WWE - a wrestling show, more, less?

davrho

orestes wrote: »

I have only seen a tiny bit of TNA and no ROH or DG so my only exposure to wrestling has been through WWE which doesn't even count as a wrestling show anymore.

So when did it not count from not being a wrestling show?

See if it where not for the wwe most people would have no interest in pro wrestling. WWE is important to get the kids in. See when you slate the wwe think back to why you are a wrestling fan. (rant over but hope you know where i am coming from)

On one of American sites i post on i think there are loads of links to what your looking for. I will have a look for you. Its a pity the wrestling channel is now gone. There was great shows from all over the globe that would have been ideal for you.

EdK

davrho wrote: »

So when did it not count from not being a wrestling show?

See if it where not for the wwe most people would have no interest in pro wrestling. WWE is important to get the kids in. See when you slate the wwe think back to why you are a wrestling fan. (rant over but hope you know where i am coming from)

On one of American sites i post on i think there are loads of links to what your looking for. I will have a look for you. Its a pity the wrestling channel is now gone. There was great shows from all over the globe that would have been ideal for you.

Or you could say WWE killed wrestling by destroying the territory system and running everyone out of business tomayto tomato lol

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

So when did it not count from not being a wrestling show?

WWE is not a wrestling programme. If you ask Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn they will specifically tell you that they are not Pro Wrestling.

davrho

I will ask them the next time i see them:rolleyes: You think they would change the name of the company if its not a wrestling show. Its pretty confusing. lol.

Edk yes i would agree with that a bit but on the other hand they have made it mainstream and accessable to a worldwide audience?

orestes

davrho wrote: »

So when did it not count from not being a wrestling show?

See if it where not for the wwe most people would have no interest in pro wrestling. WWE is important to get the kids in. See when you slate the wwe think back to why you are a wrestling fan. (rant over but hope you know where i am coming from)

I see where you are coming from but WWE long ago stopped being a wrestling show, which even they admit and Vince will admit, it is sports entertainment, not the same thing to me

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

I will ask them the next time i see them:rolleyes:

Jim Cornette used argue with Kevin Dunn because he'd refuse to admit that he produces a Pro Wrestling show. They're almost ashamed that they're in the wrestling business and it's the main reason Vince has repeatedly tried (and failed) to do something outside of wrestling, whether it be bodybuilding, XFL or films and now they're new big idea is a TV channel.

davrho

If someone is going to tell a bare faced lie it dont mean they are right. I could wear a wig and pretend not to be bald argue like feck about it but bottom line i am a baldy.:)

davrho

Why is wwe in the pro wrestling section if its not pro wrestling?

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

Why is wwe in the pro wrestling section if its not pro wrestling?

Because the WWE is wrestling, they'll just never admit it. Thus the invention of the words "Sports Entertainment".

davrho

Thank you. Seems like a lot of folk on here have problems admitting wwe is wrestling too.

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

Thank you. Seems like a lot of folk on here have problems admitting wwe is wrestling too.

Not many here deny that WWE is wrestling but it's whether it's good wrestling or not. And if people here don't consider WWE wrestling they have every right to as neither do WWE themselves.

davrho

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Not many here deny that WWE is wrestling but it's whether it's good wrestling or not. And if people here don't consider WWE wrestling they have every right to as neither do WWE themselves.

A few on this thread have. The quality is not the issue here.

If people are going to believe something because the wwe told them to believe it then they should have a good look at themselves. They have every right to be considered foolish too.

Machismo Fan

davrho wrote: »

If people are going to believe something because the wwe told them to believe it then they should have a good look at themselves. They have every right to be considered foolish too.

But WWE don't tell people to believe anything, it's what WWE themselves believe. Why would they be foolish for referring to WWE by what WWE want to be referred? If anything it's those that do refer to WWE as wrestling that are wrong.

davrho

See the bald post.


If those who refer to wwe as wrestling are wrong can we have wwe posts moved out the pro wrestling section. As you say they are wrong.

michael.etc...

davrho wrote: »

See the bald post.
If those who refer to wwe as wrestling are wrong can we have wwe posts moved out the pro wrestling section. As you say they are wrong.

