AA for atheists or agnostics

Koushki

I am asking on behalf of someone who i care a great deal about if there are any organizations for people with alcohol problems in Ireland,Dublin who don't believe in God who can't follow the twelve steps of recovery because there is so much emphasis on God.

This whole accepting God thing just wont work for this person and I'm an agnostic myself so I can understand why they wouldn't want to do this for ''God'', This person needs to do it for themselves.

If anyone can tell me if there are any, and where or if anyone has had any experience with this please tell me.

Thank you.

prinz

AA doesn't depend on a belief in God. It is just as accessible to Atheists and Agnostics. The steps do include reference to a Higher Power, however in practical terms your 'Higher Power' can be a family member, a friend, even a goal you are aiming towards, (i.e. a holiday with the money saved for example).

As an aside, surely treating the alcoholism is far higher on their list of priorities than "accepting God" to begin with.

Kipperhell

prinz wrote: »

AA doesn't depend on a belief in God. It is just as accessible to Atheists and Agnostics. The steps do include reference to a Higher Power, however in practical terms your 'Higher Power' can be a family member, a friend, even a goal you are aiming towards, (i.e. a holiday with the money saved for example).

As an aside, surely treating the alcoholism is far higher on their list of priorities than "accepting God" to begin with.

While I don't know that much about alcohol addiction I can assure you that an atheist may not be in anyway accepting of the concept of a "higher power". There is certainly a possibility that such a person will not be very comfortable with the AA's general approach.

While it may work for some people there needs to be a certain mind set to subscribe to the AA's belief system. I can't remember all the details but I did look up some of this material before after watching a Penn and Teller's Bullsh*t show about 12 step programs/ addiction. While they may not be a great source of objective reporting it raises some serious questions. There is some organisations shown that do not use the AA model that claimed a better success rate.

If the person is truly an Atheist they might certainly find it hard to follow the AA the same way if you told a Christian they have to give up God to get help. There is certainly the view that AA is religion through a back door that some people find objectionable. So while the AA see no barriers the person may see there actually is.

prinz

Kipperhell wrote: »

I can assure you that an atheist may not be in anyway accepting of the concept of a "higher power"..

An atheist cannot accept the concept of a friend or family member?

Kipperhell wrote: »

If the person is truly an Atheist they might certainly find it hard to follow the AA the same way if you told a Christian they have to give up God to get help...

Except that doesn't hold up, because you can go through the AA programme without ever "finding God".......

MissFlitworth

prinz wrote: »

An atheist cannot accept the concept of a friend or family member?
.

Step 6 is : We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character, hard to tie that in with a friend or family member in place of 'God' and very hard to swallow as an atheist.

Sorry OP, I'm not aware of an atheist equivalent for AA. I would say though, that even if your friend is uncomfortable with some of the 12 steps AA would still be a good place to start off and get help

Kipperhell

prinz wrote: »

An atheist cannot accept the concept of a friend or family member?

Some people do not find it possible to accept the translation of a "higher power" or God being transferred to a friend or family.

prinz wrote: »

Except that doesn't hold up, because you can go through the AA programme without ever "finding God".......

In your view but as it will be the person seeking help view that is important. There were people in the show who had difficulty with the notion. They also found great difficulty with the self deprecation involved in the AA model as many do.

Look up you tube for a 50 second clip of the show using Penn and Teller and AA in the search. I gather posting you tube footage is not approved here. It does at least make a valid argument that certain beliefs would have difficulty with.

milod

On a philosophical basis, as an atheist, you can consider accepting that the 'higher power' is you. In fact, if anything this is a 13th step which allows a mature person to take entire responsibility for their addiction and also for their recovery.

My partner is involved in drug addiction rehabilitation and one of her biggest issues is dealing with non believing addicts that have difficulty subscribing to NA's similar approach.

Entrusting your recovery to a 'higher power' is seen as quite a shaky foundation for rehabilitation in some professional circles...

studiorat

I also agree with not entrusting recovery to a deity.

Regarding Step 6: GOD = Good Orderly Direction.

