Is it me being overly sensitive or..

Max Headroom

..does anyone else think some people should'nt be allowed to re-produce...
Heres what i saw today....
I'm working in a house on a council estate (it may or may not matter) ...i need to get something from my van, so i go outside ..the van is parked on a narrow road in a cul de sac of about 30 houses all on one side.Opposite is a green embankment leading to a road under construction....theres cars, vans and heavy vehicles all around the works....
As i glance over at the works i notice a small semi-naked girl, no more than 2 or 3 years old climbing up this embankment....she's probably 50 mts away...i look around and theres nobody up or down the road....i called to my customer and he came out quickly ..took one look at the child and said.."ah thats only ***** her oul ones probably still in bed and the other kids left the door open......He went back inside...
He later told me more horror stories that really made me think.....
Would this be a normal thing on estates these days....
BTW..I'm not judging anyone ,its just when you see this and think what could happen....

miec

Hi Op

I used to live in a fairly rough area and I often saw very young children out on the road and potentially in serious danger. It used to break my heart seeing these kids fecked out on the road, basically the streets become their home. Also they grew up to be very destructive and aggressive. So I understand where you are coming from, but you cannot enforce reproduction unless everyone agrees to hand over their entire autonomy, our sexuality would have to be policed completely so unless you want that, I'm sorry we can't stop these types of people having children and not caring for them.

What I would like to see is better childcare and social service facilities, and punitive measures for parents who don't care for their children, that little girl you mentioned could easily be abused or raped, she will probably grow up very angry and ****ed up, most likely getting into trouble or drugs but she has no start in life as it currently stands. Her parents should be punished for that, and the children put into a caring environment. It is not the best solution but probably the most viable at the moment.

Joey the lips

I dont get why she should not be allowed to reproduce? Becauase she is probably in bed or because what her neighbour told you about her.

Do you not think the neighbour would have been far better to knock on the womens door and tell her the child is out on the hill. I can think of a few reasons this child would be out. The mother could be hanging out washing, dressing another child etc. Lastly where is the father? I am assuming he is working which makes him a fairly decent father.

I understand how somethings look but you know nothing about there relationship. Lastly you are adding to the stigma by saying she lives in a council estate.

ChocolateSauce

Some people shouldn't reproduce, but no-one should be allowed to stop them. Also, there's a difference between being allowed to reproduce and being allowed custody of your child.

metrovelvet

OP then what did you do after the man went inside?

Iwasfrozen

I say we have a mass ethnic extermination of all lower class areas now and ask questions later.

Joey the lips

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I say we have a mass ethnic extermination of all lower class areas now and ask questions later.

Nothing like a good old fashioned world war to send the lower classes into the fireing line!

Sort out mass unemployment as well.

Max Headroom

metrovelvet wrote: »

OP then what did you do after the man went inside?

I did what everyone else would do "mind my own business"......;)

To answer a few questions before this turns into another slagging match.....
The woman in question has 4 kids..two different fathers, neither about
This is a regular occurence with her, hence the attitude of my guy....
There are more single mums on the same road and he said this goes on all the time, theres no point in ringing anyone as nobody gives a s**t ..his words..

imo theres no way this child should be left out of sight for a secound...i'm thinking Madeline Mc.Cann etc...
I'm just asking the question..is this the norm nowadays..

Joey the lips

Max Headroom wrote: »

I did what everyone else would do "mind my own business"......;)

To answer a few questions before this turns into another slagging match.....
The woman in question has 4 kids..two different fathers, neither about
This is a regular occurence with her, hence the attitude of my guy....
There are more single mums on the same road and he said this goes on all the time, theres no point in ringing anyone as nobody gives a s**t ..his words..

imo theres no way this child should be left out of sight for a secound...i'm thinking Madeline Mc.Cann etc...
I'm just asking the question..is this the norm nowadays..

Its amazing how you neglected to leave this out at the start. I suspect a little backtracking.... What would you think if it were me who said all this then came back with this defence.

If it bothers you tell the mother. Get it straight from the horses mouth so to speak. I came from a working class area and the one thing i clearly remember is loads of kids..... But every mother watched everyones kids... It was the way it was done... and guess what.... it still is done that way.

i always suspect these threads to have no real substance kinda like the headlines in the sun if you catch my drift.

