Engaged Muslim couple to be caned for having sex in a car in Malaysia

Filan

Another example of the cruelty of Islamic law. I'm not posting to cause controversy or a repeat of an earlier thread,it just saddens me.

irish_bob

Filan wrote: »

Another example of the cruelty of Islamic law. I'm not posting to cause controversy or a repeat of an earlier thread,it just saddens me.

its what they do in those countries , nothing out of the ordinary

Rev Hellfire

Is it Islamic law or a particular cultural slant been placed on its interpretation?

Filan

From experience Muslims commonly attempt to negate acts such as this as by dismissing them as 'cultural' or due to a poor translation.........

Rev Hellfire

Filan wrote: »

From experience Muslims commonly attempt to negate acts such as this as by dismissing them as 'cultural' or due to a poor translation.........

And perhaps there is a good reason for this.

HalloweenJack

AFAIK, only Muslims in Malaysia are subject to the laws that derive from interpretations of the Koran. I head it on Al-Jazeera, iirc, before.

EDIT: Just posting this to highlight that Islamic law is NOT forced onto non-Muslims.

irishconvert

Filan wrote: »

Another example of the cruelty of Islamic law. I'm not posting to cause controversy or a repeat of an earlier thread,it just saddens me.

What about the cruelty of Irish law where a repeat convicted rapist is rereleased time and time again only to rape again 14 hours after being released? Where is the protection for the women from animals like this?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0916/dublin.html

Or the law which doesn't protect old people in their own home:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0922/barryp.html

You would do well to get your own house in order before critising other countries.

Dades

irishconvert wrote: »

You would do well to get your own house in order before critising other countries.

At least Irish people will put up their hands and criticise the justice system, rather than trying to divert attention with spurious examples of bad application in other countries.

Do you have a point to make about the case the OP refers to?

irishconvert

Dades wrote: »

At least Irish people will put up their hands and criticise the justice system, rather than trying to divert attention with spurious examples of bad application in other countries.

Do you have a point to make about the case the OP refers to?

That is the law in Malaysia. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. They also come down heavy on drug traffickers, something we could do with here. How many deaths and destroyed families is this man responsible for (http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1023/drugs.html)? He will probably be back on the streets within 5 years if he is a good boy in prison. In Malaysia he would be executed.

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

What about the cruelty of Irish law where a repeat convicted rapist is rereleased time and time again only to rape again 14 hours after being released? Where is the protection for the women from animals like this?
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0916/dublin.html

Or the law which doesn't protect old people in their own home:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0922/barryp.html

You would do well to get your own house in order before critising other countries.

You are not comparing like for like. Those examples you give do not refer to the application of religious laws in Ireland.

Also because a criminal is not caught does not mean the criminal behaviour is condoned by catholicism/christianity. It means the justice system is ineffective and the deterrents are inadequate.

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

That is the law in Malaysia. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. They also come down heavy on drug traffickers, something we could do with here. How many deaths and destroyed families is this man responsible for (http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1023/drugs.html)? He will probably be back on the streets within 5 years if he is a good boy in prison. In Malaysia he would be executed.

How many deaths and destroyed families were the engaged couple who had pre-marital sex responsible for ? You are talking rubbish here.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

You are not comparing like for like. Those examples you give do not refer to the application of religious laws in Ireland.

Also because a criminal is not caught does not mean the criminal behaviour is condoned by catholicism/christianity. It means the justice system is ineffective and the deterrents are inadequate.

Malaysian society does not approve of sex outside marriage, so this is their deterrant. And I imagine it works, this couple will not be having sex in a public place again anytime soon in Malaysia. And many other couples who thought about it will not do it because they are aware of the consequences.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

How many deaths and destroyed families were the engaged couple who had pre-marital sex responsible for ? You are talking rubbish here.

See my post above.

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

this couple will not be having sex in a public place again anytime soon in Malaysia.

You obviously approve of what to many is an example of the cruelty of islamic law. Which kind of brings the thread full circle.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

You obviously approve of what to many is an example of the cruelty of islamic law. Which kind of brings the thread full circle.

