Irish Language - should it be a compulsary school subject?

turgon

I did Irish for 14 years in school, and I cant speak much now. While me not being able to speak it is a separate issue the fact remains that this lack of Irish has never had a negative impact on my like. I have never been in a situation where Ive had to speak Irish. I could live out the rest of my life never uttering a word of it again and it would make no real difference. The 14 years of compulsory Irish have apparently made no positive contribution to my life.

Contrast that to Europe, where I was traveling for a month of late. There were plenty of times where I had to use French, Italian and German (and Eastern European languages but they're far too hard to pronounce). So given that Ive never had to use Irish, and Ive certainly have had to use German, the natural corollary would be that it would be more useful to have compulsory German than Irish.

So from a totally pragmatic and realistic perspective, the compulsory learning of Irish is flawed and lacks use.

The main argument for the preservation current scenario is to do with culture, heritage and nationalism, and is tied to the whole idea of being "proud of where you came from." While I can appreciate that some people are attracted by this I most certainly am not. Yet I will still be "forced" to have my children learn Irish just for this cultural ideal held by, presumably, the majority of people.

Thoughts, opinions etc?

LadyJ

I think it should be optional. That way, if you feel so strongly about heritage etc. then you can go and learn it and if not then you can just pick something different and more useful, like French, German, Spanish etc.

Either way, I think primary school is the time to start teaching children a second language if they are to have any hope of becoming fluent. Teaching people in secondary school is just too late, imo.

If it was compulsory up to 6th class and then optional on entry into secondary school, that'd be a better system.

Joey the lips

Yes irish language should be compulsary. In fact i am going to go further and say it should be encouraged in state institutions. We do not use it enough. There has been a lot of work done on the irish language to get it an official language of the EU. To get certain jobs in the EU you need to speak 3 languages. English Irish and french or "A" another. If irish was not an official language you would have to learn 2 more. say french and german.

The biggest failure of society is not to embrace its own culture heritage tradition and practice it. To say because you have not seen it in europe highlights the greater failure of Irish society as a whole. Even the American Indians who are virtually wiped out still practice there own language.

I am as guilty of this as the next person!

ChocolateSauce

In primary school, it should be up to the parents, in secondary school, it should be up to the students soley. It shouldn't be a requirement to get into University.

It should also be taken off of life support. I think that if people realised that it wasn't going to be kept alive by the state, they'd get their asses in gear and speak it.

As it stands, it is a spoken by only an extremely tiny minority of people on a regular basis, and it is practically criminal the amount of money which is wasted on it; at a time when we have so little money, it is obscene that we're spending hundreds of millions a year on flogging a dead horse, especially on the translation of state documents into Irish.

Joey the lips wrote:

If irish was not an official language you would have to learn 2 more. say french and german.

You mean you'd need to know three useful languages instead of two? Oh my...

Turgon wrote:

The main argument for the preservation current scenario is to do with culture, heritage and nationalism, and is tied to the whole idea of being "proud of where you came from." While I can appreciate that some people are attracted by this I most certainly am not. Yet I will still be "forced" to have my children learn Irish just for this cultural ideal held by, presumably, the majority of people.

Thoughts, opinions etc?

I don't see how altering the mechanics of how we make noise to communicate would affect our culture, so in total agreement there. The Irish will be just as Irish either way.

metrovelvet

I have met far far too many Irish people who have had 12 years of Irish and cant speak it. So no, it shouldnt be compulsory since it is obviously isnt being taught effectively.

turgon

Joey the lips wrote: »

Yes irish language should be compulsary. In fact i am going to go further and say it should be encouraged in state institutions. We do not use it enough.

But the question is why should we use it instead of English? Instead of focusing our money and energies on a language that isnt necessary whatsoever, we could be equipping future generations with the ability to work abroad.

Culture is fine and all, but what you are saying is that it should be force fed to us at humongous costs, even though we may not want it.

Joycey

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I don't see how altering the mechanics of how we make noise to communicate would affect our culture, so in total agreement there. The Irish will be just as Irish either way.

What about that amazonian tribe whos language doesnt permit recursion in sentences? For example, they cant say "i was going to the shop when he said 'you cant walk down there'". This has profound implications for the way they perceive the world. They are unable to refer to anything unless they, or someone they have directly spoken to, has experienced it. They have no conception of ancestry or any of the other multitude of things which you may feel simply relies on the "mechanics of how we make noise to communicate". Given this extreme example, it should be apparent that the language which we speak has a significant influence on the way we experience the world. To lose a mode of experiencing the world is a loss of richness in our lives.

I speak practically no Irish, but I wish I did. Theres definitely something seriously wrong with the way that its taught in the country, I would say largely down to the fact that most Irish teachers (that ive come across) cant teach to save their lives, but thats a fact which pertains to most subjects. I dont know how we could better go about protecting the language, but I dont think the state abandoning the effort is the right way to approach it.

Micilin Muc

turgon wrote: »

But the question is why should we use it instead of English? Instead of focusing our money and energies on a language that isnt necessary whatsoever, we could be equipping future generations with the ability to work abroad.

Culture is fine and all, but what you are saying is that it should be force fed to us at humongous costs, even though we may not want it.

Who ever said we should use it instead of English? The state policy is bilingualism, not monolingualism. (see page 6).