The point is, the WWE don't consider themselves merely "wrestling"- and the men in charge such as Dunn and McMahon hate the term. They consider themselves above mere "wrestling" and purveyors of Sports Entertainment. It's a crazy viewpoint, but that's what they think.
And it's thus easy to get frustrated when they have the potential to be the best "wrestling" show around, yet they insist on booking Diva searches, comedy skits, and wannabe mini-movies, that aren't taken seriously.
WWE want you to consider their product as more than "just wrestling", but in doing so, completely dilute it and leave themselves open to bein less about actual wrestling than they should be. There's nothing wrong with referring to their stuff as "not wrestling", as a criticism, when that's what they're aiming for, but they're succeeding in the wrong way.

Rjd2

michael.etc... wrote: »

The point is, the WWE don't consider themselves merely "wrestling"- and the men in charge such as Dunn and McMahon hate the term. They consider themselves above mere "wrestling" and purveyors of Sports Entertainment. It's a crazy viewpoint, but that's what they think.
And it's thus easy to get frustrated when they have the potential to be the best "wrestling" show around, yet they insist on booking Diva searches, comedy skits, and wannabe mini-movies, that aren't taken seriously.
WWE want you to consider their product as more than "just wrestling", but in doing so, completely dilute it and leave themselves open to bein less about actual wrestling than they should be. There's nothing wrong with referring to their stuff as "not wrestling", as a criticism, when that's what they're aiming for, but they're succeeding in the wrong way.

So what is Smackdown, ECW and Superstars? 3 heavy wrestling shows if you ask me. Raw may be sports entertainment but Vince figures that draws viewers which is something which is essential for their survival on a network that is not keen on wrestling.

davrho

Agree with the majority of that post Michael.

But using the "not wrestling" as a critisism to me is an excuse many folk use when they get older and realise that they have out grew the show.

As i stated on my first post the wwe is an important factor for getting kids into wrestling. Normally older teens and young men use the "not wrestling" when they mature and their tastes change.

See when kids start saying "can i watch the sports entertainment?" i will change my opinion.

good point 2 rjd2

michael.etc...

Rjd2 wrote: »

So what is Smackdown, ECW and Superstars? 3 heavy wrestling shows if you ask me. Raw may be sports entertainment but Vince figures that draws viewers which is something which is essential for their survival on a network that is not keen on wrestling.

It's the same principle though on all of those shows. But Vince has less input/interest, and that ensures that we get a healthier balance of the different aspects of wrestling vs entertainment. There's greater freedom and experimentation. You're right though- the Smackdown show in particular has featured great wrestling over the years.

The network point is a very good one too. We all tend to forget that side of the discussion alot of the time.

davrho- I agree with your point that some people use this criticism as one to excuse the fact that it's something that no longer appeals to them. It's not right to criticize Raw as being crap or unsuccesful in it's goals, purely on the basis that it no longer appeals to yourself.

rossie1977

Machismo Fan wrote: »

WWE is not a wrestling programme. If you ask Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn they will specifically tell you that they are not Pro Wrestling.

because wwe get tax breaks for not being a "wrestling company", in the states sports organisations and this includes pro-wrestling have to pay certain tax, vince pulled the wool over their eyes by renaming his product "sports entertainment", also vince doesn't refer to his wrestlers as wrestlers but "contractors" again to avoid tax

you are a big tna fan, surely if you think wwe is not a wrestling program then neither is tna, does roh not have gimmicks, angles?? how exactly was wcw in the 1990s different from wwe today??

Rjd2

rossie1977 wrote: »

how exactly was wcw in the 1990s different from wwe today??

It had less wrestling.:pac:

rossie1977

Rjd2 wrote: »

It had less wrestling.:pac:

and it had these, and they said it was hogan and his cronies or vince russo that made wcw a silly place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsqA4w9IbeQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRsgDudT7D4

Bubs101

Machismo Fan wrote: »

WWE is not a wrestling programme. If you ask Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn they will specifically tell you that they are not Pro Wrestling.

I know this week is not the best example given TNA's tournament last episode but in general WWE has far more wrestling on TV then TNA, it's biggest competitors and have produced what is probably the best match of the year in America in HBK vs. Taker.

The way it works now is Raw is the kiddies show, Smackdown is more wrestling based but with stars and Superstars and ECW are heavily wrestling based.

As for them not using the term wrestling as much, who gives a ****.
A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet

Handsome Bob

Machismo Fan wrote: »

WWE is not a wrestling programme. If you ask Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn they will specifically tell you that they are not Pro Wrestling.

So WTF do they call wrestling bouts? Please don't say "fights". They are in denial, if they don't want to be a wrestling show then they might as well refer to their show as a shit soap (aren't they all, soaps I mean :pac:)?

rossie1977

Bubs101 wrote: »

I know this week is not the best example given TNA's tournament last episode but in general WWE has far more wrestling on TV then TNA, it's biggest competitors and have produced what is probably the best match of the year in America in HBK vs. Taker.

