The Rise and Fall of IWW

cinder

lot of people seem anti-IWW on this thread. how come?

leggo

Eh, in short...some people got annoyed that their performers deleted as friends them on Bebo (not a joke or thinly-veiled flame btw, I know of at least one person who's said this). Some are ex-performers who didn't get what they want from the promotion. Some got banned from their forums for various reasons. Some just genuinely don't enjoy their stuff.

gimmick

There is alot more to it than that leggo and you know that.

IWW, for me, was the best promotion in this country by a long shot in 2005/6. I really enjoyed travelling to their shows and was never let down.It had good talent coming through consistently, and brought over good guest from abroad. Then they started losing the talent, some to the US, others to NWA Ireland and NLW. These fellas were never replaced. They then came to Cork and forgot their ring, decided there was an interweb conspiracy or something, and stopped advertising online, only coming here to post their results. Other such stupidity was not acknowledging that their UK show was cancelled and people showed up to it not knowing this, and some of their wrestlers coming on here calling posters out.

It is a shame as it could have become a really solid promotion.

There is alot more to be said, but that is as brief a synopsis as I can give.

This is my first bit of modding as well, if this decends into a slagging match, posts will be deleted, topic closed again temporarily and infractions given out. The matter can easily be discussed with argument.

leggo

I don't want a slagging match or anything either trust me, gimmick, we're all way too old for it. But I WILL always add a balance.

Tbh, though, I'd say that my post IS the extent of it as far as this place goes.

IwW DID have rival promotions ringing up venues they advertised in and undercutting them...that's fact because I dealt with it personally. And it stopped when they stopped advertising online. So it's not simply a case of them 'deciding there was an interweb conspiracy' as you so flippantly put it.

As far as wrestlers calling posters out, if that's referring to me, I've no problem defending myself. As the press guy for IwW when we DID advertise online...I became the public voice of the company on here. When people created problems with IwW, they naturally came into direct opposition with my posts and, as a result, I started to get a RAKE of personal abuse on here and elsewhere. Grudges from my time as an admin got transferred onto her because people weren't barred from boards.

I'm not complaining or moaning...I put myself out there so everything that came my way was a result of that...but that's the facts.

The problem with the net is that everyone can be a critic on it. And you just have to have a good sense of grammar to sound like you're a 'credible' source. Sitting behind a keyboard, people will feel the added sense of security when they post criticisms etc. And then, when they're ultra-fine mirror is pointed back at them, they'll play the 'You're so unprofessional card' because, they can say what they want...but they can give it but not take it.

The reason for the anti-IwW tone is simple: there's, what, maybe 15 regular posters on this thread? If even? And a good portion of those posters are either friends outside of here or will keep in touch via the net, travel to shows together etc. So because, say, ten of those have gotten in TOO deep and taken issue with IwW because they haven't gotten what they wanted (for example, being deleted as a friend on Bebo. Something that happened to me. And, no offence, but I don't want to make any friends from the PW forum in boards...I've enough thankyouverymuch), then it gives a slanted reflection on the promotion as a whole.

Because now, all of a sudden, 66% of posters (even though that 66% is not enough people to break even on a Gym War) are anti-IwW because of Bebo, the forums or being an ex-performer. And they have venom in being anti-IwW. They will research the personal lives of people they don't like and post details online. They will band together and unite against ANYONE who is pro-IwW. If they don't beat them in a debate, they'll run through their posts with a microscope and report ANY misdeeds to the mods in an effort to get them banned. And if you look closely enough in ANYONE'S post over a long enough space of time, you'll find enough dirt.

If you were an outsider looking in, who actually liked IwW but wasn't arsed dealing with the aggro and hassle, that comes with admitting it on boards...would you post here? It's simple, basic social dynamics.

So, as a result, the pro-IwW people are weeded out and all that remains are those that don't like the product. Because this is the 'official' topic for Irish pro-wrestling on a major site like boards, it gives the impression that EVERYONE feels the same. Although that's clearly not the case.

I'll be the first to say that IwW have their flaws...nobody's perfect and neither are they. And they're by no means above criticism. And, as I said, there are people on here (like yourself for example) who simply call it like it is. That flanator dude is another one I consider fairly down the line.

But to suggest that IwW simply made their own bed and get a fair shake of it here, that there's NOBODY on here who'll slam them for any reason whatsoever (usually due to reasons outside of the ring), is ridiculous.

gimmick

Fair points, and I was not talking about you in the calling out. Anyway, that to one side, one thing I would take issue with is

The reason for the anti-IwW tone is simple: there's, what, maybe 15 regular posters on this thread?

There seems to be an idea that IWWs only adult fan base post here on this forum. I can only speak of my own experiences, but I know of a good number of fellas from Cork, who do not post (or look) here who have been to IWW shows with me in both Cork and Waterford. They would not bother anymore with IWW, admittedly mostly due to "ringless gate". I know of other posters here who are not from Cork, who have friends who don't bother with it anymore either. And that is only the anecdotal evidence I have. I am sure there are numerous others throughout IWWs traditionally strong markets who feel the same.

As I say, its a great shame, as I was once a fanboy for the promotion and even did a bit of postering for their Neptune stadium shows in Cork.

flahavaj

I don't think anyone seriously believes that the reason that IWW is a total laughing stock is petty internet feuding between forum regulars in all fairness.

Not when there is such damning evidence like the terminal decline of their attendance figures, the fact that they regularly run shows with only 4 or 5 workers present, the debacle in Cork when fans arrived to an arena only to find the ring failed to turn up, the similar debacle in England last week where their UK debut was cancelled without notifying even one of the many websites where the show was advertised (a few people travelled a VERY long way to be disappointed by that one, see the UKFF thread), their appallingly lazy self promotion, one of their most well known "workers" recently posting on here to challenge a poster to a debate about his wrestling skills outside Eason Clonmel or the fact that they don't even bother to update their own bloody website.

But apart from that whats not to like?

The Cannibal

The way I see the rise and fall is that they did the shows in 02 with all imports, that wasn't financially viable long term so they came back in 04 with home grown talent.

The Wrestling Channel coincedentally launched at pretty much the exact same time as this and based their offices in Howth, which let Simon Rochford get buddy-buddy with Sean Herbert. All of a sudden IwW had top notch production at their disposal and an upcoming TV show.

Within months of the school being open there were internal disruptions and a lot of people unhappy with the way things were being run or how they were being dealt with. Some left and were pretty bitter about it, and some wanted to leave but had the TV carrot keeping them there and then some were happy enough with the circumstances. The roster got slightly smaller but not in any significant way.

