Has Irish Independence Been A Success?

Bock the Robber

Is Ireland a better place thanks to independence?

PomBear

Yes, considering we have functioned extremely well for our small little island in the Atlantic. The standard of living is extremely high and we have great prospects for the future

Mr. Presentable

Well, I'd say that judging by the complete lack of British bobbies on our streeets, yes, a resounding one.

stepbar

Ask yourself this, would you rather be ruled from the commons?

ballsymchugh

probably. we are a hell of a lot more liberal than britland, no matter what anyone says. foreigners there are treated with a lot of suspicion, and while there's a degree of it here, it's nowhere near as bad. spent 7 years there and couldn't wait to leave.
around the time of independence there was serious suppression of GAA and irish language, so from those points i'd say we're better. our education system is way better for all it's faults too.

tennessee time

are the jews better off since they were freed from the nazi concentration camps??

stepbar

Well you only have to look at whats happening on the streets of Birmingham to decipher that Ireland are are better off being independent from the UK.

ballsymchugh

although, why are some people still paying ground rent to lords in the uk on the houses that they own? still think that's a shame. even the GPO is subject to it!

flamez911

tennessee time wrote: »

are the jews better off since they were freed from the nazi concentration camps??

Holy crap, did you just equate Ireland under the Act of Union to the Holocaust? That's a pretty goddamn extreme comment and better have some backing up.

Terrontress

stepbar wrote: »

Well you only have to look at whats happening on the streets of Birmingham to decipher that Ireland are are better off being independent from the UK.

I don't mean to ask the obvious but what is happening on the streets of Birmingham?

The accent is awful but I am not aware of anything brewing on the streets.

Daftendirekt

Overall, yes.

We still have a lot of work to do though.

Terrontress

ballsymchugh wrote: »

although, why are some people still paying ground rent to lords in the uk on the houses that they own? still think that's a shame. even the GPO is subject to it!

I'd say in order for the British to have willingly signed Ireland over, they must have agreed that there would be no forcible removal of property. Same thing that if Ireland were to become 32 county, anyone who leaves Northern Ireland to go to the UK will still own their house and property unless they sell them.

Our man in Havana

I will say no.

What have we to show for it? A bunch of self serving policitians with no sense of right or wrong who have run the country into the ground.

Bock the Robber

Ground rent is irrelevant. Bobbies are irrelevant.

It wasn't the question asked, which was this: is Ireland a better place as a result of independence?

Rosita

"Is Ireland a better place thanks to independence?"

An impossible question to answer in many ways as the alternative narrative is an unknown, and it is a very very broad question too. Does it mean better politically, economically, socially, culturally etc.?

It is probably too early to say really as we still have so much post-colonial crap going on.

But Scotland, for example, has hardly prospered under the union in the past 90 years.

I would say Independence was overwhelmingly a good thing and will be seen to be a good thing in the long run. Whether it is a better place as a result is impossible to say but it certainly is a different place and I think that is a good start.

FTA69

All we have achieved is a banana republic dominated by an elite of self-serving politicians and an economic elite. Nothing to write home about in other words.

mike65

Independence has only worked as part of a greater body of nations - who have thrown 30 billion euro at the place since 1973.

Terrontress

FTA69 wrote: »

All we have achieved is a banana republic dominated by an elite of self-serving politicians and an economic elite. Nothing to write home about in other words.

Well, at least we have not gone down the road of far right parties which is not something that a lot of European countries can boast.

All politicians are self-serving and I think that, given the relative infancy of the Oireachtas, we have not had the time to implement correct checks and balances.

mike65

You think it would be rushing things after nearly 90 years?

PomBear

Hopefully a United Ireland will be achieve soon then I would call it 100% successful

The Volt

Domino Effect on the empire. We f*cking rule

stepbar

Terrontress wrote: »

I don't mean to ask the obvious but what is happening on the streets of Birmingham?

The accent is awful but I am not aware of anything brewing on the streets.

Turn on Sky News and you'll see about the Anti Muslim marches perpetrated by English scum.

Bock the Robber

Luckily, we have no scum in Ireland.

stepbar

Bock the Robber wrote: »

Luckily, we have no scum in Ireland.

Lucky aren't we :rolleyes:

Rosita

Bond-007 wrote: »

I will say no.

What have we to show for it? A bunch of self serving policitians with no sense of right or wrong who have run the country into the ground.

