How do we force a national election? And should we?

SMCG

All evening I've been reading some excellent commentary and opinions on Irish politics on boards.ie. However nothing has given me any hope about the dire circumstances our country is in.
I'm keen to be involved in some sort of protest - but to be honest, where do we begin? It's stupid (isn't it?) protesting for the sake of it, so what are we protesting against? Can we as citizens force, or create a momentum towards, a vote of no confidence in the government? And to be honest, do we want to? Will the next lot not be as bad as this lot? Should we try anyway?
I'm seeking a light at the end of the tunnel.
Any solutions? Or ideas? How can we get ourselves out of this mess?

CUCINA

I feel your pain! I would really love to see the back of these Fianna Fail wasters (and they are literally "wasters", with The Bull o'Donoghue deservedly getting it in the neck at the moment.)
Of course, the problem is that FF have been in power for too long. They have become arrogant and have completely lost the run of themselves.
The alternatives don't look great...I would be a little happier if Enda Kenny was replaced as leader of Fine Gael (but not by Bruton, maybe a dark horse would be Leo Varadker, but his lack of experience counts against him).
In any case, with a bit of luck, we'll have a general election early in the new year. There have been times recently when I got so angry with what has been going on that I began to visualise myself as a sole protester, with a placard, marching back and forth outside the gates of Leinster House!
A real blood-boiler recently was when I heard rumours in the "meeja" that Bertie fancied putting himself forward as Mayor of Dublin (don't even whisper anything about the Aras!). If he ended up there, then I would really be tempted to to picket the Mansion House!
I can think of a more appropriate kind of accommodation for Bertie, a place a lot less luxurious, where someone in a uniform (but not a butler!) would be serving him porridge for breakfast, dinner and tea.

ghost_ie

SMCG wrote: »

All evening I've been reading some excellent commentary and opinions on Irish politics on boards.ie. However nothing has given me any hope about the dire circumstances our country is in.
I'm keen to be involved in some sort of protest - but to be honest, where do we begin? It's stupid (isn't it?) protesting for the sake of it, so what are we protesting against? Can we as citizens force, or create a momentum towards, a vote of no confidence in the government? And to be honest, do we want to? Will the next lot not be as bad as this lot? Should we try anyway?
I'm seeking a light at the end of the tunnel.
Any solutions? Or ideas? How can we get ourselves out of this mess?

I think this is partly why we feel so angry - there's so many things that are going wrong in this country and we're powerless. The government continues to do as it likes, claiming huge salaries and unvouched expenses while the rest of us suffer. Maybe that could be a rallying point, with placards demanding a 50% cut in politicians' wages and all expense claims to be accompanied by receipts.

is_that_so

We can't unless the Govt loses a vote of confidence, can't get their budget through or call an election themselves.

Amhran Nua

They can lose NAMA, lose Lisbon, and parade around the Oireachtas buildings in negligees and there is no way for the people of Ireland to force them out. Some of us have started a new political party to provide some measure of response for when the next GE is called, but getting things rolling is tricky.

meglome

Amhran Nua wrote: »

They can lose NAMA, lose Lisbon, and parade around the Oireachtas buildings in negligees and there is no way for the people of Ireland to force them out. Some of us have started a new political party to provide some measure of response for when the next GE is called, but getting things rolling is tricky.

True we'll have to bide our time and give them what they deserve when the time comes.

kmick

Patience - their time will come. Unfortunately it will be after a Lisbon yes vote and the economy will proabbly be in some sort of painfully slow recovery so its likely they will scrape in again. As my boss says FF's greatest weapon is Enda Kenny.

Amhran Nua

That does underline the problem though doesn't it, all they need is to let the opposition lose, and they are back in. One could be forgiven for thinking that FG almost likes the opposition benches.

Anyway if anyone wants to get involved in a new party, what we're doing is here.

LostinBlanch

You're pointing out a huge hole in the "democratic process" at the moment. This vaccuum where people are rightly angry and know bloody well that they have no control over events is dangerous for democracy and society as a whole.

If this was any functioning democracy there would be huge demonstrations in the streets letting the f*ckers in govt know exactly what we think of their behaviour. But this is Ireland so nothing will happen. Business as usual lads.