TWC and Whiplash TV came, and then it went. TWC flopped, the show got dropped, the big production and promotion disappeared and that is where the rise ended. It started with TWC and it ended with TWC. People left, the roster got smaller.

After that they were strictly a touring company and did pretty well for a short period but gradually squandered their exposure, changed their targeted fan base and dumbed down the shows. People left, roster got smaller.

Then they closed down the school which was always a base for the home grown talent. People left, roster got smaller.

And then of course the incidents already mentioned with the ring, UK and other such tom foolery. The internet "conspiracy" probably had the least amount to do with the fall of IwW.

To me it just wasn't promoted well. They lucked into some good fortune with TWC and coasted on it, and when that good fortune went so did IwW's rise.

leggo

I don't think anyone seriously believes that the reason that IWW is a total laughing stock is petty internet feuding between forum regulars in all fairness.

But in what world do you consider it a total laughing stock?

I've talked to a lot of very respectable organisations (both nationally and regionally), as recently as today in fact, who spoke highly of their time working with IwW.

Just because you and your mates might slag the promotion off on boards, MSN or whatever doesn't make it an indication of how the real world views it. And if people think it does, then they've got a warped sense of perspective.

I'd have my own opinions and criticisms on IwW myself...but it doesn't mean that I'm going to start ranting about it on here. This is despite me investing more time and energy into the company than anyone else has and possibly having more of a reason to care. But no...they're doing what they're doing and, last I've heard, are quite happy to keep doing so. So fair play to them, I say!

It just makes me wonder why people put so much energy into hating them for no good reason.

And THEN I realise that the last two posters have either been banned from the forums or are ex-trainees who didn't get what they want from the promotion. That's not a flame, that's fact. And then the picture becomes a whole lot clearer. Does someone who's been blocked from one of the guys' Bebo pages wanna chime in to prove me right undoubtedly?

The Cannibal

leggo wrote: »

And THEN I realise that the last two posters have either been banned from the forums or are ex-trainees who didn't get what they want from the promotion. That's not a flame, that's fact. And then the picture becomes a whole lot clearer. Does someone who's been blocked from one of the guys' Bebo pages wanna chime in to prove me right inconclusively?

You really need to stop this whole conspiracy nonsense. I haven't trained with IwW in over 5 years. I didn't leave on the best of terms but I got over that oh, 4 and a half years ago. I watched Whiplash TV, I attended their super shows, even bought a couple of dvd's, I didn't hold a grudge. Any criticisms I've made have been objectively made and based on information that is out there. If you check my post history I've criticised other promotions where appropriate and praised them where appropriate too. I very rarely even reference my time as a trainee and just analyse like a fan would. But I guess you'd rather try to discredit the people then debate the actual points.

leggo

TWC and Whiplash TV came, and then it went. TWC flopped, the show got dropped, the big production and promotion disappeared and that is where the rise ended. It started with TWC and it ended with TWC. People left, the roster got smaller.

Just a quick note: IwW Whiplash Series 2 finished in August 2006.

IwW enjoyed its most profitable period from around January 2007-July 2007. From Zero Gravity to Global Impact. Consistent big show sellouts and a house show didn't go by where they didn't at least break even (except for the odd extreme case).

And the Laughter Lounge TV tapings in 2006 were the worst attended 'big shows' in the company's history. They were the one's we left to outside promoter's and supposed 'professionals'.

So that kinda cuts through your 'they didn't know how to promote' and 'they were only successful because of the TV deal' argument.

The Cannibal

leggo wrote: »

Just a quick note: IwW Whiplash Series 2 finished in August 2006.

IwW enjoyed its most profitable period from around January 2007-July 2007. From Zero Gravity to Global Impact. Consistent big show sellouts and a house show didn't go by where they didn't at least break even (except for the odd extreme case).

And the Laughter Lounge TV tapings in 2006 were the worst attended 'big shows' in the company's history. They were the one's we left to outside promoter's and supposed 'professionals'.

So that kinda cuts through your 'they didn't know how to promote' and 'they were only successful because of the TV deal' argument.

"After that they were strictly a touring company and did pretty well for a short period but gradually squandered their exposure"

That was my very next paragraph.

leggo

"After that they were strictly a touring company and did pretty well for a short period but gradually squandered their exposure"

That was my very next paragraph.

Your entire point was that they only did well because of TV, though, man. Do you not realise that? And it was a point that was proven resoundly wrong with facts.

The TV show was a money-squandering hassle more than anything. The segments on RTE, TV3 as well as national and local media articles (who's continued work with them would also serve as proof that not the ENTIRE world sees them as a laughing stock) are what earned them their name. Then the local promotion got the punters in the door.

Simon then began to focus less on wrestling and more on family matters afterwards...which is why you see them working smaller towns with smaller crews these days.

But they drew solidly until mid-2008. People will point to the ring going missing as a 'turning point'...I'd say that considering that would only mess up one territory, the promoter having a child would be a far more likely explanation. That never gets mentioned on here when speaking about IwW downsizing. Funny that, it'd seem kinda important to me...

I dunno...you're the expert though.

The Cannibal

They wouldn't have been in the business to have a 6 month run of good tours without the TV.

This will be the last time I respond if you persist with this condescending "you're the expert" tone when I've already stated that I'm analysing as a fan

EoinHeffernan

The Cannibal wrote: »

They wouldn't have been in the business to have a 6 month run of good tours without the TV.

And this is based on what exactly? Trust me when I say that been on TWC didnt mean an iota as regards to the attendance figure of said shows, the reason said shows did so well was down to one thing, local promotion. Flyers, newspaper ads, radio interviews and word of mouth is what put asses in seats, not a channel that few rarely watched.

When IWW did 3 very successful shows in Waterford in 2007, was it because of some lasting memory of a little known TV show? No, it was because local promotion was turned up a notch.

When IWW did it's inaugural show in Cork in 2008, it was a very reasonable success, why? Because of a TV show from 18 months prior? No, again because of local promotion.

To say that IWW started and ended with TWC is quite frankly bull at it's highest order.

The Cannibal

I didn't say IwW ended, I said any forward progression ended and halted the rise.

During TWC, they had TV exposure no matter how miniscule. They were still watched by a core wrestling audience and most people who know IwW when you mention them on a forum will remember them from a TV show that brought them to attention. TWC didn't have high casual viewer figures apart from the World of Sport showings but it did raise awareness in the wrestling community of the promotions it featured.

