La Marmotte 2010

Ryaner

The guys in Tour d'oisans have just put their package online in case anyone is looking to book it. Found here
At 450GBP for 8 nights fully supported, its quite a deal.

Bikerbhoy

Ryaner wrote: »

The guys in Tour d'oisans have just put their package online in case anyone is looking to book it. Found here
At 450GBP for 8 nights fully supported, its quite a deal.

I presume you are aware that that price is excluding flights !!!!

Ryaner

Bikerbhoy wrote: »

I presume you are aware that that price is excluding flights !!!!

Yup. Closest other deal was 900 for 4 days with flights. Flights should only come in around 160 with the bike.

stopped_clock

Any idea what date the Marmotte will be in 2010?

Ryaner

stopped_clock wrote: »

Any idea what date the Marmotte will be in 2010?

Saturday July 3rd.

blorg

That is not a bad price, although it is basically just accommodation and doesn't include much else (airport transfers would be the valuable thing and they are extra.)

As the Marmotte basically starts and finishes at the same place support isn't really so necessary- although it would arguably be nice to have. Also they seem to be including three days of vehicle supported rides before it, which is certainly not a bad deal.

There is actually a series, the Grand Trophée, which includes four events around Bourg d'Oisans in the space of a week:

La Vaujany the previous sunday (seems almost as difficult as the Marmotte with 173km, 4,500m climbing), the Prix des Rousses on the Wednesday (only 40km but 1,600m climbing), the Marmotte itself on the Saturday and then the Grimpee de L'Alpe climb of Alpe d'Huez on Sunday.

I intend riding this next year.

stopped_clock

blorg wrote: »

That is not a bad price, although it is basically just accommodation and doesn't include much else (airport transfers would be the valuable thing and they are extra.)

As the Marmotte basically starts and finishes at the same place support isn't really so necessary- although it would arguably be nice to have. Also they seem to be including three days of vehicle supported rides before it, which is certainly not a bad deal.

As the Marmotte basically starts and finishes at the same place support isn't really so necessary- although it would arguably be nice to have. Also they seem to be including three days of vehicle supported rides before it, which is certainly not a bad deal.

There's also the question of how useful a support car would be on the day - it might take a while to get to you. It could be useful if you're staying on the Alpe but only make it to the bottom during the event. As can happen to even the strongest and best-prepared cyclists... Except the accomodation is in Bourg I think.

I really liked the look of the pre-Marmotte training weeks, and will look into them, work allowing.

blorg wrote: »

There is actually a series, the Grand Trophée, which includes four events around Bourg d'Oisans in the space of a week:

La Vaujany the previous sunday (seems almost as difficult as the Marmotte with 173km, 4,500m climbing), the Prix des Rousses on the Wednesday (only 40km but 1,600m climbing), the Marmotte itself on the Saturday and then the Grimpee de L'Alpe climb of Alpe d'Huez on Sunday.

I intend riding this next year.

I also like the sound of La Vaujany - after climbing to Alpe d'Huez, you keeping going up to the Col du Sarenne. I did that this in reverse after the Marmotte this year and it was my favourite climb of the week. Much harder from the Huez side though.

I think there's another race/sportive (but maybe not part of the Grand Trophee) from Grenoble to somewhere in the Oisans valley which is about 300km.

I might have a crack at the Grand Trophee myself next year - again annual leave permitting.

Ryaner

The 8 nights there and the 3 supported rides before the actual Marmotte are what appealed. Having never hit hills like these before, I'm expecting it to be someone "difficult" when the day comes around.

And booking this early means that I can't back out and have a very BIG incentive to train over the winter. I def need to!

blorg

stopped_clock wrote: »

I also like the sound of La Vaujany - after climbing to Alpe d'Huez, you keeping going up to the Col du Sarenne. I did that this in reverse after the Marmotte this year and it was my favourite climb of the week. Much harder from the Huez side though.

I've been up there myself, from Alpe d'Huez- it's not much more on top of that. Very nice, reminiscent of Ireland in many ways (including the road surface, and the day we were there, the weather too ) I've also been up a couple of the other ones I think including the Ornon- they are the other side of the valley from Bourg.

stopped_clock

blorg wrote: »

I've been up there myself, from Alpe d'Huez- it's not much more on top of that. Very nice, reminiscent of Ireland in many ways (including the road surface, and the day we were there, the weather too ) I've also been up a couple of the other ones I think including the Ornon- they are the other side of the valley from Bourg.