It has been proven that bilinguals have better cognitive skills than monolinguals. Given that bilingualism is favourable, what language do you suggest we start speaking? French instead of Irish?

And who says "we may not want it"? The answer is 7% of the population (see page 21).

_michelle_

it is maddness that our government is WASTING :mad::mad: so much €€€€€€ on a language that i have never heard being spoken outside of school,,,, i spent 13 years trying to lean it & to this day i still could tell you my dob in irish,, what a waste of money & time!!:mad::mad:

ardmacha

we could be equipping future generations with the ability to work abroad.

Why shouldn't abroad speak English too? Why should we support their languages at the expense of our own. What an inferiority complex!

The state policy is bilingualism, not monolingualism.

Exactly the State policy is bilingualism, which requires State services to be available in Irish. If people did not learn Irish at school then they could not work for or progress in the State service. There would then be shouts of "discrimination" and any form of bilingualism would become impossible.

turgon

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Who ever said we should use it instead of English?

The poster whose comments I was commenting on, it seems. Joey the lips, that is.

And btw, just because 7% dont want it, does that justify forcing them to have it?

ardmacha wrote: »

Why shouldn't abroad speak English too? Why should we support their languages at the expense of our own. What an inferiority complex!

Because it isnt the mainstream language there!!! What you are doing there is idealizing. Anyone pragmatic can see that Irish isnt spoken, and English is the main primary language of Ireland. We should be reasonable and not spend all our taxpayers money forcing people to keep it alive for no reason at all.

ardmacha wrote: »

Exactly the State policy is bilingualism, which requires State services to be available in Irish.

What is the point when anyone who can speak Irish can speak English?

cici81

I absolutely believe Irish should be a compulsory subject. The key is to change the way it is taught. This has happened at primary level, there's far more focus now on speaking than grammar and writing. I believe that a lot of the snobbery has gone out of Irish, which is also great. I used to be afraid to speak Irish in front of fluent speakers before, for fear I'd say it wrong, now I believe there's much more of a "try it anyway" attitude.

Also, there are loads of situations when I've found Irish useful. For example, when volunteering in Africa, with lots of other nationalities who all spoke English, it was great to be able to speak privately to my boyfriend without being understood by everybody (we all shared one large army tent). It also was a great way to let off steam without being understood, thus avoiding lots of potential tensions in camp. Also, when on conferences with other nationalities also, it's been great to be able to have private chats. And before anyone calls me rude, people around me were chatting privately to each other in Lithuanian/ German/ etc. so we were just adding to the general melange of languages. Another example would be bartering in Turkey, where the locals kept chatting to each other in Turkish (obviously) while we were haggling. Although most of my friends had only very basic Irish, we all had enough to decide amongst ourselves whether or not we were getting value for money, without letting the trader know what we were thinking.

I think people should ignore the snobbier Irish speakers, forget the rubbish way it was taught in the past (and sometimes still is unfortunately), just give it a go. I am a teacher, and I hated Irish when I was a child. If I'd been given the option to give it up I would have, with great joy! But now I'm so delighted I did learn it and am grateful that it was compulsory for me in those early years...

chocgirl

I think Irish should be compulsory too. Disagree with how it's taught though. I think it should be taken on in secondary school, I know children pick up languages better at a younger age but not the way they're taught in Ireland. Most people I've discussed this with seem to have a much better grasp of their second language that they started in secondary school while they struggle to string basic irish sentences together.

ardmacha

What is the point when anyone who can speak Irish can speak English?

Firstly why pander to ignorance.
But everyone who can cycle can walk, why bother with cyclepaths, cycle racks and so forth.

Micilin Muc

turgon wrote: »

And btw, just because 7% dont want it, does that justify forcing them to have it?

I think it does.

turgon wrote: »

Anyone pragmatic can see that Irish isnt spoken

Get your facts straight before you insult Irish speakers with your own made up figures.

Here are some real facts (from page 64):

26,171 people speak Irish on daily basis outside of the education system. Another 14,393 people speak Irish on a daily basis within and outside of the education system. Another 44,669 speak Irish on a weekly basis outside of the education system.

Over 35,500 children attend Gaelscoileanna outside of the Gaeltacht. Go and tell them "no-one speaks Irish".

turgon wrote: »

and English is the main primary language of Ireland.

Of course English is the language most spoken in Ireland, I don't think anybody has claimed otherwise.

turgon wrote: »

We should be reasonable and not spend all our taxpayers money forcing people to keep it alive for no reason at all.

Again, you should get your facts straight. We don't spend all our money on the language.

turgon wrote: »

What is the point when anyone who can speak Irish can speak English?

So that more people will speak Irish. Why do you think??

Joycey

_michelle_ wrote: »

it is maddness that our government is WASTING :mad::mad: so much €€€€€€ on a language that i have never heard being spoken outside of school,,,, i spent 13 years trying to lean it & to this day i still could tell you my dob in irish,, what a waste of money & time!!:mad::mad:

Yeah id recommend learning to speak English properly before you go taking on any other challenges...

Sleepy

What's the advantage of forcing people to learn a completely bastardised version of a language that was to all intents and purposes dead a hundred years ago?

TBH, I'd like to be able to speak Irish but no more than I'd like to be knowlegeable about Latin, the classics, history, other computer languages, philosophy, science etc. The purpose of an education system is to provide our children with a broad knowledge of the world we live in and to prepare them to be capable of contributing positively to our society.

