White collar exodus?

optocynic

Listening to Conor Brophy this morning, he highlighted what my wife and I have been considering for several months. The proposed increase in Income tax (i.e. abolishment of the PRSI ceiling) will hit educated, middle class workers hardest. This includes engineers, software developers etc. What is supposed to be the backbone of our future economy.

I would have a much higher standard of living in the US, where I could easily transfere since I work for a multinational, as does my wife. The only reason we stay, is because this is our home.

Can this country really handle a mass exodus of the educated and talented work-force?

Jaysoose

This country is doomed, anybody with a transferrable skill will leave the country at the first oppurtunity when the whole NAMA/new tax regime is finalised and implemented.

I honestly think it is a numbers game now and when people calculate the amount of money they have left after the shower in goverment have taken their pound of flesh and realise that they are screwed they will leave the country.

I know for one that i shall be doing this and wont look back.

wes

Its not something I have personally considered seriously, but it wouldn't be hard for me. Have no Wife or kids, so nothing to stop me really, if things get much worse.

Pull_a_tition

optocynic wrote: »

Can this country really handle a mass exodus of the educated and talented work-force?

Since the foundation of the state Ireland has had an exodus for educated people. The country didn't collapse. People didn't starve, There wasn't riots on the streets.

In fact pre boom, people knew their neighbours.... etc, etc, etc

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

Can this country really handle a mass exodus of the educated and talented work-force?

The nation has had to handle it a number of times over the last few hundred years, the 1980's being the most recent episode.

FlutterinBantam

Hmmm ......... Let's not big up our talents and education too much shall we.

Plenty more people coming up the pipeline who can and will do just as good a job as you.

I understand your angst, but to think any class or coterie of the populace is indispensable is a tad off the mark.

The country won't collapse in a heap if you all leave, no sir it certainly will not.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

The nation has had to handle it a number of times over the last few hundred years, the 1980's being the most recent episode.

Yes, but in fairness workforce didn't have the same level of education. In the 1980's we relied on different sources of employment. In more recent times, much more people are university educated with a higher earning capacity, which in turn yields a higher tax return. Loosing these people will have a worse effect then loosing people of lower income thresholds or people on social welfare.

Jaysoose

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hmmm ......... Let's not big up our talents and education too much shall we.

Plenty more people coming up the pipeline who can and will do just as good a job as you.

I understand your angst, but to think any class or coterie of the populace is indispensable is a tad off the mark.

The country won't collapse in a heap if you all leave, no sir it certainly will not.

Fair point but its possibly more accurate to say that the country is going to collapse in a heap regardless of the people leaving as the people in control of the ship DO NOT HAVE THE FOGGIEST IDEA what they are doing and are still sitting on their hands hoping it sorts itself out.

Possibly the most important piece of legislation in the history of Ireland (NAMA) has not been finalised due to summer hols for the dail, the required cuts in spending/increases in taxes are STILL NOT finalised while this country borrows millions every day to keep the ship going...WHY?

The continuing saga of corruption/abuse of public finances ignored by the powers that be....ETC ETC...

No accountability on any level for any mistakes/mismanagement, if anything they have rewarded themselves with pensions golden handshakes.

I think it matters not a jot if all the IT/Engineer/Doctors/Degree Holders walked onto a boat today as we are screwed NOW and nothing is changing.

Alledgedly the rest of the world is starting to sort itselves out, our leader is still pretending it wasnt their fault and are doing NOTHING but blame a world economic crisis while they sit on their arse talking to Ryan tubridy.

Breathe....breathe....

Galwaybuzz

Totally agree with this , im a graduate, who when i was in college , worked day and night and volunteered to do work experience so that i could move up the ranks in my field of work.

I became very skilled and always had ideas to offer and still have, i got to the top but coundn't go any further because of this recession leading to a jobs freeze!!!

Right now even to this day, i am watching talented men and women leave this country because it has let them down!!!

Young people are the future of this country and how it is shaped . If anything Ireland should be doing more and more to keep these skilled people here in their own country!!!!

Afterall it is these people that will get us out of this mess !!!!

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

The nation has had to handle it a number of times over the last few hundred years, the 1980's being the most recent episode.

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

thebman

Pull_a_tition wrote: »

Since the foundation of the state Ireland has had an exodus for educated people. The country didn't collapse. People didn't starve, There wasn't riots on the streets.

In fact pre boom, people knew their neighbours.... etc, etc, etc

Yeah but the main tax earner back then was mostly farming/fishing and construction.

The government says it wants to depend on software developers etc... and develop a knowledge based economy of research jobs but it is quite obvious taxing them out of the country is a stupid idea if that is your plan.

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people...

That was the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1980s there was massive emigration of graduates.

If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

The state is already in a shambles, created while they were here.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That was the 1950s and 1960s. In the 1980s there was massive emigration of graduates.



The state is already in a shambles, created while they were here.

What's your point?
We should let the guys who didn't even do the leaving cert take over?
A novel idea!..

Do you think the people that took the time, and made the effort to finish school and college should pay for the dossers they shared a class with in secondary school?

dvpower

optocynic wrote: »

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

A mass exodus to where?
UK are in a pretty poor state too at the moment.
USA, Canada, Australia and the other usual places have much stricter immigration policies than they did in the 80s.

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

You'll find you're wrong there. The the high level of education of those going and the effect of the "brain drain" was heavily discussed at the time.

thebman

dvpower wrote: »

A mass exodus to where?
UK are in a pretty poor state too at the moment.
USA, Canada, Australia and the other usual places have much stricter immigration policies than they did in the 80s.

You'll find they'll recover much faster than us though is the problem and although they've been hit, at least they appear to be bottoming out where as we still seem to be in free fall.

