While driving under the speed limit can you be done for dangerous driving?

Sleepy

Say for instance you were doing 100 on a road with a speed limit of 120 can you be charged with dangerous driving if the conditions (e.g. fog / icy road) would suggest you should be driving below that speed?

**Timbuk2**

As far as I know, no.

The speed limit is just the maximum speed you are able to drive. You should always adjust your speed to suit the conditions - and in case of fog or ice it is advisable to slow your speed down to allow you to be able to react to a hazard.

As long as it is within reason (e.g. not doing 20km/h on a 120km/h road without good reason!)

mcaul

Absolutely 100%. The speed limit is the MAXIMUM speed you are legally allowed to do in good driving conditions. However, it is for you to know how to drive safely within a speed suitable for the pertaining road conditions, your experience and the type of vehicle you are driving.

If you have been charged with dangerous driving, I would not base any defence on driving below the speed limit!

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0053.html

ttm

Take another situation then thick FOG you can just see the fog lamp of the car in front of you on a main road and have reduced your speed to 40km/h which seems to be the speed everyone else is driving at to maintain a sencible stopping distance, the traffic coming towards you is only visible when about 30M away with headlights on.

Then some idiot who thinks everyone else is stupid and driving to slow starts weaving in and out over taking at 80km/h. That driver couldn't be stoped and charged with dangerous driving?

MagicMarker

You don't have to be breaking the limit to be driving dangerously.

Dangerous driving means just that.

cyclopath2001

ttm wrote: »

Then some idiot who thinks everyone else is stupid and driving to slow starts weaving in and out over taking at 80km/h. That driver couldn't be stoped and charged with dangerous driving?

It might be practically dangerous to try and stop such an idiot. But, what you describe is likely to constitute dangerous driving.

It's a matter of common sense and observation of the effect of the driver's behaviour on others.

ttm

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It might be practically dangerous to try and stop such an idiot.

I nearly commented such.

Its very frustrating to see that sort of dangerous driving and know that they are unlikely to get stopped, not only because of the danger that might cause but also because resources that could stop the driver will more than likely be used up by accidents caused by other idiots who can't adjust their driving to the road conditions.

Dartz

Speed Camera's don't stop dangerous drivers.

They stop speeders.


Dangerous driving and driving fast are 2 different things.

Seth Brundle

I was driving past a school @ 49km/h with my eyes closed and managed to knock down seven kids and two parents. Feckin garda had the nerve to accuse me of driving dangerously even though I was under the speed limit. I wasn't even swerving that much!

mickdw

Is this question for real or am I reading it wrong. Can you be charged for dangerous driving while under the speed limit - Yes obviously if you happen to be acting dangerously.

DriveSkill

You seem to be confusing two different issues.

Exceeding the speed limit is simply that - speeding - it is not necessarily dangerous driving (in the legal sense).

On the other hand dangerous driving is a specific offence and is not necessarily related to the speed you are doing. For example, if you are driving down the center of the road and causing cars to swerve out of your way you could be charged with dangerous driving even if you are within the speed limit.

So, you can certainly be charged with dangerous driving while under the speed limit but being under the speed limit in and of itself is not dangerous driving!

Seth Brundle

All speeding is dangerous!
Every km over the limit results in ten times that amount of children dying!

stevenmu

I think the question is could speed alone constitute dangerous driving when below the limit, not could weaving in and out of traffic with your eyes closed while talking on the phone and drinking coffee and fixing you makeup and running down a school while under the speed limit

To answer, I don't know, I suspect it's possible and would probably depend on the conditions and the reaction of any Gardaí who happened to see you. For e.g. if you're doing 100 in a 120 zone and it's raining pretty heavily and a Garda spots you and thinks "hmm that guy should probably be going a bit slower", I'd doubt it would be dangerous driving. On the other hand if there was snow and ice and heavy fog and the Garda thought "jesus christ that guy's going to kill us all", then I'd guess it would be.




edit: as a simple test, try putting yourself in the head of a boy racer. If at any point you find yourself thinking "I'm a bleedin' deadly driver, I can handle this no bother, sure didn't I put a Type-R badge on the back o' me corsa for extra dowwwnforce maaaan" then you're about to crash and you really need to slow down.