I'd agree that some of those roads were very like the ones here. I went up towards the Col d'Ornon myself, but it was a recovery ride, so I turned off and went to Ornon itself before turning back. I'd nearly go so far as to say some of the smaller roads out of the valley are much nicer than the Ad'H climb itself, which is more like a main road. It's the intangibles like the history and fame of the climb which mean I'd only 'nearly' say that...

There's a lot of work to be done over the winter before I start thinking any more about this Grand Trophee, but it might go some way to justifying a new bike purchase in the spring!

blorg

Yes, I completely agree, Alpe d'Huez is actually just about the ugliest climb I have ever done in high mountains... but with the history, and the names painted on the road...

Found a photo of the Sarenne (we had just emerged from a snowstorm):

ROK ON

I fancy doing something like this, but dont particulaalry like the idea of doing it with 7000 other cyclists. The more I think about it, Mr Grimes diy Marmotte is the way to go, if one gets a small but committed group.

blorg

I've done this sort of thing both ways... both have their merits. Basically do you prefer doing a sportive or long solo rides. (I enjoy both here.) Doing it on the day itself there is a great sense of occasion and support. The Marmotte is not unlike an Irish sportive but on a much bigger scale and much better organised. Entry fee is only €40 which is very reasonable. What is it about the 7000 other cyclists you don't like- because many of the problems certain Irish sportives have don't really apply here, it is very well run.

Also consider other stuff like the Raid Pyrénéen which is designed to be done self-organised. Did this with just one other person, barrabus (who also did the Marmotte) - I think it probably pips it.

Something to consider with a group DIY Marmotte is that everyone is probably going to want to proceed around at their own pace- there was a significant difference between when myself, barrabus and emty got home and we are all of a broadly similar ability... with 7000 other cyclists you always have someone else to cycle with, with a group of dissimilar abilities it could all get fairly strung out, or frustrating/killing if there were attempts to hold it together.

It's a great day though, Frank did it DIY because he missed the day itself, I really think going for the actual event is the way to go if you have the choice. As I say there are other things you can do on your own.

keogh777

Was thinking of doing this event next year. Heard lots of people tell me that you need a triple ring for this - just wondering what the people here used - would a 34 X 27 be sufficient ??

penexpers

34 x 27 sounds like a compact - I would think you would be grand with that.

keogh777

penexpers wrote: »

34 x 27 sounds like a compact - I would think you would be grand with that.

yeah i am using a compact on the front with a 12 - 27 cassette on the back. I was hoping that would be sufficient ?? dont really want to go down the triple route unless i have to

niceonetom

I'm planning on doing it next year too - I'm considering an 11-28. It's might be overkill but better to have it and not need it than the other way round. Anyone make an 11 - 27?

I'm deffo using an 11t though, those descents deserve it.

blorg

I did it with a compact this year and I found it very tough on the second half of the Galibier and the first half of the Alpe. I would have used a lower gear than 34-27 if I had it.

I would not have any problem with those climbs on their own (indeed I did the Raid, which has much steeper gradients, on a compact carrying luggage without any difficulty) but the Marmotte is a long long day. I would climb anything around Ireland on a standard 39 no problem BTW.

If that is what you have though you will probably be fine, changing to a triple is quite an involved task. I might stick on a 28 cassette for next year.

niceonetom

Thinking about it now I feel that what I'd actually want for the marmotte would be a cassette like this:

11 - 12 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 24 - 25 - 26 - 27 - 28

Dear Mr. Sram, can you make this happen?

penexpers

niceonetom wrote: »

Thinking about it now I feel that what I'd actually want for the marmotte would be a cassette like this:

11 - 12 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 24 - 25 - 26 - 27 - 28

Dear Mr. Sram, can you make this happen?

Apparently Ultegra 6700 has such a cassette.

niceonetom

I doubt that.

Lumen

IRD 10-speed cassettes are apparently available in 11-30, 11-32, 11-34, 12-30.

edit: more here.

niceonetom

It's not ultimate range I crave - 11-28 or 11-27 sounds about right - it's small jumps at the thick end of the block.

I used an 11-28 for a day in the alps before and I found the jump from 25 to 28 pretty drastic and it requires a sudden an significant rise in cadence to maintain precious momentum. A couple of cogs in between 25 and 28 would be lovely.

penexpers

niceonetom wrote: »

I doubt that.