To this end, we need to ensure that students leave school at least literate and numerate. Irish won't die if we stop forcing it on people - those who are interested in it will continue to learn it just as those of us with an interest in economics chose to study it to Leaving Cert level, or those with an interest in chemistry / physics / technical drawing / accounting / French / German / Spanish etc. chose to pursue those areas of study.

If a population has a uniform set of skills, it seems likely to stagnate rather than to be creative and adaptable. Ensuring that our students graduate to the highest standard of the broadest range of skills they can is a good thing imho. Forcing students to pursue anything but the most essential of life skills (i.e. arithmetic and literacy) seems a waste of time when those students will by and large choose to pursue those skills they're best suited to / have the most talent for.

Curriculum reform is certainly required whether the subject is compulsory or not. Pointing that out doesn't make a convincing argument for keeping the subject on a pedastal with the most vital skills our students leave secondary education with, it merely distracts from the question at hand.

Grudaire

Why are English and Maths compulsary?

I personnally have no problem with Irish being made compulsary for the LC - but staying compulsary until 3rd year. AS LONG AS ENGLISH IS TREATED THE SAME.

since we're in the humanities section should the question be 'should anything be compulsary?'?

ballsymchugh

Irish as a subject in secondary should be split into two separate subjects, one focusing like the way french and german are taught, and another focusing on literature.
i love irish, and i love speaking it, but the literature bored the tits off me at school. it's a pretty straight forward language given that there are about 10 irregular verbs (may be 9 or 11!!) which is a lot less than most other languages. so maybe if it was taught like a foreign language up to junior cert to get the grammar and basic reading right, and then the option of taking another literature subject for the leaving?? most of my class dropped down to pass irish for the leaving just to ease the workload.
plus, it increases your chances of scoring the weather girl on tg4. i'd say.

metrovelvet

In general the way foreign languages are taught stinks. I have no idea how Irish is taught, but I know it cant be taught well with the results I have seen.

I know that after a few years of french, my french is decent, and of latin, was ok, but no real chance or use of it so it's pretty much gone. Why the hell do people have to study a language for 10 years or more and barely know any of it.

pog it

A lot of the time when this is being argued the same people who don't think that Irish should be compulsory argue that French or German or Spanish or another foreign language would be much more 'useful' or beneficial to them when in reality there are so few jobs in Ireland where you would use these languages, and in reality there are just as many jobs where you can speak/use Irish as there are with using French (e.g. call centre IT work with a second language) or you can use Irish in the many Gaeltachts who need fluent speakers,.. there are a lot of examples!

The reason you might get the impression that a second language like French etc. would be more beneficial is because any job on irishjobs.ie, recruitireland, etc. advertise in English, whereas the Irish jobs are generally posted in Irish newspapers, radio, etc, and so you don't get the same exposure to them.

I for one didn't have the wherewithal to appreciate Irish in secondary school, I was all about French, loved French, hated Irish.
Now that I still live in my home country Ireland I don't see how French is any advantage, but having Irish is. I have got to the stage where my Irish is ahead of my French now thank God. So I for one am really really glad that the people who are in charge of the education system are doing a good job of keeping it compulsory. And even though I don't use it for a job right now - I may well do in the future -right now it's enough for me to be able to listen to the radio in Irish, watch and understand TG4, speak to friends in Irish, though most speak English of course, and yeah it has become a really enjoyable hobby!

I know that a lot of people like me found they loved Irish after they left school and I'm grateful I did learn it then or I'd have had it a lot harder learning since then.

Irish is never going to be for everyone though and it's a personal decision, but when you're 13 you shouldn't have the responsibility of deciding whether you want to keep on with Irish or not!!!

turgon

ardmacha wrote: »

But everyone who can cycle can walk, why bother with cyclepaths, cycle racks and so forth.

Walking and cycling are two different things with two different advantages. Using Irish and English, at a pragmatic level, achieve exactly the same thing: they facilitate communication.

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Get your facts straight before you insult Irish speakers with your own made up figures.

Apologies for being so reckless in equating voluntary private usage with necessary public usage. I dont doubt that many people speak Irish, I also dont doubt that this is mostly done in either the Gaeltacht and/or in the privacy of the home. Two places where, if Irish is made voluntary, it will continue to be spoken. In the former case it is their primary language, and in the latter case if a family is so interested in Irish they converse in it they will no doubt voluntarily learn it.

Which is what my argument is about; not about stopping teaching people Irish but about allowing parents and young adults who feel it is not in their/their childs benefit to learn it to concentrate on other fields of study they feel may be more beneficial. Like learning a language that is spoken by 50 million; rather than 26 thousand.

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Over 35,500 children attend Gaelscoileanna outside of the Gaeltacht. Go and tell them "no-one speaks Irish".

And if Irish is made non-compulsory this figure will at least stay the same, if not rise.

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Again, you should get your facts straight. We don't spend all our money on the language.

I didnt mean it like that

Micilin Muc wrote: »

So that more people will speak Irish.

Why do you think that that is so necessary?

turgon

Cliste wrote: »

Why are English and Maths compulsary?