bladebrew

yup,it happened to me it was originally a dangerous driving charge but was dropped on the day to careless driving,the speed i was doing (less than the 50km/h limit) had absolutely nothing to do with it,

so definetly you can get charged with dangerous driving no matter what speed you are doing,

as to whether a guard would pull you over and charge you with dangerous driving for doing 100km/h in fog is a different story,i doubt the guard would risk driving that fast in bad conditions, there is only a certain amount of risk they will take before they stop,

ps maybe the gardai are mad and will chase people on a motorway in fog

Robbo

Dangerous driving is a serious offence with a reasonably heavy burden of proof.

A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case (including the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.

In the circumstances outlined by the OP, Careless Driving (S.52) is a more appropriate charge. Moreover, proving this would be a whole bag of fun.

Davidth88

You know my initial reaction to the OP was , what a stupid question .. of course you can. ( OP bear with me )

However , it opens an interesting and useful debate which has been approached many times on this forum.

The way that traffic is policed , where there seems to be an over reliance on speeding . It's a nice convenient transgression of the law, ie it's measurable , and by and large the transgressor cannot argue when caught. Drink driving falls into a similar catagory , but it's harder to catch someone ( ie you have to stop them )

For other things like dangerous driving , it's a little subjective. Of course the examples that other posters have put here are obvious , but the fact they had to exagrate to get their point across sort of proves how difficult this could be to prove in a court of law.

We all see what could be described as dangerous driving , almost every day , for example overtaking on the brow of a hill etc . How many times do we wish we had blue lights we could switch on ...

So OP , actually thanks for posing this question.

Raven13

It really depends on the driver. Some people could drive at 130km/h and be way less dangerous than others driving 60km/h. Quite often the most dangerous ones are the slow drivers - they have no confidence, little skills and make crazy decisions (by slow driver I mean someone who would not go over 70km/h where the limit is set at 100km/h).

Sometimes driving faster is safer, for example it is very dangerous to join a dual carriage way from acceleration lane if you're driving too slow! Some people don't understand that the lane is meant for ACCELERATION.. you can't join the road driving 50km/h, that would be considered dangerous driving.

Sleepy

Ok, obviously more details required:

I asked the question in relation to an accident I was involved in where another driver pulled out turning across my right of way (i.e. turning right) and has made a report of dangerous driving against me because I was going 'too fast' despite being a good 15k under the limit of the road in question which had a speed limit of 80k. I had to brake to avoid hitting the side of his vehicle at that speed , my car skidded across the median line and ended up colliding with the front driver's side corner of his vehicle.

To my mind, the dangerous / careless driving was on his part in that his actions (pulling out despite oncoming traffic) forced me to have to brake hard. He argues that I was driving too fast for the conditions if my jamming on the brakes caused me to skid.

There's both sides of the coin as best I can present them being an involved party. I was happy enough to leave this as a civil matter but the other party seems to have decided to report me for dangerous driving in the hope that if the case sticks it would automatically mean my insurance would have to cover the costs rather than the other way around...

stealthyspeeder

If you are drifting round a corner sideways at about 60 kmph and the speed limit on the road is 80 kmph, Im pretty sure that you could get done for dangerous driving.

Which is a shame as I love seeing cars sticking the rear out when goin round the bends! (when there is no oncoming traffic of course!)

DriveSkill

Were the Gardai called at the time ? Is there a record of skid-marks, brakeing distance etc ?

If so, and it can be proven that you were well under the limit (and assuming we are not talking about extreme conditions like snow or ice) then I dont see you being at fault if he turned into your path giving you insufficient time/distance to stop safely. I mean there are lots of other potential contributary factors such as the state of your tyres etc etc but lets assume they are all perfect!

Remember, he can give his version of events and claim all sorts about dangerous driving but at the end of the day the Gardai make the final decision on whether to charge you with careless or dangerous driving - not the other party! That decision will be based on evidence at the scene and any other eye-witness accounts.

Unfortunately if there are no witnesses or evidence and it ends up with just your word against his it could end up as 50/50 in terms of damages.