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_1YX0A_001/SI-1YX0A-001-ENG_v1_m56577569830671287.pdf

niceonetom

niceonetom wrote: »

Thinking about it now I feel that what I'd actually want for the marmotte would be a cassette like this:

11 - 12 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 24 - 25 - 26 - 27 - 28

Dear Mr. Sram, can you make this happen?

penexpers wrote: »

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_1YX0A_001/SI-1YX0A-001-ENG_v1_m56577569830671287.pdf

PDF wrote:

11T, 12T, 13T, 14T, 15T, 17T, 19T, 21T, 24T, 28T

See the difference?

having 21 - 24 - 28 as your last three gears is terrible.

penexpers

niceonetom wrote: »

See the difference?

having 21 - 24 - 28 as your last three gears is terrible.

Ahh sorry, having a slow day. Only saw the 11-28 bit and ignored the rest

keogh777

blorg wrote: »

I did it with a compact this year and I found it very tough on the second half of the Galibier and the first half of the Alpe. I would have used a lower gear than 34-27 if I had it.

Thats my worry is hitting the Alpe and not being able to turn even a 34 - 28. I am an ok climber and have climbed all major Irish hills on a 39 but never having cycled in the Alps before i don't know what to expect. Its just the hassle of switching to a triple ring.........hhhuuuummmmm decisions, decisions, this will have to be given serious thought.

blorg

Switching to a triple is a hassle, no question. I certainly managed on the compact. I wouldn't change it, however if my good bike had it or I had a choice I might go with it.

There doesn't seem to be as much macho posturing over your gearing choice over there, triples were a lot more common that you would generally see here and I know several guys posting gold times used triples.

I would strongly advise getting out there and getting some practice on those sort of climbs in advance of doing the Marmotte. They are hard enough on their own never mind doing four in one day. I had reasonably extensive experience of similar climbs over the previous year on at least three or four holidays (Pyrenees, Alps, Sierra Nevada, Sardinia) and I think this was really invaluable. The challenge is not to be underestimated.

ROK ON

@Keogh777. If you can climb all here on 39 then your will probably be classed as a reasonable climber.

I have a triple on one bike and a compact on the other. But the cost for you of changing from double to triple, as opposed to compact is pretty high. Wheresa yu can buy a double crank as opposed to practically an entire group.

Also, the triple is heavier than the compact.

FWIW, I dont really like the compact, I prefer the 52/39/30 set up.
Most of the climbing I do is done in 39 ring, which is great for maintaining a nice rhythm when gearing down from the 52 ring. When the gradient hits the double figures for any sustained period I prefer being in 30/25 as opposed to 34/27. These gears are very close to each other in terms of gear inches. I guess a lot of this stuff is in the head. But if you are used to using a double, it would be costly (and possibly overkill) to change it all to a triple.

BTW, I was going to do this, but will instead do the Raid. Anyone up for it?

ROK ON

niceonetom wrote: »

See the difference?

having 21 - 24 - 28 as your last three gears is terrible.

On the questions that you posed, is iyt possible to get bespoke casettes?
I saw a 52/36 crankset the other day, so someone makes them. Thus is it possible to get tailored type combinations on the back?

niceonetom

ROK ON wrote: »

On the questions that you posed, is iyt possible to get bespoke casettes?
I saw a 52/36 crankset the other day, so someone makes them. Thus is it possible to get tailored type combinations on the back?

You can get chain rings in a endless variety of sizes and BCDs. Race, triple, compact, cross, the infamous "semi".

Cassettes seem to be a different beast. The biggest cogs are usually attached to each other so there no easy customisation potential there though I see mavic are selling 10-speeds with individual cogs that allow you to build custom cassettes. Biggest cog seems to be 27 though, and I havn't investigated which cogs are missing from their 12 cog 13t-27t pack...

There's a new dura ace 11-27 that might suit me though it is pricey. Ti though. If there was ever an excuse to weight-weenie-out the marmotte is it.

penexpers

ROK ON wrote: »

On the questions that you posed, is iyt possible to get bespoke casettes?
I saw a 52/36 crankset the other day, so someone makes them. Thus is it possible to get tailored type combinations on the back?

Sheldon Brown designed some for the bike shop he used to work in.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/k7.html#sprockets

Only come in 9 speed though.

keogh777

[There doesn't seem to be as much macho posturing over your gearing choice over there, triples were a lot more common that you would generally see here and I know several guys posting gold times used triples.

