Phoenix Park Road Surface

celticbest

Has anybody else noticed the disgraceful state of some of the roads in the Phoenix Parks. Chesterfield Avenue is a disaster from the roundabout at the Aras going towards town, all you can see ahead is cars weaving to avoid the dreadful surface.

To think how many foreign dignitaries go in and out of the Aras and have to use this road says something about how this country wishes to portray its image.

Also recently the road which leads from Chesterfield Avenue to the Islandbridge gate has gone very potholey and when you exist at the Islandbridge gate you have to avoid what can only be described as a creator!

Who do you have to contact to make a complaint about the surface of the roads in the park?

manster

I ride a scooter through the Park to work and I concur. The roundabouts are so dangerous especially the ones outside the Aras and the Garda HQ. I came off my bike at the former last winter.

chewed

Also, why is the signposting in and around the Phoenix Park atrocious? Once you're in the park, there is no signs to tell you how to exit or where you're going! Also, there is no proper signage for the Zoo, one of Dublin's biggest attractions. God bless the tourists!

MICKEYG

Just wondering, did they ever install the pedestrian crossing at the zoo. Last time I was there there wasn't one. Was very dangerous especially considering all the kids around.

trad

The Phoenix Park is controlled and maintain by the Office of Public Works http://www.opw.ie/en/.

The Phoenix Park is a public amenity, not a public thoroughfare, and while I suspect the OPW is strapped for cash at the moment, a perfect road surface would only encourage more motorist to use it.

Jip

Jaysus, I wonder how some people can survive on their own. It's pretty easy to get out of the park once you're in there, and the zoo couldn't be easier to find.

donvito99

celticbest wrote: »

creator!

Of what?

celticbest

donvito99 wrote: »

Of what?

Ha!Ha!:D, Sorry I will use spell check in future, it should have been crater

celticbest

trad wrote: »

The Phoenix Park is controlled and maintain by the Office of Public Works http://www.opw.ie/en/.

Thanks for that info.

I will send a quick email to the OPW to see if they have any spare cash available to upgrade the surface on Chesterfield Avenue even is it's only on the worst stretch just after the Aras heading towards town.

bazzer

I would say if a motorist or pedestrian were to suffer a mishap on the dodgy surfaces within the Park and decided to sue the OPW, they mightn't be long doing something about it then.

celticbest

Just send a quick note(below) to the OPW at the following email - info@opw.ie, just wondering if they will respond.

******************************************

Hi,

Just wondering if you can confirm if there are any plans to fix up the road surface on Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park.

The surface is actually quite dangerous especially once you pass the roundabout at the Aras heading towards the Main Gate, this really bad stretch lasts for about 200 metres. Most cars weave along this stretch & my worry is that once the icy mornings return this will lead to an accident.

I look forward to your response on this matter.

daymobrew

celticbest wrote: »

Just wondering if you can confirm if there are any plans to fix up the road surface on Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park.

It's not that long since Chesterfield Avenue was resurfaced on the Castleknock side of the Phoenix Monument/Aras roundabout and it is already showing signs of wear. I am not sure whether this is as a result of the high volumes using the road or if the resurfacing was badly done.

IIRC the section on the city side of the roundabout was also done in the last few years.

celticbest

Did anyone see the signs today stating that the Castlekock gate will be closed between the 28 - 30 September and to expect delays.

Does anyone know if this has anything to do with the road being worked on or is it something completely different

celticbest

Signs say this morning that Castleknock gate will be closed from 28 September to November. How is this going to affect traffic in the Park??

MIP

trad wrote: »

The Phoenix Park is controlled and maintain by the Office of Public Works http://www.opw.ie/en/.

The Phoenix Park is a public amenity, not a public thoroughfare, and while I suspect the OPW is strapped for cash at the moment, a perfect road surface would only encourage more motorist to use it.

What's the difference? A road is a public amenity.

I pay my (very high) taxes for both public amenities and roads and as far as I'm concerned the Park is both. I regularly hear the arguement that the OPW are consenting to allow the commuting public to use the Park for driving through but it's not theirs.

It belongs to (amongst others) me and the approximately 100,000 people living in the Dublin 15 and surrounding areas who wish to access the city centre on a regular basis. As one of only three routes available (Navan Road/Blackhorse Avenue and Chapelizod which are both already full to capcity being the others) the OPW/Government/Fingal Council/Dublin City Council or whoever wants to be responsible for this space should manage it properly or put a viable alternative in place

monument

MIP wrote: »

What's the difference? A road is a public amenity.