A higher power need not be supernatural. The will to live is a higher power than any supernatural deity.

prinz

MissFlitworth wrote: »

Step 6 is : We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character, hard to tie that in with a friend or family member in place of 'God' and very hard to swallow as an atheist.

The 12 Step AA programme was initially begun as a Christian enterprise. IIRC the actual wording since then has not changed very much. However in practice the members themselves are encouraged to interpret and shape the steps around their own belief structures. People have used friends etc like I said. Now obviously for someone with a strong belief in God, God is as good a place to start as any. For someone else they are encouraged to use substitutes, so your Higher Power as it is called, can be a friend or relative, it can even be an idea, such as a science theory.

There were a few threads on this very issue on here a while back, and a number of atheists and agnostics posted their success stories of using AA, and gave details of how they tailored the programme in a way that they could engage in.

VaioCruiser

In threads such as this it would be helpful if people had a grasp of what Atheism and agnosticism are and not use them interchangeably and confusingly.

Atheist: Believes there is NO God.

Agnostic: A person who accepts there may or may not be a God, and has no belief either way.

Two very very different philosophies.

All the best

prinz

VaioCruiser wrote: »

In threads such as this it would be helpful if people had a grasp of what Atheism and agnosticism are and not use them interchangeably and confusingly.

Who did that?

username123

I am an Atheist and have long been involved with a 12 step program, not AA, Alanon, but the steps are based on the AA steps and the entire model is based on AA.

I must admit I was a bit put off at the first meeting when I read the steps and saw the higher power mentioned and heard people use the term god. However it was made clear to me that this was not a religious program, but a spiritual program and that the higher power was to be interpreted as the higher power of my own understanding. I thought about that and came to the concusion that the group consciousness was a higher power than just my own consciousness, evolution is a higher power than me as an individual, and in fact, my own desire to heal and 'work the program' was stronger and a higher power than my desire to stay stuck in the unhealthy rut I was in.

So I have never subscribed to the 'god' theory, yet have managed to take a huge amount of healing and recovery from the program.

Its up to an individual how they want to interpret the higher power, but I would honestly feel an alcoholic has bigger problems on their hands than worrying about how to interpret a higher power and would argue it may be an excuse not to address the real problem - you are not asked to take part in any kind of religious ceremonies or to believe in any kind of god -you are simply asked to accept that there exists a power greater than yourself in the universe. Only someone with serious superiority issues would feel they themselves were the highest powers in the universe.

One last note - you are also encouraged to 'take what you like and leave the rest behind'. Anyone who has problems with the higher power notion can simply get on with the other valuable aspects of the program like sharing, support, group therapy and an examination of ones self.

LegacyUser

Whats the process for going to a meeting? Do you just turn up and sit down?

iguana

I don't think there is any point whatsoever in trying to convince someone who asks for addiction help outside of 12 step systems that they should stop looking for alternatives and just accept something they have problems with on a very basic level. 6 out of the 12 steps are based on God/Higher Power, that's a lot for an atheist to have to ignore. And the AA has a less than 5% recovery rate according to their own numbers. It's not the only way to help addicts and it is not even close to being the most effective. It's the most dominant, that is all.

OP, he could try looking up Smart Recovery and Rational Recovery as non 12 step alternatives. They are both non 12 step programmes. Another alternative is to seek out a private counselor who deals with addictions.

martoman

Maybe your friend could get information from this organisation.

http://www.humanism.ie/website/

LegacyUser

If you want to go to a meeting, all you have to do is walk in and sit down. You don't have to talk to anyone or explain why you are there. Usually, but not always, tea and coffee is on offer. The meeting, in Ireland, usually start with reading 'How it works' from the Big book, and then the secretary of the meeting hands it over to the chair. The chair usually speaks for about 15 minutes (though some can go on longer) about their drinking and then their recovery. Afterwards, they might call on a few folks to speak, and then the meeting is thrown open, to allow anyone to speak. If you're called on to speak and you don't want to, that's seen as perfectly okay; no one has the right to make you uncomfortable.