Drumpot

LostinBlanch wrote: »

You're pointing out a huge hole in the "democratic process" at the moment. This vaccuum where people are rightly angry and know bloody well that they have no control over events is dangerous for democracy and society as a whole.

If this was any functioning democracy there would be huge demonstrations in the streets letting the f*ckers in govt know exactly what we think of their behaviour. But this is Ireland so nothing will happen. Business as usual lads.

Dont know whats worse . .

Being under a dictator and not feeling like you have any control over your life .

Or

Living in a "democratic society" that constantly votes in morally corrupt people based on their "celebrity status" as opposed to their credentials and not feeling like you have control over your life.

Lets be honest. . I dont necessarily think that all people in politics are corrupt. How are they any differant from people who work in public or private companies that take advantage of the "loopholes" that over compensate them? They feel they are entitled to certain remunerations because thats the environment that we (the people) allowed to grow into the best we hear about today. .

I hate to say it, but I have less confidence in the electorate in this country then I do with the government we currently have . Voting out FF is not the answer. Voting in credible, ethically/morally sound people who are competent and focused on whats good for the overall success of the country.

We vote out FF, and we will vote in some other fella's who will continue to take advantage of the "perks" of the job . .

If we all took to the street, there would be an election . . Make no bone about it. We do have control of our country but as individuals we feel "stuck in a rut" thanks to the many who vote for celebritys and cute Hooers . . Shame on them . .

Liam Byrne

At least if we had one dictator, we'd only be paying one lot of ridiculous wages and expenses.....

.....and if he were an FF-style dictator, it'd only require one bullet!

population

We need the Greens to pull out over NAMA. I dont see it happening and when the next election comes they'll cease to exist for their collusion in this heist.

The only other thing that could force an election is Lisbon 2 getting a NO vote. Could be a dangerous game to play but I know which way I am voting

Drumpot

population wrote: »

We need the Greens to pull out over NAMA. I dont see it happening and when the next election comes they'll cease to exist for their collusion in this heist.

The only other thing that could force an election is Lisbon 2 getting a NO vote. Could be a dangerous game to play but I know which way I am voting

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong. If you dont agree with Lisbon, fair enough, but voting No in spite of them is, to put it mildly, narrow minded.

Cork Boy

or we could vote yes to lisbon to get 'dail eireann' to lose some bit of power over us...

Brussells or Leinster House? Give me brussels any day

SkepticOne

Drumpot wrote: »

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong.

Depends on your priorities surely?

Phototoxin

They can lose NAMA, lose Lisbon, and parade around the Oireachtas buildings in negligees and there is no way for the people of Ireland to force them out. Some of us have started a new political party to provide some measure of response for when the next GE is called, but getting things rolling is tricky.

armoured cars and tanks and guns?

Drumpot

SkepticOne wrote: »

Depends on your priorities surely?

Suppose it depends on your point of view . .

I will vote on something based on its merits.

I believe that voting no on lisbon to give the fingers to the government or look for an election is cutting your nose off despite your face. I dont pretend to understand the complexities of the Lisbon Treaty, but from what I do understand, most parties (except the ones I would never dream of following) believe that when all is said and done, it is better that we vote yes. I do believe that while parties can have their agenda's, in this case the big ones simply can't afford to play political games when the country is in such a shambles..

And anyways, as somebody else said, surely giving Europe more power over the governing of our country isnt necessarily a bad thing considering how bad the Irish People are at picking governments . .

Fluffybums

Protesting to try and force a general election is all well and good, but I hear so often that "this lot may be bad but what is the alternative, they are worse". And there seems to be a tendency to vote for the chap whose Daddy/uncle/brother was a good TD/councillor (how many of the current visitors to the tough are related to the founding fathers of the republic) or so and so was a great GAA man. Just because a relative was a great man/woman does not make junior any better than a short plank (which at least can be turned into a shelf). As for FF/FG divide the civil war was 80 years ago can we please have a divide based on political principal.

Don't know who said it but 'the people get the government they deserve'.