I would guess they are more useful. Considering that most people will go on to use English exclusively in terms of careers etc.

pog it wrote: »

there are so few jobs in Ireland where you would use these languages

The key words being "in Ireland." If everyone knew French instead of Irish it would open more career prospects, in the same way learning English opens you up to jobs worldwide.

pog it wrote: »

Irish is never going to be for everyone though and it's a personal decision, but when you're 13 you shouldn't have the responsibility of deciding whether you want to keep on with Irish or not!!!

So basically, make everyone do it for the few that may end up liking it? We could apply that logic to almost any subject.

ChocolateSauce

Joycey wrote: »

What about that amazonian tribe whos language doesnt permit recursion in sentences? For example, they cant say "i was going to the shop when he said 'you cant walk down there'". This has profound implications for the way they perceive the world. They are unable to refer to anything unless they, or someone they have directly spoken to, has experienced it. They have no conception of ancestry or any of the other multitude of things which you may feel simply relies on the "mechanics of how we make noise to communicate". Given this extreme example, it should be apparent that the language which we speak has a significant influence on the way we experience the world. To lose a mode of experiencing the world is a loss of richness in our lives.

This is a very extreme example, although yes a very interesting one. However, even assuming (a pretty big assumption) that Irish is a different enough language from English to alter the way we perceive the world, would this be a desirable perception?

It seems to me that being unable to understand the notion of the past would be a crippling disability for someone from any other culture but this one unique example you've used.

Who ever said we should use it instead of English? The state policy is bilingualism, not monolingualism. (see page 6).

It has been proven that bilinguals have better cognitive skills than monolinguals. Given that bilingualism is favourable, what language do you suggest we start speaking? French instead of Irish?

And who says "we may not want it"? The answer is 7% of the population (see page 21).

I wish we were like the Dutch; if we spoke Irish first and English second, we'd speak English better than the English. However, I think is too late, and I certainly don't think we should force people which second language they should learn; we should merely offer them the chance to learn whichever one(s) they want.

joycey wrote:

Yeah id recommend learning to speak English properly before you go taking on any other challenges...

Says the person who doesn't capitalise his/her "I"'s, or use apostrophes.

whitefox

I'm currently in 6th year and in Honors Irish, I think it should definetly stay compulsary, but be taught as ballsymchugh said, taught as foreign languages are. At least up to Junior Cert, and then to learn useful verses and rhymes, ones that reflect Irishness

Personally, I hated Irish in 1st, 2nd and 3rd year, but I went to a Gaeltacht after my Junior Cert and now I'm considering studying the language in college, I just needed to see that it wasn't all about poems, stories, and learning phrases.

Tiocfadh an t-am The time will come
Is beidh bóthar ar gach logán That there will be a road over every level bit of ground
Teach mór ar gach cnocán A big house on every hill
Droichead thar gach shruthán A bridge over every stream
Béarla ar gach blocán English spoken by every "blockhead"
Cóiste faoi gach breallán A car under every fool
Is an saol uile ina bhrachán Then life will be in a mess

Ceapaim go bhfuil an t-am anseo anois

Greyfox

pog it wrote: »

Irish is never going to be for everyone though and it's a personal decision, but when you're 13 you shouldn't have the responsibility of deciding whether you want to keep on with Irish or not!!!

This is exactly when you should have the choice as this is when you know wheter or not your suited to learing the language and wheter or not your likely to want to use it again after the LC. I think it's very unhealtly to have so many Irish people like myself who genuinely hate their national language (for me it's definitely hate rather then just dislike) but for as long as it's compulsory their will always be adults that hate Irish.

I only know 20 words of Irish and I spent 13 years learning it, for me it was a riddiculous waste of time!

ballsymchugh

Greyfox wrote: »

This is exactly when you should have the choice as this is when you know wheter or not your suited to learing the language and wheter or not your likely to want to use it again after the LC. I think it's very unhealtly to have so many Irish people like myself who genuinely hate their national language (for me it's definitely hate rather then just dislike) but for as long as it's compulsory their will always be adults that hate Irish.

I only know 20 words of Irish and I spent 13 years learning it, for me it was a riddiculous waste of time!

you should hate english too, by the looks of that!!

pog it

turgon wrote: »

I would guess they are more useful. Considering that most people will go on to use English exclusively in terms of careers etc.



The key words being "in Ireland." If everyone knew French instead of Irish it would open more career prospects, in the same way learning English opens you up to jobs worldwide.



So basically, make everyone do it for the few that may end up liking it? We could apply that logic to almost any subject.

Yes Turgon- so many people will move to France or Spain for work.. eh no. Spain has as big if not bigger unemployment problem as we have. And anyway how many want to emigrate to these countries when they leave secondary school eh??

Negative dude/dudette you are. Oh well it won't be down to you if the country ends up bilingual some day we are all dead, or before

A lot of people are pro- the language so the future lies with us.

pog it

Greyfox wrote: »

This is exactly when you should have the choice as this is when you know wheter or not your suited to learing the language and wheter or not your likely to want to use it again after the LC. I think it's very unhealtly to have so many Irish people like myself who genuinely hate their national language (for me it's definitely hate rather then just dislike) but for as long as it's compulsory their will always be adults that hate Irish.

I only know 20 words of Irish and I spent 13 years learning it, for me it was a riddiculous waste of time!

If you hate the Irish language that's your problem mate. There will always be people like you who hate it. And there is no use trying to argue otherwise with people on both sides of this.