The meeting usually ends in an hour, with a small collection to cover tea and coffee, and then folks usually stand and say at least the Serenity Prayer, though you'll get the Lord's Prayer said as well. You don't have to do any of this; give any money or say a word of prayer. Then people usually hang around for about 15 or 20 minutes to chat, help clean up, or what have you. Some go on for coffee afterwards so don't worry if you're invited, it is viewed as part of the fellowship aspect of AA. I've found that on days I didn't want to chat, folks were just as happy to have me along another time, there seems to be very little in the way of ego in that regard, no one goes off in a huff.

The big thing is that the only requirement for membership of AA is a desire to stop drinking, so you can go in there and say you think they are all full of ****e and you're not an alcoholic, and that is fine. Just keep coming back if you want to.

Koushki

Thank you very much everyone for your replies.
I'll be sure to past this thread on.

Handsome Bob

Koushki wrote: »

I am asking on behalf of someone who i care a great deal about if there are any organizations for people with alcohol problems in Ireland,Dublin who don't believe in God who can't follow the twelve steps of recovery because there is so much emphasis on God.

This whole accepting God thing just wont work for this person and I'm an agnostic myself so I can understand why they wouldn't want to do this for ''God'', This person needs to do it for themselves.

If anyone can tell me if there are any, and where or if anyone has had any experience with this please tell me.

Thank you.

This may be a tad irresponsible of me but your friend can achieve recovery from his addiction without resorting to some form of rehab centre. All this guy needs is a purpose, a reason to want to give up. Does he honestly want to give it up? If he does then he should have the strength within himself to sort himself out. He needs to be in the right place mentally to do it though.

Koushki

LZ5by5 wrote: »

This may be a tad irresponsible of me but your friend can achieve recovery from his addiction without resorting to some form of rehab centre. All this guy needs is a purpose, a reason to want to give up. Does he honestly want to give it up? If he does then he should have the strength within himself to sort himself out. He needs to be in the right place mentally to do it though.

i never mentioned once that this person was a ''He''

Also, this is all well and true, but it's not me you have to convince. like i said i'm only passing on the message.

Handsome Bob

Koushki wrote: »

i never mentioned once that this person was a ''He''

Apologies for that.

Also, this is all well and true, but it's not me you have to convince. like i said i'm only passing on the message.

To be honest I wouldn't want to convince her because from personal experience, I find that it mostly falls on deaf ears. Only she can come to the realisation herself that she can't go on the way she is.

Dave!

Maybe a PI mod could copy this thread to the NonDrinkers Group?

There's a few alcoholics in there, they may be able to help.

Zaph

Hi Dave. I'd rather not copy the thread as it would be confusing having two threads going in separate forums at the same time. However, as the OP hasn't posted unregged, I'm going to move it to the non-Drinkers Group forum and leave a re-direct in PI. Please feel free to move it back to PI any time you like.

Seloth

I asked about this once myself((Not being an atheist but just out of curiosity about that and other religions)) and I was told that in the meeting where siad person/s go that there is every religion and faith in there,being faithfull or faithless.They siad as has alreayd been siad in this thread that God can represent a "Higher power" of your own belief or it can be you,your friends etc.

I was relaly usprised when I found out there were Hindus,Muslims ,Buddists and so for etc because I thought it would primarly be christian but they said people from a [Dont want to say which but not christian,tis one of the above] retreat or sanctuary((which ever its called,I kidna forget heh)) come in every so often.So yeha you dont need t be christian or a beliver to join.

martin0519

Some people may find the following group to be a good choice if they are struggling with concept of a "higher power" as practiced in 12th step programs.

There is now a face to face meeting in Dublin of a group called LifeRing. It is Tuesday at 6:30 pm in the Dublin Central Mission on Lower Abbey Street.

The philosophy differs from the AA program in that the belief or non-belief in a HP is a private matter not brought up at meetings. There are no steps to follow, no sponsors to listen to and no prayers (that some find offensive) at the end.

LifeRing is about Empowering Your Sober Self.

gavkm27

I'm in 12 step groups for past 7 years and i do not have a concept or any belief in a god,higher power,spirit of the universe of whatever you want to call it,i do not call myself an atheist.