The difference is that the park is a place for the people of the city to relax and enjoy them self.

MIP wrote: »

It belongs to (amongst others) me and the approximately 100,000 people living in the Dublin 15 and surrounding areas who wish to access the city centre on a regular basis.

I would say of the amount of people who use the park, those from D15 would be an minority. A large minority, but still a minority.

MIP wrote: »

As one of only three routes available (Navan Road/Blackhorse Avenue and Chapelizod which are both already full to capcity being the others) the OPW/Government/Fingal Council/Dublin City Council or whoever wants to be responsible for this space should manage it properly or put a viable alternative in place

With the whole city already near full to capacity of cars, and the downturn is only giving a little breathing room, what exactly do you suggest?

Have you tried the train, bus, or cycling?

MIP

monument wrote: »

The difference is that the park is a place for the people of the city to relax and enjoy them self.




I would say of the amount of people who use the park, those from D15 would be an minority. A large minority, but still a minority.




With the whole city already near full to capacity of cars, and the downturn is only giving a little breathing room, what exactly do you suggest?

Have you tried the train, bus, or cycling?

1. The park is indeed somewhere for the people of the city to relax and enjoy themselves (amongst other things which was my original point) and properly managing and maintaining the roads it contains only helps in this because people can then move quicker and easier through and around it. As I've said in my original post if the authorities don't want people driving through it they need to provide viable alternative routes around it.
2. You have no idea how the usage figures break down by area and neither do I so your point is pure speculation but geography dictates that all of the massive traffic volumes (both commuter and leisure) through the park not approaching from the city centre comes from either Dublin 15, 7 or Dublin 20 (I said originally D15 and surrounding areas) and these people should be catered for properly.
3. As to what I would do I would ask the authorities to either provide reliable and efficient public transport to incentivise people off the roads (rather than the stick and stick approach currently in operation) or else provide the motoring public with the well maintained and organised road network which they pay for via their taxes (apart from direct taxes motorists pay huge amounts of indirect tax via VRT, VAT on petrol and the cars themselves, Motor Tax and road tolls) but have yet to receive.
4. I have tried both bus and train but Dublin's public transport system is completely unreliable. Buses from D15 to city centre take up to 90 mins (sometimes more) to complete a 10km journey and the trains are only of use if you live and work within walking distance of the stations at either end of your journey. Even then they are packed at all times and tie you to travelling around peak times or waiting an hour between trains. Cycling is not an option for people who work in offices without showers and have to be well presented.

Jip

I'm living in Dublin 15 and I do not buy into the idea that the park should be bettered, for want of a better word, for any commuters using cars. I hate to see the park congested with through traffic at anytime of the day and don't want to see anything that would increase traffic in it.

The park is a public amenity to be enjoyed by both the public and wildlife without having to worry about vehicular traffic who only see it as a rat run in and out of the city centre.

monument

MIP wrote: »

The park is indeed amongst other things somewhere for the people of the city to relax and enjoy themselves and properly managing and maintaining the roads it contains only helps in this because people can then move quicker and easier through and around it.

Moving people around quickly is outside the remit of a park. Indeed it goes against what a park is about.

MIP wrote: »

As I've said in my original post if the authorities don't want people driving through it they need to provide viable alternative routes around it.

And as I have asked, and you have yet to answer:

With the whole city already near full to capacity of cars, and the downturn is only giving a little breathing room, what exactly do you suggest?

MIP wrote: »

You have no idea how the usage figures break down by area and neither do I so your point is pure speculation but geography dictates that all of the massive traffic volumes (both commuter and leisure) through the park not approaching from the city centre comes from either Dublin 15, 7 or Dublin 20 (I said originally D15 and surrounding areas) and these people should be catered for properly.

Just to be clear I'm talking about using the park for it's main uses as a park. Are you really trying to say people from D15 account of a larger percentage of users than all others combined?

MIP wrote: »

Buses from D15 to city centre take up to 90 mins (sometimes more) to complete a 10km journey

And what's the max for a car on the same route at rush hour?

MIP wrote: »

and the trains are only of use if you live and work within walking distance of the stations at either end of your journey. Even then they are packed at all times and tie you to travelling around peak times or waiting an hour between trains.