If we continue to vote based on an 80 year old civil war and heredity then nothing will change.

population

Drumpot wrote: »

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong. If you dont agree with Lisbon, fair enough, but voting No in spite of them is, to put it mildly, narrow minded.

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on a fair European treaty and not one obtained under duress

Drumpot

population wrote: »

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on Lisbon and not one obtained under duress

If it is true (I dont necessarily know if it is) that Ireland will be isolated by voting no and it will have serious financial ramifications for our economy, then by voting no to upset FF, only serves to make one wrong (by voting in FF in the first place) even worse, by voting for another wrong (voting no in spite of them) to prove a point. . .

My opinion is that its this very way of voting that has this country in the state its in. . .

People don't vote based on their knowledge of something or by weighing up all the pro's and Con's of something, more on their raw emotions and in spite of things. . .

irish_bob

CUCINA wrote: »

I feel your pain! I would really love to see the back of these Fianna Fail wasters (and they are literally "wasters", with The Bull o'Donoghue deservedly getting it in the neck at the moment.)
Of course, the problem is that FF have been in power for too long. They have become arrogant and have completely lost the run of themselves.
The alternatives don't look great...I would be a little happier if Enda Kenny was replaced as leader of Fine Gael (but not by Bruton, maybe a dark horse would be Leo Varadker, but his lack of experience counts against him).
In any case, with a bit of luck, we'll have a general election early in the new year. There have been times recently when I got so angry with what has been going on that I began to visualise myself as a sole protester, with a placard, marching back and forth outside the gates of Leinster House!
A real blood-boiler recently was when I heard rumours in the "meeja" that Bertie fancied putting himself forward as Mayor of Dublin (don't even whisper anything about the Aras!). If he ended up there, then I would really be tempted to to picket the Mansion House!
I can think of a more appropriate kind of accommodation for Bertie, a place a lot less luxurious, where someone in a uniform (but not a butler!) would be serving him porridge for breakfast, dinner and tea.

agree about leo varadakar although i dont think he would be palatable to the majority as he comes across as snooty , its a pity mariead mcguinness chose to run in the wrong constituency in 2007 , she would have gotten elected had she ran in the constituency in which she lives instead of running where she was born , she is extremley popular and being a woman , has an advantage with half the population , of course she being an MEP probabley rules her out as a contender

population

Drumpot wrote: »

If it is true (I dont necessarily know if it is) that Ireland will be isolated by voting no and it will have serious financial ramifications for our economy, then by voting no to upset FF, only serves to make one wrong (by voting in FF in the first place) even worse, by voting for another wrong (voting no in spite of them) to prove a point. . .

My opinion is that its this very way of voting that has this country in the state its in. . .

People don't vote based on their knowledge of something or by weighing up all the pro's and Con's of something, more on their raw emotions and in spite of things. . .

I have never voted FF in my life so please do not try put my fingerprints on that trainwreck.

Also I have done a fair bit of reading on Lisbon so I have weighed up where I stand on it. The NO camp is riddled with Shinners and Looneys whom I have nothing in common with and do not wish to be seen voting in alliance with but I feel I must despite some of the stick I am taking.

So to suggest that I am just voting one way because I am being emotional and ignorant of the issues is wrong. As I have outlined previously I feel offended that my vote was not respected and I do not trust FF period. If a party or a politician I respect negotiates a better European treaty I will vote for it.

If my vote helps bring down the Govt then bonus a plenty. I merely answered a question earlier on about what could actually bring them down. Also I did in fact say that voting NO with only bringing FF down in mind was a dangerous game.

irish_bob

Drumpot wrote: »

Voting No on Lisbon because you dont like the government is wrong. If you dont agree with Lisbon, fair enough, but voting No in spite of them is, to put it mildly, narrow minded.

narrow minded and self defeating

Mr. Presentable

population wrote: »

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on a fair European treaty and not one obtained under duress

Ah, so voting a second time is wrong, but a third would be OK?

And we wonder why the NO side has no credibility........................

SkepticOne

Drumpot wrote: »

then by voting no to upset FF, only serves to make one wrong (by voting in FF in the first place) even worse, by voting for another wrong (voting no in spite of them) to prove a point. . .