Do you deny Malaysians the right to not want to see public sex acts taking place?

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you deny Malaysians the right to not want to see public sex acts taking place?

If I or anyone else on this thread said that then it must be true. Otherwise try and pay attention to, or even address, what people actually say.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

If I or anyone else on this thread said that then it must be true. Otherwise try and pay attention to, or even address, what people actually say.

Ok, my view is that if they knew the law and they broke the law then they should be prepared to take the punishment. I think Malaysia has the right to have this law/punishment in place if the people are in favour of it and if the punishment is a proven deterrant.

I also agree with their law regarding executing drug traffickers. How do you feel about that?

Dades

Your continued comparison of drug trafficking to a couple having sex is disingenuous to say the least.

The issue is here is less the crime - sex in public is an offence in most countries - it is the punishment that is barbaric. Declaring they knew the consequences does not make the law itself any less of a disgrace.

Filan

Some people will go to any length to defend their creed......regardless of how illogical, senseless or cruel that might be...............

irishconvert

Dades wrote: »

Your continued comparison of drug trafficking to a couple having sex is disingenuous to say the least.

No it is not. The original post is a clear attack on Islamic Law. I am presenting another law in Malaysia which a lot of Irish people, definitely a lot of boards.ie posters from what I have read on these forms, would agree with.

Dades wrote: »

The issue is here is less the crime - sex in public is an offence in most countries - it is the punishment that is barbaric. Declaring they knew the consequences does not make the law itself any less of a disgrace.

Well that is your opinion but obviously it is not the opinion of the Malaysian people.

irishconvert

Filan wrote: »

Some people will go to any length to defend their creed......regardless of how illogical, senseless or cruel that might be...............

It is nothing to do with defending creed, it is there to protect society. Would you like to live in a place where people openly have sex in public places? Would you like your children to grow up witnessing such acts?

Filan

It's not an attack, it's an opinion......and Islamic law in my opinion is barbaric......hugely in contravention of International Human Rights Law......

A cynical and disinenguous attempt to divert attention to an irrelevant example.

No no country has the right to beat it's people, Islamic or otherwise.

I'm not so insecure that I need protection from sex on the streets, that people need to be beat to protect me.....

Again one would think God would have bigger concerns .

irishconvert

Filan wrote: »

I'm not so insecure that I need protection from sex on the streets.

What has "insecure" got to do with anything???

Filan wrote: »

No no country has the right to beat it's people, Islamic or otherwise.

If you want to talk about rights then...
No country (USA) has the right to jail innocent people without trial.
No country (Ireland) has the right to, at the very least turn a blind eye to these kidnapped people being transported through our country on their way to this prison.
And no so-called neutral country (Ireland) has the right to allow war planes to refuel in it's airports on their way to kill innocent people in an illegal war.

So please get off your high horse abouts people's rights when you live in a country that supports terrorism on Muslims.

seahorse

irishconvert wrote: »

If you want to talk about rights then...
No country (USA) has the right to jail innocent people without trial.
No country (Ireland) has the right to, at the very least turn a blind eye to these kidnapped people being transported through our country on their way to this prison.
And no so-called neutral country (Ireland) has the right to allow war planes to refuel in it's airports on their way to kill innocent people in an illegal war.

So please get off your high horse abouts people's rights when you live in a country that supports terrorism on Muslims.

I have to say I agree with Irishconvert here. Please remember though, Irishconvert, that one hundred thousand Irish people marched against the war in Iraq - I was one of them. Also many many Irish people, the vast majority I suspect, did not support the use of Shannon Airport for transporting prisoners or refuelling.

irishconvert

seahorse wrote: »

I have to say I agree with Irishconvert here. Please remember though, Irishconvert, that one hundred thousand Irish people marched against the war in Iraq - I was one of them. Also many many Irish people, the vast majority I suspect, did not support the use of Shannon Airport for transporting prisoners or refuelling.