Fighting Irish

kbannon wrote: »

All speeding is dangerous!
Every km over the limit results in ten times that amount of children dying!

lol no

Eoin

kbannon wrote: »

I was driving past a school @ 49km/h with my eyes closed and managed to knock down seven kids and two parents.

In all fairness, he might not know how hard it is to shave and use a laptop while driving.

me_right_one

Sleepy wrote: »

Ok, obviously more details required:

I asked the question in relation to an accident I was involved in where another driver pulled out turning across my right of way (i.e. turning right) and has made a report of dangerous driving against me because I was going 'too fast' despite being a good 15k under the limit of the road in question which had a speed limit of 80k. I had to brake to avoid hitting the side of his vehicle at that speed , my car skidded across the median line and ended up colliding with the front driver's side corner of his vehicle.

To my mind, the dangerous / careless driving was on his part in that his actions (pulling out despite oncoming traffic) forced me to have to brake hard. He argues that I was driving too fast for the conditions if my jamming on the brakes caused me to skid.

There's both sides of the coin as best I can present them being an involved party. I was happy enough to leave this as a civil matter but the other party seems to have decided to report me for dangerous driving in the hope that if the case sticks it would automatically mean my insurance would have to cover the costs rather than the other way around...

Going by that, you're totally in the clear, and the other driver was totally wrong. If they reported you for dangerous driving, and no guards were there to witness this alleged act, you can do the exact same.

Even if you were above the speed limit, the other driver still pulled out in front of an oncoming 1 tonne piece of steel. They're in the wrong. You're speeding would be a different issue, and unless its provable, (ie if both your cars ended up 100m down the road in the direction YOU were travelling), you're sitting pretty.

If I was you, I'd report THEM to the guards too. Covers your ass blame wise as it might look a bit defeatest if they accused you, but you didnt accuse them.

Hooch

Sleepy wrote: »

Ok, obviously more details required:

I asked the question in relation to an accident I was involved in where another driver pulled out turning across my right of way (i.e. turning right) and has made a report of dangerous driving against me because I was going 'too fast' despite being a good 15k under the limit of the road in question which had a speed limit of 80k. I had to brake to avoid hitting the side of his vehicle at that speed , my car skidded across the median line and ended up colliding with the front driver's side corner of his vehicle.

To my mind, the dangerous / careless driving was on his part in that his actions (pulling out despite oncoming traffic) forced me to have to brake hard. He argues that I was driving too fast for the conditions if my jamming on the brakes caused me to skid.

There's both sides of the coin as best I can present them being an involved party. I was happy enough to leave this as a civil matter but the other party seems to have decided to report me for dangerous driving in the hope that if the case sticks it would automatically mean my insurance would have to cover the costs rather than the other way around...

Were you asked to make a cautioned statement??

Did you make a complaint of dangerous driving against the other vehicle??

Gardaí normaly would not investigate a material damage traffic collision. In this case i'd expect both parties to be summons for dangerous driving. It is then up to a judge to decide who was right and wrong.

A criminal case as such like this will most certainly have effect on insurance. If one party is convicted of Dangerous driving the insurance company will then side with the party that is not convicted.

Section 53 RTA is one of the sections in legislation that can be down graded by a judge to Section 52 and 51a. Thats what normally happens.

Seek professional legal advice.

O and speed can have no bearing on dangerous driving, its normally drivers actions....unless that action is driving at excess speed alone i.e. 160 kmph on a secondary road etc.

Hooch

Raven13 wrote: »

Sometimes driving faster is safer, for example it is very dangerous to join a dual carriage way from acceleration lane if you're driving too slow! Some people don't understand that the lane is meant for ACCELERATION.. you can't join the road driving 50km/h, that would be considered dangerous driving.

Acceleration lane....new one on me. Merging lane maybe??

Merging at 50 kmph is perfectly fine and totally legal on every Irish road. If you cannot allow for slow drivers and drivers with no confidence then thats not their fault. They is no law against driving slow.

ardmacha

Merging at 50 kmph is perfectly fine and totally legal on every Irish road.