You might have the view - and I'm not saying it is correct or that you should vote on that basis - but you might have the view that a No result would more than merely upset FF.

irish_bob

population wrote: »

Well I am voting NO on Lisbon for a multitude of reasons, not least the fact that my original vote was not respected which I find offensive. However back on to what I was saying if my vote helps bring down this govt and it is the only way in which I can make that happen, then wild horses wouldnt make me vote YES.

Also I disagree that voting NO on Lisbon because you dont like the Govt is wrong. I do not trust them to represent me in Europe, I would rather this govt fell and a competent govt led us towards an actual YES on a fair European treaty and not one obtained under duress

we voted twice in referendums seeking to legalise divorce , nothing unsual about voting twice

population

nipplenuts wrote: »

Ah, so voting a second time is wrong, but a third would be OK?

And we wonder why the NO side has no credibility........................

Read my post please.

If a different and fairer treaty is put to me I will vote for it. I never said I would vote for Lisbon

population

irish_bob wrote: »

we voted twice in referendums seeking to legalise divorce , nothing unsual about voting twice

On the EXACT same thing?????

radioactiveman

I think we should force a national election simply on account of the way NAMA has been formulated.
There hasn't been enough debate at all on:
1. Whether we should have NAMA at all, and whether other better, banks would step in to fill the gap in the market (which they would).
2. Not enough debate on the discount for the loans. The price paid for the loans should not be one penny above the market rate. I seriously doubt the market rate at the moment is 30% below the original price. If I could get -30% on my house bought during the boom I'd be delighted. Why should this be different for developers? It's blatant cronyism.

Why should ordinary people be forced to pay for it out of the pension fund for fecks sake?

As a citizen I have a real problem accepting this and I would be prepared to protest against it and petition against it to prove my point as I think this is the only way of forcing further debate and a change of government.

Drumpot

SkepticOne wrote: »

You might have the view - and I'm not saying it is correct or that you should vote on that basis - but you might have the view that a No result would more than merely upset FF.

To vote no to get at FF is ridiculous . . Simply ridiculous . .

If a person voted yes the first time and are voting no simply because they have to vote again, its childish and unhelpful. If they are voting no, it should be because they dont agree with the cotents of the referendum. .

As I said, this is EXACTLY why we are in the position we are in today. Saying "I didnt vote for FF" means nothing, because the whole political system in this country is fked up. There is a culture (not just in FF) in our politics that just stinks and its people voting based on these kind of attitudes that has caused it. .

Did any of you non FF's take to the streets when the times were great and demand that they be striped from power? How proactive where you in trying to drum up support against them? The truth is that most people just went along with things while the times were good enough. I voted FG and Independent in the last two elections but Im not hiding behind the weak "i didnt vote for FF" arguement, as its only trying to put the blame on everybody else (another fatal flaw of the mindset of the people of this country, blame somebody else).

If anything, knowing the importance of a yes (since one person mentioned they voted yes the first time) and voting no in spite of the government is worse then not knowing anything about the treaty and simply voting no. . .

And we laugh at the yanks for voting in Bush twice, perhaps many people voted for bush in spite of the democrats . . Does that make it right ?:rolleyes:

Amhran Nua

Phototoxin wrote: »

armoured cars and tanks and guns?

Hahah, nothing so dramatic, flyers and placards are about the limit of it. We already have all the policies and long term goals for the country in place, so next thing is to get 300 names on a piece of paper to get officially registered, then we can hit the press like a hammer. Feel free to join up!

Drumpot wrote: »

My opinion is that its this very way of voting that has this country in the state its in. . .

As you've pointed out, its by no means unique to Ireland.

Drumpot

Amhran Nua wrote: »

As you've pointed out, its by no means unique to Ireland.

Which doesn't make it right. .

Just means that there's many many people voting a certain way for the wrong reasons around the world, then for the right ones . .

Amhran Nua

Drumpot wrote: »

Just means that there's many many people voting a certain way for the wrong reasons around the world, then for the right ones . .