The way it works now is Raw is the kiddies show, Smackdown is more wrestling based but with stars and Superstars and ECW are heavily wrestling based.

As for them not using the term wrestling as much, who gives a ****.
A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet

spot on assessment, sports entertainment is a completely meaningless term anyway that i think dave meltzer coined at the start of the 80s for a laugh

wwe 3hr ppvs (really 2hr 45min on air) average about 100 minutes of in-ring action discounting entrances, promos etc, roughly the same as tna

Machismo Fan

I'm being misunderstood here. I consider WWE a wrestling programme, always have, always will but what I was saying is that there can be a reasonable argument made that WWE is not a wrestling show because the most influential person in the company and one of the most influential people in the company don't like to consider it so.

I hate saying what a wrestling show is and isn't as they come in all different shapes and sizes. I have what I prefer in a wrestling show (and for the record I'm the first to beg for more, longer wrestling on iMPACT!) but I understand that not all wrestling shows fit what I want but I try to enjoy each for their better qualities.

rossie1977

i think the problem with raw for a while now is that it has become one giant 2hr advertisement for the upcoming ppv, unlike say 1998 when angles on raw built up to a match at a ppv, its not as if the writers have forgotten or are not able to build exciting and interesting storylines on tv, orton and HHH buildup to mania was great, jericho and michaels last year fantastic

Fozzy

rossie1977 wrote: »

because wwe get tax breaks for not being a "wrestling company", in the states sports organisations and this includes pro-wrestling have to pay certain tax, vince pulled the wool over their eyes by renaming his product "sports entertainment", also vince doesn't refer to his wrestlers as wrestlers but "contractors" again to avoid tax

He didn't pull the wool over anyone's eyes, WWE is still treated as a pro wrestling promotion by the athletic commissions that still deal with pro wrestling

Being a "wrestler" and being an "independent contractor" are not mutually exclusive. The reasoning behind Vince distancing himself from those terms is just due to a personal dislike that he has against anything that sounds like it's from old Southern wrestling

Dave Meltzer wrote something recently about how Vince watched a boxing show one weekend and came to Raw the next day talking about how they still used all the old school wrestling terms, like naming the referees and calling belts "belts"

MuscleShark

Pro wrestling is very bad now. Less ratings, Less PPV buys and less entertaining. What the hell is RAW doing bringing special guests every week feels like watching tonight show. The only time im watching WWE is smackdown i only like the idea of pushing guys like CM Punk or John Morrison. I think its time for old guys to step back and let them push young stars just like TNA did with Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Cris Daniels or ROH danielson..mcguiness so on. I just cant stand WWE at the moment or TNA with their no sense main event mafia storyline. Past cannot be created again its now pro wrestling need new stars.

sky88

rossie1977 wrote: »

and it had these, and they said it was hogan and his cronies or vince russo that made wcw a silly place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsqA4w9IbeQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRsgDudT7D4

all your missing is the one with robocop and it would be wcw worst moments

davrho

Machismo Fan wrote: »

WWE is not a wrestling programme.

Machismo Fan wrote: »

. I consider WWE a wrestling programme, always have, always will

Thats a huge change of mind from your first post on the subject.

If i own a helicopter and call it a boat am i right because its my boat and other people should call it a boat too. Thats how ridiculous that worldwide wrestling entertainment not being wrestling programs sounds to me. I dont see how Vince has the call on the subject just because he owns wwe. As i said when kids start asking to watch sports entertainment and not wrestling i will change my mind.

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I hate saying what a wrestling show is and isn't as they come in all different shapes and sizes. I have what I prefer in a wrestling show (and for the record I'm the first to beg for more, longer wrestling on iMPACT!) but I understand that not all wrestling shows fit what I want but I try to enjoy each for their better qualities.

I agree with this comment and everyone has there own tastes and different shows appeal more to them than others. But this "not wrestling" because you dont like particular brand/show just sounds like bitterness to me.

EdK

davrho wrote: »

Thats a huge change of mind from your first post on the subject.

If i own a helicopter and call it a boat am i right because its my boat and other people should call it a boat too. Thats how ridiculous that worldwide wrestling entertainment not being wrestling programs sounds to me. I dont see how Vince has the call on the subject just because he owns wwe. As i said when kids start asking to watch sports entertainment and not wrestling i will change my mind.