Not so. When entering a major road you are required to do so without causing disruption to traffic on that road. On a motorway, for instance, where traffic was proceeding at 120kph you could not merge if there was other traffic on the road. If you properly accelerate to the speed of the traffic on the road then you can merge causing minimal disruption, however busy the road is.

Drivers are required to follow the rules of the road, whatever their confidence.

Hooch

ardmacha wrote: »

Not so. When entering a major road you are required to do so without causing disruption to traffic on that road. On a motorway, for instance, where traffic was proceeding at 120kph you could not merge if there was other traffic on the road. If you properly accelerate to the speed of the traffic on the road then you can merge causing minimal disruption, however busy the road is.

Drivers are required to follow the rules of the road, whatever their confidence.

Of couse they must do it safely but there is no restriction on speed last time I checked.....and drivers are required to follow the relevant legislation. the rules of the road are not law they are a guide. I have never heard of anyone being summonsed or charge for an offence contrary to the rules of the road.....

When entering a road you must do so safely. If you can merge at 50kmph then merge at that speed. If you want to drive now the M50 at 50kmph then do so. If other drivers cannot stop behind you or cant handle the fact that you are driving under the speed limit then they are the dangerous ones. How many times has it been said......its a speed limit, not a speed target!!

ttm

nice guy always wrote: »

How many times has it been said......its a speed limit, not a speed target!!

It would be nice if that was the way driving was taught in Ireland!

ardmacha

its a speed limit, not a speed target!!

Firstly this is not in doubt, despite some of the comment you hear on this forum.

Merging into a motorway at low speed is dangerous driving and is illegal. You are required to yield when entering a major road, you cannot just horse on to a major road and then claim that the person driving on that road was driving dangerously because they could not stop crashing into you. Nor can you place an obligation on them to brake to suit your bad driving.

Failing to make due progress is an offence in the UK, is the law different in the ROI?

Hooch

ardmacha wrote: »

Firstly this is not in doubt, despite some of the comment you hear on this forum.

Merging into a motorway at low speed is dangerous driving and is illegal. You are required to yield when entering a major road, you cannot just horse on to a major road and then claim that the person driving on that road was driving dangerously because they could not stop crashing into you. Nor can you place an obligation on them to brake to suit your bad driving.

Failing to make due progress is an offence in the UK, is the law different in the ROI?

I am not saying that merging at certain times at low speed cannot be dangerous. It certainly can. What I am saying is that there is NO specific offence and its not illegal to merge to a national/motorway at 50kmph once its clear to do so. There is no lower limit, other than that a vehicle must be able to travel at least 50kmph. It is not required to do so though. (I would agree with a minimum speed limit on a motorway btw)

Failing to make progress is not an offence in Ireland thank god.....hate to be ticketing the olde farmers:D

ttm

nice guy always wrote: »

Failing to make progress is not an offence in Ireland thank god.....

Then please stop a few driving instructors and tell them that!

The rows I had with my wife when she was learning, at least 3 instructors told her she would fail her test if she didn't drive at the speed limit as if you didn't you'd be slowing down other traffic and that wasn't allowed.

Take an area of town with a road with just enough room for parking on each side, with shops and pedestrians. It is a good straight road but if someone opened a car door you'd need to stop. Well I drive through at about 30kmph in 3rd gear, but untill she past her test my wife would always tell me her instructor made her drive in 4th at 50kmph along the same road. wtf parked cars,doors opening, kids running out, women pushing push chairs with babies in them out between parked cars to test if there is anyone on the road, cars parked on the wrongside of the road blind sided when pulling out and shes told to speed up to the speed limit. Hmmmm things have changed my old drivng instructor would have said 3rd gear area you need maximum contol, but that was the UK over 30years ago LOL he used to chain smoke in the car - at least thats changed

Hooch

ttm wrote: »

Then please stop a few driving instructors and tell them that!

The rows I had with my wife when she was learning, at least 3 instructors told her she would fail her test if she didn't drive at the speed limit as if you didn't you'd be slowing down other traffic and that wasn't allowed.