In regards to 12 step groups and the steps,my only belief is that i am not in control,that is not to say that something else is,thats about as far as it goes,i'm lucky to have found people within to help me and i am happy to be able to tell everyone who is reading this,that recovery from alcoholism and addiction is possibly without a belief in God.

gerrytm

A.A is a cult. Your friend would be better off going to an addiction counsellor or similar. people in A.A aren't qualified to give any addiction support. They are addicts, who far from being empowered by AA, are actually slaves to its slogans which they repeat mantra like at most meetings.

Another problem with A.A is that it emphasises one's powerlessness over alcohol. It's not alcohol per se which causes the problems, but an underlying psychological problem. Again, these problems should be discussed with an appropriately qualified specialist.

Dave!

Gerry relax with calling AA a cult please. Discuss its pros and cons by all means, as well as its effectiveness, but don't insult its members please.

donieD

gerrytm wrote: »

A.A is a cult. Your friend would be better off going to an addiction counsellor or similar. people in A.A aren't qualified to give any addiction support. They are addicts, who far from being empowered by AA, are actually slaves to its slogans which they repeat mantra like at most meetings.

Another problem with A.A is that it emphasises one's powerlessness over alcohol. It's not alcohol per se which causes the problems, but an underlying psychological problem. Again, these problems should be discussed with an appropriately qualified specialist.

With respect,your description of AA as a cult is an insult to me and many other people like me whose lives have been changed positively and possibly saved, through the unqualified support as you put it, of people in AA.
Alcohol was and is my biggest problem and I know where it brought me.I have no desire to go back to that and AA helps me on a daily basis in this respect.

zero_nine

gerrytm wrote: »

A.A is a cult. Your friend would be better off going to an addiction counsellor or similar. people in A.A aren't qualified to give any addiction support. They are addicts, who far from being empowered by AA, are actually slaves to its slogans which they repeat mantra like at most meetings.

Another problem with A.A is that it emphasises one's powerlessness over alcohol. It's not alcohol per se which causes the problems, but an underlying psychological problem. Again, these problems should be discussed with an appropriately qualified specialist.

I think the idea that an underlying psycological problem is neccessary for a drink problem is bogus. People drink to get drunk, because drinking feels good. Its no different to any other drug in that respect. IMO if you want to quit, regardless of your problems, you can. And without delving into your personal issues, the majority of which are caused by and sustained by drinking too much and that will in all probability go away once you've stopped drinking.

"Get well first, we can talk about your problems after that if you still want to."

Karen_*

Aa is a cult. Is that a statement of fact or just your opinion?

I'm not insulted by it at all, live and let live. I don't really care if someone thinks its a cult to be honest.

gerrytm

I'm sorry if I offended anyone as it wasn't my intention.

The thread was about the efficacy of AA for agnostics and atheists. My opinion on this is clear: I don't think it's suitable for people of that bent. The notion of a "Higher Power" doesn't exist for atheists. I know AA says that this "Higher Power" can be anything you want but then we are leaving the realms of Gods and into the realms of Golden Calves. To an atheist there is no distinction between the two, that is, both don't exude any "power".

Also, the idea that one is powerless over alcohol is a very dangerous notion as it, in effect, puts alcohol near the same level as the "Higher Power". If we follow AA's logic, the "Higher Power" is at the top, Alcohol second and the Alcoholic at the bottom, helpless and dependent on a "Higher Power" to free him or her from addiction. I'm afraid this wouldn't sit well with atheists.

prinz

gerrytm wrote: »

I know AA says that this "Higher Power" can be anything you want but then we are leaving the realms of Gods and into the realms of Golden Calves. To an atheist there is no distinction between the two, that is, both don't exist.

Does your family exist? Or your friend, your OH? etc etc.

gerrytm

prinz wrote: »

Does your family exist? Or your friend, your OH? etc etc.

Yes, but I'd have difficulty thinking of them as a "Higher Power." They are mammals just like me, they don't have any special "power".

