new property tax, it must be a sick joke?

thms.kelly

the newly proposed property rates are an outrage, the people of ireland are suffering enough, yet we are asked to dig even deeper into our already empty pockets for money we do not have, bit by bit we are being forced out of our homes, its hard enough to pay the mortgage on overpriced houses that we had no choice but to buy,we pay large amounts of stamp duty that we had to borrow, and yet we are having to go along with this property tax, I THINK NOT,

we changed the governments decision on water rates once with our consolidarity!! lets force their hands now on this new outrageous property tax and let them know after all its our country

reply to this thread and i will forward it onto our so called government

Diarmuid

thms.kelly wrote: »

overpriced houses that we had no choice but to buy,

really? No choice?

thms.kelly

well we could have rented for silly money , or approached our local authority to see if they could house us??

skelliser

time for revolt

Diarmuid

thms.kelly wrote: »

well we could have rented for silly money , or approached our local authority to see if they could house us??

So you did have a choice, like those of us who did pay "silly money" to rent.

Kinetic^

thms.kelly wrote: »

well we could have rented for silly money , or approached our local authority to see if they could house us??

Nobody held a gun to your head and said buy so stop with that rubbish please. The reason for the property tax is to generate revenue to replace the shortfall from the lack of stamp duty being brought in due to the lower house prices and lower number of sales.

thms.kelly

at the time most of us bought our houses, the monthly payments on a mortgage where still cheaper than rent, the most financially viable option for most was to buy, is there anything wrong with wanting to buy?
im sorry if my post is upsetting the ff fans

Kinetic^

Kinetic^ wrote: »

The reason for the property tax is to generate revenue to replace the shortfall from the lack of stamp duty being brought in due to the lower house prices and lower number of sales.

Shortfall?! Maybe they should stop spending what they dont have and quit coming to us looking for money. The economy wont recover if they keep increasing taxes!

dvpower

thms.kelly wrote: »

at the time most of us bought our houses, the monthly payments on a mortgage where still cheaper than rent, the most financially viable option for most was to buy, is there anything wrong with wanting to buy?
im sorry if my post is upsetting the ff fans

Yes. But remember the advise that was been given out for people to stress test their repayment capacity. What would happen if ECB rates went up a few points? Can you afford your repayments if your circumstances changed (lost a job, had a child ...)?

People completely ignored this advise (and their own common sense). They went and borrowed deposits off their credit cards, included fictional rental income on their mortgage applications... and when things go sour, it wasn't their fault because they were encouraged to buy.:mad:

MysticalRain

thms.kelly wrote: »

at the time most of us bought our houses, the monthly payments on a mortgage where still cheaper than rent, the most financially viable option for most was to buy, is there anything wrong with wanting to buy?

No it wasn't financially sound advice to buy into a property bubble. Whoever told you to buy a house at the height of an artificially inflated property market obviously had a vested interest in egging you on so they could make a quick buck out of people like you. I wasn't gullible enough to buy a house during those times, so I don't have to worry about property taxes now.

im sorry if my post is upsetting the ff fans

I hate the current government as much as anyone. But I really wish people would take more personal responsibility for their decisions and quit offloading the blame onto the government.

thms.kelly

so it would have been better to pay some property investor rent for say 8 years?? at say 1200 a month? when a mortgae was 1000 per month!!that would have been better,
or me and my family could have bought a rather big cardboard box?

dvpower

thms.kelly wrote: »

so it would have been better to pay some property investor rent for say 8 years?? at say 1200 a month? when a mortgae was 1000 per month!!that would have been better,
or me and my family could have bought a rather big cardboard box?

If you bought eight years ago what are you complaining about? That was at the start of the bubble; you'd still be far into positive equity.

mikemac

thms.kelly wrote: »

its hard enough to pay the mortgage on overpriced houses that we had no choice but to buy

Sorry, no sympathy from me

If the house was overpriced and you still bought it then don't moan about it now.

chris85

thms.kelly wrote: »

so it would have been better to pay some property investor rent for say 8 years?? at say 1200 a month? when a mortgae was 1000 per month!!that would have been better,
or me and my family could have bought a rather big cardboard box?

depends when u bought... If i bought a house 2 years ago it may have dropped by €50k since then on an average house, i can assure u rent would be cheaper than that €50k lost money.

People who talk about rent being empty money are misinformed and ill just talk about there negative equity property if bought in last five years.

People are basically paying say a €300k mortgage on a property barely worth probably €240k now. thats wasted money.

This is all for recent buyers in last 4/5 years. older buyers arent affected as much from negative equity.