Max Headroom

Wow..you're really taking offence to this are'nt you....

I didnt want to bore people with a long winded story like some people who have too much to say...:rolleyes:

My op says enough get some other peoples views on the subject.....if you want to go off on a little rant, feel free...
Real opinions and replies on the subject greatly anticipated..

Max Headroom

Your opinion, fair enough ..but would this be a common thing now..i grew up on a council estate, there were loads of kids..but in my case the older kids looked out for the toddlers...and no child of that age would be left alone under any circumstances...I've lived in a private estate for over 20 years now and NEVER saw toddlers left alone like this....
I blame the parent(s) is the only conclusion i suppose...:o

SarahSassy

As Richard Dawkins pointed out on The LAte LAte last night, the human race would probaly survive for a further 10 million years and become more intellectual, bigger brained etc but only if the more intelligent humans produce the most kids - sadly with parents like this we will be lucky to last til 2100.

Max Headroom

I fear he may be right....:(...i'll be long gone by then...(2100) ..

metrovelvet

Its certainly not the norm where I am. Personally, if it were me in your shoes I would not have minded my own business and I would have gone straight to the mother.

For all you know, she may have been doing the dishes or hoovering upstairs and thinks the child is still in the house. That happened to my neighbor. Her two year old climbed out the window while she was in the kitchen doing something and she hadnt noticed. Luckily some other kids in the estate [not council housing in case you are wondering as it seemed in important detail in your OP] brought him back.

seahorse

Well, I was born and raised between a council flat and a council house but I am not in denial about what I've seen and where I've seen it. There are certain council areas where this is very common; that is to say, you'd see it on a daily basis, and no, I have NEVER seen it in a private estate.

That's not to say the majority of parents in council areas dont mind their kids, because in my experience they do; but toddlers wandering the streets alone in their nappies and a vest or maybe being minded out on the streets by four and five year olds is a common sight in certain places and anyone who says otherwise either has no experience of those areas or is talking crap.

By the way, the people this disgusts most, from what I've seen, are the responsible parents living on the same streets as these excuses for parents, because they've got to witness it day in day out and on top of that put up with getting lumped in the same basket as far as stereotyping is concerned just because they live in the same area.

chachabinx

The worst thing about it is children have an unconditional love for everybody no matter how they treat them...
Take a child away from abusive parents & return them a few months later and they will still want to be with them and love them...

Kids taken away & put into permanent families at a young age give them their best chance in life but then...

Say if you have a junkie mother who doesn't care or feed for her baby thats 2 years old, & she is taken away from the mother & adopted into another family who want her to be their child
Then when the child is 7, the mother had cleaned herself up, has a job & has turned her life around indefinately... does she not dererve to get her child back?... and does the people that took care of her dereve to have their child taken off them that they have loved & care for 5 years & thought that she was their child forever?
And does the child deserve the heartbreak of being taken away from her new family & put with a woman that she doesn't even remember?

Its one of them situations that can't be answered...

chachabinx

Joey the lips wrote: »

I dont get why she should not be allowed to reproduce? Becauase she is probably in bed or because what her neighbour told you about her.

Do you not think the neighbour would have been far better to knock on the womens door and tell her the child is out on the hill. I can think of a few reasons this child would be out. The mother could be hanging out washing, dressing another child etc. Lastly where is the father? I am assuming he is working which makes him a fairly decent father.

I understand how somethings look but you know nothing about there relationship. Lastly you are adding to the stigma by saying she lives in a council estate.

God you are soooo naive. That would be the story in a Disney Cartoon.. sadly we live in Dublin where things aren't so rosey!

Im from Tallaght & just up by Lidl by citywest there is always TODDLERS out in nappies (and yes in the winter) on the main road (not even on their road).. so don't tell me that her mam is just hanging out the washing.. even if Daddy was still around he's probably out tryin to get a score bag while mammy is on the kitchen floor with a needle hangin out of her arm!

seahorse

Joey the lips wrote: »

Do you not think the neighbour would have been far better to knock on the womens door and tell her the child is out on the hill. I can think of a few reasons this child would be out. The mother could be hanging out washing, dressing another child etc.

Nine times out of ten that well-meaning knock on the door would be met with an abrupt "fcukoff".