They had access to great production, they put out good quality DVDs, their roster got international bookings more than at any other period and they had access to big stars because the wrestling channel would often bring them over for the Bagpipe Report and IwW wouldn't have to fly them in, there was a period of time where they seemed to have a big guest trainer every other week. They were followed not just nationally but internationally within the hardcore wrestling community and that's the period when the Mad Man Manson's, SOS's and Red Vinny's made their names. They didn't really create many stars who got international bookings after they lost TV. Their reputation was still generally good then too.

It was the point that they were most visible and widely recognized, and they never reached that point again after they lost TWC. If they failed to put asses in seats while they had the exposure that's just their fault but it was the highest point they ever got to visibilty wise and recognition wise. After that they became just another indy who obviously still wanted to be on barely watched TV judging by the whole Buzz debacle.

cinder

in fairness to IWW why would they advertise on here? there is about ten regular posters on here who just whine and complain about them and other wrestling promotions. this thread is really unpositive. i was at an irish whip show recently and i must say i really enjoyed it. oh and there was only six wrestlers on it. they ran storylines during the show which was a nice touch and they really got the crowd into it. i recommend to people on here who think IWW is terrible to check out their present day shows cause i don't think anyone on hear has been to one in a while. now don't get me wrong, im not only a fan of IWW i also enjoyed shows by other promotions but IWW gets unfair treatment on here i think. and yes i know people will go on about shows been cancelled. so you guys are saying no other promotion has ever cancelled a show in Ireland or in the world? how bout concerts? the circus? funfairs? see my point. it's an unfortunate fact of life.

EoinHeffernan

The Cannibal wrote: »

I didn't say IwW ended, I said any forward progression ended and halted the rise.

Please elaborate more on this as regards the halt in forward progression. I am genuinely curious as from what I saw, IWW did continue to progress by expanding into new areas that had not been previously run plus there was an increase in national publicity though TV and the press.

During TWC, they had TV exposure no matter how miniscule. They were still watched by a core wrestling audience and most people who know IwW when you mention them on a forum will remember them from a TV show that brought them to attention.

But that is such a small group of fans though and personally I would be more of the belief that people would know IWW from been promoted locally or for the imports that were brought over eg. CIMA, Takeshi Rikio, Tracy Smothers etc.

They had access to great production, they put out good quality DVDs,

What great production was available? If anything the DVD's released post TWC era were of better quality eg. Global Impact, International Hits.

It was the point that they were most visible and widely recognized, and they never reached that point again after they lost TWC.

They became more visible and recognized to the smart fans but they are so insignificant in the grander scale of things due to the fact that there are so few that again it really meant nothing to be on it. When talking to people after the shows they came out for a good night, to see one of the imports and/or as a treat for the kids. Never once did anyone say 'because we saw it on TWC'.

leggo

They had access to great production, they put out good quality DVDs, their roster got international bookings more than at any other period and they had access to big stars because the wrestling channel would often bring them over for the Bagpipe Report and IwW wouldn't have to fly them in, there was a period of time where they seemed to have a big guest trainer every other week.

Dude, if you're gonna cite THAT era as the most successful period of IwW's tenure...then you're REALLY stretching. I never trained with Blake so I'm not going to comment on him personally...but those days (i.e. the days when Blake went missing during an guest training class when a renowned pro asked who had trained them in disbelief) are considered the dark old days.

They were pivotal in forming what would later become quite a successful local organisation: but it was the Lucan show in 04 that proved the turning point for Irish Whip...when Simon started cutting down the roster and turning it into a legitimate, professionally run outfit.

Before then, it was a joke. Even before I knew anything about the inner workings of wrestling...I was moments from walking out on several occassions. I remember a guy who had been training 3 MONTHS (noy going to mention names) came up to me on one of my first days down there and asked, deadly serious, "What do you think you're doing in my training school?!"

It was marks gone wild because, unfortunately, before Burridge came along Simon couldn't find people who either had the skills or will to train the guys in a professional manner.

It certainly wasn't the good old days. IwW became a success, later on, DESPITE those days. Not because of them.

They were followed not just nationally but internationally within the hardcore wrestling community and that's the period when the Mad Man Manson's, SOS's and Red Vinny's made their names. They didn't really create many stars who got international bookings after they lost TV.

This is also VERY misguided.

Back in those days, when a guy got an international booking, there was a post made on the Trainee Forum, everybody said congratulations and this person was made to look an example. Irish guys working outside of England (besides NWA guys working with their sister companies) was unheard of.

TV opened the door to international contacts and more guys travelling abroad because we were bringing in guys who could get us those bookings and everyone's matches were on TV as a walking advertisement anyway.

But to insinuate that the international bookings dried up after Series 2 is RIDICULOUS!

For a sustained period of time, there wasn't a weekend that went by without someone in the promotion working abroad. Hell, even to this day, the likes of Mandrake, Hurley, Rooney and Warren are CONSISTENTLY taking foreign bookings!

After that they became just another indy who obviously still wanted to be on barely watched TV judging by the whole Buzz debacle.

The Buzz debacle?! What part of getting free advertisement on a TV show do you think makes it a debacle?

IwW used footage from previously taped shows for the Buzz TV show. They didn't go to any extra expense for it. The only official 'tapings' were scheduled to be in the Basketball Arena and Neptune Stadium...but they were both being planned for a year beforehand, before any word from Buzz came about.

As for viewership figures, I've no doubt that they were low. But hardly as low as you think. I remember when I used to work security, I'd get recognised by a randomer from just refereeing the TV show at least once a week. So obviously people were watching.

So again I beg the question...what part of that free hour-long, weekly advertisement on a national television station do you see as a debacle again?

Bounty Hunter

This discussion has been moved from the Irish promotional sticky, please keep it Civil, dont let it descend into personal squabbling as the mods will be keeping a very close eye on this thread and will not be afraid to take action if people cant post responsibly

The Cannibal

I'm about done anyway. I did have big response to Eoin in mind but I'm going to leave it because it seems like I've had a variation of this debate far too many times and it is obvious it has no clear conclusion. We just measure success in different ways I guess.

The only thing I will address is out of Leggo's post. I at no time referred to Blake Norton or referenced the Blake Norton period of IwW. He was head trainer for a grand total of 2 months and wrestled on only 2 shows. He was long gone and had even set up CPW before the Whiplash period I referenced, and some good trainee's came out of that venture. I believe Darren Burridge was the main trainer for the majority of that period, which is another positive for the period cause he was the best qualified trainer they ever had.

leggo

Grand. The reference to the Bagpipe Report and the guest trainers led me to believe you were discussing Blake Norton and 2nd lock-up.

the flananator

leggo wrote: »

And, as I said, there are people on here (like yourself for example) who simply call it like it is. That flananator dude is another one I consider fairly down the line.