Karen_*

They also say in AA to take the bits you like and leave the bits you don't like about it. Loads of long timers haven't done the steps for example or ever got a sponsor. In alot of cases its that they are aetheists and don't beleive in the higher power concept. They still come along for the support and their friendships though. It still works for them. Totally accept though that its not for everyone. I don't know where I'd be without it myself. Can you still explain how its a cult and when it was given that official status?

As for repeating mantras, well there are little phrases that are thrown about alot. Such as 'one day at a time', 'This too shall pass' 'Easy does it' etc. Whats wrong with them? Everyone has little sayings. Are the scouts a cult too, I do believe they say prayers and have sayings.

Flamed Diving

I always felt that this "higher power" step was just passing the buck, but if it works for some people, then what harm? I'm off the drink since the 5th of July myself!

gerrytm

1: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. A power greater than ourselves is what it means. The cop-out of it can be "anything you want" is absurd. It's explicit. A power greater than ourselves. This cannot be your family member, or a rock or a car.

3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. God again.

4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. What have morals got to do with addiction?

5: Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. God again.

6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. God again.

7: Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. Here he is again.

8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
God makes another appearance.

12: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Here we have a spiritual awakening (as an atheist this kind of thing sets alarm bells ringing) and encouragement to spread "the word" of A.A. The religious connotations are explicit here.



The thread is about AA's suitability for atheists and agnostics. I contend that it's not, and it's irresponsible of its members, although entirely consistent with step 12, to recommend the organisation to vulnerable people of no faith as it's obviously a faith-based programme.

prinz

gerrytm wrote: »

The thread is about AA's suitability for atheists and agnostics. I contend that it's not, and it's irresponsible of its members, although entirely consistent with step 12, to recommend the organisation to vulnerable people of no faith as it's obviously a faith-based programme.

Gerry, AA began as a Christian organisation. Since then it has moved away from that tradition while keeping it's 'system' or programme as intact as possible. In most AA centres references to God are removed from the steps, and much as you don't find it palatable the 'higher power' can be anything/anyone you want it to be.

But fire ahead you've obviously got some axe to grind on this one... and I have a fair idea what that is.

gerrytm

Karen_* wrote: »

They also say in AA to take the bits you like and leave the bits you don't like about it.

I don't understand this at all. Is it a programme you have to follow or not? Did the writers of the "Big Book" and the steps have this in mind, ie an a la carte programme? Which bits are essential and which bits aren't? Has any research been done on the the most effective bits and the least?

As for the cult thing, I unwisely used the word in a previous post and don't wish to get into that one. There's a wealth of material pertaining to this on the internet, though.

gerrytm

prinz wrote: »

Gerry, AA began as a Christian organisation. Since then it has moved away from that tradition while keeping it's 'system' or programme as intact as possible. In most AA centres references to God are removed from the steps, and much as you don't find it palatable the 'higher power' can be anything/anyone you want it to be.

But fire ahead you've obviously got some axe to grind on this one... and I have a fair idea what that is.

You've already mentioned this, and I've explained how this concept is absurd for an atheist. It's nothing to do with whether I find it palatable or not: we're talking about how this concept sits with atheists.

When you say "most" centres, how much is most and do you have any figures to back that statement up? You say that the organisation has moved away from the christian tradition. Has the "Big Book" been revised to reflect this change?

prinz

gerrytm wrote: »

You've already mentioned this, and I've explained how this concept is absurd for an atheist. It's nothing to do with whether I find it palatable or not: we're talking about how this concept sits with atheists.

Yes, and you're coming at it from a militant atheist point of view and not opening your mind. It has worked for atheists. Replace 'higher power' with counsellor, friend, anybody you can rely on to help you get through your recovery. It might not work for everyone but it does work for some atheists, just like it might not work for every theist but does work for some. Claiming it as a cult/or religion through the back door is nonsense.

gerrytm

prinz wrote: »

Yes, and you're coming at it from a militant atheist point of view and not opening your mind. It has worked for atheists. Replace 'higher power' with counsellor, friend, anybody you can rely on to help you get through your recovery. It might not work for everyone but it does work for some atheists, just like it might not work for every theist but does work for some. Claiming it as a cult/or religion through the back door is nonsense.