Honestly, you should take a drive round some of the areas I'm talking about and watch the hoards of toddlers running round with their arses hanging out of their pissy nappies. The only way I could explain that by following your logic would be to assume that there is a tradition of leaving front doors wide open during the daily community washing-hanging conventions that are going on!

As to the original question posed in this thread, I don’t know about people not being allowed to have kids, but some people certainly shouldn’t be allowed to raise them. I've seen toddlers out on the streets so young that they hadn’t even found their feet yet and were tottering along holding their hands out to balance themselves. Learning to take your first steps out on the streets on your own is about the saddest start in life I can think of. :mad:

chachabinx

seahorse wrote: »

Nine times out of ten that well-meaning knock on the door would be met with an abrupt "fcukoff".

Honestly, you should take a drive round some of the areas I'm talking about and watch the hoards of toddlers running round with their arses hanging out of their pissy nappies. The only way I could explain that by following your logic would be to assume that there is a tradition of leaving front doors wide open during the daily community washing-hanging conventions that are going on!

As to the original question posed in this thread, I don’t know about people not being allowed to have kids, but some people certainly shouldn’t be allowed to raise them. I've seen toddlers out on the streets so young that they hadn’t even found their feet yet and were tottering along holding their hands out to balance themselves. Learning to take your first steps out on the streets on your own is about the saddest start in life I can think of. :mad:

What I wanna know if this is so widespread why are the police not driving around with social workers & picking up the kids. The parents should be brought to court over this. Is discusting!

stesh

I've heard the argument that since social services already take away children from parents who are deemed 'unfit', there isn't really a difference if they aren't allowed to reproduce.

Nonetheless, any talk of such far-reaching government control sure sets off the alarm bells for me...

Johnny Utah

Some people shouldn't be allowed to live, nevermind have kids. Waste of oxygen.

Dudess

seahorse wrote: »

By the way, the people this disgusts most, from what I've seen, are the responsible parents living on the same streets as these excuses for parents, because they've got to witness it day in day out and on top of that put up with getting lumped in the same basket as far as stereotyping is concerned just because they live in the same area.

That's one of the sickening things - in an ideal world, everyone would realise the vast majority of people in the same communities don't carry on with that negligent sh1t... but sadly, many people don't realise/want to.

seahorse wrote: »

As to the original question posed in this thread, I don’t know about people not being allowed to have kids, but some people certainly shouldn’t be allowed to raise them.

+1. Enforced sterilisation is a frightening prospect...

Learning to take your first steps out on the streets on your own is about the saddest start in life I can think of. :mad:

profitius

Enforced sterilisation would certainly be the best way of stopping crime in alot of cases. No matter what anybody says, some familes are basically schools for criminals. The worrying thing about the countries future is that they're the people having most kids.

Porkpie

We need a license to drive a car. We need a passport to travel abroad. We need planning permission to build an extension on our house.

Yet any idiot can have a child.

stovelid

Porkpie wrote: »

Yet any idiot can have a child.

They sure can.

Virgil°

Dudess wrote: »

+1. Enforced sterilisation is a frightening prospect...

Only in some cases. What about say... convicted murderers or paedophiles?
Should they be allowed raise children?
Enforced sterlising sounds faily meek compared to the above imo.

Dudess

Virgil° wrote: »

What about say... convicted murderers or paedophiles?
Should they be allowed raise children?

Being opposed to enforced sterilisation is not the same as saying anyone should be allowed raise children. To have a child and to raise a child - two different things. My friend's son's father has never even seen his child, whereas her partner has raised him as his own.

Cainer

God you are soooo naive. That would be the story in a Disney Cartoon.. sadly we live in Dublin where things aren't so rosey!

Im from Tallaght & just up by Lidl by citywest there is always TODDLERS out in nappies (and yes in the winter) on the main road (not even on their road).. so don't tell me that her mam is just hanging out the washing.. even if Daddy was still around he's probably out tryin to get a score bag while mammy is on the kitchen floor with a needle hangin out of her arm!

I can back this up because I drive by every day and see exactly this. It’s called Mac Uilliam something or other. Now obviously there are some decent people living there but a lot of the kids are left playing with the traffic and nobody gives a crap.

That estate is a disgrace anyway. It’s a modern ghetto. There is absolutely nowhere for the kids top play and there are no fences to protect the children from what is a very busy road.

