Who has actually read the Lisbon Treaty?

dermot_sheehan

is_that_so wrote: »

He wasn't president, Douglás de hÍde was. Dev became president in 1959. On topic I've read the Consolidated version of the treaty and about 50% of the Treaty on the function of the EU.

I am aware of that, he was Taoiseach. There was concern among those that opposed the constitution, in hindsight sill irrational concern, that the position of president under the new constitution was a dictator like position setup for de valera.

nesf

gabhain7 wrote: »

How many voters in 1937 think read the Constitution?

How many understood its implications or could anticipate the constitutional jurisprudence that would flow from it?

Very little I guess,

voters don't need to read large, complicated legal texts cover to end, they just need to rely on interpretations from people they trust. Similarly I doubt people have read their mortgage agreement/the conveyance for their house or any other complicated legal documents they'll deal with during their life times without the benefit of legal advice.


In 1937 about half the country trusted Dev, about half opposed him. The constitution was passed with just over a majority.

Many ridiculous scare stories from that era too about how the position of president was a dictatorship for Dev.

I actually find it pretty bizarre that people are saying "Well you'd read every page of a mortgage agreement wouldn't you!". I mean, we have solicitors for that kind of crap, we pay them (obscene) fees so that we don't have to muddle through all possibly relevant pieces of legislation attached to the sale of a property/whatever.

Red Sleeping Beauty

gabhain7 wrote: »

How many voters in 1937 think read the Constitution?

How many understood its implications or could anticipate the constitutional jurisprudence that would flow from it?

Very little I guess,

voters don't need to read large, complicated legal texts cover to end, they just need to rely on interpretations from people they trust. Similarly I doubt people have read their mortgage agreement/the conveyance for their house or any other complicated legal documents they'll deal with during their life times without the benefit of legal advice.


In 1937 about half the country trusted Dev, about half opposed him. The constitution was passed with just over a majority.

Many ridiculous scare stories from that era too about how the position of president was a dictatorship for Dev.

Why does the Lisbon Treaty get compared to Constitution of Ireland ? One is a constitution and the other is a treaty that's supposed to not be a rewritten constitution in treaty form.


Me, I tried reading the first version with all the amendments but then got the consolidated one in print from the EU office on Moleworth St. and read that. So my vote will be based on what I've read in the treaty not someone else's interpretation.

Have the people who've read the Treaty also read the treaties it ammends (TEU and TEC)? If we're talking about what's admissible in a court then surely you'd need to have an understanding of them two previous treaties.

marco_polo

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Why does the Lisbon Treaty get compared to Constitution of Ireland ? One is a constitution and the other is a treaty that's supposed to not be a rewritten constitution in treaty form.


Me, I tried reading the first version with all the amendments but then got the consolidated one in print from the EU office on Moleworth St. and read that. So my vote will be based on what I've read in the treaty not someone else's interpretation.

Have the people who've read the Treaty also read the treaties it ammends (TEU and TEC)? If we're talking about what's admissible in a court then surely you'd need to have an understanding of them two previous treaties.

If you are reading the consolidated version then that contains all that remains from the previous treaties as well.

BlitzKrieg

Have the people who've read the Treaty also read the treaties it ammends (TEU and TEC)? If we're talking about what's admissible in a court then surely you'd need to have an understanding of them two previous treaties.

It notes which articles are fom the TEC/TEU treaties of Nice and you can compared quite quickly to see the changes.

Its no surprise that certain campaigns have been using articles that are unchanged from Nice as arguments against Lisbon. (people's movement are the most prominant cause they stick the article numbers on their leafles and it easy to see the mistake.)

Scofflaw

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Why does the Lisbon Treaty get compared to Constitution of Ireland ? One is a constitution and the other is a treaty that's supposed to not be a rewritten constitution in treaty form.


Me, I tried reading the first version with all the amendments but then got the consolidated one in print from the EU office on Moleworth St. and read that. So my vote will be based on what I've read in the treaty not someone else's interpretation.

Have the people who've read the Treaty also read the treaties it ammends (TEU and TEC)? If we're talking about what's admissible in a court then surely you'd need to have an understanding of them two previous treaties.

I have - and if your concern is over any particular article, please feel free to use the search engine at lisbonexposed.org, which allows you to see the post-Lisbon and pre-Lisbon articles side by side.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Stabshauptmann

Scofflaw wrote: »

Read it, summarised it, compared it to Nice, and produced a searchable version with Lisbon & Nice next to each other - here.

cordially,
Scofflaw

What an amazing resource, why didnt you publicise this more!

Scofflaw

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

What an amazing resource, why didnt you publicise this more!

Lack of time, really. I keep meaning to get together with some like-minded people and get some sort of "Internet for Democracy and Transparency" think-tank going, which would help to provide the resources to do - and to publicise - this sort of thing.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Wheely

I have also read it. Cover to cover.

robindch

I read around two-thirds of it without any difficulty. From an earlier post:

...it's really not a difficult read at all, though a few salt and pepper shakers, and perhaps some cutlery, certainly do help to visualize how decisions move back and forth from institution to institution.

What struck me most of all is how many caveats there are to everything. And caveats upon caveats. Upon caveats.

Frankly, from my memory of reading as far as I did, the EU would have trouble agreeing to launch a six-inch paper boat down the Liffey, let alone demand the townsfolk of Ballydehob conscript themselves into somebody's euroarmy.

But a good step in the right direction nonetheless.

Mark200

I've skimmed through it, and always referred to it when a certain claim was made and an article referenced.

ayumi

i don't understand it,can some1 explain what the consequences of it?

WeeBushy

ayumi wrote: »

i don't understand it,can some1 explain what the consequences of it?

Bit late now isn't it...

To steal a post from sink to sum up some of the key positives for you however:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60775332&postcount=57

meglome

I checked different text in it initially. Then read most of the consolidated version. Certainly not a riveting read but not too bad. And to be honest I was kinda perplexed by a lot of the venom from the No campaign.

prinz

meglome wrote: »

I checked different text in it initially. Then read most of the consolidated version. Certainly not a riveting read but not too bad. And to be honest I was kinda perplexed by a lot of the venom from the No campaign.

Take it into the toilets at Burger King, all the good stuff was written in invisible ink!

meglome

prinz wrote: »

Take it into the toilets at Burger King, all the good stuff was written in invisible ink!

I try not to hang around the toilets of burger restaurants, people get the wrong idea for some reason. But what do judges know.

Red Sleeping Beauty

I put my copy of the Treaty in the attic along with the govt.'s white paper and some other brochures, texts and leaflets I'd picked up. My room was awash with everything Lisbon. Very glad it's over now.