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that Leggo as I've generally received nothing but personal abuse from IWW fans and alumni over the last few years, not to mention the lies that have been spread about me from said people. I've only ever wished the best for IWW and Irish wrestling in general, but I will be critical if and when I see fit.

Guy With Four Posts wrote: »

this thread is really unpositive.

'Negative'. This thread is really 'negative'.


I find it curious that you say this;

Guy With Four Posts wrote: »

i recommend to people on here who think IWW is terrible to check out their present day shows cause i don't think anyone on hear has been to one in a while.

...shortly after posting this;

Guy With Four Posts wrote: »

in fairness to IWW why would they advertise on here? there is about ten regular posters on here who just whine and complain about them and other wrestling promotions.

How can you suggest we attend an IWW card when you condone IWW not advertising its shows on here? How can I go to a show that I don't know is on?

Guy With Four Posts wrote: »

i was at an irish whip show recently and i must say i really enjoyed it. oh and there was only six wrestlers on it. they ran storylines during the show which was a nice touch and they really got the crowd into it.

Really? Cool! Why not come on here and post your thoughts on said show? Maybe do a bit of a write up? I'd love to hear about it, 'cause I've heard fuck all about IWW in months.

Guy With Four Posts wrote: »

and yes i know people will go on about shows been cancelled. so you guys are saying no other promotion has ever cancelled a show in Ireland or in the world? how bout concerts? the circus? funfairs? see my point. it's an unfortunate fact of life.

I'm aware that shit happens, yes. And I'm aware independent wrestling will always be subject to last minute cancellations, no shows, etc. But you can't deny IWW's record in this field has been truly shambolic, even with the uncertainties of independent wrestling in mind. Some examples;

* April Anarchy, 2003. This was a show booked in the Temple Arena (think that was the name of the arena, I could be wrong), inner city Dublin, in 2003. It was IWW's first card since the NBA shows. Jerry Lynn, Zebra Kid and others were booked for the show (it was advertised in Power Slam magainzine as I recall). On the night of the show, myself and several other wrestling fans arrived at the venue to find that is was locked up. There was no poster or sign to say the show was cancelled, no IWW rep to fill us in, no nothing. Everyone just went home. Can't remember if my Mum ever got refunded for the tickets she bought.


* March, 2005. Billy Gunn is announced as the headline attraction for IWW's inaugural 'Supershow' event at the SFX Arena. Many fans eagerly buy their tickets in advance. IWW soon announces however that Gunn will not be appearing on the card, as he is instead taking a booking on a “Las Vegas PPV event”. Needless to say, there was no such an event (there was a Boxing PPV in Caesar’s Palace around the same time, but I can’t imagine Gunn had anything to do with that), which makes one question if Gunn was ever booked at all.

* June, 2005. IWW hacks heavily paper WWE’s ‘Summer Bash’ event at the RDS. The fliers advertise an event that October in the National Stadium, promising Mick Foley, Matt Hardy and M-Dogg 20.

leggo

Well, I'm glad to hear you say that Leggo as I've generally received nothing but personal abuse from IWW fans and alumni over the last few years, not to mention the lies that have been spread about me from said people.

Dude, quick question btw, and this isn't going to lead into anything I'm just genuinely curious and have been for a while now:

But am I correct in saying you were that Dr X dude or whatever it was a few years back? WHERE did you hear that Bam Katrazz and I had a fight in training? (Feel free to PM it to me if you don't wanna say in public. Again, won't lead to anything)

We had a laugh about that one for ages. I'd heard a few weird rumours about myself during the days but that was probably the most random.

ScumdogV2

the flananator wrote: »

* April Anarchy, 2003. This was a show booked in the Temple Arena (think that was the name of the arena, I could be wrong), inner city Dublin, in 2003. It was IWW's first card since the NBA shows. Jerry Lynn, Zebra Kid and others were booked for the show (it was advertised in Power Slam magainzine as I recall). On the night of the show, myself and several other wrestling fans arrived at the venue to find that is was locked up. There was no poster or sign to say the show was cancelled, no IWW rep to fill us in, no nothing. Everyone just went home. Can't remember if my Mum ever got refunded for the tickets she bought.

They did make an announcement that it was cancelled. I had tickets for this and found out about a week beforehand that it was called off.

the flananator

ScumdogV2 wrote: »

They did make an announcement that it was cancelled. I had tickets for this and found out about a week beforehand that it was called off.

An announcement where? Why would the promoter assume that all of the people who had bought tickets for the show would be familiar with his website, especially when the best advertising the show got was through a main-stream wrestling magazine?

I found out about the show through Power Slam. I didn not use the internet at the time. There were about 20 disgruntled fans who had also showed up for the event that night, also. Clearly, they were not aware of a website either.

A sign saying "Show has been cancelled. Phone so and so for refunds" would not have been to much to ask for.

ScumdogV2

the flananator wrote: »

An announcement where? Why would the promoter assume that all of the people who had bought tickets for the show would be familiar with his website, especially when the best advertising the show got was through a main-stream wrestling magazine?

I found out about the show through Power Slam. I didn not use the internet at the time. There were about 20 disgruntled fans who had also showed up for the event that night, also. Clearly, they were not aware of a website either.

A sign saying "Show has been cancelled. Phone so and so for refunds" would not have been to much to ask for.

I'm sorry, but the bolded part is ridiculous. If I recall, the promotion for April Anarchy included regular updates on the IWW forums and website, large posters up all around Dublin City as well as flyers practically everywhere, not just even in the City centre, but as far as Ballyfermot (where I lived at the time).

How can you compare that to a small paragraph consisting of about forty words? Especially in a wrestling magazine aimed at older fans who are more than likely to get all the info off the IWW website.

And twenty people turned up not knowing it was cancelled. That's hardly a lot, is it?

flahavaj

the flananator wrote: »

* April Anarchy, 2003. This was a show booked in the Temple Arena (think that was the name of the arena, I could be wrong), inner city Dublin, in 2003. It was IWW's first card since the NBA shows. Jerry Lynn, Zebra Kid and others were booked for the show (it was advertised in Power Slam magainzine as I recall). On the night of the show, myself and several other wrestling fans arrived at the venue to find that is was locked up. There was no poster or sign to say the show was cancelled, no IWW rep to fill us in, no nothing. Everyone just went home. Can't remember if my Mum ever got refunded for the tickets she bought.