Two of the guys in the club did it last year and one the year before and all used triples and reckoned 80 - 90% of people there used triples. I just bought a nice new compact so i guess i will see how that works over here and then make a call. I hope to maybe get over there a few days before hand and do some climbs - could be an emergency trip to the bike shop to hire a bike with a triple !!!!!! - as you say any on their own would be managable, string 4 of them one after the other - thats a different matter altogether

cheers

emty

If you are just trying to survive and get around in one piece,like me , a compact will be fine but maybe if you are trying to set a fast time a triple will give you a chance to recover at vital moments?
Can't say I saw triples in the 80% range but wouldn't worry too much about what any one else is doing.The event is there to be enjoyed,by whatever chainset necessary

keogh777

emty wrote: »

If you are just trying to survive and get around in one piece,like me , a compact will be fine but maybe if you are trying to set a fast time a triple will give you a chance to recover at vital moments?
Can't say I saw triples in the 80% range but wouldn't worry too much about what any one else is doing.The event is there to be enjoyed,by whatever chainset necessary

cheers emty, yeah i just want to get around it in one piece, not looking to set a time or anything. Just want to expirence those climbs first hand after watching them on the TV since i was a kid

Lumen

emty wrote: »

Can't say I saw triples in the 80% range but wouldn't worry too much about what any one else is doing.The event is there to be enjoyed,by whatever chainset necessary

Maybe Blorg was pushing so hard he was seeing triple.

coat!

IM0

keogh777 wrote: »

just wondering what the people here used - would a 34 X 27 be sufficient ??

the 1st year Id did it I used a 39-25 -BIG mistake

the 2nd year I went compact 34 with a 23 11 (faster than a 53x12!)

the third year I went for a 34 - 25

and the 4th year was on 34 -25 training there b4 race, but changed to a 34 27 was a good move and gave the best avg cadence on the climbs during race.

for a comparison my PB was 7hrs 23min, and alpe d'huez time was 1hr 10/15 depending on where the finish is :pac: and my PB for alpe dhuez is 58min for a TT.

niceonetom wrote: »

I'm planning on doing it next year too -

I'm deffo using an 11t though, those descents deserve it.

you probably wont get a chance to use it propperly though at those speeds you will most likely be tucking in (or should be!)

niceonetom

me@ucd wrote: »

you probably wont get a chance to use it propperly though at those speeds you will most likely be tucking in (or should be!)

I have done most of those descents with 50x12 and I did miss the 11. I was trying to keep up with someone who has more, um, 'natural momentum' though, and we had the roads to ourselves... ah, fun times .

Then again, from what blorg, emty and others have told me, there are so many nervous descenders on the marmotte that getting down can be a bit messy, so top speed is unlikely... I dunno. I want to go FAST!

blorg

I had a 12-27 with my 50-34. There was only one place where I found I was missing out on an 11 and that was a bit of the long Galibier descent once on the main road where the road is straight and descending but not very steeply- there I was trying to stick with a fast group and was finding it difficult.

On the other descents which are bendier and steeper you honestly wouldn't need an 11, gravity took care of speed and the important thing was getting aero and not losing speed in the corners. Braking late and hard into a corner was key, lots of people were sitting on the brakes and I saw more than one pop their tyres as a result.

The descent off the Glandon was quite congested with other riders going too slow but it thinned out later on. I did the Glandon mostly on the wrong side of the road yelling "á gauche" as I passed people.

The descent off the Galibier the problem was not cyclists but motor traffic once past the Col du Lautaret (from there you are on the main road between Grenoble and Briançon and on into Italy.) Generally said traffic was going slower than the cyclists and it was difficult to get around.

No question the 27-28 end is more important than whether you have an 11 or 12.

Barrabus had a 11-28 and appreciated the 28, he said for normal riding though the cassette would be annoying due to the gaps. I think he thought it well suited to the Marmotte though.

ROK ON

niceonetom wrote: »

I have done most of those descents with 50x12 and I did miss the 11.

Come on Tom, you need a big ring.

TinyExplosions

niceonetom wrote: »

I have done most of those descents with 50x12 and I did miss the 11. I was trying to keep up with someone who has more, um, 'natural momentum' though, and we had the roads to ourselves... ah, fun times .

You mean a fatty, and yes, it was fun times... would have gone even faster with an 11 though

niceonetom

I'd like the 28t as insurance but 21 ->24 -> 28 makes it impossible to find yourself in the right gear. In my limited experience of it I constantly found myself either spinning or grinding uncomfortably and wanting to shift up or down, and the regretting it when I did.

The more I think about it the more I am coming to the horrible conclusion that a 53|39|30 + 12t|25t set up is the right one for the Alps. 53x12 would be enough for the way down (though 50x11 is bigger) and 30x25 is almost the same as 34x28 but with much closer spacings.