I agree with this comment and everyone has there own tastes and different shows appeal more to them than others. But this "not wrestling" because you dont like particular brand/show just sounds like bitterness to me.

I think he is saying that he considers/wants WWE to be a wrestling programme even if they themselves don't

flahavaj

Did anyone actually read what Machismo Fan posted before they did? Even if they didn't, Fozzy and michael. etc have made his point perfectly. No ones bashing WWE on here, just commenting on McMahon's own perception of what his company is and should be.

Bounty Hunter

flahavaj wrote: »

Did anyone actually read what Machismo Fan posted before they did? Even if they didn't, Fozzy and michael. etc have made his point perfectly. No ones bashing WWE on here, just commenting on McMahon's own perception of what his company is and should be.

i dont know if it is but if the title of the thread is influencing what people are posting about tell me ill change it, as i just quickly picked that cos obviously this convo had nothing to do with suggesting new wrestling types to watch.

flahavaj

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

i dont know if it is but if the title of the thread is influencing what people are posting about tell me ill change it, as i just quickly picked that cos obviously this convo had nothing to do with suggesting new wrestling types to watch.

Nah, don't think its that bai, it seems to be Machismo Fan's fairly straightforward post that has people jumping to all the wrong conclusions.

DM_7

WWE, World Wrestling Enertainment is far more than a wrestling show.

Its exactly what the name says, its world wide with world wide appeal. Its takes performers from around the world and puts them on tv shows, PPVs and touring shows to entertain people through professional wrestling and entertaining performances.

It still has wrestling, some brilliant wrestlers and some very good wrestling matches. But its not aimed only at people who like professional wrestling, its aimed at a larger audience and thats where entertainment comes into it.

There are many other reasons that the sports entertainment term exists. But the main reason its used by WWE is because they rightly consider themselves more than a professional wrestling company. Thats not a criticism, WWE have simply outgrown the label of professional wrestling.

Vince135792003

Bubs101 wrote: »

The way it works now is Raw is the kiddies show, Smackdown is more wrestling based but with stars and Superstars and ECW are heavily wrestling based.

The average age of the 5 million people who watch Raw is usually around 34. 2 weeks ago it was as high as 40.

From the observer 2 weeks ago:

Raw on 8/31 did a 3.64 rating and 5.13 million viewers. The show did a 2.75 rating in Males 18-49, down 10%. The audience was 69% male with the average viewer being 40, one of the first times in history the average Raw viewer has been of that age

Raw on 8/24 did a 3.93 rating and 5.86 million viewers. The show did a 3.04 in Males 18-49, doing 65% male with the average viewer being 37.

kyp_durron

How do they get those figures? The bill payer?

davrho

flahavaj wrote: »

Did anyone actually read what Machismo Fan posted before they did? Even if they didn't, Fozzy and michael. etc have made his point perfectly. No ones bashing WWE on here, just commenting on McMahon's own perception of what his company is and should be.

Yes.
I agreed with the majority of Fozzy and michaels post too.

See your last sentence. I would question that. I would say its what McMahon wants the public to believe his company is and should be. We know its a lot of nonsense though. Thats why we all still call it wrestling, our kids call it wrestling and nobody uses the phrase "sports entertainment" unless they are wwe bashing.

flahavaj

People who want to bash WWE and also Vince himself use the term, which yet again was kinda what Machismo said 3 pages ago. Why is this still being debated?

davrho

Its still being debated because many posts like your last 2 out your last 3 are asking questions;).

To be honest i thought it was good stuff with a lot of good input from all posters.

Bubs101

Vince135792003 wrote: »

The average age of the 5 million people who watch Raw is usually around 34. 2 weeks ago it was as high as 40.

From the observer 2 weeks ago:

Those numbers are surprising but surely you'd agree that the show with Hornswaggle and D-X is the one aimed at kids, regardless of the numbers

big syke

davrho wrote: »

Why is wwe in the pro wrestling section if its not pro wrestling?

Well firstly because theres no sports entertainment section and secondly there is wrestling in WWEs sports entertainment show so the smart thing would be to put it in the pro wrestling section

rossie1977

Bubs101 wrote: »

Those numbers are surprising but surely you'd agree that the show with Hornswaggle and D-X is the one aimed at kids, regardless of the numbers

they did have bob barker and zz top guest hosts, nobody under 40 would know who they are, i am too young to remember zz top :pac:

davrho

big syke wrote: »

there is wrestling in WWEs sports entertainment show so the smart thing would be to put it in the pro wrestling section

Not according to Vince and the folk here who have swallowed this nonsense. I agree with you all the same.

