Reinkemeier vs De Wolfe

Onsberg

Opinions on 1) the angle shot by Reinkemeier and 2) the mistake by De Wolfe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE

Onsberg

Onsberg wrote: »

Opinions on 1) the angle shot by Reinkemeier and 2) the mistake by De Wolfe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE

Wow, that's disgusting

platypus

Angleshoot pretty disgraceful imo

Onsberg

and finally the bluff-call works!!

Wombatman

What does Reinkemeier do wrong apart from call???????

ghostface ste

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow, that's disgusting

+1

sickpuppy

Horrible fcuker but you should always just show your cards.
Just turn them over if i was Roland id have knocked him out.

Onsberg

Wombatman wrote: »

What does Reinkemeier do wrong apart from call???????

Action is over and he knows he's beat and doesn't throw the hand away in hopes that De Wolfe will do it without showing both cards.

If the german throws away his hand De Wolfe will need to show both cards anyway, so the only reason he is holding on to his cards is to make De Wolfe muck the his hand.

It's clever and maybe a bit "too clever".

Hitman Actual

Wombatman wrote: »

What does Reinkemeier do wrong apart from call???????

Technically- nothing, as far as I can see. That doesn't excuse his actions in the hand though. Despicable fcuking idiot, imo. But DeWolfe should know better than to touch his hand into the muck, even after declaring.

Wombatman

Onsberg wrote: »

Action is over and he knows he's beat.

Why did he call then? Sick read?

He calls so it is up to De Wolfe to show first. De Wolfe doesn't want to give away info. so he mucks.

I feel like I'm missing something?

sickpuppy

Technically he did not break any rules but poker ethics really got a kick in the arse here as well as manners and a sense of fair play.

De wolfe is around a long time and seems like a good skin and of course he should just turn his hand up but after the guys call on the river he has to think hes behind and he held his composure remarkably well.

Moneymaker

Jaysus

Wombatman

sickpuppy wrote: »

Technically he did not break any rules but poker ethics really got a kick in the arse here as well as manners and a sense of fair play.

De wolfe is around a long time and seems like a good skin and of course he should just turn his hand up but after the guys call on the river he has to think hes behind and he held his composure remarkably well.

Not sure about that. De Wolfe clearly mucked and then claimed he didn't.

mdiver

It was very dirty, pushing gamesmanship over the edge, he knew exactly what he was doing. DeWolfe made a massive mistake, but it won't happen to him again. I jusy wonder how many players will see this and try to copy it. It won't be many but it will become common. It is a total lack of eitiquette. I recommend a 6 month worldwide ban.

Hitman Actual

Wombatman wrote: »

Why did he call then? Sick read?

He calls so it is up to De Wolfe to show first. De Wolfe doesn't want to give away info. so he mucks.

I feel like I'm missing something?

Ah come on, there's a lot more to it than that. De Wolfe may have only shown one card, but it was enough for Reinkemeier to know he was beaten. De Wolfe then said a couple of times that he had K-high, yet the tosser still waits for De Wolfe to make the mistake of mucking. Terrible poker etiquette.

Ace2007

Is you man insisting that wolfe shows his 2 cards? and then de wolfe just folds?
or what exactly happens there?

I was always under the impression that if say Tobias wants to see de wolfe cards, that they are still live, but if another playe asks to see them that they first touch the muck (so they are dead) and then are exposed, - fairly sure this is a rule, but i don't speak german so don't have a clue what he said.

Edit: The dealer exposes de wolfe's cards as well which would appear that tobias wanted to see them - therefore they can't be dead.

jaymo888

thats sick never seen anything like that before. yea roland clearly mucked alright and just showed the king of clubs making out he had the flush draw.

Onsberg

Wombatman wrote: »

Why did he call then? Sick read?

He calls so it is up to De Wolfe to show first. De Wolfe doesn't want to give away info. so he mucks.

I feel like I'm missing something?

You are missing the fact that De Wolfe shows (after announcing) a king and thereby have the better hand no matter the second card. Reikemeier is fully aware that De Wolfe holds the winning hand.

bops

the german guy makes a good bluff call and waits for the idiot (who should have figured out that something was up) to fold

germany 1 england 0

Flushdraw

Onsberg wrote: »

Opinions on 1) the angle shot by Reinkemeier and 2) the mistake by De Wolfe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr2agX80ZyE

1) Horrible angleshoot, coupled with the fistpump would make me want to wait for this guy outside and smash his head in.

2) He declares and shows king-high and presumes he's beat. Not wanting to lose any more face, he pushes his cards into the muck. Meh i've done this before.