You see kids playing with burned out cars and broken shopping trolleys, I’m surprised I haven’t heard about some child being killed in there.

miec

Enforced sterilisation would certainly be the best way of stopping crime in alot of cases. No matter what anybody says, some familes are basically schools for criminals. The worrying thing about the countries future is that they're the people having most kids.

That is such a lazy response to a complex situation, enforced sterialisation is not the solution to families that don't take care of their children, who decides to sterilise who? This was one of the things that Hitler advocated, get rid of the undesirables (as he saw fit) and only keep those he deemed suitable. If this was brought it, what is to stop some crazy tyrant sterilising huge scores of people. Would you like to be sterilised by force?

What is required for situations as described by the Op is zero tolerance to parental neglect, whereby the children are cared for elsewhere, be it relatives or a caring environment such as foster care (that is properly regulated) parenting skills for the parents and if the parents take proper responsibility for their children, they can have them back and be monitored on a regular basis. However, this is costly and time consuming but is probably the most viable solution.

Max Headroom

...Or the Government could stop "rewarding" these women for inflicting so many kids on an already over-burdened economy.....

meditraitor

Re-sterilisation/licence for reproduction

Ive been thinking about this lately, not exactly relevent but after watching a show about that lady in the good old US of A that had the Octuplets.... this in itself is not bad (pretty amazing actualy) but the fvckin eejit already had 6 kids before the octuplets....

This woman is single unemployed (ok I realise she cant work with that many kids) and on assistance....

I know its not even relevent to the case in question but it does question whether in certain cases woman should be denied the right to procreate at will, this nutter obviously has a problem.....

The point about neglect is a sticky one also, children by their very nature are curious and mischievious and if a parent takes their eye of them for 5 minutes they could be up to anything,

I was a bit of a cvnt when I was younger, so my mother tells me. When I was 3 I set fire to a neighbours garden messing with matches but believe me my parents were not bad , I was just hard work like most other kids and sometimes no matter how carefull they are with their children sh1t happens...

profitius

miec wrote: »

That is such a lazy response to a complex situation, enforced sterialisation is not the solution to families that don't take care of their children, who decides to sterilise who? This was one of the things that Hitler advocated, get rid of the undesirables (as he saw fit) and only keep those he deemed suitable. If this was brought it, what is to stop some crazy tyrant sterilising huge scores of people. Would you like to be sterilised by force?

What is required for situations as described by the Op is zero tolerance to parental neglect, whereby the children are cared for elsewhere, be it relatives or a caring environment such as foster care (that is properly regulated) parenting skills for the parents and if the parents take proper responsibility for their children, they can have them back and be monitored on a regular basis. However, this is costly and time consuming but is probably the most viable solution.

Its not a lazy reply and the situation is not at all complex but very straight forward. Obviously there would have to be strict rules etc but there are cases where we know for sure that the people would not have a hope of bringing up a child properly.

I agree with parents being made do a parenting course. In fact they should be teaching that in school instead of things 99% of people have no use for.

Dudess

Max Headroom wrote: »

...Or the Government could stop "rewarding" these women for inflicting so many kids on an already over-burdened economy.....

That would only be punishing the children.

miec

Or the Government could stop "rewarding" these women for inflicting so many kids on an already over-burdened economy.....

I agree that the current welfare system advocates a hand out not a hand up mentality, but to stop payments means these children starve and suffer, simple as. Whether you like it or not these people are human, and I believe it is through education, promoting responsibility (and if need be bring in punitive measures to ensure people obey) then so be it.

Its not a lazy reply and the situation is not at all complex but very straight forward.

I am afraid it is, your thinking is black and white, you are offering either / or solutions that require very little thinking or effort. It takes effort and thinking to provide viable solutions to parents who don't care for their children, ripping out their ability to procreate is a violent and anti-human act. We have no right to do that to another human being under any circumstances. Personally if I was forced to do that I would prefer to be hanged or killed than have my reproductive organs removed or sterilised, it is barbaric. People talk about these people on council estates as if they are sub-human or vermin. In reality a lot of these people are seriously ****ed up in the head, they have an enormous amount of social problems and they need help (which includes tough love, not just namby pamby platitudes) from society, not this form of brutality. I find the morality of those who advocate enforced sterilisation highly questionable?

Obviously there would have to be strict rules etc but there are cases where we know for sure that the people would not have a hope of bringing up a child properly.