See what your saying Bubs about Hornswoggle the Smackdown fans never called it kids stuff when he was on their show. What changed? I would say the people who who slate the opposite show but find almost mirror images in their own favorite show acceptable are as deluded as the not wresting cos vince said so brigade.

Rjd2

davrho wrote: »

Not according to Vince and the folk here who have swallowed this nonsense. I agree with you all the same.

See what your saying Bubs about Hornswoggle the Smackdown fans never called it kids stuff when he was on their show. What changed? I would say the people who who slate the opposite show but find almost mirror images in their own favorite show acceptable are as deluded as the not wresting cos vince said so brigade.

Because a lot of the people on this site were fine with Swoggle on ECW because due to his association Finlay was over and was getting a push which most people were happy with. He was harmless, the stuff with Chavo in many people’s opinion is bloody horrendous. He may be over and sell hats but you can understand why people really dislike Hornswoggle compared to his harmless ECW self.

big syke

Not according to Vince and the folk here who have swallowed this nonsense

No most people here agree thats its an entertainment show with aspects of pro wrestling in it.. and thats what vinces business plan (for raw anyway) is...

Raw is vinces entertainment hub full of his crazy entertainment/humour (that he sometimes only seems to get), smackdown is the Pro wrestling show and ECW is the development show...

To say WWE is not a pro wrestling show would not be entirely correct but then again saying it is a pro wrestling show would not be entirely correct either...

rossie1977

big syke wrote: »

No most people here agree thats its an entertainment show with aspects of pro wrestling in it.. and thats what vinces business plan (for raw anyway) is...

Raw is vinces entertainment hub full of his crazy entertainment/humour (that he sometimes only seems to get), smackdown is the Pro wrestling show and ECW is the development show...

To say WWE is not a pro wrestling show would not be entirely correct but then again saying it is a pro wrestling show would not be entirely correct either...

i don't understand, pro-wrestling is entertainment, well at least its supposed to be :pac:

in united states all pro-wrestling on tv is presented as an entertainment show with aspects of pro-wrestling in it or vice versa, this has been the case for well over 30 years, Jim Crockett Jr was running a more entertainment based pro-wrestling show in terms of angles and promos at the same time vince sr ran wwwf, vince jr saw that and stole most of his ideas and talent

hulk hogans shoot from circa 2002 is good, he was asked if he thought ric flair was the greatest wrestler of all time, his reply "flair is not a wrestler, flair like me is an entertainer"

its a bit like saying if the nba had midgets running around, guys dressed up in stupid costumes spraying people, old people dancing and racing cars during timeouts then its not a basketball show........ they do have all those things lol

davrho

Rjd2 wrote: »

. He was harmless, the stuff with Chavo in many people’s opinion is bloody horrendous.

But it was acceptable on Smackdown with Jamie Noble

davrho

big syke wrote: »

To say WWE is not a pro wrestling show would not be entirely correct but then again saying it is a pro wrestling show would not be entirely correct either...

Whats the criteria?

So what where the original ECW,WCW and TNA?

If TNA is pro wrestling what was the deal with an sharkboy, in the shark house with his shark family? Why have the big thanksgiving day food fight and have styles(or was it angle) dressed as a turkey? I am not having a go at TNA but this stuff would be slaughtered if wwe done it?

WCW and ECW had plenty of these sideshows too. Its part of the package.

I would call all this stuff pro wrestling. A mixture of farse,fantasy,spoofs and sport(you know what i mean). Its been like this since for the when i watch World of Sports on a saturday morning many moons ago.

Now i can see why the dragongate ppv's are rated so highly by the more purists of the fans and the older generations. But (back to original point) kids wont buy this. They want the glitz and the glam of the mainstream pro wrestling which wwe and TNA provides and wcw used too. All on their days good stuff.

Rjd2

davrho wrote: »

But it was acceptable on Smackdown with Jamie Noble

Honestly I don't remember the stuff with Noble to well, but I doubt people were calling him "The Rock" back then. :pac:

davrho

Rjd2 wrote: »

Honestly I don't remember the stuff with Noble to well

That seems to be a common trait with wrestling fans forgetting the faults of their preferred shows. If trapping your with Lucky Charms and setting acme traps every week is not horrendus what is. Maybe Hornswoggle winning the cruiserweight title when there was a locker room full of talented wrestlers might bring back a few memories.........