I don't know where to start with this one. Atheists, by definition, do not believe in the irrational and instead of having faith in something they use reason. This is the default position of an atheist. It's neither militant or soft. The constant is a complete rejection of the irrational, for example, the "Higher Power" concept.

Again you mention that some atheists have had success with the programme, and again I say this is anecdotal. I'm happy for them, though and anyone who gets sober. it's not easy.To repeat myself once again, though, the thread is about the suitability of the AA programme for atheists. I contend that there is too much religious and faith based ideas there for atheists, and atheists would be better off with alternative treatment such as a professional addiction counsellor or Rational Recovery.

Flamed Diving

gerrytm wrote: »

This is the default position of an atheist.

No, it isn't. An atheist's position is 'There is no God'. If you attempt to tack anything extra onto this, it becomes a doctrine. I suggest visiting the A&A forum and starting a thread if you would like to discuss this point further. But, to reiterate, you are wrong.

prinz

gerrytm wrote: »

I contend that there is too much religious and faith based ideas there for atheists, and atheists would be better off with alternative treatment such as a professional addiction counsellor or Rational Recovery.

What if your "higher power" is your addiction counsellor? There doesn't have to be anything irrational about it. You just refuse to accept that the so-called "higher power" can now be interpreted as anyone/anything, I believe the only clause is that it be external to yourself, i.e. if you are tempted you need someone to be able to call day or night, or something to rely on. I have heard of someone who used travel as their "higher power", so when tempted by alcohol they would go to a travel agents instead of the pub and go through various cruises/holidays etc. It was what helped them refocus and resist the addiction. In the end, with the money saved from not drinking, they went on a 'dry cruise'.

It is called a "higher power" because of the origins of AA. It is no longer faith based or religion based.

gerrytm

prinz wrote: »

What if your "higher power" is your addiction counsellor? There doesn't have to be anything irrational about it. You just refuse to accept that the so-called "higher power" can now be interpreted as anyone/anything, I believe the only clause is that it be external to yourself, i.e. if you are tempted you need someone to be able to call day or night, or something to rely on. I have heard of someone who used travel as their "higher power", so when tempted by alcohol they would go to a travel agents instead of the pub and go through various cruises/holidays etc. It was what helped them refocus and resist the addiction. In the end, with the money saved from not drinking, they went on a 'dry cruise'.

It is called a "higher power" because of the origins of AA. It is no longer faith based or religion based.

That's just simply untrue. If that were the case, the steps and the "Big Book" would be re-written to reflect this shift. Here's a sample quote from the "Big Book".

"If you think you are an atheist, an agnostic, a skeptic, or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book, I feel sorry for you."

Now, there may be less loyalist groups and there may be more militant groups. But this isn't the point. The AA handbook is clear, and for the purposes of this thread quotes like these are relevant. And there are a lot more.

So, you're saying one can go to AA and also have an addiction counsellor who in turn is your "Higher Power?"

Further to your other point, I can't accept the idea of a "Higher Power" being anything or anything, no, especially when it's explicit in AA literature that this means God. Again, your anecdotal examples of the "higher power" being anything you want are uplifting and satisfying on a human level. Again, for the purposes of this thread they are irrelevant.

prinz

gerrytm wrote: »

The AA handbook is clear, and for the purposes of this thread quotes like these are relevant. And there are a lot more.

No they are not relevant, as I said, AA began as an organisation with a Christian emphasis. This is clearly no longer applicable, and the steps are open to reinterpretation and redefinition.

gerrytm wrote: »

Further to your other point, I can't accept the idea of a "Higher Power" being anything or anything, no, especially when it's explicit in AA literature that this means God.

...and we're back to your militant atheism. What you can and cannot accept. Guess what..there's more to life than you and plenty of atheists have found that AA works for them.

gerrytm

prinz wrote: »

No they are not relevant, as I said, AA began as an organisation with a Christian emphasis. This is clearly no longer applicable, and the steps are open to reinterpretation and redefinition.



