The Lisbon Treaty for Dummies

tman76

Sam Vimes wrote: »

http://www.talktoeu.ie/en/Policy-Areas/Fisheries/

* Have catches in Irish waters fallen over the years?
No. The total volume of fish caught in Irish waters rose from 160,000 tonnes in 1954 to 530,000 in 2004.
* Is it true that foreign fleets have taken €200 billion worth of fish from Irish waters?
No. The total value of fish taken from Irish waters between 1974 and 2004 was about €8.5 billion. This figure includes fish caught by both foreign and Irish boats.
* Are Irish boats catching more fish than they used to?
Yes. Irish boats have doubled their catch since we joined the EU. In 2007, our boats caught 185,000 tonnes, up from 86,000 tonnes in 1973. This includes fish caught both in Irish waters and elsewhere. Furthermore, Irish boats now catch about 25% of the fish caught in Irish waters, up from an average of 16% in the 1970s, when we joined the EU.

I dont have time to keep repeating the same FACTUAL figures to people like you who havent a clue - go print off the figures you just pulled out of your arse and I'll give you a list of fishermen in any port around Ireland you can bring them too and you can see how you get on - so put your money where your mouth is

marco_polo

tman76 wrote: »

I'm the letter writer and I replied to you in Mondays Metro and I'll reply to you yet again - I'm far from deluded, as I've spent many years researching this and can back everything up with facts - which you can read below - so you lived in Norway for five years, and what?? you have no idea what youre talking about either I suggest you read the 2007 report from the Dept of Marine and Natural Resources or actually turn your TV off for 2 seconds and take a trip to Mayo to see whats going on down there - I wouldnt call you delusional, just an ignoramus

Hi, thats actually my letter, I'm currently working on a documentary on the fishing industry and have met with scores of fishermen up and down the country - the best advice I can give you is go to your local harbour or port and ask them about the Common Fisheries Policy which is what Ireland was forced to sign in 1973 in order to join the EEC (or just look at the rusting decommissioned trawlers and the lack of activity). We currently have 4% of the quota of fish that is caught in our own waters where as the Portuguese, Spanish, French, Germans etc and catch the other 96%.
In 1973 Ireland had over 50,000 fishermen today we have just over 2,300...and for every 1 fisherman at sea there's normally around 4 people on land working, processing the fish, building boats, manufacturing all the equipment such as nets etc...The figure of a 200 billion loss is extremely conservative - but the fact of the matter is Irelands International Waters are around 12 times the size of her landmass - our real wealth lies under our waters and we have signed these rights away to foreign unelected rulers.....And every Irish fisherman is continually harrassed by the Irish Navy - a huge number have criminal records for simply fishing the seas their ancestors have for hundreds of years....just look up the case of Cliona Conneelly for an example.....
In terms of the oil and gas wealth - the Dept of Marine & Natural Resources did a report in 2007 and they estimated we have over 130 billion barrels of oil and 50 trillion cubic feet of gas...that would mean we are one of the wealthiest oil and gas nations on the planet - which is why Shell are building massivie refineries in Mayo and Donegal...
The real issue here is the massive cover up by all our media agencies leaving the public totally unaware of the outright robbery taking place on this island - which is why we will have hundreds of people queueing for check out jobs in Marks and Spencers and the like for decades to come

Sam has covered the rest but our Exclusive Economic Area is approximately 410,310 sq km. As the areas of the republic is 70,273 sq m this is less than 6 times the land area.

K-9

tman76 wrote: »

Are you aware of the 4% quota that Ireland has - are you aware of the total yearly value of the catch? If we're losing 96% of billions every year then how much do you think that amounts to going back to 1973...??

If you can come up with 8.5 billion then you should apply to Shells creative accounting department

By the way this is not including the 48,000 fishermen that have lost their jobs since then and the thousands more in related industries....which would give a far higher figure

That 4% applies to all EU waters if I recall correctly, not just Irish waters.