Look it, there are people too who hate French, Maths, etc. and who won't need to use the level of maths they've achieved by first year even, so let them decide at 13 whether they want to keep on Maths shall we?

13 year olds should absolutely not have the choice to drop any subject- that is way too young. Would you want to shelve these responsiblities on your own kids, right out of national school? ! Maybe you would, but I definitely wouldn't. But we are on completely different sides of this argument.

whatdoicare

I think I'd prefer Irish if I had a choice in learning it myself instead of under pressure to pass exams. I remember in my final year going straight from speaking Spanish with my dad (he's not Spanish but learned it himself in his 40's as a hobby) to French, to Irish! I was dizzy by the time I got to Irish haha!
I have never spoken French, even though I've been to France many times, never spoken Irish, as I've forgotten it all and the only language I still use is Spanish! What does that say about our education system? (That and my awful grammar!)
I would probably have loved Irish if I hadn't gained a deep hatred of it in school! I'm ashamed to say I managed to work out a system where I was able to answer written questions and the tape test questions purely on matching the question to what was in the paragraph and I learned off a few essays and poems by heart- never really learning the language- I got a B1 in pass Irish btw and using the same system a B3 in honors French!
Haha!:pac:

Micilin Muc

turgon wrote: »

Like learning a language that is spoken by 50 million; rather than 26 thousand.

26,000 is not the correct figure for people who speak Irish. The statistics I linked to show that 26,000 speak Irish on a daily basis outside of the education system. Another 14,000 who are in the education system speak Irish on a daily basis outside of the education system. Together, that's 40,000 who speak Irish on a daily basis.

The number of people who speak Irish, whether it be daily, weekly or less often is 350,000. (page 64 on the CSO Volume 9 of Census 2006). And that's just Ireland. The Irish diaspora in the US, Australia, England and all over the world are learning Irish. I don't have the statistics to hand but I believe there are more adults learning Irish abroad than there are in Ireland.

The reason I'm putting emphasis on these statistics is because the discourse on the Irish language in the English-language media insists on using figures that have no basis.

The argument that no-one speaks Irish is an old argument that no longer holds true. It belongs primarily to the older generation who suffered abuse at the hands of educators and who use the Irish language as a grievance.

Times have changed and Irish is now more fashionable. Conradh na Gaeilge, Gael-Linn, Gaelchultúr, the VECs, GAA clubs and Sinn Féin cumainn in Dublin have had a huge surge in the numbers of students attending their adult classes. There are thousands of people learning Irish in Dublin every week.
As I said earlier, 93.2% of the population are favourable to the Irish language. The question is not "should we make Irish optional", but rather "how can we change the teaching of Irish".

The Language Centre in NUI Maynooth have recently made big changes to the teaching of Irish to adults. The quality of teaching has gone up considerably and will continue to do so.

The Department of Education has changed the Irish syllabus for the Leaving Cert and these changes will be seen in the next few years when the syllabus will be implemented.

turgon wrote: »

Why do you think that that is so necessary?

I'm a big advocate of bilingualism as it's benefits are numerous. Do you have an argument against bilingualism?

Joey the lips

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language

Very interesting article. Especially about the numbers of people.

On learing stuff that is useful! There is a thought! I know all the major rivers of south america. I know all the mountains of france. I know all the industrial areas of germany and I even know the cheese making areas of italy.

Guess what. I will all prob never go to south america. I never climbed a mountain in france. I will never work in germany and i prefere irish cheese to most.

But when I am in a pub and an american or a frenchman or a german askes me why I cannot speak irish to the point of conversation I never feel as low as at this moment.

turgon

@Micilin Muc, you are completely missing the point of the thread. You are speaking of people who voluntarily speak Irish, of people voluntarily learning it at nights and of the Irish diaspora who are voluntarily learning and speaking it. This thread is not about them, its about the non-voluntarily teaching of Irish.

Now, what are these advantage of being bilingual?

Tbh Im being accused of being short sighted but I find that hard to stomach from people who think learning Irish is more important than learning French. Its not just about going to work in France, its about being able to converse with people there you encounter in the course of employment. Its about being willing to go to France for conferences. I fail to see how the only employment based advantage is actually working there full time.

And of course that fact ye fail to realize that Spanish is one of the most spoken languages in the World, and spoken in many many (many) more places than Spain. As is French. Compare with Irish (note how they dont use the world map). I find it frankly ridiculous that people think Irish is more useful than French.

This is not really central to the point either. The point is that we should have the ability to decide on whether we want to learn.

turgon

Joey the lips wrote: »

On learing stuff that is useful! There is a thought! I know all the major rivers of south america. I know all the mountains of france. I know all the industrial areas of germany and I even know the cheese making areas of italy.

Good point. Which is why I would never force you not to learn Irish. However the opposite case, where I find Irish totally useless, doesnt seem to matter a bit to yee.

Joey the lips wrote: »

But when I am in a pub and an american or a frenchman or a german askes me why I cannot speak irish to the point of conversation I never feel as low as at this moment.

So your solution ... make everyone do it?

dlofnep

As someone who's been actively involved in the Gaeilge scene here in my city and college, I'd like to give my input.

It seems, the more I read, and listen to people's concerns - the more I change my opinion on what the best practice is for the Irish language in schools. My answer will never be the same. What I say now may not be my opinion in a year from now, I can only tell you on what I've experienced so far.