3) The dealer. This guy is an idiot. Why does he dive on De Wolfe's cards before he pushes then right into muck, and turn them over? If De Wolfe wants to muck, he should have been allowed, but the dealer turning the hand over only added to the problems

strewelpeter

This scumbag was planning the angleshoot from the moment he called IMO

He is not only refusing to turn his hand he is trying and succeeding in gaming DeWolfe into mucking his.

I think the dealer has made a mess of it as he has actively prevented Roland from mucking and turned over his cards, IMO that should keep them live.

This cnut should be blackballed and left outside to play with yer man Poole.

tm2204

strewelpeter wrote: »

This scumbag was planning the angleshoot from the moment he called IMO

He is not only refusing to turn his hand he is trying and succeeding in gaming DeWolfe into mucking his.

I think the dealer has made a mess of it as he has actively prevented Roland from mucking and turned over his cards, IMO that should keep them live.

This cnut should be blackballed and left outside to play with yer man Poole.

I agree with the above. JP/Neil/Stephen/Connie, if you read this how would you rule this one?

corkie123

Onsberg wrote: »

You are missing the fact that De Wolfe shows (after announcing) a king and thereby have the better hand no matter the second card. Reikemeier is fully aware that De Wolfe holds the winning hand.

after showing one card does not mean he wins as i said before u have to show both to win which is what happened .

after showing the king de,wolfe placed both cards under the burned cards then the other player turned over his Q6 at which wolfe and the dealer both went to the mucked cards the td was called over and his ruling was de.wolfe cards were dead and awarded the pot to reikemeier .

i think it was angleshooting by reikemeier but lesson learned by de.wolfe i say no matter what cards u have or how much a fool u might think u be they could still be the best hd show always nu never know

Wreck

strewelpeter wrote: »

This scumbag was planning the angleshoot from the moment he called IMO

He is not only refusing to turn his hand he is trying and succeeding in gaming DeWolfe into mucking his.

I think the dealer has made a mess of it as he has actively prevented Roland from mucking and turned over his cards, IMO that should keep them live.

This cnut should be blackballed and left outside to play with yer man Poole.

de Wolfe's cards clearly touch the muck and are dead, the dealer is right to turn them over as the other dude called and requested to see de Wolfe's hand. Total angle-shoot fromn yer man and well out of order, but he didn't do anything against the laws of the game and comparisons with Poole are a little harsh imo.

corkie123

Wreck wrote: »

de Wolfe's cards clearly touch the muck and are dead, the dealer is right to turn them over as the other dude called and requested to see de Wolfe's hand. Total angle-shoot fromn yer man and well out of order, but he didn't do anything against the laws of the game and comparisons with Poole are a little harsh imo.

sry but your wrong there if reikemeier wanted to see the cards after they were mucked they become live again .
he wanted de.wolfe to muck both of his cards because he could not beat them if both were turned up . which is what happened when de.wolfe placed his cards under the burned cards having only shown the K ONLY .

Mullicker

Respect to De Wolfe for not losing it, even in the interview after he was calm, i would have went nuts. The way the german slammed his cards on the table proud of himself, is so tilting.

eagle eye

I'd have completely lost it when the German slammed his cards on the table. Its a clear angle shoot and it should not be allowed, the fact that Roland showed a king and the German knew he was beat means the German is way out of order imo.

kakak1

corkie123 wrote: »

after showing one card does not mean he wins as i said before u have to show both to win which is what happened .

after showing the king de,wolfe placed both cards under the burned cards then the other player turned over his Q6 at which wolfe and the dealer both went to the mucked cards the td was called over and his ruling was de.wolfe cards were dead and awarded the pot to reikemeier .

i think it was angleshooting by reikemeier but lesson learned by de.wolfe i say no matter what cards u have or how much a fool u might think u be they could still be the best hd show always nu never know

corkie123 wrote: »

sry but your wrong there if reikemeier wanted to see the cards after they were mucked they become live again . he wanted de.wolfe to muck both of his cards because he could not beat them if both were turned up . which is what happened when de.wolfe placed his cards under the burned cards having only shown the K ONLY .

I think you need to look at the clip again. De Wolfe went to place both his cards under the muck, he didn't get 25% there when the dealer forcefully stopped him, grabbed the cards & was turning them over at the same time as the German so there was no question of going back to the muck for the cards.

If De Wolfes cards were turned over & are then live why was he not awarded the pot.

IMO this is one of the worst rulings I have ever seen in poker & I know JP & Kelly & other TD's keep talking about decisions in the "interest of fairness". Well that was not considered in this decision. Cards should talk at all times & De Wolfe clearly turned over the winning card & he should have been awarded the pot as his cards NEVER left his hand when touching the muck.