Hi Seahorse. Yes I know that, I was one of the protestors also. And I am aware the actions of a Govenment and the wishes of it's people are not always the same thing. However Fianna Fail were voted back in at the General Election giving them the green light to continue to compromise our neutrality and support the war on Islam.

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

Fianna Fail were voted back in at the General Election giving them the green light to continue to compromise our neutrality and support the war on Islam.

The war in iraq and afghanistan is not a war on islam, it is a war against islamist extremist terrorists. Also it has nothing to do with this thread.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

The war in iraq and afghanistan is not a war on islam, it is a war against islamist extremist terrorists.

Who are the extremist terrorists and what did they do to cause the attack on Afghanistan and Iraq? Bin Laden? The CIA say there is no evidence linking him to the 911 attacks. Most of the attackers were Saudi. Why did they not invade Saudi? Ok, all for another thread and forum I know.

Morlar wrote: »

Also it has nothing to do with this thread.

True, but the way Muslims are negatively portrayed in the media causes threads such as this to be created. Who here can honestly remember the last time they read or saw a story on TV that showed Muslims in a positive light? In fact when was there last a thread on boards.ie that didn't link Muslims to terrorism/wife beating/<insert other stereotypes>

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

Who are the extremist terrorists and what did they do to cause the attack on Afghanistan and Iraq? Bin Laden? The CIA say there is no evidence linking him to the 911 attacks. Most of the attackers were Saudi. Why did they not invade Saudi? Ok, all for another thread and forum I know.

All offtopic.

I did not mention 911, you did.

It would be a bit disingenous of you to claim there is no link between the groups responsible and the countries mentioned now wouldn't it ? Considering a few posts ago you were saying that your faith had nothing to do with your posts on this thread that is not surprising, not least considering your username.

irishconvert wrote: »

True, but the way Muslims are negatively portrayed in the media causes threads such as this to be created.

Bull**** -what causes threads like this to be created is the inhumane cruelty of islamic and sharia law. Read that sentence again slowly if it is not clear enough for you.

irishconvert wrote: »

Who here can honestly remember the last time they read or saw a story on TV that showed Muslims in a positive light?

Which exact newsworthy story do you claim was downplayed ?

irishconvert wrote: »

In fact when was there last a thread on boards.ie that didn't link Muslims to terrorism/wife beating/<insert other stereotypes>

You would have to post the links to this persecution of muslims you claim to observe on here. In fact this board is so politically correct I have seen threads locked and users banned for expressing an honest opinion from a european christian viewpoint about either islamic or islamic integration issues, so you are talking out of your hat.

Dades

irishconvert wrote: »

No it is not. The original post is a clear attack on Islamic Law. I am presenting another law in Malaysia which a lot of Irish people, definitely a lot of boards.ie posters from what I have read on these forms, would agree with.

Your use of the word "attack" typifies the issue here.

Rather than stepping outside of your defensive zone and weigh up the punishment to the crime, it becomes an attack on your entire religion.

Caning a couple for having sex in a car is disproportionate to the crime.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

The war in iraq and afghanistan is not a war on islam, it is a war against islamist extremist terrorists.

irishconvert wrote: »

Who are the extremist terrorists and what did they do to cause the attack on Afghanistan and Iraq?

Morlar wrote: »

All offtopic.

You are the one who said the war in iraq and afghanistan is a war against islamist extremist terrorists. Can you answer the question please? Who were the terrorists in iraq and afghanistan and what did they do to cause USA/UK to invade?

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

You are the one who said the war in iraq and afghanistan is a war against islamist extremist terrorists. Can you answer the question please? Who were the terrorists in iraq and afghanistan and what did they do to cause USA/UK to invade?

Before any of that was mentioned you were saying how it was a war against islam. Care to explain that one ?

The war in iraq and afghanistan is not a war on islam, it is a war against islamist extremist terrorists. Also it has nothing to do with this thread

Cactus Col

I can actually see the benefits of caning being used over other forms of punishment .. such as being fined.