If you are not tied to peak times, then using another road rather than the park should be of no problem to you.

MIP wrote: »

Cycling is not an option for people who work in offices without showers and have to be well presented.

That's nonsense, I know of loads of people who cycle and work in offices.

MIP

monument wrote: »

Moving people around quickly is outside the remit of a park. Indeed it goes against what a park is about.




And as I have asked, and you have yet to answer:

With the whole city already near full to capacity of cars, and the downturn is only giving a little breathing room, what exactly do you suggest?




Just to be clear I'm talking about using the park for it's main uses as a park. Are you really trying to say people from D15 account of a larger percentage of users than all others combined?




And what's the max for a car on the same route at rush hour?




If you are not tied to peak times, then using another road rather than the park should be of no problem to you.



That's nonsense, I know of loads of people who cycle and work in offices.

Selectively quoting my previous post and ignoring the fact that I have put forward a different definition of what the Phoenix Park is to yours based on the current situation there (both a leisure amenity and travel route) isn't a proper discussion. I've clearly expressed my views on the topic and already answered each of the points raised above but if you choose to misunderstand or ignore those answers that's up to you.

While you and some other posters wish to maintain the park as an urban utopia that's fine and I would love to see it too but as someone who has to deal with the daily reality of living and working in the area I would like to see a more practical approach taken and as one of the many commuters forced to use the park as a travel route I belive it should be maintained properly for me and my fellow drivers as well as for those who use it as a leisure facility.

monument

I've only asked questions or made statements about your answers, but you maintain this is "selectively quoting".

Could you point out where exactly I have twisted or misrepresented what you have said? Otherwise, what exactly do you mean by "selectively quoting"?

Jip

MIP wrote: »

While you and some other posters wish to maintain the park as an urban utopia that's fine and I would love to see it too but as someone who has to deal with the daily reality of living and working in the area I would like to see a more practical approach taken and as one of the many commuters forced to use the park as a travel route I belive it should be maintained properly for me and my fellow drivers as well as for those who use it as a leisure facility.

Alot of us have to deal with the daily reality of living and working in the area and I would still never want to see the park touched or amended no matter how practical it is to increase its use for through traffic. Nobody is forced to use the park, they choose to.

And as you say, if you live and work in the area you therefore live very close to your workplace, why not cycle ? Or was that just something randomly thrown in to bolster your argument ?

MIP

monument wrote: »

I've only asked questions or made statements about your answers, but you maintain this is "selectively quoting".

Could you point out where exactly I have twisted or misrepresented what you have said? Otherwise, what exactly do you mean by "selectively quoting"?

In your original post you asked what I would do. I replied as below yet you chose to ignore this.

" As to what I would do I would ask the authorities to either provide reliable and efficient public transport to incentivise people off the roads (rather than the stick and stick approach currently in operation) or else provide the motoring public with the well maintained and organised road network which they pay for via their taxes (apart from direct taxes motorists pay huge amounts of indirect tax via VRT, VAT on petrol and the cars themselves, Motor Tax and road tolls) but have yet to receive."

I also addressed the issue of cycling to work by saying:

"Cycling is not an option for people who work in offices without showers and have to be well presented." You dismissed this on the basis of knowing lots of people who work in offices and cycle. So do I but this doesn't mean my point is untrue, the people I know have showers in their offices and can wash and change into suits etc. on arrival. This is not an option for me and many others who don't have such facilities. As well as this I and many others also have to travel to to meetings during the day for example.

Finally, you dismiss the indisputable fact that included in the Phoenix Park's remit is moving people around (be they commuters or park visitors visting the many park facilities such as the Zoo, Farmleigh, Popes Cross, Aras an Uactarain etc.) in favour of your own limited definition of what "a Park" should be. I'm dealing in what the Phoenix Park actually is. This also ties in with how you define it's users and where they're from. This is everyone who uses it for any of it's many purposes yet you seem to want to include only those who use it for what you consider appropriate.

To answer the other points you raise:

• "What's the max for a car on the same route at rush hour?". Approximately 45 mins or half as long as the bus.
• "If you are not tied to peak times, then using another road rather than the park should be of no problem to you." My job requires me to be flexible in working hours, this means I regularly but not always travel at peak times (which in Dublin currently account for at least 6 hours of every day).

