Coughlan's no Einstein

Darsad

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/coughlans-no-einstein-after-gaffe-at-smart-economy-launch-1890227.html

How much longer do we have to suffer this woman and pay her 250K plus a year for the pleasure.
I cant understand how she is one of the FFer's supposedly guaranteed to be returned to the Dail.

Riskymove

so mis-speaking or making a mistake now means you are stupid

what IQ must the Indo be down to at this stage?

Darsad

Riskymove wrote: »

so mis-speaking or making a mistake now means you are stupid

what IQ must the Indo be down to at this stage?

Where does it say she is stupid but in Coughlans case the culmination of all her gaffes would lead one to that conclusion or at least that she is in way over her depth.She was clearly appointed Tanaiste out of friendship and not ability.

murphaph

Indeed. This woman is supposed to be second in command. Frightening really. It's amazing given the high salaries offered, just how many useless people are involved in irish politics and how most decent, intelligent people avoid it like the plague. Most people in the private sector on 106k basic have got something between their ears apart from cute hoorism.

Riskymove

Darsad wrote: »

Where does it say she is stupid .

To make matters worse, the Enterprise, Trade and Employment Minister had just mentioned the Government's strategy of Building Ireland's Smart Economy.

subtle Indo style? I think that is what the article is suggesting

anyway, there are plenty of reasons to be unhappy with her performance (and her pals) but this sort of thing is just tabloid trash

as for

the cumlination of all her gaffes

perhaps you might expand or talk about what her job/Depat should be doing etcso we can have a proper discussion on how she is performing

SLUSK

Darsad wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/coughlans-no-einstein-after-gaffe-at-smart-economy-launch-1890227.html

How much longer do we have to suffer this woman and pay her 250K plus a year for the pleasure.
I cant understand how she is one of the FFer's supposedly guaranteed to be returned to the Dail.

This woman has a uni degree, I have a degree in nothing at all. Looks like uni is a waste of time for some people...

Euro_Kraut

She said the IDA would be marketing Ireland as the innovation island -- "like Einstein explaining his theory of evolution".

Einstein may well have had is own theory of evolution. I see no problem in that.

Really there are bigger sticks to beat this minister with. This is a sneery, pompous article. I wonder when Senan Maloney decided to become a journalist was this the type of article he dreamed of some day writing?

JonathanAnon

Ironic that she was promoting a "smart" economy. Just shows you how poor our top politicians are without their notes. She's an embarrassment as usual, but somebody voted her in.

prinz

As if everyone else had never made a slip up when talking in public. What a ridiculous pointless article. OP you might as well hold everyone to the same standards and fire everyone, public and private, if they've ever made a slip up.

Darsad

If it were just one slip up then there is no way the article would have been penned.She has and rightly so been in the cross hairs since her famous no infamous statement that the public Finances were in order and the Gov was on top of things days before an emergency budget was announced. How the hell could the Tanaiste ie 2nd in command be so far off the mark obviously her colleagues did or do not think enough of her to keep her briefed or she just doesnt listen .

Riskymove

Darsad wrote: »

She has and rightly so been in the cross hairs since her famous no infamous statement that the public Finances were in order and the Gov was on top of things days before an emergency budget was announced. How the hell could the Tanaiste ie 2nd in command be so far off the mark obviously her colleagues did or do not think enough of her to keep her briefed or she just doesnt listen .

oh come on....is she the only politician in the world who engages in spin? do you not think that was the party line she was sent out to say? are all the others open and fully transparant?

were cowen, lenihan et al falling over themselves to tell us we were f^&$ed?

Morgans

Didnt she have to come out and deny that she said "FF first, country second" on the marian finucane show. I wonder how that completely unfounded rumour came out, or maybe there was some truth in it.

Did she not know the number of EU Commissioners as part of the last Lisbon debate? Very quiet on that this time round.

Indeed, her management over FAS has been A1.

I'm sure if there are some people out there who think she is qualified to be in her position and will continue to defend her work. I pretty sure that every one of them who do will have some sort of FF affiliation.

prinz

Morgans wrote: »

Indeed, her management over FAS has been A1..

Er, she has no role in the management or day to day running of FÁS. In her role she was even restrained from firing those who were.

Morgans

Thanks Prinz. I do understand that.

Er, is it like the minister for transport has no control over Irish Rail, Minister for Health has no control over HSE etc etc. Minister for enterprise, trade and employment has no control over state training agency. Ireland ABU.

Riskymove

Morgans wrote: »

Er, is it like the minister for transport has no control over Irish Rail, Minister for Health has no control over HSE etc etc. Minister for enterprise, trade and employment has no control over state training agency. Ireland ABU.

yes

although the Minister usually apoints Board members, and the agencies do usually have to present annual reports, accounts etc. The Board and CEO of FAS resigned over the issue which is correct. I would not seek the resignation of a Minister for ETE over what FAS did, in addition for most of the period in question, she was not the relevant Minister

frankly there have been times when Ministers did control things and then the people got agitated that the Minister could control them (e.g. planning appeals) and so agencies come along

the people can't have it both ways even though they seem to want to sometimes

prinz

Morgans wrote: »

Thanks Prinz. I do understand that..