Diarmuid

thms.kelly wrote: »

so it would have been better to pay some property investor rent for say 8 years?? at say 1200 a month? when a mortgae was 1000 per month!!that would have been better,
or me and my family could have bought a rather big cardboard box?

Sorry but that is BS. At no time in the bubble could the same accommodation that was being rented at €1200 could have been bought for €1000 /month

A mortgage of €350,000 at 5% for 30 years is €1878/month. And that same house would need to earn a rental yield of 4.3% to charge €1200/month. During the bubble rental yields were less than 4%.

I had to sit through 10 years of being told by every Tom Dick and Harry that I had to get on the property ladder, that houses only go up, that rent was dead money, how they were trading up or buying an apartment in Bulgaria, people complaining that we were spending some much trying to "get" Saint Bertie etc... Now all I hear is people screaming blue murder because they were "forced" to buy and are stuck with over priced assets. Well, sorry if I can't share your outrage

chris85

mikemac wrote: »

Sorry, no sympathy from me

If the house was overpriced and you still bought it then don't moan about it now.

+1

if they were overpriced in peoples opinions then it should not have been bought.. should have rented instead for few years and would have been better in terms of equity. a lot of money would have been saved from renting instead of buying

dvpower

Diarmuid wrote: »

Sorry but that is BS. At no time in the bubble could the same accommodation that was being rented at €1200 could have been bought for €1000 /month

Unless this figure was taken from an ad placed by a mortgage broker offering a discounted first year introdutory rate on a 35 year loan... and you didn't bother to read the small print or apply common sense.

Hootanany

Peeps we will have to take to the streets cut the bloated public secter first

merlynthewizard

Diarmuid wrote: »

really? No choice?

Well when you were paying more in rent than what a mortgage would be..

snaps

Hootanany wrote: »

Peeps we will have to take to the streets cut the bloated public secter first

Yes we need to start doing something to get out of this mess. NO to Lisbon again is the 1st step to get this corrupt government out. Take to the streets and protest is another step.

snaps

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Nobody held a gun to your head and said buy so stop with that rubbish please. The reason for the property tax is to generate revenue to replace the shortfall from the lack of stamp duty being brought in due to the lower house prices and lower number of sales.

Why should people that have already paid stamp duty have to fork out on property tax as well? Its not their fault the arse has fallen out of the property market!

Sesshoumaru

merlynthewizard wrote: »

Well when you were paying more in rent than what a mortgage would be..

A mortgage over 35 years? How can you be sure that for every year of all those 35 years you would be paying less on mortgage repayments than you would be on rent?

I wish people would have put a little thought into their purchases. A lot of people who bought in the recent past were getting mortgages over 35 years. That's a bloody long time!!! and for what? 4 walls and a roof?!?!

thms.kelly

we seem to be having two opinions those who have a mortgage and those who dont, to the ones who dont, just be happy in the knowledge that you are not paying a property tax yet!! until you landlords pass it on that is

Diarmuid

merlynthewizard wrote: »

Well when you were paying more in rent than what a mortgage would be..

again. show me the figures.

thms.kelly wrote: »

we seem to be having two opinions those who have a mortgage and those who dont, to the ones who dont, just be happy in the knowledge that you are not paying a property tax yet!! until you landlords pass it on that is

Show us your figures. Nothing to do with opinions, it's just facts.

Diarmuid

snaps wrote: »

NO to Lisbon again is the 1st step to get this corrupt government out.

The most retarded reason to vote NO of all time. Even every credible opposition party agrees.

thms.kelly

what are you talking about figures, do you think your landlord will not pass on the property tax, do you really think it will not be passed on??

Sesshoumaru

thms.kelly wrote: »

what are you talking about figures, do you think your landlord will not pass on the property tax, do you really think it will not be passed on??

Lots of houses for rent, not so many people who want to rent. I think that's why rent has been dropping so dramatically? no?

If the landed class don't want to pay their property tax, they can always sell! sell their second house, third house, fourth house etc etc

ronbyrne2005

snaps wrote: »

Why should people that have already paid stamp duty have to fork out on property tax as well? Its not their fault the arse has fallen out of the property market!

PRoperty buyers didnt really pay stamp duty, the vendor they bought from did through a lower price for his house. Say a person was buying a property for 400k plus 30k stamp duty, if on the day of buying the house the governmnet scrapped stamp duty the price of the house would jump by close to 30k that didnt have to be paid in stamp duty as any underbidder would have more finance and bid up price and this would happen across the market.