Firstly, I am an Irish speaker and use it every day. I took the onus on learning the language myself 3 (ish) years ago. Not once has it ever been a chore for me to learn; in fact quite the opposite. Learning it of my own accord has been quite rewarding. I studied it by reading books, and setting up a conversational group in my city - which simply involved a couple of pints once a week, with the conversation operated in Gaeilge. It was a really relaxed environment, and everybody was at ease with using the language - regardless of whether they could only utter a few basic phrases, or were fluent.

I think there is an issuing in schooling. I don't think the fact that it is compulsory is entirely the issue however, but rather how the curriculum is taught. I firmly believe in more time allocated to conversation, rather than poetry and such.

I don't believe the Irish language should be an academic subject in secondary. I think it should be cultural, with the option of taking exams if your course requires it to get into University. This takes all the pressure off the language, and gets people to enjoy it more. That's the real issue here. Having fun. Of all the people I have spoken to who disliked the language - the constant thing that kept coming up is that they felt the language is forced down their throats.. for lack of better words.

For these people, I think if the classes were more fun and involved less stress due to optional exams, they would have more time to focus on subjects they enjoyed - but also, perhaps even turn their distaste for the language into a genuine liking of the language. Not only that, but if it was more conversational focused - people would actually be able to speak it! And this is surely the most important issue. I think many people have a very valid gripe with not being able to speak the language after X amount of years - so teach it right, and let them have the ability to use it. Then they may not consider it such a waste of time.

I never thought much of Irish in school. It wasn't until I saw it in a relaxed environment that I began to enjoy it. I think this is key.

I think if we remove it completely from mandatory curriculum, it will do harm to the language. But I think if we remove mandatory exams and revamp the curriculum to teach solely conversational Irish, then it can only help the language and remove pressure from students.

You'll find minority languages supported by Governments all across the world.

dlofnep

Also, I don't think we should take a defensive stance with Turgon - We should listen to his gripes, because they are shared by quite a few people. This will help better the Irish language in the long run I feel. If you ignore those who have problems, how will you make it better?

ballsymchugh

@ turgon,
is 13 really an age where you can make a decision like that?? when i was that age i'm pretty sure i hated maths, business studies, mechanical drawing... to name a few, but i just got on with it. 2 of them were my favourite by a mile at leaving cert stage, as was irish. so it should be compulsory. just like english and maths are. if you don't like it after junior cert, you can always knock down to foundation and give it the attention you think it deserves.


@dlofnep, can you pm me info on the meeting up?? a buddy of mine is looking to learn irish to a conversational level and i think an informal situation would suit her perfectly. mile buiochas!

dlofnep

ballsymchugh wrote: »

@dlofnep, can you pm me info on the meeting up?? a buddy of mine is looking to learn irish to a conversational level and i think an informal situation would suit her perfectly. mile buiochas!

Sure.

lizzyvera

cici81 wrote: »

I believe that a lot of the snobbery has gone out of Irish, which is also great. I used to be afraid to speak Irish in front of fluent speakers before, for fear I'd say it wrong, now I believe there's much more of a "try it anyway" attitude.

I found the absolute opposite. I use to like Irish enough and have close relatives on the Aran Islands and only talk Irish to them, so my Irish is ok. I am going out with someone from Donegal, and they completely turn their noses up to my attempts, particularly since I am from Dublin. I regret every hour I spent learning it so I could communicate with these pig-headed hicks.

Luckily languages came easily to me so it wasn't a huge amount of work, and it was useful for LC points because the literature was so vapid it didn't require any intellectual thought. Other than that, total waste of time. I didn't gain anything from it, whereas I gained a lot from studying music and Spanish in school even though I went on to study science in university, because they stayed with me for life.

lizzyvera

dlofnep wrote: »

I think there is an issuing in schooling. I don't think the fact that it is compulsory is entirely the issue however, but rather how the curriculum is taught. I firmly believe in more time allocated to conversation, rather than poetry and such.

I don't believe the Irish language should be an academic subject in secondary. I think it should be cultural, with the option of taking exams if your course requires it to get into University. .

You are forgetting the points system. It's already a very simple course at higher level, probably even easier than English due to the literature being so childish. I often thought I was analysing the work more than the authors had!

I would have been bored stiff by a conversation class because I could already converse. It would have been a complete waste of my time.

We didn't do the set course, we did the chosen one so we could study the "greats" like O Riordan, O Cadhain and O Direain (and some rubbish ones I can't remember- they were actually good). It wasn't as interesting as the English course, but it was certainly more interesting than talking about my hobbies. There are already about 25% of the marks going for conversation. Any diligent student would be motivated by that.

You can't blame the education system for everything. Some students have bad attitudes and are lazy and won't learn. I wasn't lazy, I wasted my time learning a useless language well.

It would be even more useless to me now than it was then- they don't have words in Irish for most of the things I work on or study or talk about with scientists.

The Big Red Button

I think that every primary and secondary school in the country should be obliged to offer Irish at least as a subject choice, right up to Leaving Certificate level.

However I don't think that every student in the country should be forced to study Irish, particularly given the fact that the country is becoming so multicultural. Obviously students that didn't want to learn Irish in primary school would have to be facilitated by running another language class at the same time as Irish is being taught, and I can't realistically see the resources being available for that any time soon.