I think it is despicable for the other player to even consider taking this pot & I don't care what level the're playing at. How does he sleep at night.

mdwexford

Guy is cheating, plain and simple,

If this happened at a table here there would be fcuking war!!!

DeWolfe showed a lot of class in the interview after wishing yer man luck, id be wishing death on his family.

The Improver

De Wolfe showed him K high and if he was paying attention he would have noticed youre man was mucking untill the dealer tried to get de wolfe to turn over both cards, so imo he should have known that his K high was good and should have flipped them both over, also i dont think the dealer should have stopped the cards going into the muck.
Sick angleshoot on both parts.

Whyno

Dirty scummy NAZI.......

The dealer clearly stopped de wolfe pushing his cards in the muck...I`d have clattered the cnut if he done that to me....

Some class shown by de wolfe in fairness...How he doesnt lose the rag i dont know...grrrrrrrrrrrr:mad:

corkie123

kakak1 wrote: »

I think you need to look at the clip again. De Wolfe went to place both his cards under the muck, he didn't get 25% there when the dealer forcefully stopped him, grabbed the cards & was turning them over at the same time as the German so there was no question of going back to the muck for the cards.

If De Wolfes cards were turned over & are then live why was he not awarded the pot.

IMO this is one of the worst rulings I have ever seen in poker & I know JP & Kelly & other TD's keep talking about decisions in the "interest of fairness". Well that was not considered in this decision. Cards should talk at all times & De Wolfe clearly turned over the winning card & he should have been awarded the pot as his cards NEVER left his hand when touching the muck.

I think it is despicable for the other player to even consider taking this pot & I don't care what level the're playing at. How does he sleep at night.

he did place his cards under the burned cards when the dealer stop him and then turned them over but they did hit the muck and the cards were deemed to be dead because they touched the muck which they did .
now as u said jp kelly and others talk about (in the interest of fairness of the game )
i have always quoted this in past posts on the rules treads
now if i was ruling on this at that moment i would have given the pot to de.wolfe .but lesson learned for him i say .

pkaces

bops wrote: »

the german guy makes a good bluff call and waits for the idiot (who should have figured out that something was up) to fold

germany 1 england 0[/QUOTE

bluff call:eek: I would'nt have believed that untill i seen it ... Is anyone able to translate his interview, did he actually think his Q high was good (De Wolfe may have been drawing to a smaller flush or had air) and changed to an angleshoot when he realised he was beat.

The Improver

imo its the dealers fault, for stopping the cards hitting the muck, he nearly did de wolfe a favour if they had not touched the muck.

Ace2007

The Improver wrote: »

imo its the dealers fault, for stopping the cards hitting the muck, he nearly did de wolfe a favour if they had not touched the muck.

but if the other player asked to see the cards, then dealer must show cards without mucking the hand, surely somebody on here did german and understands what was said, there is no other reason for the dealer to show the cards unless asked.

maloney333

In fairness Ive watched this and i first taught wtf scumbag, then i watched it again and watch the interview with Roland at the end. I really think Roland knows that it was his fault. Still the OP is a muppet.

maloney333

Ace2007 wrote: »

bit harsh calling the OP a muppet - he only posted the video, don't think it was him at the table:rolleyes:

lol i meant Tobias.
Here's what he wrote on 2+2 regarding the incident

Hello, I'm the "random EuroDonk" (thx alot for the nice description btw).

Just to give a short explanation of the hand: I had good reasons to believe that de Wolfe was bluffing here a decenct amount of the time and that he would just openmuck his hand in this case even if his bluff beats my hand (like lots of live players do when they have been caught bluffing).

Just to clarify: I did not say at any point that my hand beats Khi and also never insulted Roland or something (I actually think he's a pretty nice guy and we talked about this hand very friendly just 15 minutes later). I only told him to show his second card or I will not show.

Why do you think Roland showed the Kc btw? Definitely not because he though he had any showdown value at all. Imo he showed his hand to pretent to have had a busted flushdraw and/or to make me show my hand. Directly after his river bet, I instantly grabbed the chips out of my stack as if I'd auto call and started a little conversation with him and said that I had a pretty strong hand that I cannot muck (that part has been cut from the vid). So how can de Wolfe possibly think his Khi has any showdown value at all in a big pot like that after he gets called?!

I admit that the fist pump was a bit out of line and apologize for it (even though poker is war not a playground). All the pent-up tension has been released at that moment as I didn't expect him to show a K or a bluff that beats me and I was trying to stay cool to make him muck his hand. I don't think my behaviour was unethical or something though. It would have been smarter not to show my hand and just take the pot because this would have saved me from a lot of trouble.