Fast forward six years and the exact same thing happens at IWW's debut in the UK.

flahavaj

cinder wrote: »

in fairness to IWW why would they advertise on here? there is about ten regular posters on here who just whine and complain about them and other wrestling promotions. this thread is really unpositive. i was at an irish whip show recently and i must say i really enjoyed it. oh and there was only six wrestlers on it. they ran storylines during the show which was a nice touch and they really got the crowd into it. i recommend to people on here who think IWW is terrible to check out their present day shows cause i don't think anyone on hear has been to one in a while. now don't get me wrong, im not only a fan of IWW i also enjoyed shows by other promotions but IWW gets unfair treatment on here i think. and yes i know people will go on about shows been cancelled. so you guys are saying no other promotion has ever cancelled a show in Ireland or in the world? how bout concerts? the circus? funfairs? see my point. it's an unfortunate fact of life.

Even if I thought you had a semblance of a point regarding IWW's apparent unwillingness to advertise shows on this website, how in the name of God do they justify not updating their own website? The so called "Latest News" section was last updated on 29th April 2009! Thats just down right laziness in my book. How do these guys expect to be taken seriously as a wrestling promotion, when the mere word promotion is absolutely alien to them in just about every way?

You can talk about IWW being treated unfairly on here all you like but the litany of laughable instances where they have acted in an absolutely incompetent manner is endless and just because people on here are prepared to point these out and comment upon it in a negative manner isn't a bad thing, it is in fact a very good thing IMO.

the flananator

ScumdogV2 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but the bolded part is ridiculous. If I recall, the promotion for April Anarchy included regular updates on the IWW forums and website, large posters up all around Dublin City as well as flyers practically everywhere, not just even in the City centre, but as far as Ballyfermot (where I lived at the time).

Congradulations on completely missing my point. In fact, you've actually strenghened my point. Exactly, the majority of people will have found out about the show through posters, fliers etc. and NOT through the website. Hence, I'm sure you can see why a notice on the website declaring the show's cancellation is not sufficient.

ScumdogV2 wrote: »

And twenty people turned up not knowing it was cancelled. That's hardly a lot, is it?

Well considering when I rang the venue the next day for an explanation and they told me the show was cancelled due to fuck all tickets being sold, I would say, yeah, 20 people is a lot in this context.

ScumdogV2

the flananator wrote: »

Congradulations on completely missing my point. In fact, you've actually strenghened my point. Exactly, the majority of people will have found out about the show through posters, fliers etc. and NOT through the website. Hence, I'm sure you can see why a notice on the website declaring the show's cancellation is not sufficient.




Well considering when I rang the venue the next day for an explanation and they told me the show was cancelled due to fuck all tickets being sold, I would say, yeah, 20 people is a lot in this context.

So after seeing these posters and flyers, they're going to ignore the "visit irishwhipwrestling.com for more information!" sentence, in huge font at the bottom of the poster/flyer?

There was a post on the old IWW forum back in '03, with an explanation as to why it was cancelled. Apparently, there were only two hundred and something tickets sold. Whether you believe this or not, this is what was said. Now, they'd kill for that number now, but back then that was considered a huge disappointment. Keeping in mind, they drew 1,200 fans the previous October using the very same promotion used for April Anarchy.

But anyway, say 200 tickets were told. How is it that 20 people didn't know it was cancelled but the other 180 did?

I'm not trying to defend IWW by the way. 2005 were the glory days, but since the Winter of 2006 they've gone rapidly downhill and how they're still in business is anyone's guess.

the flananator

ScumdogV2 wrote: »

So after seeing these posters and flyers, they're going to ignore the "visit irishwhipwrestling.com for more information!" sentence, in huge font at the bottom of the poster/flyer?

There was a post on the old IWW forum back in '03, with an explanation as to why it was cancelled. Apparently, there were only two hundred and something tickets sold. Whether you believe this or not, this is what was said. Now, they'd kill for that number now, but back then that was considered a huge disappointment. Keeping in mind, they drew 1,200 fans the previous October using the very same promotion used for April Anarchy.

But anyway, say 200 tickets were told. How is it that 20 people didn't know it was cancelled but the other 180 did?

I'm not trying to defend IWW by the way. 2005 were the glory days, but since the Winter of 2006 they've gone rapidly downhill and how they're still in business is anyone's guess.

I see your point, but I simply don't accept it as an excuse. This was 2003, not 2009; not everyone had a computer, nevermind internet access. And as I've already told you, not everyone found out about the show via posters or whatever; I found out through PS. Not sure if I even had the internet at the time, don't think I did.

20 people out of 200 is 10% of your audience, mate. So by not bothering his arse to perform the simple task of putting up a notice at the venue the night of the show, Simon managed to alienate and generally piss-off 10% of his audience. That you seem to think that this is acceptable suggests to me that you are worthy of a position on the IWW PR desk!*

*I'm kidding of course. IWW don't own a desk.

the flananator

Not that it really matters, but by the by, I was quoted a lower number of ticket sales by the venue at the time.

ScumdogV2

the flananator wrote: »

I see your point, but I simply don't accept it as an excuse. This was 2003, not 2009; not everyone had a computer, nevermind internet access. And as I've already told you, not everyone found out about the show via posters or whatever; I found out through PS. Not sure if I even had the internet at the time, don't think I did.

20 people out of 200 is 10% of your audience, mate. So by not bothering his arse to perform the simple task of putting up a notice at the venue the night of the show, Simon managed to alienate and generally piss-off 10% of his audience. That you seem to think that this is acceptable suggests to me that you are worthy of a position on the IWW PR desk!*

*I'm kidding of course. IWW don't own a desk.

I absolutely agree. Not putting up a notice on the doors of the venue is apalling and no reason is good enough to defend it. IWW rightly deserved to lose interest from the 20 people who had no Internet that evening.

ScumdogV2

the flananator wrote: »

Not that it really matters, but by the by, I was quoted a lower number of ticket sales by the venue at the time.

Depends on who you believe. IWW have never been renowned for their credibility, I'll give you that. For the record, I purchased tickets with three friends (in Sound Cellar I think?) and each ticket had "ticket no. xxx" on the bottom right corner. We had ticket numbers in sequence. Mine was 167 and I doubt we were the last to buy tickets.

flahavaj

ScumdogV2 wrote: »

Depends on who you believe. IWW have never been renowned for their credibility, I'll give you that. For the record, I purchased tickets with three friends (in Sound Cellar I think?) and each ticket had "ticket no. xxx" on the bottom right corner. We had ticket numbers in sequence. Mine was 167 and I doubt we were the last to buy tickets.

Could be like hotel rooms.:pac:

geeky

Can I just ask for a bit of an update here - has IWW 'fallen'?

Would be good to know if they have packed it in before any post-morten is made. if that's happened, I'm going to feel very stupid, for reasons I won't explain here!