Really? Then why question her management of an entity she doesn't manage, and has limited control over? Personally I am sick of all these bodies springing up with far too much independence, autonomy and lack of answerability. If I had my way she could've sacked them on the spot. However if ministers had that power the outcry against it would be deafening. Ireland Abú is right, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Morgans

Have the board FAS resigned yet? How long since Ross et at broke the story? I never even hinted that she should resign over the scandal. It is another notch in her incompetence though. She should never have been appointed. How much will the board members in FAS earn as they leave. Roddy Molloy type golden handshakes and pension provisions all round. Fingers crossed.

So, the more reshuffling of the cabinet chairs means the less accountability for the individual ministers. A musical chairs type situation maybe would be best. Allow the Dick Roche's to force through unpopular legislation on the last day of their portfolio every year.

So minister want cabinet accountability on one hand, but fingers do get pointed, they werent over the portfolio at the time. Ministers cant have it both ways.

Martin Manseragh in defending John O'Donoghue expenses started quoting govt jet figures from the last rainbow coalition. It is a shame for FF that they have to go back 12 years to try to deflect blame away from themselves and onto someone else.

Morgans

prinz wrote: »

Really? Then why question her management of an entity she doesn't manage, and has limited control over? Personally I am sick of all these bodies springing up with far too much independence, autonomy and lack of answerability. If I had my way she could've sacked them on the spot. However if ministers had that power the outcry against it would be deafening. Ireland Abú is right, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

You think that if Mary Coughlan sacked the board and started over again, the outcry would be deafening? Just like the appointment of Honohan to replace Hurley caused riots in the streets. The structure isnt the problem, the personnel are. Who the personnel are should be to the agreemnet of the minister.

She has responsibility for FAS. It is part of her portfolio. Arguing whether it merits the term management is simply semantics and a deflection from the real issue. Coughlan's incompetence.

Dublin_Gunner

Well I think the Indo (even being a generally pro FF paper) generally has something against Ms. Coughlan.

In fairness, over the past couple of weeks she has come out with a massive amount of howlers!



Seriously, this woman needs to be gagged, or just not aloud talk to media / at events etc

To follow on to Prinz - I really wish ministers had actually some bloody control over the area's contained within their ministerial appointments. It basically means very few times is anyone ever held accountable for things these days.

Bloody hell, we are paying top dollar to ministers, who are basically just delegators.

Riskymove

Have the board FAS resigned yet?

they are stepping down whenever the Government appoint new Board

I never even hinted that she should resign over the scandal. It is another notch in her incompetence though.

how can the actions of individuals in an organisation contribute to the competence or incompetence of another person?

i dont get this

How much will the board members in FAS earn as they leave. Roddy Molloy type golden handshakes and pension provisions all round. Fingers crossed

.


unlikely, Molloy was a full-time official on a high wage, with pension entitlements etc who retired

the Board members are part-time appointees who generally just get expenses for attending meetings

So, the more reshuffling of the cabinet chairs means the less accountability for the individual ministers. A musical chairs type situation maybe would be best. Allow the Dick Roche's to force through unpopular legislation on the last day of their portfolio every year.

So minister want cabinet accountability on one hand, but fingers do get pointed, they werent over the portfolio at the time. Ministers cant have it both ways.

Martin Manseragh in defending John O'Donoghue expenses started quoting govt jet figures from the last rainbow coalition. It is a shame for FF that they have to go back 12 years to try to deflect blame away from themselves and onto someone else.

If the use of a Governemnt jet is being put forward as a reason for sacking it seems relevant to demonstrate how widespread it is

Riskymove

Morgans wrote: »

She has responsibility for FAS. It is part of her portfolio. Arguing whether it merits the term management is simply semantics and a deflection from the real issue. Coughlan's incompetence.

no it is not

if you want to discuss her incompetence then discuss things that properly fall under her job profile

she is not responsible for the day-to-day running of FAS, she has some geeneral oversight role...she got reports on what went on and ordered an investigation, key FAS staff resigned and now the Board are stepping down following whats in the report....whats wrong with that?

prinz

Morgans wrote: »

You think that if Mary Coughlan sacked the board and started over again, the outcry would be deafening?

Oh no. Of course not now, given the way the economy is going. It's remarkable how society will react differently when the economy is going down as opposed to up. However there is a reason all these bodies began in the first place, care to guess what it was? :rolleyes:

Morgans wrote: »

The structure isnt the problem, the personnel are. Who the personnel are should be to the agreemnet of the minister..

Important words highlighted, she should have the power to sack the board, but she doesn't.

Morgans wrote: »

She has responsibility for FAS. It is part of her portfolio.
Arguing whether it merits the term management is simply semantics and a deflection from the real issue. Coughlan's incompetence.

She can't be held incompetent for something completely outside of her control.