MIP

Jip wrote: »

Alot of us have to deal with the daily reality of living and working in the area and I would still never want to see the park touched or amended no matter how practical it is to increase its use for through traffic. Nobody is forced to use the park, they choose to.

And as you say, if you live and work in the area you therefore live very close to your workplace, why not cycle ? Or was that just something randomly thrown in to bolster your argument ?

Wake up and smell the reality of the situation. Nobody chooses to sit in traffic every day for the fun of it. They take the best available route and my only point is that as this is the Park that should be properly maintained.

My daily commute is roughly 10km of which the park takes up 4-5km so I think it's fair to say I live and work in the area of the Phoenix Park.

I've already addressed the cycling issue in previous posts.

monument

MIP wrote: »

In your original post you asked what I would do. I replied as below yet you chose to ignore this.

" As to what I would do I would ask the authorities to either provide reliable and efficient public transport to incentivise people off the roads (rather than the stick and stick approach currently in operation)

Or maybe chicken or the ege is a better one for a public transport debate?...

Buses are slowed down by too many motorists, but motorists say they won't switch because buses are too slow (the buses they slow down).

MIP wrote: »

or else provide the motoring public with the well maintained and organised road network which they pay for via their taxes (apart from direct taxes motorists pay huge amounts of indirect tax via VRT, VAT on petrol and the cars themselves, Motor Tax and road tolls) but have yet to receive."

I did not want to get into a different topic, but tax on motorists has not come close to paying for the investment in roads in recent year. Generally road maintenance and building is a drain on the central finance, even with all the taxes on motorists. Anyway... VRT takings are now a fraction of that they were last year. Takings from VAT on petrol is down. Like VRT, takings on VAT from car sales is wiped-out compared to even last year. Motor tax makes up little compared to what is needed. And toll roads are a tax on the roads the toll is on, there is none in the park.

MIP wrote: »

I also addressed the issue of cycling to work by saying:

"Cycling is not an option for people who work in offices without showers and have to be well presented." You dismissed this on the basis of knowing lots of people who work in offices and cycle. So do I but this doesn't mean my point is untrue, the people I know have showers in their offices and can wash and change into suits etc. on arrival. This is not an option for me and many others who don't have such facilities.

Sorry, I should have been more detailed in my reply.

I know people who manage without such facilities. Cycling is quite possible without needing such facilities, unless you're cycling as if you're in a race.

MIP wrote: »

As well as this I and many others also have to travel to to meetings during the day for example.

That may be the case for you, but I would not think it's the case for the majority of motorists using the park or other routes.

MIP wrote: »

Finally, you dismiss the indisputable fact that included in the Phoenix Park's remit is moving people around (be they commuters or park visitors visting the many park facilities such as the Zoo, Farmleigh, Popes Cross, Aras an Uactarain etc.) in favour of your own limited definition of what "a Park" should be. I'm dealing in what the Phoenix Park actually is. This also ties in with how you define it's users and where they're from. This is everyone who uses it for any of it's many purposes yet you seem to want to include only those who use it for what you consider appropriate.

No, it's not my definition. It's the widely accepted definition of a park.

It's not me that seems to have a problem with the definition of a park.

MIP

monument wrote: »

No, it's not my definition. It's the widely accepted definition of a park.

It's not me that seems to have a problem with the definition of a park.

Like it or not the Phoenix Park does not adhere to your definition. It has roads and they should be properly maintained and managed for the public who use them. This is what this thread was set up to discuss.

If your argument is that the Phoenix Park shouldn't allow cars then it's another discussion altogether but in summary (as you've probably guessed at this stage ) I disagree in the absence of a viable alternative.

monument

MIP wrote: »

Like it or not the Phoenix Park does not adhere to your definition. It has roads and they should be properly maintained and managed for the public who use them. This is what this thread was set up to discuss

Again, it's not my definition.

MIP wrote: »

If your argument is that the Phoenix Park shouldn't allow cars then it's another discussion altogether but in summary (as you've probably guessed at this stage ) I disagree in the absence of a viable alternative.

More restrictions on motorists commuters would be welcomed, I'm sure even car users who have come to actually use the park for it's primary use. Because what those people often find is the roads and parking clogged up with commuters.

Godge

Cut and fill technology dates from the 19th century. Surely such a tunnel (relatively cheap) under Chesterfield Avenue would solve the commuter issue. Those going into town in the mornings wouldn't disturb the joggers.