Take an area of town with a road with just enough room for parking on each side, with shops and pedestrians. It is a good straight road but if someone opened a car door you'd need to stop. Well I drive through at about 30kmph in 3rd gear, but untill she past her test my wife would always tell me her instructor made her drive in 4th at 50kmph along the same road. wtf parked cars,doors opening, kids running out, women pushing push chairs with babies in them out between parked cars to test if there is anyone on the road, cars parked on the wrongside of the road blind sided when pulling out and shes told to speed up to the speed limit. Hmmmm things have changed my old drivng instructor would have said 3rd gear area you need maximum contol, but that was the UK over 30years ago LOL he used to chain smoke in the car - at least thats changed

One thing I find is English drivers are far better than irish. Try stop an Irish car and your following for several kilometers before they slam on the breaks and stop in the overtaking lane of immediatly swing over two/three lanes into the hard shoulder. Try stop and english one and they pull over, safely within seconds.

Think our test/instructor/licencing system is all wrong.....but thats for another rant and another thread!!

ttm

Sorry was going off topic, will rant on our test/instructor/licencing system another day.

Sleepy

nice guy always wrote: »

Were you asked to make a cautioned statement??

Did you make a complaint of dangerous driving against the other vehicle??

I've to go in and give a statement in the next few days. TBH, I think the other party is only doing this because he doesn't think the civil case will go his way and is trying offence as the best form of defense.

The last thing I want to do is turn this all into a criminal case but if it comes down to it, he's forced my hand.

Hooch

Sleepy wrote: »

I've to go in and give a statement in the next few days. TBH, I think the other party is only doing this because he doesn't think the civil case will go his way and is trying offence as the best form of defense.

The last thing I want to do is turn this all into a criminal case but if it comes down to it, he's forced my hand.

Give your statement, it will be cautioned, and tell the Garda the full story. Just because statements are taken doesnt automaticaly mean anyone will be prosecuted. the supt could direct no prosecution. See how it goes and let us know

Omcd

nice guy always wrote: »

Acceleration lane....new one on me. Merging lane maybe??

Merging at 50 kmph is perfectly fine and totally legal on every Irish road. If you cannot allow for slow drivers and drivers with no confidence then thats not their fault. They is no law against driving slow.

So, why was I pulled by a Garda who wanted to give me two penalty points for inconsiderate driving for driving at what he claimed to be 55 kph in what he thought to be 100kph stretch of road ??

Hooch

Omcd wrote: »

So, why was I pulled by a Garda who wanted to give me two penalty points for inconsiderate driving for driving at what he claimed to be 55 kph in what he thought to be 100kph stretch of road ??

Did I stop you???....no. Am I psychic???.....no

Did you get a ticket....no. Could you have gotten a ticket.....no.

Dabko

Omcd wrote: »

So, why was I pulled by a Garda who wanted to give me two penalty points for inconsiderate driving for driving at what he claimed to be 55 kph in what he thought to be 100kph stretch of road ??

sounds like that garda was in the same sh1ty line of traffic behind you that everyone else was and decided to flex his muscle a bit through pure frustration and annoyance!:D

Zube

Sleepy wrote: »

I've to go in and give a statement in the next few days.

No, you don't. You are not obliged to make a statement at all. Talk to a lawyer before you do.

It is possible that your statement will be used to convict you of an offense even if there isn't enough evidence to do so without the statement.

Omcd

nice guy always wrote: »

Did I stop you???....no. Am I psychic???.....no

Did you get a ticket....no. Could you have gotten a ticket.....no.

Well, he was traffic corps, and wanted to give me a ticket, explaining 55km/h in a 100km/h zone 'constitutes inconsiderate driving carrying two penalty points'.

I didn't get a ticket after explaining to him that there were 60km/h signs on the road due to the roadworks he had pulled me just in front of (in fairness to him he had just joined from a side road before pulling me so wouldn't have passed the signs himself).

Other than that, I dont have any particular reason to doubt what you say. I'm not trying to wind you up. It's just that if you are TC and he was TC, then from my perspective it looks like different TC members are singing from different hymn sheets - so I'm confused

Zube

ttm wrote: »

Then please stop a few driving instructors and tell them that!

Driving instructors don't tell you to make progress to avoid tickets, they tell you to make progress or you'll fail your test.