This phenomenon is so well known that its a wonder the government PR people haven't taken advantage of it. FF asleep at the wheel again?

Drumpot

Amhran Nua wrote: »

This phenomenon is so well known that its a wonder the government PR people haven't taken advantage of it. FF asleep at the wheel again?

Good point . .

Perhaps FF should of been pushing a "No". .

Cool Mo D

It isn't actually that difficult to get the Government out. All you have to do is find a few TDs who care more about being re-elected than the fate of their party. Since FF are in power, there are no shortage of them.

If you want to get the Government out, street protests are a waste of time. Identify a few TDs in trouble in their constituency, and start writing letters, going to their clinics, writing into local media, with one simple message - leave Government or you will lose your seat.

If you want to change the Government, you need to be smart. Targeted action to be effective. Put specific individuals under personal pressure!

Amhran Nua

Drumpot wrote: »

Good point . .

Perhaps FF should of been pushing a "No". .

Maybe they secretly want a No vote? Ah wheels within wheels, you could go mad. I went mad about six months ago and started a political party.

Drumpot

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Maybe they secretly want a No vote? Ah wheels within wheels, you could go mad. I went mad about six months ago and started a political party.

The plot thickens . .

dvpower

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Identify a few TDs in trouble in their constituency, and start writing letters, going to their clinics, writing into local media, with one simple message - leave Government or you will lose your seat.

Won't a FF TD who breaks ranks now and brings down the government find it difficult in get reselected on a FF ticket in a general election?

Much as I dislike FF, I'm not sure that a general election at the moment is in our best interests. I'd be willing to bide my time until the next election and screw them into the ground then. (Mind you, I've been doing this for the last 20 years with little or no effect)

LostinBlanch

A growing disconnect between the current regime and citizens is opening. Governments need the permission of the people to rule. They don't have that and know it but are trying to ignore this and bluff their way through. Ignoring this is dangerous and damages democracy.

It leaves space for other groups with their own agendas to grow. God knows we have our own loopers like RIRA CIRA etc. How long before one of them starts acting like the Baader Meinhoff / Red Army Faction in the 70's and early 80's and target bankers and property developers in an attempt to broaden their appeal? God knows they've got the guns. And there's enough anger out there and it's only going to get stronger and stronger when people realise exactly how much they've been ripped off, treated like sh*t and how powerless they are to change things.

You know what, I think that some people would have a more ambivalent attitude to this kind of thing than previously. if those targetted were the Seanie Fitz's and Fingers of this world who are getting off scot free.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not advocating anything like this, but just looking at things that may happen further down the line.

Dangerous times we're living in.

Sorry if this appears overdramatic but it's just that it seems to me that things are going to get a lot worse.

I'd love to be proven wrong though.

leonardjos

Even though I was in favour of the Lisbon Treaty until yesterday, it has now become clear to me that the only way to stop NAMA and get rid of Fianna Fail is to

VOTE NO TO THE LISBON TREATY.

The effects of voting no are minor on the European agenda. They will realise that it relates to the NAMA proposal. We can just have another referendum when the new government comes in

But rejecting Lisbon from a position of strong approval in recent polls, would be the final nail in the coffin of this FF-led government. We can get them out before they manage to ram NAMA down our throats!

The government has no mandate for NAMA and we are having no say (either through a general election or a referendum). Since we are not getting a vote on NAMA, the only course of action remaining is to vote no on Lisbon. :mad:

Amhran Nua

leonardjos wrote: »

But rejecting Lisbon from a position of strong approval in recent polls, would be the final nail in the coffin of this FF-led government.

Why, they can hold on as long as they like.

Count Dooku

Cool Mo D wrote: »

If you want to get the Government out, street protests are a waste of time.

Street protests are not working due media blockade.
Non of Irish newspapers published report about protest on Saturday 12, only BBC published photo from protest, where you can see how many people attended.
I hope that nobody has illusions anymore that Irish newspapers are for Irish people. Irish newspapers only for Irish political establishment, they will publish information about individuals, but will ignore facts that many people don’t trust politicians anymore.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Identify a few TDs in trouble in their constituency, and start writing letters, going to their clinics, writing into local media, with one simple message - leave Government or you will lose your seat.