Bounty Hunter

sorry that was just the title i chose when splitting the posts from the Irish promotion sticky, it has def fallen from where it was though from reading the posts so far but it is still in existance unlike The Rise and Fall of WCW for example.

geeky

Ah k no worries!

RAMPAGE1

I feel very saddened by this thread I really enjoyed IWW when I supported them as a promotion I think in three years I miss a total of three shows and like most of us on here I had high expectations for the promotion and in fairness the promotion had high expectations of itself. I remember attending all those cold Gym wars in winter time and having the utmost respect for the wrestlers who always put on a show.
In my opinion the real reason that the promotion failed is that it forgot what was most important in a promotion and that was the fans as long as people come to shows you can be successful. I have travelled to every corner of this country and at times I've watched complete garbage but in my opinion that comes with being a wrestling fan not every show will be great but the promotion has to find a way to keep you. IWW simply fell out with pratically everybody it dealt with. It lost numerous trainers over petty little reasons. Maybe I'm wrong along with about 300 other people and maybe Simon has been right all along but I doubt it. In truth the people I know in Wrestling today in this country are by and large a pretty decent bunch of people who enjoy performing and most of them do a great job in the process. Looking from the outside IWW had a hard working bunch of guys who busted their ass to deliver a product but the product lacked leadership in its basic form. From what I witnessed was a pure lack of respect from the top. I was the kind of guy who always insisted on paying in even when I could have gotten in for free and why because it was a show of respect that if guys were willing to bust their asses in the ring and put it on the line then my 5 euro gym war ticket was a drop in the ocean. Just look what's happening to WWE at the moment by disrespecting it fans its become a kid show and now they are probably running the smallest arenas ever apart from Mania which always sells big, most of their merch sucks and in general I can miss an episode of raw and not really care. The other reason was its own internal self importance and its lack of ability to think outside of itself if you go back about four years ago I don't think anybody could argue that with the exception of a few workers NWA had by and large the best workers in the country yet IWW couldn't see the benefits of working with these guys in a mutual beneficial way. I remember being let down by the way the whole NWA/IWW angle fell apart because personalities got in the way but this could have been the biggest step that Irish wrestling did. We can talk till the cows come home about flyers, promoting, street work, Rings not arriving, Lack of Internet presence and all that but in reality IWW lost its fanbase because it **** all over them and disrespected them. This isn't me having a go at IWW or Simon like I said at the start it saddens me how it has unfolded but I guess everybody could see it coming except for those who could affect it the most. Just my thoughts on it

pingu_girl

I used to enjoy going to IWW shows. I did

leggo

I'm not trying to defend IWW by the way. 2005 were the glory days, but since the Winter of 2006 they've gone rapidly downhill and how they're still in business is anyone's guess.

I'll say it once again:

The start of IwW's best period, profit-wise was in the beginning of 2007.

And people seem to confuse going downhill with 'not doing what we think they should be doing'.

Whereas before, Simon was (for example say) 75% focused on wrestling and 25% on other parts of his life. He once would throw EVERYTHING into IwW and make huge sacrifices elsewhere in his life to see that it succeeded. And when he did, IwW did.

Now, I understand, he's scaled back and his focusing on his career outside of wrestling and his personal life. And fair play to the guy...he's perfectly entitled to do that. Smart too: wrestling is a messy business with a LOT more risk than reward. And it can easily catch you in its web and mess up a lot of your life.

Right now, I doubt he's particularly concerned with making huge amounts of profits from the promotion. He's a sensible guy, he KNOWS it isn't going to happen in this 'credit crunch' we're going through. He's promoting now because he enjoys it: he enjoys travelling around the country, putting on a decent show and earning a few bob out of it.

What people don't realise was that this was ALWAYS the route he was looking to go. Granted, with a lot more profit margins, but this is the world we're living in. But the plan was ALWAYS, after Year 5, to turn IwW into a touring company.

Run the odd spot show and sell-on show, tour with a small, reliable crew in regular reliable spots. It's a plan that also allows him to focus more on his life outside of wrestling too.

I know because I was there in Year 3 trying to come up with ways to achieve this with him.

And I'm sorry to let you all know, but whether boards.ie liked that plan or not didn't (and doesn't) matter. If you wanted to follow along, great! If not, oh well. Because it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what people here think when it comes to profit and loss.

And imo, THAT'S why there's an issue with Irish Whip on here. Nobody will admit it...of course they won't. They'll cry, "Ohhhh I just care SO DARN MUCH about the future of the Irish professional wrestling industry! I lose sleep at night because of it!"

But what winds people up is that there's a promotion out there, who has done well in the past and could likely do well again in the future, and the 15 people who post here regularly can think or say or do whatever you like about it...but it won't make a lick of difference.

Luas Lane

Ive only ever been to one iww show it was at the start of the year and it was pretty good i thought. But now i can understand why people have a problem or dislike for them. They will post up the results of their shows after they happen. There were a few more of their shows i would have gone to if i would have known in time. Now im not going to bad mouth them because the one time i did see them i enjoyed it and my mates sister brought her kids to a show in the Green Isle Hotel a few months ago and she said it was a good show. Ive also heard here that a lot of their roster has left them and that their running shows with 4 wrestlers in front of bad crowds and had shows in England cancelled. Is this all true or is it only talk???

Rawm2008

The cancelled show in england is true, its in the ukff event section i would post link but dont think its aloud.

As or running shows with 4 guys thats true, if u check there posted results youll see that on the last bunch of tours theyve ran shows with maybe 5 IWW guys and one or two brits in tow. Putten on bout 4-5 matches.

the flananator

leggo wrote: »

I'll say it once again:

The start of IwW's best period, profit-wise was in the beginning of 2007.

And people seem to confuse going downhill with 'not doing what we think they should be doing'.

Whereas before, Simon was (for example say) 75% focused on wrestling and 25% on other parts of his life. He once would throw EVERYTHING into IwW and make huge sacrifices elsewhere in his life to see that it succeeded. And when he did, IwW did.

Now, I understand, he's scaled back and his focusing on his career outside of wrestling and his personal life. And fair play to the guy...he's perfectly entitled to do that. Smart too: wrestling is a messy business with a LOT more risk than reward. And it can easily catch you in its web and mess up a lot of your life.

Right now, I doubt he's particularly concerned with making huge amounts of profits from the promotion. He's a sensible guy, he KNOWS it isn't going to happen in this 'credit crunch' we're going through. He's promoting now because he enjoys it: he enjoys travelling around the country, putting on a decent show and earning a few bob out of it.