The surface could be made cycle and pedestrian friendly in a way that hasn't been possible to date. Someone once told me there was a gas/water main issue that made this difficult but does anyone have any information.

Nevyn

There are tunnels under the park already and a trainline so that may not be possible.

celticbest

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are tunnels under the park already and a trainline so that may not be possible.

Even if it was possible to do, do you think the government/Dublin city council would invest the funds required into this, if they did could you imagine the cost of the Toll!!

celticbest

celticbest wrote: »

Just send a quick note(below) to the OPW at the following email - info@opw.ie, just wondering if they will respond.

******************************************

Hi,

Just wondering if you can confirm if there are any plans to fix up the road surface on Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park.

The surface is actually quite dangerous especially once you pass the roundabout at the Aras heading towards the Main Gate, this really bad stretch lasts for about 200 metres. Most cars weave along this stretch & my worry is that once the icy mornings return this will lead to an accident.

I look forward to your response on this matter.

Great news, I received the following reply to above query from the OPW.

Phoenix
>
>
> I refer to your recent query on the road surfaces in the Phoenix Park.
>
> We are currently talking to contractors about this work.
>
> It is hoped to complete the remedial works before the end of next month.
>
> I hope that this addresses your query.
>
> Hugh

Godge

celticbest wrote: »

Even if it was possible to do, do you think the government/Dublin city council would invest the funds required into this, if they did could you imagine the cost of the Toll!!

Not talking about a M1 tunnel, Jack Lynch tunnel or Shannon tunnel, rather a simple cut and fill as in 19th century technology. Circle and District line in the UK etc. Shouldn't cost too much.

NFD100

The sooner Lizzy Windsor makes a trip over the better. The park would have a new surface down in a jiffy.. The place would never look better. Just look at the road leading to Malahide castle for Thatcher's trip to the EU meeting in 1990.:D

Not that it should take that to get a decent surface. The park is in rag order.

celticbest

What way will the traffic be like this evening now that the Castleknock gate has been closed for the next 9 weeks?

MIP

celticbest wrote: »

What way will the traffic be like this evening now that the Castleknock gate has been closed for the next 9 weeks?

There's a whole other thread dedicated to that topic. Not good seems to be the general consensus! :eek::eek:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055684624

celticbest

I know it has been a while since I originally raised the issue with the state of the road surface on Chesterfield Avenue but as of late it just seems to be getting worse by the week even though we have had a good run of weather.

Does anybody know if there is a plan in place to re-surface this road as I can only imagine how bad it will get this winter if nothing is done.

daymobrew

celticbest wrote: »

Does anybody know if there is a plan in place to re-surface this road as I can only imagine how bad it will get this winter if nothing is done.

Joan Burton sent out an email on June 24 about the plans to fix the surface:

Joan Burton wrote:

I raised with Minister Martin Mansergh the appalling state of the main road Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park. I am delighted to say that the Minister has confirmed to me that a major overhaul of the road will be undertaken.

Minister Mansergh's reply, "Last winter's spell of extreme weather has caused further deterioration in the road surface and has opened new potholes in the road.

It has been determined that the appropriate option to pursue to finally address this problem id to repair the entire road surface as it is deemed the most cost effective in the long term. I would like to stress that this is a comprehensive repair programme and NOT in any way a redesign.

The works will include

• A through investigation of all the services along the length of the Main Road
• Provision of a pavement structure with a minimum design life of 20 years
• Repair of the drainage system for the Chesterfield Avenue.
• Provision of definitive drawings for the completed projects showing all services for the full length of the Avenue
• Archaeological reports on any findings during the works.

At the moment the commencement of procurement for the project is imminent and I expect work to commence later in the year, perhaps at the end of summer. These works will inevitably cause some limited disruption or disturbance to the public (inform of possible stop-go systems, or temporary road closures,) which we will endeavour to keep to a minimum. I must stress however that the Phoenix Park cannot be looked on as primarily a commuter resource but as a National Historic Park of international significance".

celticbest

That's great news daymobrew, looks like they might actually do a proper job on this road at last...

ThisRegard

They might do well to hit the various tour buses for payment towards the upkeep of the road, if they don't already. If you take a look everywhere they stop, particularly outside the Aras, you'll see the surface there is extremely bad, it sinks due to the weight of the buses.

