate muscle growth, leading to increased metabolism, which combined with a moderate calorific deficit will lead to fat loss, then surely the best results would be from plans which promote the best muscle growth. And surely such plans are also the same plans one would use when trying to increase strength or muscle mass, albeit without the corresponding increase in calorie and protein consumption.

So i guess my question is, what differences in approach should one take to a weights program itself for each of these goals and why?

Also, to what extent should factors such as the differences in diet and protein intake, rest periods and level of cardio training involved in each of the two different goals cause you to modify or adapt your program as well?

celestial

floggg wrote: »

So what is the basic differences in approach one should take when training for muscle gain or strength versus weight training for fat loss.

if basic concept behind weight training for fat loss is that by weight training you stimulate muscle growth, leading to increased metabolism, which combined with a moderate calorific deficit will lead to fat loss, then surely the best results would be from plans which promote the best muscle growth. And surely such plans are also the same plans one would use when trying to increase strength or muscle mass, albeit without the corresponding increase in calorie and protein consumption.

So i guess my question is, what differences in approach should one take to a weights program itself for each of these goals and why?

Also, to what extent should factors such as the differences in diet and protein intake, rest periods and level of cardio training involved in each of the two different goals cause you to modify or adapt your program as well?

Short answer is to train for hypertrophy not strength because you will (maybe) build more muscle and can possibly work at a higher intensity than you would with heavy weights and so will burn more calories. That's why I suggested the programme I did over on the other thread. You also won't be as fatigued with somewhat lighter weights and so will be able to recover quicker and get more work done overall.

The right answer, though, is that there a LOT of different variables to consider but none of them really matter anyway and you are over-thinking it!! Just get in the gym and get sweating with a good programme.

Nate--IRL--

My understanding is that unless you are a beginner training with weights, you will not gain muscle mass on a calorie deficit diet. You will maintain muscle mass at best. Also note that strength doesn't always equal muscle mass.

Personally I don't believe there is such a thing as weight training for fat loss. You diet for fat loss, in conjunction with physical activity. You train with weights to get stronger. This along with the diet (deficit/surplus) will determine the amount of muscle gained/maintained/lost.

For me there are no major differences in my weight program when either in calorie surplus or deficit. It is still a 4 day split of mostly compounds at 3x8. However the rate of progress is much reduced, in the amount of weight lifted, in deficit. When switching back to surplus the increase in strength is very notable.

In short fat loss and weights, after the initial beginners phase, it is all about the diet. A good diet and a deficit or surplus of calories to meet your goal.

Nate

Mellor

floggg wrote: »

if basic concept behind weight training for fat loss is that by weight training you stimulate muscle growth, leading to increased metabolism, which combined with a moderate calorific deficit will lead to fat loss,

The problem is, that isn't the concept behind weight training for fat loss.
That's the idea that thrown around alot by people who don't know what they are talking about.
As said, except for noob gains and case were there is alot of fat to shift, you won't build muscle on a deficit.

The concept behind weight training for fat loss is that weight training uses significant calories.

floggg

Mellor wrote: »

The problem is, that isn't the concept behind weight training for fat loss.
That's the idea that thrown around alot by people who don't know what they are talking about.
As said, except for noob gains and case were there is alot of fat to shift, you won't build muscle on a deficit.

The concept behind weight training for fat loss is that weight training uses significant calories.

Well "growth" may be an over simplification of the concept, but I always thought calories were used in weight training not necessarily by the actual lifting itself, but by the fact that weight lift causes muscle break down and repair, which in turn uses up the calories.

Also, i know you don't gain much by way of muscle/strength, but you do gain. Even on a calorie deficit, i have never done weight training over an period of time and not experienced some (slow but) steady improvements in strength which i can only imagine is done to muscle growth.

ragg

Alwyn cosgrove, recommends a circuit based approach to weights - followed by intervil cardio.