Morgans

You think the actions of Coughlan over the past year at FAS were competent. Board hasnt stepped down yet - despite what you said earlier, that the board had resigned. No they haven't. Why wasnt a new board chosen a year ago, when it was clear? Who was minister then? My guess, given the fun ahead, it will into the new year before legislation will be passed. It's lucky John Gormley asked them to resign.

Again, twice you have assumed that I have looked for a sacking, this time John O Donoghue. Incorrect. I think Ireland of 1997 and 2009 are completely different, and making any comparison between the actions of govts at the time absolutely useless. At least Manseragh, despite the love for Bertie he showed last year, had the balls to discuss the topic.

I am genuinely sorry for running into a FF love-in. I sincerely wasnt aware.

Morgans

Riskymove wrote: »

no it is not

if you want to discuss her incompetence then discuss things that properly fall under her job profile

she is not responsible for the day-to-day running of FAS, she has some geeneral oversight role...she got reports on what went on and ordered an investigation, key FAS staff resigned and now the Board are stepping down following whats in the report....whats wrong with that?

Why did key FAS staff resign? Pressure from govt ministers?

Im sure that she has the power to sack the board. Actually, can you refute the Indo's claim

"Ms Coughlan does have the power to sack the board under the 1987 Labour Services Act."

Riskymove

You think the actions of Coughlan over the past year at FAS were competent.

what do you think she should have done (within her powers)

Board hasnt stepped down yet - despite what you said earlier, that the board had resigned. No they haven't.

you're right ...i thought they had but they ahve said they are stepping down when a new board is appointed

Why wasnt a new board chosen a year ago, when it was clear? Who was minister then?

ther Minister does not choose the Board, only some of them

My guess, given the fun ahead, it will into the new year before legislation will be passed. It's lucky John Gormley asked them to resign.

what legislation?

Again, twice you have assumed that I have looked for a sacking, this time John O Donoghue.

No i did not i responded to your comment about mansergh and I put forward a reason for why the government jet figures may have been put forward

I am genuinely sorry for running into a FF love-in. I sincerely wasnt aware

well as someone who like to find facts and examine reporting in the media I am often accussed of this

if you read my very first post you'll see I am not defending anyone

I am instead attacking cheap story writing in the Indo and also your attempts to judge someone on things that are outside that person's control.....your only answer is to throw labels around...


...i ask for people to discuss her incompetence in relation to things under her control...nothing is forthcoming...

prinz

Morgans wrote: »

I am genuinely sorry for running into a FF love-in. I sincerely wasnt aware.

:rolleyes: Great argument there. You see I don't base my opinions on party politics and a who's who. Just setting out the facts and the rule of law. It's irrelevant what party the minister represents. And no, I am not a FF voter.

Morgans

That is good prinz. Cos I too have no party affiliation, in fact I would come from FF background and naturally incline that way. But,

Coughlan's incompetence:
Didnt she say in the run up to the Lisbon treaty that Germany would have more commissioners than Ireland? Or does it have to do with the enterprise and employment figures from the last year that the incompetence has to be based. Hard to see how she has done anything wrong in that? Her meeting with Micheal Dell meeting is notorious in its success, for instance.

prinz

Morgans wrote: »

"Ms Coughlan does have the power to sack the board under the 1987 Labour Services Act."

From the Act,
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1987/en/act/pub/0015/sec0006.html

(5) The first Director General shall be appointed, and may be removed from office at any time, by the Minister; each subsequent Director General shall be appointed, and may be removed from office at any time, by An Foras with the consent of the Minister.

You see, the minister cannot act unilaterally. Likewise all staff are given the protections afforded other civil servants etc. If you can point out the part of the act which says the minister can sack anybody at FÁS off her own bat could you point it out? Seeing as how the Minister said publicly she would have no problem accpeting resignations, it was as good as a request to the board to offer them.

Morgans

Not the same as saying "I would like the board to resign"

Riskymove

prinz wrote: »

You see, the minister cannot act unilaterally. .

she can in relation to the Board but not staff

Coughlan's incompetence:
Didnt she say in the run up to the Lisbon treaty that Germany would have more commissioners than Ireland? Or does it have to do with the enterprise and employment figures from the last year that the incompetence has to be based. Hard to see how she has done anything wrong in that? Her meeting with Micheal Dell meeting is notorious in its success, for instance.

again the treaty thing is an error, and ok , she should know better but like the notorious "didn't read the treaty" thing I dont think it demonstrates incompetence or otherwise as Min for ETE....perhaps you are coming from the angle that you just dont think she is up to the job of any ministry based on some of these gaffes?...you might expand

The Dell thing, yes thats more like it....more detail please

the main focus i would have on her competence is the lack of things being done to save/create jobs rather than things that are being done badly

prinz

Morgans wrote: »

Not the same as saying "I would like the board to resign"

Would you accept the resignation of the board.......Yes I would.......

How much clearer can she be without breaching protocol, overstepping the boundaries of her position. IMO she handled it very well. She made her feelings public knowledge and the continuace of the board was untenable without the full support and confidence of the minister. Net result - board will go. Job well done.

Any luck finding the section in the Labour Services Act which allows the minister to sack them without their consent?