And they're right, my sister failed for sticking scrupulously to the limit, which was known as "failing to make sufficient progress on the straight" (although that was a long time ago).

Hooch

Dont be clouded by "Traffic Corps" on a car of jacket. TC are just Gardaí....nothing more. I think people expect us to be infalable....were not. We all recieve the same training, but some take a particular interest in the law and the correct interptation of it. You cannot get a ticket for driving too slow in this country. Sure all agri machinery would be banned from roads if you could.

Omcd wrote: »

Other than that, I dont have any particular reason to doubt what you say. I'm not trying to wind you up. It's just that if you are TC and he was TC, then from my perspective it looks like different TC members are singing from different hymn sheets - so I'm confused

Omcd

nice guy always wrote: »

Dont be clouded by "Traffic Corps" on a car of jacket. TC are just Gardaí....nothing more. I think people expect us to be infalable....were not. We all recieve the same training, but some take a particular interest in the law and the correct interptation of it. You cannot get a ticket for driving too slow in this country. Sure all agri machinery would be banned from roads if you could.

hmmm.. 'I cant soar with eagles when surrounded by turkeys'
I cant help wonder what the inspiration for this was

Hooch

Omcd wrote: »

hmmm.. 'I cant soar with eagles when surrounded by turkeys'
I cant help wonder what the inspiration for this was

I would tell you the truth that it referred to some posters on boards but I could get infracted:pac::D

Seth Brundle

nice guy always wrote: »

Dont be clouded by "Traffic Corps" on a car of jacket. TC are just Gardaí....nothing more. I think people expect us to be infalable....were not. We all recieve the same training, but some take a particular interest in the law and the correct interptation of it. You cannot get a ticket for driving too slow in this country. Sure all agri machinery would be banned from roads if you could.

I've been looking for it but can't find the link. However, I'm reminded of the farmer in Sligo (about a year ago) who was done in court for being an ignorant prick and not letting traffic pass.
He wasn't done for being too slow alright but he was done for inconsiderate driving by blocking traffic.

Hooch

kbannon wrote: »

I've been looking for it but can't find the link. However, I'm reminded of the farmer in Sligo (about a year ago) who was done in court for being an ignorant prick and not letting traffic pass.
He wasn't done for being too slow alright but he was done for inconsiderate driving by blocking traffic.

Yes but not for driving too slow. I believe your referred incident was farmer joe driving in middle of the road, a tyre at either side of the line.

metrovelvet

I was driving down the n17 today and an OAP was in front of me going 35 KM an hour. Not only does it cause road rage but it also causes people going at a healthy speed to stop short on the break. And it causes an obstruction of traffic flow. Is absolutely dangerous.

To boot, even when there was a temporary double lane, the bitch stayed in the right hand lane and wouldnt move. So I honked and honked and honked and she still wouldnt move so I overtook her in the slow lane with a tailback for a half a mile behind me.

SLeepy I would report the other driver since you had the right of way and were under the limit. Ive seen it time and time again on country roads where ive had to slam on breaks for these feckers pulling out at 10 kms onto a national road.

dryle

Can a member of the Gardai (plain clothes) pull out in front of you and slam on their brakes in the fast lane of a motorway causing you to

1. Brake hard and
2. Swerve into the slow lane to avoid an accident.

Then pull you for dangerous driving.

Gran Hermano

dryle wrote: »

Can a member of the Gardai (plain clothes) pull out in front of you and slam on their brakes in the fast lane of a motorway causing you to

1. Brake hard and
2. Swerve into the slow lane to avoid an accident.

Then pull you for dangerous driving.

Sorry I can't help, have never driven in a 'fast' lane.

dryle

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Sorry I can't help, have never driven in a 'fast' lane.

Overtaking lane, apologies still call it fast after so many years.

cyclopath2001

dryle wrote: »

Can a member of the Gardai (plain clothes) pull out in front of you and slam on their brakes in the fast lane of a motorway causing you to

1. Brake hard and
2. Swerve into the slow lane to avoid an accident.

Then pull you for dangerous driving.

What speed were you doing at the time, what was the limit and what were the driving conditions?