Why do you think these people do not have a hope? Can you provide an example? What about middle class or wealthier parents who can hide the fact they neglect their children, because believe me, neglect occurs throughout all the classes, the rich can hide it better, that is all.

metrovelvet

miec wrote: »

Why do you think these people do not have a hope? Can you provide an example? What about middle class or wealthier parents who can hide the fact they neglect their children, because believe me, neglect occurs throughout all the classes, the rich can hide it better, that is all.

Sure. Let's sterilise all those parents who sent their kids to boarding school to get beaten and raped.

profitius

miec wrote: »

I am afraid it is, your thinking is black and white, you are offering either / or solutions that require very little thinking or effort. It takes effort and thinking to provide viable solutions to parents who don't care for their children, ripping out their ability to procreate is a violent and anti-human act. We have no right to do that to another human being under any circumstances. Personally if I was forced to do that I would prefer to be hanged or killed than have my reproductive organs removed or sterilised, it is barbaric. People talk about these people on council estates as if they are sub-human or vermin. In reality a lot of these people are seriously ****ed up in the head, they have an enormous amount of social problems and they need help (which includes tough love, not just namby pamby platitudes) from society, not this form of brutality. I find the morality of those who advocate enforced sterilisation highly questionable?

You're looking at things from the point of view of the victims ie the people causing all the trouble. Yes I know they're f**ked up in the head but I also know it'll take something radical to change their behaviour. As things stand the situation is getting worse and worse. Every generation there are more of these people.


I'm looking at the big picture. They might not be mentally right but that doesn't mean they've a right to drag down society with them. Its got so bad now that something drastic has to be done to clean up the mess.


As I said before I think all people should be educated on how to behave and how to bring up chrildren. Courses should be made available for adults. If they choose to ignore the education then its time to do something. Thats not black and white thinking thats called taking action.


In the old days if these people behaved like that they would have been forced to leave the area by the local population. There'd be no law to save them then. Yeah thats right, the current laws protect them and help to lower standards.

miec wrote: »

Why do you think these people do not have a hope? Can you provide an example? What about middle class or wealthier parents who can hide the fact they neglect their children, because believe me, neglect occurs throughout all the classes, the rich can hide it better, that is all.

Theres a difference between neglect and teaching kids how to be scumbags. Its the latter type of parent that causes misery for the rest of society. It only takes a few of these types to put fear into a town of people. Telling them to stop isn't exactly going to work.

miec

Hi Profitius

Whilst you give a compelling arguement for enforced sterilisation, I can never ever agree with you on this one and I have lived amongst the people you describe, I also had to deliver mail (this was in the UK) around some extremely rough estates whereby if you didn't fit in you got burnt out of the place, myself and other collegues at the time got threatened with knives by little kids, as I delivered post I had to avoid the windows in flats because they were always smashing them, so in a sense yes, you are right that these people drag a place down but I can never ever condone enforced sterilisation, maybe I am the black and white thinker here but I feel it is deeply immoral and anti humanity.

boars.ie

Max Headroom wrote: »

..does anyone else think some people should'nt be allowed to re-produce...

BTW..I'm not judging anyone ,its just when you see this and think what could happen....

I used to reiterate that in EU we need the permission to carry
a gun, but on the other hand you can have as many children
as you want and raise them to be psychopathic serial killers
for that instance, and nobody can tell you a word. Even more,
you will get child benefits for that :-)

PS. And yes, you are judging, but that is what forums are for.

jady88

Max Headroom wrote: »

..does anyone else think some people should'nt be allowed to re-produce...
Heres what i saw today....
I'm working in a house on a council estate (it may or may not matter) ...i need to get something from my van, so i go outside ..the van is parked on a narrow road in a cul de sac of about 30 houses all on one side.Opposite is a green embankment leading to a road under construction....theres cars, vans and heavy vehicles all around the works....
As i glance over at the works i notice a small semi-naked girl, no more than 2 or 3 years old climbing up this embankment....she's probably 50 mts away...i look around and theres nobody up or down the road....i called to my customer and he came out quickly ..took one look at the child and said.."ah thats only ***** her oul ones probably still in bed and the other kids left the door open......He went back inside...
He later told me more horror stories that really made me think.....
Would this be a normal thing on estates these days....
BTW..I'm not judging anyone ,its just when you see this and think what could happen....