There is the cost of converting, the weight penalty, and the ignominy to consider though... still can't see myself buying a triple, but I had one already I'd use it.

barrabus

The cassette I have is SRAM Force/Rival OG1070 10 Speed Cassette .
AFAIK it goes 28/26/24 ..

As blorg said great for marmotte / raid ... crap for racing in ireland as the jumps are biggish. I think for racing on the circuits I have raced on 23/11 is the best .

TinyExplosions

niceonetom wrote: »

I'd like the 28t as insurance but 21 ->24 -> 28 makes it impossible to find yourself in the right gear. In my limited experience of it I constantly found myself either spinning or grinding uncomfortably and wanting to shift up or down, and the regretting it when I did.

The more I think about it the more I am coming to the horrible conclusion that a 53|39|30 + 12t|25t set up is the right one for the Alps. 53x12 would be enough for the way down (though 50x11 is bigger) and 30x25 is almost the same as 34x28 but with much closer spacings.

There is the cost of converting, the weight penalty, and the ignominy to consider though... still can't see myself buying a triple, but I had one already I'd use it.

BURN THE HERETIC!

You're dead to me now Tom with that talk of *spit* triples...

niceonetom

barrabus wrote: »

The cassette I have is SRAM Force/Rival OG1070 10 Speed Cassette .
AFAIK it goes 28/26/24 ..

I think it actually goes 28, 25, 22. Fairly gappy. Not as bad as the new ultegra one that goes 28-24-21 though...

There is an Ultegra 6600 junior cassette that goes
16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,25,27

and it wouldn't be hard to swap some of the smaller cogs to make something that goes
11,12,14,16,17,19,21,23,25,27

which would give plenty of options, but would mean no 28...

Anyway, lots of time to obsess yet. Probably better spent climbing though - the reality is I'm probably going to just put it in the lowest gear I've got and sit there and suffer on most of the climbs.

Death before a triple!!

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

the reality is I'm probably going to just put it in the lowest gear I've got and sit there and suffer on most of the climbs.

That is pretty much what I did, there were few opportunities on the climbs where I was thinking, if only my cassette wasn't so gappy, I would like to change into a harder gear.

100RPM on 34-27 would propel you up at 15.8km/h which is more than most could sustain on these things.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

That is pretty much what I did, there were few opportunities on the climbs where I was thinking, if only my cassette wasn't so gappy, I would like to change into a harder gear.

From my many years of experience climbing Alpine mountains and coaching professional cyclists*, I propose that the problem is not one of gappiness, but a lack of crank inertial load.

When you climb a hill you can't spin like you can on the flat, because at a low speed in a low gear the pedals don't push back like they do at high speed in a high gear, so you have a less stable pedalling platform.

This is why sprinting down a slight gradient feels so great.

The solution is to use really heavy rims. Or something.

* this is the internet, I may be exaggerating slightly

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

100RPM

Unlikely - I just can't spin on climbs. 80 would be ambitious tbh. I'm working on cadence though, but it just doesn't feel like an efficient way to climb to me, at least not yet.

@Lumen - yes, I must see if I can find some very heavy wheels for the marmotte. Possibly disks.

ROK ON

The more I read Lumens "training posts" the more I think the man actually has a future as an internet coach/mentor.
Uncannily persuasive. There are enough people out there who want the latest training fad and Lumen is the man to provide it.
You could make a fortune. I am serious on this.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

When you climb a hill you can't spin like you can on the flat, because at a low speed in a low gear the pedals don't push back like they do at high speed in a high gear, so you have a less stable pedalling platform.

When I climb a hill I CAN spin like I do on the flat. The limiting factor for me is generally gearing rather than cadence. YMMV.

niceonetom

I reckon that if Lumen was given the power that coaches have over their athletes he would eventually abuse it. Not out of malice of course, but just for sh1ts and giggles.

The process would be very subtle and incremental. At first, advice would be excellent and would bring results, but as trust accrued his advice would become slightly more eccentric and counter-intuitive, but hey, he's got your wattage up 25% and you can now climb like never before. You'd do whatever he says. The instructions become stranger again. Six months later, without you even realising that you've been had, you find yourself riding a pashley with a zipp on the back and a BMX wheel on the front, and living on a diet of beetroot-juice and chicken skin, and you're paying this guy €400 a month for daily emails. He could do it too.

Grain of salt, ROK, grain of salt. That's all I'll say about Lumen's advice.