In my opinion, from when children start primary school, they should study two languages apart from English (whether these languages are French, German, Irish etc would be up to the school) as this would help develop their learning and language skills and make it easier for them to learn additional languages later in life.

FruitLover

Joey the lips wrote: »

But when I am in a pub and an american or a frenchman or a german askes me why I cannot speak irish to the point of conversation I never feel as low as at this moment.

So go and learn it then, no-one is stopping you. What has this got to do with the point of the thread?

dlofnep

lizzyvera wrote: »

You are forgetting the points system. It's already a very simple course at higher level, probably even easier than English due to the literature being so childish. I often thought I was analysing the work more than the authors had!

And what's to stop the point system being revised? Irish is not easy for everyone. Some people are quick to learn a language, others aren't. You're downplaying other people's struggles with learning a second language to be honest.

lizzyvera wrote: »

I would have been bored stiff by a conversation class because I could already converse. It would have been a complete waste of my time.

The vast majority of people can't converse. Why should your attention span hinder people from actually learning to speak the language? Do you suggest they stick with the same nonsense that has left people without the ability to strike up a basic conversation for the past few decades? Because I don't. I believe in major reform, infact reform isn't even apt - it needs a complete overhaul.

lizzyvera wrote: »

You can't blame the education system for everything. Some students have bad attitudes and are lazy and won't learn.

You can't by default - but when the overwhelming majority of people can't speak a language after 13-14 years of learning it, then you absolutely can. Like it or not, the current Irish educational system has failed the public. It needs to be revised, not only in curriculum but in the way it's perceived.

To be honest, your posts smack of elitism. Calling people "pig-headed hicks" and boasting on about how great you are isn't an ideal way to tackle this subject on any sort of functional level.

rainbow kirby

In the interests of keeping the broadest possible curriculum early in secondary education, I think it should be compulsory to Junior Certificate level, but optional at Leaving Certificate. By the time a student gets to about 15-16 years old and is selecting subjects for Leaving Cert, they know (roughly) where their interests lie and they shouldn't be forced to study a subject that many students have no interest in or aptitude for.

Personally - I got an A2 in ordinary level Irish in the LC. Did honours up to the mocks in 6th year, realised I was fighting a losing battle and decided to sacrifice it to concentrate on my other 7 subjects (I am not linguistically minded at all). I hated every minute that I wasted learning the language, and if I'd had the choice I'd have preferred to have taken either Japanese or another science subject. The subject is taught horribly in schools, there is not enough emphasis on practical communication and far too much on the literature - which is a bit of a waste of time, who cares if you can quote poetry if you can barely tell someone your name and age in the language?

lizzyvera

dlofnep wrote: »

Calling people "pig-headed hicks" and boasting on about how great you are isn't an ideal way to tackle this subject on any sort of functional level.

I was talking about people I met in one region, and they were pig-headed hicks and I stand by that. Obviously I wasn't referring to my family in the west (which is why it came easily to me, not because I'm great, which you're saying I said, even though I mentioned that I spent summers speaking Irish, which was just nastiness on your part, but enough of that)

Maybe ordinary level could be just conversation, essays and comprehensions. I really don't think that would be suitable for higher level LC after 12 years of learning the language. That would be the same level as is expected after 6 years learning a European language.

I do think the literature section of the JC could be removed because some people don't know the future tense etc at that stage.

But as for LC, some people are actually interested in the language and literature and culture. It wouldn't really be right to just have a conversational subject for them, they wouldn't learn anything and so it would be a waste of students' time and taxpayers' money. Some people speak it as a first language, and a conversation-based course for them would be a complete joke.

I really don't like proposals to dumb down our education. It's already poor enough, universities are constantly complaining that none of us come out of secondary school knowing how to think or work hard. Let people who genuinely like Irish do the interesting parts and let people who want to do something else like physics or metalwork forget about genitive cases and Ireland-back-in-the-day stories.

dlofnep

lizzyvera wrote: »

Maybe ordinary level could be just conversation, essays and comprehensions. I really don't think that would be suitable for higher level LC after 12 years of learning the language. That would be the same level as is expected after 6 years learning a European language.

Wouldn't be suitable for higher level LC? The object of language study is to teach someone how to use the language. I've seen people who did honours Irish for the LC and can just about string about a conversation.

You're overlooking the importance of language immersion, as it is the most important aspect of learning a language. It is vital for all students, and the best process for language immersion is conversational classes.

More elitism to be honest.

lizzyvera wrote: »

It wouldn't really be right to just have a conversational subject for them, they wouldn't learn anything and so it would be a waste of students' time and taxpayers' money.

What?

They would learn how to speak the language. How would they not learn anything? Learning how to speak a language is much more important than memorizing a poem. I don't think they should all be removed completely - just much more weight towards conversational Irish.

lizzyvera wrote: »

Some people speak it as a first language, and a conversation-based course for them would be a complete joke.

And you'll find the majority of these people who speak it as a first language in An Ghaeltacht - where their schooling is through the Irish medium.

So on that logic - what you're really saying is, scrap the idea of conversational classes, that will actually give students the ability to speak the language, because one or two kids from the Gaeltacht or who's parents are from the Gaeltacht might find the level of Irish less challenging? And what - forgo the improved level of fluency for 99% of the other students?

Nonsense.

lizzyvera wrote: »

I really don't like proposals to dumb down our education.