Sam Vimes

tman76 wrote: »

I dont have time to keep repeating the same FACTUAL figures to people like you who havent a clue - go print off the figures you just pulled out of your arse and I'll give you a list of fishermen in any port around Ireland you can bring them too and you can see how you get on - so put your money where your mouth is

www.talktoeu.ie doesn't look much like my arse

Sam Vimes

It was 600 billion the other day from a texter into newstalk. That's the thing about a made up figure, it varies depending on who's giving it

marco_polo

Sam Vimes wrote: »

www.talktoeu.ie doesn't look much like my arse

Which they got from here

Sam Vimes

marco_polo wrote: »

Which they got from here

But you shouldn't let a little thing like facts get in the way of a good documentary.

Scofflaw

In 1970 there were almost certainly not more than 50,000 people employed in the Irish fishing industry. A figure of 52,600 can be found in the 1970 census as gainfully employed in "other agricultural occupations and fishermen", where "other agricultural occupations" covers everything not covered by "farmers, farmers' relatives, and farm managers", the only other agricultural category - and that may be where the figure comes from.

However, a more detailed search of the same 1970 census gives a figure specifically for fishermen - which is 2,790 (2,787 men, 3 women) for 1970. You'll find that in table 2 (page 16 of the PDF, or here).

Here's the employment history of the Irish fleet:

Year|Employment
1926|5,753
1936|4,385
1946|3,647
1951|2,775
1961|2,475
1966|2,292
1971|2,790
1981|2,992
1986|3,078
1991|3,332
2002|6,100 (OECD figure)


Now, perhaps years of research would make one think something different, but that looks to me like a very small industry, one that was in decline before EEC accession, and one that is expanding, not shrinking. It's slightly hard to tell on the last point, because the 1991 CSO census was the last one that specifically enumerates fishermen, at least in the available data.

if we go over to anecdotal material, we find the following from Tim Pat Coogan:

So what caused the difficulties I encountered in trying to salvage the trawlers.? Inefficiency? Arrogance? Wastefulness? The fact that some cute hoor deal had been done by someone, somewhere, somehow so that it became lucrative to destroy good fishing boats?

One answer might well be: “All of the above.” But a more fundamental cause goes back to that conversation I had with Brian Lenihan (the present Minister for Finance’s father) back in the 60s when Ireland was planning to enter the European Economic Community ( EEC) as it was then known. The conversation occurred during an interview I was conducting with the junior Minister - that status should have given me a clue - on the prospects for developing the vast untapped fisheries potential of the Irish coastline.

Brian, a pleasant man, interrupted me suddenly to ask “Tim Pat! Do you know how many whole time and part time farmers there are in this country?”

I did not know exactly but he rattled off the answer correct to a decimal point (around a quarter million, as I remember). Then he asked me did I know how many whole time and part time fishermen there were in the country. “including lobster men, currachmen, and the teacher who goes out in the summer night with a net after a few salmon?”

Again I could not reply with certainty but Brian could again answer with pin point accuracy, something just over 9,000 as I recall. “That”, he continued, “would hardly elect one Fianna Fail TD on the first count in a five seater. Now do you get me?.

I did. What he was telling me in effect was that the farming lobby had political clout, the fishermen did not and that in the forthcoming Brussels EEC negotiations the mackerel would be traded off against the bullock.

And there, in a nutshell, is the story of the Irish fishing industry. It's a tiny industry, and always has been. Stories of "over 50,000 employed at accession" are just moonshine.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

marco_polo wrote: »

Which they got from here

The other thing that highlights is:
The foreigners were stealing our fish before we joined the EU.

The Spanish seem to have replaced the Russians.

Scofflaw

K-9 wrote: »

The other thing that highlights is:
The foreigners were stealing our fish before we joined the EU.

The Spanish seem to have replaced the Russians.

Only briefly, though - they've been reined in. The bit where they were really hoovering up Irish fish was after our accession and before theirs.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

Only briefly, though - they've been reined in. The bit where they were really hoovering up Irish fish was after our accession and before theirs.

cordially,
Scofflaw

True, seems to have peaked before their accession and seems to have levelled of.

The argument against these figures will be that it doesn't account for illegal catches. I suppose that comes down to how much Spanish etc. authorities monitor catches.

Of course we also have the likes of the Atlantic Dawn not fishing in EU waters which wouldn't be in the figures.
Edit: It's Dutch now I believe!