...and we're back to your militant atheism. What you can and cannot accept. Guess what..there's more to life than you and plenty of atheists have found that AA works for them.

Point one. It is relevant, as long as the literature of the organisation continues to emphasise it. I really don't know how this is difficult for you to understand.

Point two. Militant atheism? Please. For example your quaint "Higher Power", "a power greater than ourselves" anecdote about travel would induce scepticism in a 7 year old who believes in Father Christmas. "Oh, I'm dying for a drink. Nah, I'm off to Budget travel." That's irrational, period. With regards to AA working for atheists, do you have any figures to back that statement up? "Plenty". How many is that? 2, 3, 4, and out of how many that went?

prinz

gerrytm wrote: »

With regards to AA working for atheists, do you have any figures to back that statement up? "Plenty". How many is that? 2, 3, 4, and out of how many that went?

You came on and made the claim...do you have anything to back up your assertion that it doesn't work for atheists or agnostics?

iguana

gerrytm wrote: »

4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. What have morals got to do with addiction?

I agree with your points on the other steps but you are wrong on this one. Alcoholics do horrible, horrible things when they are at their worst. They lie to the people who love them, treat them in nasty disrespectful ways. Starts arguments because they are drunk/to justify their drinking. Hurt them, take liberty with their safety - such as insisting on driving when intoxicated/passing out while smoking/cooking. Steal money, hide alcohol about the house where children might find it, don't feed their kids properly, drink during pregnancy (women only obv). Aren't capable of being there for their loved ones when they are needed and on and on and on.

When an alcoholic decides to get sober they need to look very honestly at their behaviour while drinking. Most people have some sort of moral code and when the alcoholic looks at their behaviour they will more than likely see that the person they have taken that code and crapped all over it. This can be a huge wake up call to the drinker which helps them to see that they need to change drastically so they can be the person they want to be.

Karen_*

You'd swear AA was dragging people in off the streets to attend meetings. If you don't like it and it doesn't work for you then you don't have to go.

If you're alcoholic and you don't like AA then just give up yourself or go to a counsellor. There are other options. No point whinging about AA and trying to make it out to be something sinister. How does that help you?

And if Aetheists or agonositics don't like AA then nothing stopping them going somewhere else or even setting something up that DOES suit them.

I really don't know why people seem to think that someone else should be fixing everything and making things nice and cosy for them. Support and help is there and if you don't like it then you don't have to take it.

gerrytm

prinz wrote: »

You came on and made the claim...do you have anything to back up your assertion that it doesn't work for atheists or agnostics?

I said, due to the heavy emphasis on spirituality/religion, "higher power" etc, it wouldn't be suitable for atheists and that they would be better off looking for secular treatment. I said as follows: "I don't think it's suitable for people of that bent." There is simply too much too ignore. I never said it "didn't work" for them. We can all look at AA's success rates on our own time with the help of Mr Google.

You say that AA has changed, is there any documentation regarding this change in outlook, for example independent academic studies? I say that the organisation's literature hasn't reflected this change. Atheists will read the "Big Book" and be put-off. Simples. This is my point in a nutshell.

gerrytm

iguana wrote: »

I agree with your points on the other steps but you are wrong on this one. Alcoholics do horrible, horrible things when they are at their worst. They lie to the people who love them, treat them in nasty disrespectful ways. Starts arguments because they are drunk/to justify their drinking. Hurt them, take liberty with their safety - such as insisting on driving when intoxicated/passing out while smoking/cooking. Steal money, hide alcohol about the house where children might find it, don't feed their kids properly, drink during pregnancy (women only obv). Aren't capable of being there for their loved ones when they are needed and on and on and on.

When an alcoholic decides to get sober they need to look very honestly at their behaviour while drinking. Most people have some sort of moral code and when the alcoholic looks at their behaviour they will more than likely see that the person they have taken that code and crapped all over it. This can be a huge wake up call to the drinker which helps them to see that they need to change drastically so they can be the person they want to be.

Very good point, and I stand corrected.