When stamp duty is removed the price of house will rise CETERIS PARIBUS. This isnt always clear in a falling market but its reality.

gandalf

The more I think about it the more I think this proposal is in the report as a smokescreen. I honestly do not believe the government will have the balls to go through with a property tax as proposed in the report. It is there to get people all riled up and then for the politicians to say that after consideration they won't implement the tax to make us more placid on those taxes that they are bringing in without them actually making the really hard decisions and reforming Government finances by spending and wasting less taxpayers money.

Diarmuid

thms.kelly wrote: »

what are you talking about figures, do you think your landlord will not pass on the property tax, do you really think it will not be passed on??

you claimed that you could buy a house/apartment cheaper than you could rent during the boom hence you were forced to buy. So what was the price for the house and what were the rents.

hobochris

gandalf wrote: »

The more I think about it the more I think this proposal is in the report as a smokescreen. I honestly do not believe the government will have the balls to go through with a property tax as proposed in the report. It is there to get people all riled up and then for the politicians to say that after consideration they won't implement the tax to make us more placid on those taxes that they are bringing in without them actually making the really hard decisions and reforming Government finances by spending and wasting less taxpayers money.

I think most things this government do are a smoke screen, its a case watch our left hands as our rights ones are taking the money out of your pocket.

Jaysoose

This goverment are experts at diversion, how many times will we believe them when they tell us its raining when in fact they are pissing on our leg.

thms.kelly

springfield tallaght dublin 2004 3 bed semi 200,000 payments over 30 years payment 1100,
rent similar 3 bed semi 1200 tell me this is bs!!

thms.kelly

plus our government , were throwing schemes out there shared ownership schemes, affordable housing, not so affordable now!!
they where the ones egging us on to buy , with no chance of renting in a local authority estate, and boo whoo dont blame our innocent government, you are saying that we where fools for buying we should have known better, no i say our government should have known better.
after all they are the ones we allow to run our country

Jeanious

chris85 wrote: »

People are basically paying say a €300k mortgage on a property barely worth probably €240k now. thats wasted money.

Can i just make the point that buying a house for 300k and it now being worth 240k is not "losing" or "wasting" 60k.

If they had to sell it at that price, then yeah, i understand, but at some point they felt that the house was worth 300k to them, so why has that changed?

Dont get me wrong, if that happened to me id be pi$$ed off, but if ya buy a telly or a computer or somethin for 1000, then next week its on sale for 600, there's one word for it....tough!

I wouldnt be at all pushed for this property tax either, lived in the UK for a while and depending on your circumstances, council tax can be an awful chunk of your wages.

For starters; and i say this as a dole-receiver myself; cut the jaysusin dole by 50 quid off the bat. This should be balanced by the introduction of more reliefs and benefits for people who need them, but an 18 or 20 year old livin at home does not need 200 quid a week. I really cant see why the basic dole should be that much. It should start lower, maybe even 100 quid, and then people should be able to claim extra if they need it/deserve it.

Diarmuid

thms.kelly wrote: »

springfield tallaght dublin 2004 3 bed semi 200,000 payments over 30 years payment 1100,
rent similar 3 bed semi 1200 tell me this is bs!!

Currently in Springfield Tallaght a 3 bed house asking price is around €250,000. To rent in a 3 bed in Springfield Tallaght is €1000. (That's a 4.8% rental yield)

You're telling me that in 2004 the asking price was €200,000 and rental was €1200. (at 4.8% yield a €200k house should rent for €800). Most likely you are not comparing like with like

Sesshoumaru

thms.kelly wrote: »

springfield tallaght dublin 2004 3 bed semi 200,000 payments over 30 years payment 1100,
rent similar 3 bed semi 1200 tell me this is bs!!

Rents go up and down, mortgage repayments go up and down. But rent is something you agree to pay for 6 months or up to 1 year at most in the majority of cases. A mortgage is a loan you take out over 30+ years during Celtic Tiger years.

Don't you think the sheer difference in scale of commitment warranted further thought and research to be given over to the option of renting? After all rent has gone down a lot now. But those on 35 year mortgages are probably still paying the same amount. Also the ECB will probably start putting up interest rates soon.

Sesshoumaru

thms.kelly wrote: »

plus our government , were throwing schemes out there shared ownership schemes, affordable housing, not so affordable now!!
they where the ones egging us on to buy , with no chance of renting in a local authority estate, and boo whoo dont blame our innocent government, you are saying that we where fools for buying we should have known better, no i say our government should have known better.
after all they are the ones we allow to run our country

The government aren't innocent but at some point you have to take responsiblity for your own decisions and actions. I mean do you want the government to run all aspects of your life? Tell you when to buy? tell you when to sell? when to take a dump?