I've also noticed since the new court has opened a lot of garda vehicles are parking in stupid places all over the Parkgate entrance, such as on the footpath outside the bike hire place. The OPW haven't been afraid of stickering them though, fair play to them.

jack presley

The tour buses argument would likely to be that they pay their road tax already giving them the right to use the roads so why should they have to pay twice. I'd agree with them.

celticbest

Could they not add a few coach stops near the Aras ?

ThisRegard

jack presley wrote: »

The tour buses argument would likely to be that they pay their road tax already giving them the right to use the roads so why should they have to pay twice. I'd agree with them.

This is not an argument about road tax, which doesn't all go towards roads by the way, it's about how they're responsible for destroying the road where they park at tourist spots in the pursuit of making money from the OPWs property. Aren't the roads in the park essentially private roads anyway, so even if all road tax went towards the roads none would go to the parks ? I could be well mistaken in that though.

Specific parking/stopping areas would be a good solution.

monument

ThisRegard wrote: »

This is not an argument about road tax, which doesn't all go towards roads by the way, it's about how they're responsible for destroying the road where they park at tourist spots in the pursuit of making money from the OPWs property. Aren't the roads in the park essentially private roads anyway, so even if all road tax went towards the roads none would go to the parks ? I could be well mistaken in that though.

Specific parking/stopping areas would be a good solution.

Indeed, specific parking/stopping areas would be a good solution.

On a general point, those tour buses are using the park as part of it's main use (recreation), while most of the motorists who drive through the park are not (ie commuters). While commuter motorists pay motor tax (there's no such thing as road tax and it does not cover the full cost of roads), they too indirectly profit from using the park, given the time and speed savings the park gives them rather than going around the park.

On a septate note, in the new fines bill the fine for disobeying a park ranger and many other historic fines which are now low will rise substantially.

celticbest

monument wrote: »

On a septate note, in the new fines bill the fine for disobeying a park ranger and many other historic fines which are now low will rise substantially.

I wonder if this will stop goods vehicles not specifically delivering in the park.

There are signs on all entrance gates banning goods vehicles but still the park is always full of them.

Maybe if the Rangers can impose greater fines......

celticbest

ThisRegard wrote: »

Specific parking/stopping areas would be a good solution.

+1

JHMEG

trad wrote: »

a perfect road surface would only encourage more motorist to use it.

Wow, last time I heard that kind of argument it was from Meath Co Co arguing motorways discourage public transport and therefore motorways should be discouraged.

If you don't want people to use roads why build them in the first place.

Cookie_Monster

trad wrote: »

a perfect road surface would only encourage more motorist to use it.

not if they put ramps in every 50 metres

JHMEG wrote:

If you don't want people to use roads why build them in the first place.

Its not meant to be a commuter route, only for park access though.

celticbest

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Its not meant to be a commuter route, only for park access though.

..

Where's the alternative routes that are in place if you do not use the park?

If it not to be used as a commuter route than why don't they put a tunnel in place under Chesterfield avenue to accommodate the daily commuter traffic that goes through the park?

monument

celticbest wrote: »

Where's the alternative routes that are in place if you do not use the park

The Navan Road (N3) to the north of the park, and the Chapeilzod Road (R109) to the south.

Cookie_Monster

celticbest wrote: »

..
Where's the alternative routes that are in place if you do not use the park?

get the bus :pac::pac::pac:

celticbest

monument wrote: »

The Navan Road (N3) to the north of the park, and the Chapeilzod Road (R109) to the south.

Oh Yeah, I'll just sit in traffic and waste at least an extra 1/2 an hour of my life by using either of those routes. These not an alternative IMO as they add a massive amount of time onto your journey.

In the morning rush hour I can come off the M50 @ Blanchardstown onto the N3 as far as the Ashtown roundabout and go through the Ashtown gate turn right onto the Back Road & then left onto Chesterfield avenue down as far as the Wellington monument r'about were I go right to the Island bridge gate at which I take another right on the Chapelizod Road to Chapelizod. Usual journey time no more than 10 mins.

As an alternative I can continue on the N3 into gridlock, then onto the Cabra road then onto the NCR to Infirmary Road then onto Conyngham Road to Chapelizod Road all while constantly sitting in traffic. Usual Journey time 40 mins.

When I do the maths the answer will always be use the Park. If they did not want traffic in the park they should never had built any roads in it or they should have built better 'alternatives' for commuters.