What people don't realise was that this was ALWAYS the route he was looking to go. Granted, with a lot more profit margins, but this is the world we're living in. But the plan was ALWAYS, after Year 5, to turn IwW into a touring company.

Run the odd spot show and sell-on show, tour with a small, reliable crew in regular reliable spots. It's a plan that also allows him to focus more on his life outside of wrestling too.

I know because I was there in Year 3 trying to come up with ways to achieve this with him.

And I'm sorry to let you all know, but whether boards.ie liked that plan or not didn't (and doesn't) matter. If you wanted to follow along, great! If not, oh well. Because it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what people here think when it comes to profit and loss.

And imo, THAT'S why there's an issue with Irish Whip on here. Nobody will admit it...of course they won't. They'll cry, "Ohhhh I just care SO DARN MUCH about the future of the Irish professional wrestling industry! I lose sleep at night because of it!"

But what winds people up is that there's a promotion out there, who has done well in the past and could likely do well again in the future, and the 15 people who post here regularly can think or say or do whatever you like about it...but it won't make a lick of difference.

I don't know about this. To say that the criticism that IWW receives on here is irrelevant would be fair enough, if IWW were doing great business, which they are not, or if they ever did great business, which, besides the string of shows that youcite as being profitable in early 2007, I'm not convinced it has.

IWW has clearly been losing money for years. Its early NBA shows clearly lost money, or Simon would have run more than just two of them. Personally, I have been to many IWW house shows that were so poorly attended theres no way these events broke even (fair enough, I have no access to IWW's accounts, but I'm confident in my assumption).

Moreover, to say that IWW couldn't learn some things from posts on here is really the equivalent of wearing rose tinted glasses; IWW's most recent card at the NBA was a disaster of a show whereby two thirds of (the already modest) crowd had left by half-time. If the powers that be had read some of the critiscisms of fans on here, such as my lengthly review of the show (and remember, these people HAD purchased tickets to the show, we are IWW's customers afterall), perhaps Simon and company could learn from their mistakes. Listening to your customers and taking their opinions on board...ah screw it. It wouldn't make a 'lick of difference', right? Right. IWW would probably still be in the shitter.

leggo

But Flan, here's the thing, there's nobody here who can give credible advice because nobody who posts here regularly here has run a successful wrestling promotion in the design that IwW would like. Wrestling.ie are probably the only people who've come close.

Criticism and business advice is a COMPLETELY different matter. As fans, everyone here is entitled to give feedback and criticism.

But, I know myself, I stop listening when it comes to ANYTHING when the line between "I enjoyed this/didn't enjoy this..." and "You should do this this and this" is crossed. In any field: wrestling, radio, work etc etc. Because unless said person has done this this and this and it's worked on the level that I'm looking to make it work, then the advice is null and void.

And I guarantee you that anyone in a similar position thinks the same.

As far as successful numbers goes, I'll give you some more examples:

2005: The SFX shows (with only D-Day being a disappointment crowd wise). Earned a VERY tidy sum for performing weekly in Trabolgan.
2006: Considered 'the glory days' by most here. Nuff said.
2007: First six months drew great, then a tour in October featuring some fantastic houses (some stinkers too, but that happens in a tour)
2008: Great March tour run in the same vein as October with similar results. NBA show turns a nice profit. Cork show...nuff said, but couldn't be helped. Run a couple of tours afterwards that play to moderate houses.

That's 3.5 years sustained success. On the balance of things, not bad eh?

the flananator

leggo wrote: »

2005: The SFX shows (with only D-Day being a disappointment crowd wise). Earned a VERY tidy sum for performing weekly in Trabolgan.

Trabolgan I buy, the SFX shows I'm more skeptical of due to the overheads involved, but like I've already said I have no access to IWW's accounts so I can't really contradict you here. One question though; if Trabolgan was so successful, how come IWW never ran there again?

leggo wrote: »

2006: Considered 'the glory days' by most here. Nuff said.

But Leggo you don't care about what 'most here' think, do you? Hence discounting their opinions as worthless in one post and using them as a tool to validate a point made in another post doesn't hold up with me. Moreover, we're talking about business here; bums on seats, profits made, etc. In that regard, what fans consider to be IWW's artistic glory days is irrelevant.

leggo wrote: »

2007: First six months drew great, then a tour in October featuring some fantastic houses (some stinkers too, but that happens in a tour)

Look, I wasn't at any of these shows so I won't comment. BUT I have been at several IWW cards in Kildare that simply had to have lost money. It seems to me that for every strong house IWW pulls, there will be another show that fails to draw. I'm also curious as what to you constitutes a 'strong' house. 200 people?

leggo wrote: »

2008: Great March tour run in the same vein as October with similar results. NBA show turns a nice profit. Cork show...nuff said, but couldn't be helped.

NBA show turns a nice profit? Come on now! Really? The place was half full! The only way I can see this show breaking even is through the never ending intermission when IWW desperately attempted to persuade parents to pay through the nose for autographs with the IWW stars...an attempt that worked I might add, but alienated a huge portion of the crowd to the point where most left and likely killed IWW in the Tallagth market. So while the show may have broken even, it came at the price of killing the market, and any profits made would have been sucked in the financial black-hole created by the Cork debacle the next day, anyway.

leggo wrote: »

Run a couple of tours afterwards that play to moderate houses.

Moderate houses means money losing shows, am I right?

leggo wrote: »

That's 3.5 years sustained success. On the balance of things, not bad eh?

I would call it 3.5 years of hits and misses, personally.

Look, I could nit-pick at your arguments all day, but I get the impression I'm not going to get anywhere here. Ultimately, I have never seen the IWW profit and loss book, so any points I make about IWW's profitability are moot. Probably only Simon knows how much IWW has made and lost over the years. I have to concede that. However, you too must surely concede that however much quick cash as IWW made off spot-shows since its inception, when one looks at the big picture, IWW likely has had as many misses as its had hits, and in end has failed to fully cultivate Ireland as a territory and has failed as business in the long run.

leggo

I hate point-counterpoints. That's when you know the debate is going around in circles.

They didn't run Trabolgan again, simply, because the person in charge of organising entertainment left and his replacement didn't want wrestling on the schedule. With sell-on shows, you can't just book yourself in. You can only put in proposals and wait for a call essentially. If someone wants to save cash, they're much more likely to fill the slot with their own entertainers.

There are several house shows you can isolate as examples of bad drawing. When you run the volume of shows that IwW did at its peak...that's ALWAYS going to happen. Especially considering the resources at their disposal. But you'd be surprised what can profit.