You obviously are judging... I hate this notion that one can negate anything by saying "I'm not juding".

Max Headroom

jady88 wrote: »

You obviously are judging... I hate this notion that one can negate anything by saying "I'm not juding".

This thread has had some very interesting replies..but youre only imput is the above......mmmm, i'm judging you now...:rolleyes:

For all the intelligent posters on here i finished working in the particular place last week and on reflection i was a bit hasty with my op...things got a lot worse after that.......i wont cause any more upset with what i heard and saw......:eek:..:(..

giddybootz

Hi OP,

While I totally understand you reluctance to do anything at the time of the incident in your 1st post (semi-naked female child + strange man = you coming out looking like the bad guy) would you not now consider anonomously calling social welfare and reporting all you saw and heard the days you were in that area?

As for forced sterilisation...i know i have jokingly said it should be illegal for some people to have kids but I do think that people who want to become/have become pregnant (+their partners) should legally have to complete a parenting course.

Max Headroom

I understand all the "why didnt/dont you" ..etc..posts, but having talked to the guy there really was no point in even giving it a second thought (according to him)..think i'll just have to do that and move on ..

It just saddens me to think of these kids being left almost abandoned for most of the day..looked like a third world country up there some days..:(.

Dudess

boars.ie wrote: »

I used to reiterate that in EU we need the permission to carry a gun, but on the other hand you can have as many children as you want

One day people will stop using the "you need a licence for x but anyone can have a child" cliché as if nobody ever used it before. Not today or tomorrow, but some day...

and raise them to be psychopathic serial killers for that instance, and nobody can tell you a word.

Yes they can.

Even more, you will get child benefits for that :-)

The benefits are for the children. It's preferable that the state doesn't punish them.

The Daily Mail-isms on this thread are hilarious.

miec

I do think that people who want to become/have become pregnant (+their partners) should legally have to complete a parenting course./QUOTE]

This is a much better idea and one I would go with. It might even be a good idea to set up parenting, raising a child in secondary school as part of sex education because it might put off some teenage kids having children and show young people the pressures of parenting.

jady88

Max Headroom wrote: »

This thread has had some very interesting replies..but youre only imput is the above......mmmm, i'm judging you now...:rolleyes:

I'd imagine I'm just one more to add to a rather extensive list. So are you denying that you were in fact, in spite of your inane disclaimer, judging?

Max Headroom

jady88 wrote: »

I'd imagine I'm just one more to add to a rather extensive list. So are you denying that you were in fact, in spite of your inane disclaimer, judging?

Read it whatever way you like...but the more you go on, the more i'm inclined to think you're being a wee bit sensitive about the original issue..why's that now...

jady88

Max Headroom wrote: »

Read it whatever way you like...but the more you go on, the more i'm inclined to think you're being a wee bit sensitive about the original issue..why's that now...

No I see a good deal of sense behind your argument ultimately I disagree with you but I wasn't offended. I just objected because of the statement "i'm not judging" when you were.

Max Headroom

You ,as you said hate the use of the "im not judging" bit..can you let it go now....:rolleyes:

BTW..what arguement are you disagreeing with........my op was more question than statement...

boars.ie

Dudess wrote: »

One day people will stop using the "you need a licence for x but anyone can have a child" cliché as if nobody ever used it before. Not today or tomorrow, but some day...

One day people will stop making meaningless remarks
just because they can click on the reply button.

jady88

Max Headroom wrote: »

You ,as you said hate the use of the "im not judging" bit..can you let it go now....:rolleyes:

Of course so long as you admit you were judging.

Max Headroom wrote: »

BTW..what arguement are you disagreeing with........my op was more question than statement...

The question was backed up with an argument which ultimately made that case that some people ought not be allowed to reproduce. I disagree with you about that. it's a bit, for want of a better word, fascist and I'm not suggesting for one minute that your anything of the sort however I think it is overly controlling.

profitius

jady88 wrote: »

The question was backed up with an argument which ultimately made that case that some people ought not be allowed to reproduce. I disagree with you about that. it's a bit, for want of a better word, fascist and I'm not suggesting for one minute that your anything of the sort however I think it is overly controlling.

Is it fascist too to put people into prison? People can't do what they want especially when it comes to making other peoples lives a misery.