Its copyrighted from his book "afterburn" but ill stick up an example - if mods have a problem they can edit the post

Order Exercise Sets Reps Tempo Rest
A1 Deadlift 4 10 211 0s
A2 Explosive Push Up 4 10 221 0s
A3 Bulgarian Split Squat 4 10 each 221 0s
A4 Two point Db Row 4 10 each 221 60s

B1 Deadlift off box 2 20 201 0s
B2 DB Bench Press 2 20 201 0s
B3 Bulgarian Split Squat 2 20 each 201 0s
B4 Seated Cable Row 2 20 each 201 60s
C Hanging Leg raise 2 10 212 60s
Note:
A1, A2, A3 etc are supersets. Perform one set of each exercise in a circuit format, until you have
completed all the work sets.
Tempo refers to lifting speed. The first number is lowering, the second is pausing in the bottom
position, and the third is lifting. So a 422 tempo would be a 4 second lowering, a 2 second pause and
a 2 second lift.

This is one of the more advanced methods in his book - I have started adding it one day a week - in place of my HIIT day. Time will tell....

But he swears by an circuit approach to weight training for fat loss
Also, you do each circuit 4 times

Mellor

floggg wrote: »

Well "growth" may be an over simplification of the concept, but I always thought calories were used in weight training not necessarily by the actual lifting itself, but by the fact that weight lift causes muscle break down and repair, which in turn uses up the calories.

Maybe you didn't mean actual growth, but thats how it sounded. And that's what some people believe. so I was just clearing it up in the interest of newbies.

Also, i know you don't gain much by way of muscle/strength, but you do gain. Even on a calorie deficit, i have never done weight training over an period of time and not experienced some (slow but) steady improvements in strength which i can only imagine is done to muscle growth

Nope. Muscle growth requires excess calories. If they aren't there you can't grow. (There are a few situations I believe, but they are unique cases)

However, your assumption that muscle growth=strength growth is wrong. The two are obviously related, bigger muscles means bigger lifts, not not directly or exclusively. Its possible to get stronger without increasing muscle mass, especially starting out. Technique alone will improve lifting.

beegirl

I'm no expert on this, first of all, but... I have been reading this e-book 'Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle' which is written by a body builder. He says that you are either in a fat-loss phase or a muscle-building phase - it is very unlikely that you can do both at the same time.

As far as I can tell from the book, the main difference between the two phases is whether you are running a calorie deficit or a calorie surplus. He doesn't actually recommend different exercises in either phase as far as I know! Must read that part again...

Also he says that for fat loss you still need to do the weights - even though you may not be building muscle - as you are still trying to maintain your current muscle mass. Cardio+diet+weights = killer fat loss combination Hehehe, or something like that anyway :rolleyes:

Magic Eight Ball

Mellor wrote: »

Its possible to get stronger without increasing muscle mass

Story of my life!!

eroo

floggg wrote: »

So i guess my question is, what differences in approach should one take to a weights program itself for each of these goals and why?

Also, to what extent should factors such as the differences in diet and protein intake, rest periods and level of cardio training involved in each of the two different goals cause you to modify or adapt your program as well?

When weight training for muscle gain(growth), rep ranges of 6-10 with heavy weights(75-85% 1RM) and a calorie surplus diet will get results, using plenty of protein, carbs(mainly pre and post workout) and sufficient amount of fat. Compound lifts and free weight exercises are essential.. do not use machine weights unless training a very specific muscle or if you are nursing an injury.

If your training for fat loss then rep ranges of 8-12 with heavy weights will do you good. Using a calorie deficit diet will help with the fat loss, but it is ESSENTIAL you get protein into your body to aid repair and prevent your body from breaking down muscle tissue(around 2g protein per kilo of bodyweight). This diet and training plan will NOT result in muscle growth. Muscles have to be forced to grow. In this plan, you are merely strengthning the muscles and repairing them after a session. For muscle growth you are strengthning them to a good degree but you are focusing on repairing them so they grow, not just to maintain them.. hence the calorie surplus.