Fines, certainly here, are not a deterrent, at best they are a nuisance. Certianly I would like to see all drivers caught speeding caned rather than fined.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

Before any of that was mentioned you were saying how it was a war against islam. Care to explain that one ?

Ok, avoid the question. I know you have no answer anyway. Bush and Blair have no valid reason for being in Iraq and Afganistan so I doubt you can come up with any.

techdiver

Cactus Col wrote: »

I can actually see the benefits of caning being used over other forms of punishment .. such as being fined.

Fines, certainly here, are not a deterrent, at best they are a nuisance. Certianly I would like to see all drivers caught speeding caned rather than fined.

I would prefer to get a few slaps of a cane than being fined, so the fine is more of deterrent to me...

Morlar

irishconvert wrote: »

Ok, avoid the question. I know you have no answer anyway. Bush and Blair have no valid reason for being in Iraq and Afganistan so I doubt you can come up with any.

No, no - you started this thread down that road by saying in the first place that it was a war against islam which is the part you are refusing to answer.

zenith

I'm thinking of closing this thread. The next two responses will dictate what will happen.

Filan

Irish Convert do you not see the link between Islamic law and the acts of cruelty which take place in Islamic states. They are mandated in the Koran. Do you support stoning for adultery or cross amputation as advocated in the Koran?. It is not an 'attack' on Islam, I'm merely hurt by what Islamic law mandates.

There is a reason why Islam receives such bad coverage, look at the acts which Muslims commit in the name of Islam? Again I'm in no way anti-Muslim,most Muslims, even you Irish Convert I'm sure are good people, but I'm fearful of and appaled by Islam.

Thread closure is probably ineviatable as reasonable discussions where Islam is concerned are as an Irish white christmas...exist but very rare.

irishconvert

Filan wrote: »

Irish Convert do you not see the link between Islamic law and the acts of cruelty which take place in Islamic states. They are mandated in the Koran.

Most so-called Islamic states, Saudi Arabia for example, are supported by the west, the United States in particular. Do you think the people there want a dictator royal family who opresses not only the women, but the men as well, in power? The laws are very extremem intrepertations of how Islamic law is laid out in the Qur'an.

Filan wrote: »

Do you support stoning for adultery or cross amputation as advocated in the Koran?.

The Qur'an DOES NOT advocate stoning for Adultery. Please read the Qur'an for yourself before you make such false claims.

Filan wrote: »

It is not an 'attack' on Islam, I'm merely hurt by what Islamic law mandates.

It is an attack because there is so much mis-information being spread such as the things you have said above. You don't even seem to know what Islamic law mandates so perhaps you should do some research before you begin to feel "hurt".

Filan wrote: »

There is a reason why Islam receives such bad coverage, look at the acts which Muslims commit in the name of Islam?

Please give me examples of the acts comitted in the name of Islam. I can guarantee the vast majority of these are for politicial reasons and nothing to do with Islam.

Filan wrote: »

Again I'm in no way anti-Muslim,most Muslims, even you Irish Convert I'm sure are good people, but I'm fearful of and appaled by Islam.

That is true, the problem is most people don't have contact with real everyday Muslims and their only exposure is the propaganda they see on BBC & Sky news.

Filan wrote: »

Thread closure is probably ineviatable as reasonable discussions where Islam is concerned are as an Irish white christmas...exist but very rare.

It has been a failty open and frank discussion so far. And I haven't even threatened to blow you up! Maybe the thread needs to be split but I don't see any reason for ending the discussion.

irishconvert

Morlar wrote: »

No, no - you started this thread down that road by saying in the first place that it was a war against islam which is the part you are refusing to answer.

Ok, two reasons. One: the constant negative propaganda against Islam and muslims in the media. Two: the constant attacks on Muslim countries by the west or countries directly supported by the west.

Now will you answer my question please?

Filan

I have read , actually own a copy of the Koran and stoning is contained,as is cross amputation , which is right hand , left leg or reverse......I'll check what Verse.