This implies that if we had remained part of the UK our politicians would be different. If you had been reading about the expenses scandals in recent months in the UK political establishment you would have been aware that it is in fact no different in the UK.

So if your sole criterion for judging the success or otherwise of Independence is the morals of politicians then it must be a very qualified 'no' as the alternative would probably be worse as we'd have been following the US into wars as well as having corrupt politicians.

Bock the Robber

Nobody said it was the sole criterion. Where did you get that from?

asdasd

Turn on Sky News and you'll see about the Anti Muslim marches perpetrated by English scum.

Anti-Islamic. No more right-wing than anti-Christian secularism, generally considered leftwing.

asdasd

Nobody said it was the sole criterion. Where did you get that from?

from the guy s\he was replying to who gave it as his sole criteria.

Bock the Robber

I didn't see anyone saying it was the sole criterion though I'm open to correction if you can point out where that was said.

However, it's irrelevant and a sidetrack, as it certainly wasn't the premise of the original question, which was this: is Ireland a better place following independence?

asdasd

It clealy is not irrelevent and is open to refutation if someone comments like this

All we have achieved is a banana republic dominated by an elite of self-serving politicians and an economic elite. Nothing to write home about in other words.

Note the All, bit. I boldified it.

Yes, ireland is a better place. London ( and Dublin) are over-centralised. I cant imagine were the only Irish representation in London, across both Parties, that we would have much input into anything. Would things be worse? Would london have an IDA? Would Ireland ( not the UK) get a dispropotrionate amount of the world's capital investments.

Of course not.....

Bock the Robber

Would we have needed a Ryan report?

asdasd

Would we have needed a Ryan report?

Presumably, unless the Catholic church was banned by the British.

The existance of the Ryan report either tells us that

1) Ireland has had more Child abuse than other countries, or
2) Other countries dont do Ryan reports.

it is probably not that popular an opinion on here but I tend to believe 2).

( Jsersey, Islington, Kincora, and all post English schools. Lots of buggery. No reports).

Bock the Robber

Or unless the British didn't put reformatories, education and health in the hands of the Catholic church?

Oh, wait!

asdasd

You clearly didnt read my answer. They are buggering their children senseless in Eton. Catholicism has little to do with it. We investigate. They dont. google the bits in parenthesis and add Child Abuse.

Bock the Robber

Sorry. I didn't realise Eton was paid for by the government.

asdasd

Sorry. I didn't realise Eton was paid for by the government.

We are clearly into the stupid part of the night, huh. I can only assume you've been drinking.

It doenst matter if Eton is government owned , run, or not. My point is that child abuse in England or the UK is probably as bad - per capita - as Ireland but they dont investigate. In fact the Jersey thing has dropped off the political radar.

I mean they only found skulls there.

ballsymchugh

Terrontress wrote: »

I'd say in order for the British to have willingly signed Ireland over, they must have agreed that there would be no forcible removal of property. Same thing that if Ireland were to become 32 county, anyone who leaves Northern Ireland to go to the UK will still own their house and property unless they sell them.

there's a difference between rent and ground rent though, like, weren't these places kinda stolen in the first place?? i mean, paying a british lord ground rent for a building like the GPO is different from paying a local sham for a room in a house in belfast..
and no, there probably wouldn't have been a ryan report, it would've had a name like the walpole report. or *** report.


*** = insert stereotypical british lord's name here..

Bock the Robber

It's a bit early in the discussion to descend to ad hominem accusations of drunkenness, wouldn't you say?

Government involvement has everything to do with the issue, unless you were answering a different question.

asdasd

Government involvement has everything to do with the issue, unless you were answering a different question.

You're question was would we have had a Ryan report.

You then went onto say that

Or unless the British didn't put reformatories, education and health in the hands of the Catholic church?

Now this is really simple. My points were simple. I think that child abuse is not limited to the Catholic church, or in fact to religions ( check out Jersey, Islington). So it wouldnt have mattered.

But we wouldnt have had a report becasue the English dont do tribunals.

ballsymchugh

ok so it seems like people are equating irish nationhood with catholic abuse...
what about hurling, the finest game in the world, which flourished after being suppressed, or the irish language, and i don't care how much you hated it in school (imo it's taught the wrong way) but it's still a beautiful language (the weather girl on tg4 being case and point).

asdasd

weren't these places kinda stolen in the first place??

Possilby. Lots of stuff was. The Catholic church has claim to a lot of English churches now owned by the Church of England. What makes property legal is law, and we continued with common law - we didnt have a marxist revolution.