If you want to change the Government, you need to be smart. Targeted action to be effective. Put specific individuals under personal pressure!

I would add that don’t do it alone, involve your friends as well.
It must be war without rules.
All existing politicians must be wiped out from political landscape, nobody should be spared. At least it will give good lesson to next generation of politicians, otherwise they will screw country even more

SMCG

Count Dooku wrote: »

Street protests are not working due media blockade.
Non of Irish newspapers published report about protest on Saturday 12, only BBC published photo from protest, where you can see how many people attended.
I hope that nobody has illusions anymore that Irish newspapers are for Irish people. Irish newspapers only for Irish political establishment, they will publish information about individuals, but will ignore facts that many people don’t trust politicians anymore.

Oh no I'm so dissappointed to see this in the BBC website, when I heard nothing I assumed nothing had happened. This is the worst news - how could we be or feel more powerless?

User21027

The problem with our economy is fundamental still. It needs reformed from Grass Roots up. Things like legislation that allows for multiple pensions for multiple positions held should be scrapped effective immediately., I've had numerous jobs in my life but i'll only get one state pension like everybody else.
Legislation that NO HSE staff can be sacked is crazy. It was meant to protect jobs during the amalgamation of the health boards ONLY,
and it would get rid of 1,000's of people doing literally nothing and getting a min of 30k per year for it.
40c in every €1 is spent on administration in the HSE, sohow is it that your file goes missing when so many 'experts' are in charge of it?
€100,000 a year salaries for exGuards as Ministerial drivers is a crime. How many taxi men are working 90 hour weeks just to come home with a salary equal to minimum wage? And a Guard on his full pension is getting 100k per year to drive minister's around in 09 D free cars? Criminal!!
Expenses should be broken down into "constituency offices expenses" and "expenses incurred while on duty", to allow for full disclosure of payment. The people in charge of these expenses should be retired economists or something. Independent people. not members of the FF party.
Brian Cowen wants to bring in new legislation to stop expenses being abused, all he has to do is sack the people who have been approving them thus far- oh wait- that was him as minister for finance!!
See FF is riddled with back scratchers. When J O'Donohue was Min for Arts etc Brian Cowen signed off on his expenses. They are buddies see..
Brian Cowen owns property in the UK etc too, so he's not gonns screw the developers cos they have dirt on him.
Over 80% of pubs in Ireland are owned by TD's so the zero tolerance for drink driving will never be brought in cos our rural networks are not able to provide alternative transport to the drinkers if they DID leave their cars at home... Its all a huge, intricate web of deceit. Its easier to throw more money at it, this time 54 billion, and tax us to pay for it, than it is to fix everything.

The health service could be state of the art without spening a dime. Like the Amercian example. Get the wheelchairs back that were never returned, crutches etc. Get people to pay their bills. Reduce the consultants money. Do more operations. Make all staff work at least 8 full hours a day, not consultants going home around 2pm for Golf, and reduce waiting lists. These are all jobs that people are currently being paid to do, but are not doing properly. But no-one revisies it, and where is the incentive to work hard if you cannot be sacked. see it goes round and round...

Even when scandals are exposed in the papers about wasted money. NO-ONE is held accountable. Mary Coughlan gave Rody Molloy from Fás another 1.4 million pension top-up after he wasted over €622,000 on an advert that never aired, €9,000 on a car for a raffle that was never held etc etc Was he sacked, did she sack him? NO She rewarded him! How can we, the Irish people, stomach this? SOMEONE got that free car. Thats theft!! And believe in them to take us, honestly, out of this recession? How can we trust the people put in charge of over-seeing NAMA not to scoop the cream off the top of it too? Who will be caught stealing from it? You can be guaranteed someone will, more jobs for the boys, not qualified accountants. Plus, its only getting reviewed every 5 yrs. Its only meant to last for 10 years before it breaks even. I'd be keeping a closer eye on my 55 billion!!!!
But they know they wont make the next election and then it will be someone elses problem.