Ok perhaps it's 100 lashes for adultery...just did a quick search but Mohammad did preside over stonings did he not?...

irishconvert

Filan wrote: »

I have read , actually own a copy of the Koran and stoning is contained,as is cross amputation , which is right hand , left leg or reverse......I'll check what Verse.

It must be an inaccurate translation. Who is it translated by? Is the part about stoning in brackets? If so it is the translator's own interpretation/comments and not the words of the Qur'an

Filan wrote: »

Ok perhaps it's 100 lashes for adultery...just did a quick search but Mohammad did preside over stonings did he not?...

Yes, lashes is the prescribed punishment for adultery. Muhammed presiding over stonings, I am not aware of that. Where are you getting this information? Link please.

Dades

irishconvert wrote: »

Please give me examples of the acts comitted in the name of Islam. I can guarantee the vast majority of these are for politicial reasons and nothing to do with Islam.

I read here that an engaged couple are to be caned for admitting to attempt to have sex in a car.

Oh, that was the original point. :pac:

the_syco

irishconvert wrote: »

It is nothing to do with defending creed, it is there to protect society. Would you like to live in a place where people openly have sex in public places? Would you like your children to grow up witnessing such acts?

How about reading the article? It didn't happen in a public place. It happened in a car in an office car park.

Also, the caning HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SHAGGING IN "PUBLIC", it's to do with shagging out of wedlock.

Ponster

the_syco wrote: »

How about reading the article? It didn't happen in a public place. It happened in a car in an office car park.

I'm pretty sure that any place where someone else can see you would be classed as 'public', no matter if it's in a closed office carpark.

For info, AFAIK in Ireland it's a €2000 fine per person for the same offence (trying to find the right Act)

irishconvert

the_syco wrote: »

How about reading the article? It didn't happen in a public place. It happened in a car in an office car park.

Also, the caning HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SHAGGING IN "PUBLIC", it's to do with shagging out of wedlock.

It was a car park in a shopping and office complex.

techdiver

Any country that allows religion to dictate the laws of the land are a country full of weak minded fools.

irish_bob

irishconvert wrote: »

It is nothing to do with defending creed, it is there to protect society. Would you like to live in a place where people openly have sex in public places? Would you like your children to grow up witnessing such acts?

would you like to live in a place where people openly execute people for being gay , would you like your children to grow up witnessing such acts , welcome to iran

Kooli

irishconvert wrote: »

It was a car park in a shopping and office complex.

Yes that's where it occurred and that's why they were caught, but my understanding is that the offence they have committed, which they will get the six lashes for, is sex out of wedlock. So you don't have a problem with this crime or this punishment?

philologos

I don't see how one could have a problem with having sex in a car in a public location as being a crime. It's impossible to enforce where such acts take place in private.

I think in this case the crime is warranted, the severity of the punishment remains to be debated. However, I feel that this law should be equally applied for non-Muslims in Malaysia if they feel it's existence is warranted.

Although I feel many people are assessing this situation with a Western mindset, I.E that all laws should conform to Western standards and that there should be no difference in how differing cultures deal with laws.

Kooli

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see how one could have a problem with having sex in a car in a public location as being a crime. It's impossible to enforce where such acts take place in private.

QUOTE]

OK I'll say it again, I think the issue is that the crime is SEX OUT OF WEDLOCK! NO ONE, not ONE PERSON is saying that sex in public should not be a crime.

philologos

Kooli wrote: »

OK I'll say it again, I think the issue is that the crime is SEX OUT OF WEDLOCK! NO ONE, not ONE PERSON is saying that sex in public should not be a crime.

Again, the outrage only comes out of an expectation for all legal systems to be Westernised.

The main problem with the Malaysian system is that they do not have one law for one people. It is a two tiered legal system which isn't right or fair by any means.

However, if the majority of people wish for sex outside of marriage to be illegal, there is a mandate for it. I.E It isn't baseless.

In this particular case given the circumstances I have no issue with the arrests, it is only the punishment that is up for debate.