Conversational classes aren't "dumbing down" education. They are improving it. I'm speaking from experience as a person who learned more functional Irish in 3 years, meeting with a conversational group once a week for 2 hours - than I ever did in 13 years of school.

lizzyvera wrote: »

It's already poor enough

Yes it is poor, but adding focus on conversational Irish isn't going to make it poorer.

lizzyvera wrote: »

universities are constantly complaining that none of us come out of secondary school knowing how to think or work hard.

How is adding focus to conversational Irish going to alter one's ability to work or think hard? Seriously, explain.

lizzyvera

Maybe my school was weird... city centre, waaaaaay away from any gaeltacht and the honours class could speak Irish quite well. I thought that was normal after eight years of learning conversational Irish in primary school and three years of grammar and comprehension for JC. Your proposal would definitely be a dumbing down compared to what we did. We already spoke Irish in the class. Is Irish not compulsary in primary schools anymore? Is it given less time? I think they do science and everything now.

I can't remember exactly the marks break down, but it actually was mostly a language exam. There was an oral, an aural, an essay on something topical, comprehensions, about ten poems and three or four stories you had to read in advance. Most of that was learning to use the language. The analysis of the literature wasn't anything like you were expected to do in English. I think it was only worth about a third of the marks.

A change in classroom teaching and not the exam is probably all that's needed. Speaking it more in the class. Grants to go to the gaeltacht etc. I think the exam is a good measure of work. If it was purely language it would be an A1 on a plate for anyone who can speak it.

dlofnep

lizzyvera wrote: »

Your proposal would definitely be a dumbing down compared to what we did.

No, it wouldn't. It would focus on the most important aspect of the language and environment for the language, which has been seriously neglected in education.

It has been proven that the most functional way to learn a language is through language immersion - conversational classes provide for this. The fact that I took on board more Irish in 3 years spending 1 night a week with a conversational group than I did throughout 13 years of education is very telling.

The educational system doesn't work. This isn't a myth or a rumour, or even my opinion - it's a fact, and is seen every year in schools across the state. The fact that the majority of people can't converse even partially-fluent after the leaving cert is a clear indication that something needs to change.

People want to learn how to speak the language, and use it in a real situation. There is seriously no point in spending weeks memorizing poetry when you can barely converse about even the most simple topics.

turgon

As regards the issue that has cropped up in the last page about where the focus should be. When I think of learning a language fully I think of being able to immerse myself in people who speak that language and be able to communicate with them fully. I dont see how the focus could be otherwise because a language is fundamentally a means by which to communicate.

lizzyvera: I would consider your case about 1 or 2 in a 100. The people who scored high in LC Irish in my school didn't know how to speak in Irish, but they certainly knew how to reel off their teachers opinion on the state of the Irish health service. I went through Irish for 14 years and I cant speak it. Simply because by the time I was going into secondary school the focus had shifted from conversation to technical details and Irish literature. Which bore no relevance to me, so I slacked off.

In this regard perhaps the solution would be to have 2 Irish courses: "Irish conversational" and "Irish literature and advanced communication". Within terms of our current system the former would be compulsory and the later voluntary for those who, like you, enjoy studying Irish literature.

At the end of the day one of the main reasons I argue against compulsory Irish is because 14 have served me nothing except perhaps to ask where the toilet it.

turgon

Kudos to dlofnep for his post, which was the best from someone arguing for the current system.

Now obviously he has taken great pleasure out of Irish and the question to be asked is that if we had proper curricula, where people left school with the ability to speak Irish, how many more would get such pleasure? Obviously quite a large amount. However, does this justify making everyone do it? And as a sub question, if it were voluntary how do we ensure those who would enjoy it end up doing it?

There are various stages at which one could make Irish voluntary. I think there is no reason why we cant make Irish at leaving cert level voluntary. At this stage the student has gone through 11 years of Irish already, and if they cant speak it now they wont be able to at the end of 2/3 years of exam orientated learning. Also, at 15 or 16, they are probably old enough to gauge their own desire. Like other subjects, they can evaluate their choice based on whether they enjoyed the previous few years.

Given too that their choice would be based on their own level of Irish, the onus would be on the DoE to provide good Irish teaching as a necessary mechanism for encouraging students to continue.

Side point: dlofnep brought up having Irish as a non-exam subject. This, imo, would never work. I did my LC in 2008, and the atmosphere of modern day LC is just to get the best points possible so as to get into Uni/other future. From my own personal experience, I only put work into the subjects which would count for points. So if it were a non-exam subject, why would students bother? Unless of course they had a genuine love of the subject, in which case they would choose it voluntarily anyway.

dlofnep

turgon wrote: »

In this regard perhaps the solution would be to have 2 Irish courses: "Irish conversational" and "Irish literature and advanced communication". Within terms of our current system the former would be compulsory and the later voluntary for those who, like you, enjoy studying Irish literature.

Yup, I had suggested such an idea before. I think it would be good.

turgon wrote: »

At the end of the day one of the main reasons I argue against compulsory Irish is because 14 have served me nothing except perhaps to ask where the toilet it.

I understand your pain & concerns. All personal feelings aside, do you think you would think differently on Irish if the education was operated in such a way that had given you 100% fluent Irish by the time you finished school, and do you feel that a portion of the stigma is due to you not getting your bang for your buck persay?