Everyone had a choice, some of us decided to buy buy buy no matter the cost and the rest of us decided not to buy at any cost. Now we all have to live with the consequences of our actions, except of course those of us who didn't buy at any cost. We also have to live with the cost (higher taxes) of the actions of those individuals who chose to buy at any cost :mad:

MrMicra

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I wish people would have put a little thought into their purchases. A lot of people who bought in the recent past were getting mortgages over 35 years. That's a bloody long time!!! and for what? 4 walls and a roof?!?!

Many people bought for what were essentially emotional reasons. They wanted the feeling of ownership and of participation in the property ladder. Terrible decision making.

However any property tax must take account of stamp duty and must be based on the current value rather than the purchase price or the LTEV.

MrMicra

Diarmuid wrote: »

Currently in Springfield Tallaght a 3 bed house asking price is around €250,000. To rent in a 3 bed in Springfield Tallaght is €1000. (That's a 4.8% rental yield)

I own a house in Terenure which I rent out. I am currently getting €1300. I would be very surprised if houses in Springfield (which I know very well) are renting for €1000.
If the state is paying €1000 for houses in Springfield that's an outrage.

Diarmuid

MrMicra wrote: »

However any property tax must take account of stamp duty

Hence the seven year holiday

MrMicra wrote:

I would be very surprised if houses in Springfield (which I know very well) are renting for €1000

Hence my scepticism on the claim of €1200 in 2004.

thms.kelly

springfield got that rent for the location, close to amenities square tallaght hospital etc, what do you want for receipts to be produced, my friend has a second home in jobstown to which he lets even now he is getting 1200 to which the state are paying,

Ludo

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. But remember the advise that was been given out for people to stress test their repayment capacity. What would happen if ECB rates went up a few points? Can you afford your repayments if your circumstances changed (lost a job, had a child ...)?

People completely ignored this advise (and their own common sense). They went and borrowed deposits off their credit cards, included fictional rental income on their mortgage applications... and when things go sour, it wasn't their fault because they were encouraged to buy.:mad:

Going by this stress test, no-one could EVER buy a house as anyone can lose their job. You work with what you know at the time you are thinking of buying and allow for come extras...losing your whole income can not come into the equation.

erictheviking

Diarmuid wrote: »

Hence the seven year holiday


Hence my scepticism on the claim of €1200 in 2004.[/quote]

Proximity to the hospital etc. meant rents were around €1200/ month in Springfield around 2004. (I'm from Tallaght BTW).
I think you will find landlords (especially those milking the SW system haven't dropped their prices too much.Why should they when they don't have to:rolleyes:)
A house there in 2004 was around 200-220K.

Diarmuid

erictheviking wrote: »

Proximity to the hospital etc. meant rents were around €1200/ month in Springfield around 2004. (I'm from Tallaght BTW).

They are still close to the hospitals in 2009. No one is still explaining why yields went from (supposedly) 7.2% in 2004 to 4.8% in 2009. Maybe Springfield, Tallaght is some exception to the rest of the country.:rolleyes:

erictheviking

Diarmuid wrote: »

They are still close to the hospitals in 2009. No one is still explaining why yields went from (supposedly) 7.2% in 2004 to 4.8% in 2009. Maybe Springfield, Tallaght is some exception to the rest of the country.:rolleyes:

I only live there. I'm not an accountant:D

Tech3

thms.kelly wrote: »

its hard enough to pay the mortgage on overpriced houses that we had no choice but to buy

:rolleyes:

Did you not know that property bubbles don't last forever? Oops too late!

ronbyrne2005

Diarmuid wrote: »

Hence the seven year holiday


Hence my scepticism on the claim of €1200 in 2004.

Theres a lot of social welfare recipients in Tallaght and the rent supplement artifically keeps up price of rent in the area as people on social want to live near friends/family. Afamily with kids on social would get more than 1200 in rent supplement. I think rents across country jumped in 2004 after the EU acession states joined too pushing up demand .

thms.kelly

diarmiud simple yes or no do you agree with the proposed property tax, that is the issue at hand,

Diarmuid

thms.kelly wrote: »

diarmiud simple yes or no do you agree with the proposed property tax, that is the issue at hand,

I think it's a fairer system than stamp duty.

Now thms.kelly simple yes or no, do you believe that you were forced into buying your house or you did it out of your own free will?

erictheviking wrote: »

I'm not an accountant:D

So it seems.

MrMicra

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

Theres a lot of social welfare recipients in Tallaght and the rent supplement artifically keeps up price of rent in the area as people on social want to live near friends/family. Afamily with kids on social would get more than 1200 in rent supplement. I think rents across country jumped in 2004 after the EU acession states joined too pushing up demand .

Cut the rent supplement I don't see that private landlords have much choice.