Bock the Robber

No.

My question was whether Ireland is a better place following independence.

Stay with the programme.

asdasd

ok so it seems like people are equating irish nationhood with catholic abuse...

Quite.

I think Bock the Robber comes from the Empire ioving part of Limerick. I've met that type.

Note the way he went quickly onto the Ryan Report ( the Ace in the Hole of post-colonial sleveenism) when I pointed out that we would never have had the kind of foreign direct investment with a UK parliament.

Bock the Robber

asdasd wrote: »

Quite.

I think Bock the Robber comes from the Empire ioving part of Limerick. I've met that type.

Note the way he went quickly onto the Ryan Report ( the Ace in the Hole of post-colonial sleveenism) when I pointed out that we would never have had the kind of foreign direct investment with a UK parliament.

It isn't about individuals. Are you able to address the question or are you only able to play the man?

asdasd

My question was whether Ireland is a better place following independence.

That was your first qeuestion. When I answered it with the FDI answer, you - the thread owner - moved onto the Ryan Report.

So, child abuse is first mentioned by you, and now offtopic. We must stay with the programme, which is to not answer your suplementary questions unless that proves you wrong.

asdasd

It isn't about individuals. Are you able to address the question or are you only able to play the man?

I did answer it!!!!!!!

Your response to that was to poison the well with the Ryan Report. That having not worked you want, now, to get back on topic ignoring all answers you disagree with.

i can't be clearer. Ireland's present day wealth depended on an Irish government, or instutions set up by it - the IDA - attracting foreign capital which is something the UK government would have spent little, or no time on.

Bock the Robber

The Ryan report is an example. If you prefer, we can talk about NAMA, or we can talk about Bertie's 1.27 billion bailout for the Catholic church.

Alternatively, we can discuss why Ireland gets not a penny for its 14 billion euros worth of gas from Shell.

We could discuss why our hospitals are in excrement, why we have no transport infrastructure or why our schools are in prefabs.

If you prefer, we could talk about the reasons why our communications infrastructure was sold off to asset strippers with the result that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

I don't mind.

ballsymchugh

Bock the Robber wrote: »

The Ryan report is an example. If you prefer, we can talk about NAMA, or we can talk about Bertie's 1.27 billion bailout for the Catholic church.

Alternatively, we can discuss why Ireland gets not a penny for its 14 billion euros worth of gas from Shell.

We could discuss why our hospitals are in excrement, why we have no transport infrastructure or why our schools are in prefabs.

If you prefer, we could talk about the reasons why our communications infrastructure was sold off to asset strippers with the result that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

I don't mind.

have to agree with the shell issue, i still don't get why it isn't being brought in by the state.
but if you ask an older person about hospitals and the state they're in, they'll usually say that they were never in that condition when they were run by the nuns. and i'd agree.

asdasd

Since we are comparing to the UK where I live.

. If you prefer, we can talk about NAMA, or we can talk about Bertie's 1.27 billion bailout for the Catholic church.

NAMA is a necessity, the US is spending trillions on its banks. The UK is quantitve easing.

Alternatively, we can discuss why Ireland gets not a penny for its 14 billion euros worth of gas from Shell.

Probably because they cant get it ashore due to luddites blocking the way. I realy dont have the time for pseud talk about oil, or gas, exploration. Fields with limited potential at the start will have to be given at preferential rates. So too with the original North Sea.

We could discuss why our hospitals are in excrement, why we have no transport infrastructure or why our schools are in prefabs.

The NHS is worse ( largely the NHS Is fetisihed by people who havent used it), we have nearly finished a motorway system as good as anywhere, schools are not "in prefabs" in genreal ( although none should be). The Cork-Dublin train is better than anything in England.

If you prefer, we could talk about the reasons why our communications infrastructure was sold off to asset strippers with the result that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

Um, riiiight. AS opposed to the publically owned versions in the UK which is what you are comparing us too. Or wold Lady Thatcher have had a different, less free market ideology with Ireland.

In this thought experiment you have to pretend we were still part of the UK, not Utopia.

Bock the Robber

Let's deal with facts instead of shouting.

How much are we getting for our gas?

asdasd

By the way when ever the post-colonial sleeveens come creeping out of the wood complaining about the Ireland is the Worst at Something there is little recourse to sources.

So

that we have the worst broadband in Europe.

Do you mean speed, or penetration. For either, source? I expect to see Ireland at the bottom of the list, not above the European average, which is what 2 seconds of googling showed me.