Cardio should be very light when training for muscle growth. Use a stationery bike for two 20 minute sessions a week would suffice to help keep a baseline of fitness. The bike will be easier on your muscular system too, which is good!
When training for fat loss, 3 runs a week ranging from 30-40 minutes would be good.

sfag

floggg wrote: »

q1. So what is the basic differences in approach one should take when training for muscle gain or strength versus weight training for fat loss.

q2. So i guess my question is, what differences in approach should one take to a weights program itself for each of these goals and why?

q3. Also, to what extent should factors such as the differences in diet and protein intake, rest periods and level of cardio training involved in each of the two different goals cause you to modify or adapt your program as well?

q1 chasing two rabbits at the one time is not to be attempted by beginners. You need a specifically designed diet and routine prepared by a professional. Easier to do one first and the other second. Probably diet down first.

q2. I paid for such advice. Asthetics were the priority. The diet consisted of general good nutrition - 8 meals a day. specific weights.

q3. the routine recommended to avoid cardio (for obvious reasons). walk on empty before brekie. if you do cardio you have to fuel up before and after to avoid muscle loss.

my split was 4 times a week. reps 12 - 6. The usual compound movements plus a specific arms day.


did it work for me - no - I couldnt stick to the exact proportion sizes or cardio ban. For me - to lsoe fat - I have to eat less and let my weights drop as I get a little weaker.

I'd still say it was good advice.

sfag

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

My understanding is that unless you are a beginner training with weights, you will not gain muscle mass on a calorie deficit diet. You will maintain muscle mass at best. Also note that strength doesn't always equal muscle mass.

Personally I don't believe there is such a thing as weight training for fat loss. You diet for fat loss, in conjunction with physical activity. You train with weights to get stronger. This along with the diet (deficit/surplus) will determine the amount of muscle gained/maintained/lost.

For me there are no major differences in my weight program when either in calorie surplus or deficit. It is still a 4 day split of mostly compounds at 3x8. However the rate of progress is much reduced, in the amount of weight lifted, in deficit. When switching back to surplus the increase in strength is very notable.

In short fat loss and weights, after the initial beginners phase, it is all about the diet. A good diet and a deficit or surplus of calories to meet your goal.

Nate

agree with the above.
at best one will try to maintain muscle but not grow it whilst dieting down.
still worth doing the weights though over and above cardio imo as its an interesting & rewarding form of exercise. Thats my preference.

shud add - if one does a bit of a run before the weights then the whole weights session becomes more of a a calorie burning sess.

Zamboni

floggg wrote: »

So what is the basic differences in approach one should take when training for muscle gain or strength versus weight training for fat loss.

Personally speaking I would train the same for both.
Whether you're training to maintain muscle mass during fat loss or build muscle tissue you still have to overload the tissue.
It's the diet that changes dramatically.

randomguy88

While we're on this topic, I'v been meaning to ask. What happens to your body when you're getting stronger, yet losing weight simultaenously? Iv started the program Im currently doing about six weeks ago. I weighed 85 kg then and wanted to lose fat/burn muscle at the same time. Iv been doing Stronglifts 5x5 and my lifts have flown up. Im setting new records each week on every exercise, yet I weigh 1 kg less than when I started. Does this make sense? I look the exact same aswell! I really want to maintain this weight but get more shredded. Thought by eating healthy and getting stronger I would achieve this, but seemingly not. Any help?

My diet is usually six meals a day, 30g protein in each meal with lots of complex carbs too then with good fats later on in the day.

sfag

if your diet was so finely tuned that you got the absolute max nutrition, perfectly balanced and timed to just about meet your calorie needs then you probably could grow muscle and lose the fat - but there is a lot of if's in there.

Its normal when you begin a program - assuming you are a beginner - to get stronger despite dieting down - its just your muscles becoming aclimatised and your technique improving. Its unlikely to last for ever.

floggg

For the record, i never said i was trying to do both! I was simply trying to understand the difference between the two approaches (or if there should be a difference in the first place).

From what some people are saying at least, there is no difference in the actual training itself, its the diet, recovery and cardio that differs.