Regards,

Tobias

gorrrr72

Roland should have showed both cards or instamucked. I hate waiting to see who has the best hand when a call is made. If your called show, just turn them over, simple as that. IMO Roland's past actions opened himself up to being played as he was in this incident. We've all seen him delay showing his hand or instamuck, when he is called. I'm sure Tobias knew this too.

Having said that, Tobias is an uberarrogant fcuker. "Poker is a war" .....ehh no, poker is a game, with rules and etiquette. If poker was a war Roland would have been within his rights shove a bayonet through his heart. It was a disgraceful angleshoot and no amount of explaining will change the fact that he is pushing the boundaries of the rules there.

The dealer should have asked Roland to turn both cards over when the messing started and I can kind of understand his decision to declare Roland's hand dead. Harsh lesson for Roland but it was of his own making.

The Improver

I instantly grabbed the chips out of my stack as if I'd auto call and started a little conversation with him and said that I had a pretty strong hand that I cannot muck .

Shoot the German angleshooter:mad:

Grafter

Interesting (to me at least) that 2+2 appears less critical of the sly move and more critical of Roland than here.

j10spades

I think he has a point, if player a calls player b, player a def wont show til player b shows or (as some people do) he mucks "knowing he's beat" which shouldnt happen at games of those levels

I think it was Rolands fault for putting his cards in the muck but your man knew what he was doing,fine line between a caution/penalty or no action taken against player a,imo def angleshoot for a considerable pot and yeah he prob should get a kick in the balls for the celebration

As someone else said "in the intrest of fairness" and "cards speak" should apply here as Roland showed his best card and that should speak to claim a pot ..some rules in this game are fcuked up but sure we all take advantage of them sometime or another :rolleyes:

super182

as he said in his post if the sole reason e called was tat he hoped de wolfe wud muck he shud have never turned over his q6 n just took in the pot without the fist pump!! in my opinion a very sly human being after seeing the k n still not muckin but worse stil showin a worse hand!! rely rely disgustin ting t do wait for him t muck his cards den show a worse hand in celebration:mad:

Grafter

super182 wrote: »

as he said in his post if the sole reason e called was tat he hoped de wolfe wud muck he shud have never turned over his q6 n just took in the pot without the fist pump!! in my opinion a very sly human being after seeing the k n still not muckin but worse stil showin a worse hand!! rely rely disgustin ting t do wait for him t muck his cards den show a worse hand in celebration:mad:

Parlez vous anglais?

ianmc38

Disgraceful

thenutpeddler

I find this one of most interesting debates in poker since I got into the game.

On the river you are often given a price. The German dude factors into his price the bluff fold and makes the call. In psychology terms his play is so impressive. He knows in his head that if De wolf is on a bluff, a % of the time his hand wins at show down and if not, there is a chance he can fold thinking he is beat.
Once he decides to implement this type of play, should he not see it through till until there are no more options?

I don't like his play but the question remains, after this debate should it be known as a play or an angle shoot?

I hope this gets resolved cause I personally think that it's an unethical angle shoot that has a risk of being accepted our game.

monoP54

kakak1 wrote: »

I think it is despicable for the other player to even consider taking this pot & I don't care what level the're playing at. How does he sleep at night.

"...on top of a large pile of money, with many beautiful ladies."

Seriously though. I'm tending towards the "smashing his face in" camp.

niceguyedddy

pk aces talks rubish!!

the german i think is correct in what he says but dealer did take cards of ROLAND!!

JUST BAD POKER ETICATE either way!
doyle would have something to say!!!

dibs for roland calming down for the interview though!!

CHD

About time De Wolfe ran bad

Tight Ted

I don't get why the German felt he had to show his hand after De Wolf mucked.

Onsberg

Tight Ted wrote: »

I don't get why the German felt he had to show his hand after De Wolf mucked.

AFAIK in order to be able to claim a pot at showdown(i.e. all action is over), you need to show both cards.

Hitman Actual

thenutpeddler wrote: »

I hope this gets resolved cause I personally think that it's an unethical angle shoot that has a risk of being accepted our game.

If anything, something as blatant as what we see here will just make it more likely that it doesn't become a regular occurrence- players will just make sure to show both cards to win the pot. And they won't be so stupid as to push their cards into the muck, like De Wolfe here.

Reinkemeier has just told the whole poker world that this 'play' exists, and effectively killed it at the same time. He'll have to go back to trying to win the old-fashioned way himself, if he has the game for it.