User21027

Even if NAMA was a great idea, which i dont believe it is, i cannot trust something which is overseen by crooked politicians, thieves, liars and cheats. They are all the same really so i can offer no alternative but FF to handle 55 billion? Not on a good day.
Even look at the Dáil after Lenihan finished waffling on- nearly every seat in the house emptied!! There was a stampeed, so bad that when Caoimhín O'Caoiláinn tried to speak our Ceann Comhairle had to ring the bell, and wait for silence- So many TD made a break for the door.
So eager were they to get home, cos lets face it, once they clock in the get paid for the day, they get €55 per day expenses etc - there is nothing left to sit there for. Unless someone is actually interested in the responses of the opposition- Ha yeah right- No, once FF got their piece said the house all but emptied.

At one stage Enda Kenny was addressing Lenihan when he got up and left, i assume for a toilet break- How can a minister be allowed to leave the house when he is being directly addresses by another TD? How rude!!

Enda Kenny, i note was the ONLY TD/ minister sitting up interestingly and listening to all points of view. Most of FF were sleeping, (then again thats what 70 year olds do a lot) and the greens etc were chatting amongst themselves! Again how rude!!
Brian Cowen was not taking notes from Enda Kenny to rebuke him on anything but got up hot headed and red faced and screamed his reply back. The Greens, John Gormley in particular, sat proping his head up with his hand for it through-out.
That does not instill confidence in the viewing public!!

I dont see myself staying in this country. I am a true republican, and i have great pride in my country. My mother being burned out of Ardoyne at age 17 while babysitting her 7 bro's and sis's by protestants she grew up with when the troubles started. I have great interest in our countries past, history, politics etc But FF have ruined it irrepairably, and now my grandkids will be paying off NAMA.

I'm stomached.

Riskymove

40c in every €1 is spent on administration in the HSE, sohow is it that your file goes missing when so many 'experts' are in charge of it?

The HSE is the single biggest issue in public spending really; the vested interests have ruled for too long and badly needs tackling

€100,000 a year salaries for exGuards as Ministerial drivers is a crime. How many taxi men are working 90 hour weeks just to come home with a salary equal to minimum wage? And a Guard on his full pension is getting 100k per year to drive minister's around in 09 D free cars? Criminal!!

I think you mixed soemthing up on this one, Minister's drivers are active Guards not retired ones

Expenses should be broken down into "constituency offices expenses" and "expenses incurred while on duty", to allow for full disclosure of payment.

I agree

The people in charge of these expenses should be retired economists or something. Independent people. not members of the FF party.

FF people are not in charge of expenses. I thing publication and clarification as mentioned above would remove the need for much of this tbh

Brian Cowen wants to bring in new legislation to stop expenses being abused, all he has to do is sack the people who have been approving them thus far- oh wait- that was him as minister for finance!!

yep

See FF is riddled with back scratchers. When J O'Donohue was Min for Arts etc Brian Cowen signed off on his expenses. They are buddies see..

Min of fincnace would have no role in approving expenses of another minister.

Brian Cowen owns property in the UK etc too, so he's not gonns screw the developers cos they have dirt on him.

he's free to invest abroad if he likes surely?

Over 80% of pubs in Ireland are owned by TD's so the zero tolerance for drink driving will never be brought in cos our rural networks are not able to provide alternative transport to the drinkers if they DID leave their cars at home...

there are TDs who are pub owners, but 80%? dont think so. TBH if it was that easy the limit would never be reduced, random breath testing never brought in etc

The health service could be state of the art without spening a dime. Like the Amercian example.

The US system is usaully held up as a bad example not a good one

Even when scandals are exposed in the papers about wasted money. NO-ONE is held accountable. Mary Coughlan gave Rody Molloy from Fás another 1.4 million pension top-up after he wasted over €622,000 on an advert that never aired, €9,000 on a car for a raffle that was never held

Roddy Molloy resigned over his expenses really not the other stuff you mentioned

Idbatterim

could the greens not have scuppered nama by threatening to pull out of governement, and doing so, if the government did force it through. Over the past few months my opinion of the greens has gone from, whatever to not wanting to see them in government again ever! can they come up with any other proposal that raising the tax on already over taxed items such as fuel etc?