Blanch, for example, was my hometown and had THE most erratic drawing patterns ever. I had the promotion down to a tee...with heavy contacts in local businesses, school and media that would always help us out. One show would sell-out, the next show average, next show terrible, next show sell-out, next show terrible. No rhyme or reason. The only thing that changed was whatever stories we were pushing in the local media. That's literally it.

Our last show there was the worst. I think 30 people or so turned up. A disaster. And no good reason for it either. BUT it still made money because of various factors that I'd put into place beforehand. So 30 people can make you a profit if you know how to make a profit to begin with.

A good house depends on SOOO many different things. There's not one, round, average figure that I can give you there. 200 people would be spectacular in Clondalkin but a disaster in the Donnycarney Youth Centre. You weigh it up on a show-by-show basis, then later on town-by-town when you're familiar with the territory.

Rule of thumb though, as with all businesses, is to make a profit. So if you do that then you can consider it a job well done on the whole.

But there's so much more to running a promotion than just putting on shows and hoping to turn a profit. That's what I think people don't see here. It's what wrestlers in the promotion didn't see or understand. It's what a lot of promotions circulating now and in previous times have failed to see either (you can spot them a mile off). And it's the difference between running a business and running a dream into the ground.

If you don't see what Irish Whip has done for pro-wrestling in the country though...you're either jaded or don't have a clue what you're talking about, imo.

The Cannibal

For me personally, I think it is my philosophy that comes into conflict with IwW. To me, you should tough it out in the short term with an eye on breaking a threshold in the long term and becoming something more than just another indy which FWA in the UK were very close to doing in the early millenium but they over reached too fast.

A lot of promoters have the opposite philosophy, in that they look at the short term and look at milking as much money out of spot shows as possible at the expense of developing the long term.

10 year old Timmy might get his parents to bring him to a local wrestling show that he saw a poster for and the audience might be full of little Timmy's who give a good one off house. String these together in different towns and you might have a tour of strong houses, but what about repeat business? Little Timmy is unlikely to become a loyal IwW fan on the type of show that is presented. He'll go right back to his WWE and the percentage rate for repeat business off of Timmy will go down everytime the town is subsequently hit because he knows what he is going to see, he's already got his photo and autograph and he has no connection with the local guys like he does with John Cena. The wrestling in his hometown novelty was what got him in the door but there was nothing put forth to entice him back as he was walking out of the door. They'll just rely on him seeing a poster again and hoping that is enough.

WWE get away with audiences full of Timmy's because they are WWE and Timmy will go see them once or twice a year when they come and have his parents drop cash at the merchandise stand too.

Every well known indy alternative to WWE that has lasted over a length of time has been built off of loyal local wrestling fans who will follow them if catered to. They will attend every near by show, they might even drag a few friends to them. They'll buy the DVD's, they'll read the website, they'll debate whether Red Vinny or Vic Viper should get the title, they'll get the t-shirts and they will become invested in the product and be your core audience. Timmy will still come, just put up the poster with wrestling on it.

ROH, ECW, CHIKARA, PWG, DRAGON GATE USA, XPW, CZW, FWA, MLW, and numerous other well known indy examples over the years have been built on a core loyal audience who follow everything they do and then they gradually expanded upon it. Some have succeeded at a level, some went bust and some nearly went national but pretty much any indy that achieves a level of notoriety and sells DVDs has followed the loyal fan model.

If IwW is happy with the current 6 man show tour model that's fine, but with all the potential it had, if he planned to do that all along then he probably should have sold it off at its peak.

ScumdogV2

leggo wrote: »

I'll say it once again:

The start of IwW's best period, profit-wise was in the beginning of 2007.

I doubt many fans care when IWW's best period was profit-wise. When I mentioned the glory years, for me anyway, being in 2005 and ending towards the end of 2006, I was talking about quality-wise.

the flananator

leggo wrote: »

I hate point-counterpoints. That's when you know the debate is going around in circles.

They didn't run Trabolgan again, simply, because the person in charge of organising entertainment left and his replacement didn't want wrestling on the schedule. With sell-on shows, you can't just book yourself in. You can only put in proposals and wait for a call essentially. If someone wants to save cash, they're much more likely to fill the slot with their own entertainers.

There are several house shows you can isolate as examples of bad drawing. When you run the volume of shows that IwW did at its peak...that's ALWAYS going to happen. Especially considering the resources at their disposal. But you'd be surprised what can profit.

Blanch, for example, was my hometown and had THE most erratic drawing patterns ever. I had the promotion down to a tee...with heavy contacts in local businesses, school and media that would always help us out. One show would sell-out, the next show average, next show terrible, next show sell-out, next show terrible. No rhyme or reason. The only thing that changed was whatever stories we were pushing in the local media. That's literally it.

Our last show there was the worst. I think 30 people or so turned up. A disaster. And no good reason for it either. BUT it still made money because of various factors that I'd put into place beforehand. So 30 people can make you a profit if you know how to make a profit to begin with.

A good house depends on SOOO many different things. There's not one, round, average figure that I can give you there. 200 people would be spectacular in Clondalkin but a disaster in the Donnycarney Youth Centre. You weigh it up on a show-by-show basis, then later on town-by-town when you're familiar with the territory.

Rule of thumb though, as with all businesses, is to make a profit. So if you do that then you can consider it a job well done on the whole.

But there's so much more to running a promotion than just putting on shows and hoping to turn a profit. That's what I think people don't see here. It's what wrestlers in the promotion didn't see or understand. It's what a lot of promotions circulating now and in previous times have failed to see either (you can spot them a mile off). And it's the difference between running a business and running a dream into the ground.

If you don't see what Irish Whip has done for pro-wrestling in the country though...you're either jaded or don't have a clue what you're talking about, imo.

You're right, we're going around in circle. Either being at the centre of IWW for so long makes your assessment of its successes and failures more valid than mine, or it just gives you rose-tinted glasses; I don't know. Either way, I'm happy to leave the IWW debate there.

simon ritchie

wow lads i have a headache reading this...

basically some people have a pro iww stance and some dont. thats fine. neither side is going to change their mind or bend on their thinking....so i reckon just moving on is the best way...

because the whole thing is SUBJECTIVE there is no way an agreement can be reached...1 perons may think the sun shines out of maxers arse and the other might think that captain rooney is the next bret hart....it doesnt matter

wrestling was fun in 05....not so much now....

and as for iww running a tight crew....dixon and all the big old school promoters in the uk use the same small crew with the odd fly in, its nothing new in wrestling...

anyway lads...good to see so much debate on irish wrestling......now GO TO A SHOW AND SUPPORT IT WITH YOUR WALLET!!