As soon as people have somewhere to go they will leave and that time isn't far away.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find you're wrong there. The the high level of education of those going and the effect of the "brain drain" was heavily discussed at the time.

The proportion of the workforce with a third level education in the 80's is nowhere near what it is now. Just because it was discussed as such then, doesn't mean it is the same situation as now.

This graph below will outline this:

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

You'll find you're wrong there. The the high level of education of those going and the effect of the "brain drain" was heavily discussed at the time.

So, you are saying this has happened before? And we are going to let it happen again, nay, make it happen again?

As for the comments on where to move to. I personally have offers from my company to move to their US/Americas operation. I know most are not that lucky, but a software developers job in Bangalor would give a better standard of living than here Ireland, especially after the next budget!!

P. Breathnach

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

Mainly that it is best to get the facts straight. The 1980s is not so far lost in the mists of time that it should be forgotten.

We should let the guys who didn't even do the leaving cert take over?
A novel idea!..

All people have the right to participate in a democratic society.

Do you think the people that took the time, and made the effort to finish school and college should pay for the dossers they shared a class with in secondary school?

Those who got the benefit of higher education have, by that fact, received more from society than those who did not.

I know many people who make a valuable contribution to society. Some have received a third level education, and some have not. I also know many people who seem to me not to make a valuable contribution to society. Some of them have received a third level education, and some have not.

I think you should reconsider your attitude to people who did not receive a higher education.

optocynic

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Mainly that it is best to get the facts straight. The 1980s is not so far lost in the mists of time that it should be forgotten.



All people have the right to participate in a democratic society.



Those who got the benefit of higher education have, by that fact, received more from society than those who did not.

I know many people who make a valuable contribution to society. Some have received a third level education, and some have not. I also know many people who seem to me not to make a valuable contribution to society. Some of them have received a third level education, and some have not.

I think you should reconsider your attitude to people who did not receive a higher education.

I didn't receive a higher education, I earned it! And it wasn't easy. And now that I am working, are you claiming that I am not contributing to society? My last tax payment (raping) says otherwise.

Tell me why I should pay more than a person without third level qualifications!

Nodin

techdiver wrote: »

This graph below will outline this:

In 1979/80 the population was approx 3.4 Million. In 2006 it was 4.24 million. You'd have to show the proportion of those with third level has increased, not just the numbers.

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

I didn't receive a higher education, I earned it! And it wasn't easy. And now that I am working, are you claiming that I am not contributing to society? My last tax payment (raping) says otherwise.

Tell me why I should pay more than a person without third level qualifications!

Because you earn more and besides, you still come out with more.....

thebman

Nodin wrote: »

Because you earn more and besides, you still come out with more.....

He did work to get that though and is already paying more so why should he pay more than the more he is already paying?

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

Because you earn more and besides, you still come out with more.....

And how do you justify that as fair?
I worked hard to earn what I have, why should I pay a disproportionatley higher level of tax than others? You think it is OK for me and others like me to be penalised for success.

It is also very patronising for you to assume that the lower paid/educated should be carried by the middle and upper class. I am not the smartest person in the room, anyone could achieve what I have, it just took effort.

I deserve to come out with more!

dvpower

optocynic wrote: »

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

Do you not remember the 'Hire them before they hire you' campaign?
The government at the time were actively advertising our graduates to foreign based firms, with big billboard adverts in Dublin airport.

Nodin

thebman wrote: »

He did work to get that though and is already paying more so why should he pay more than the more he is already paying?

I iz confussed now.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

In 1979/80 the population was approx 3.4 Million. In 2006 it was 4.24 million. You'd have to show the proportion of those with third level has increased, not just the numbers.

I can't believe that people don't accept that we have a higher level of education now than we had in the 80's. Think of one major factor, which was fees. People from working and middle class backgrounds could not afford third level education in the past as they do now.

http://www.education.ie/admin/servlet/blobservlet/des_educ_trends_chapter05.htm

The above outlines the participation levels.

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

I iz confussed now.

You iz dodgin' the question too!!!

optocynic

dvpower wrote: »

Do you not remember the 'Hire them before they hire you' campaign?
The government at the time were actively advertising our graduates to foreign based firms, with big billboard adverts in Dublin airport.

What's your point?

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

I deserve to come out with more![/font]

You do come out with more, even with your higher tax bracket. I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

I'm actually not aware of a country that doesnt tax in a progressive fashion so if you fancy hopping off to one, you're out of luck.

asdasd

Not like this. The exodus in the 1980s was of uneducated (non-third-level qualified) people... If we are to be competitive, we need to keep and create much more qualified people.

A mass exodus of the white collar workers would leave the state in a shambles.

Even though the rhethoric at the time was that the working classes were bearing the brunt of emigration the reality was that the graduates were. I was a child and I remember uncles leaving. In the late nineties I left. my brother left. Many college friends left. WE could possibly have got jobs in ireland at that time. Most people came back. I did for a while.

The IDA published a famous photo of Irish graduates - the Young Europeans. Advertising the increase in Irish graduates. A few years later some paper tried to look them up, and 50% had left. this was the early nineties . The year of Irelands biggest emigration ( net) was 1992. So even if a smaller amount of people graduated, more left.

As for now - the increase in Irish education has seen an increase in non-technical subjects relative to the entire graduate workforce ( which is in turn related to the IT recession since 2001; that and outsourcing). Most business graduates would be better at home, where they have some networking, and where a certain school means something, which it wont in England ( The English do the same for their schools). I often see adds for graduates with a "good degree from a good school" in England. They mean English universities. English schools matter too. So if you can network in ireland, network in Ireland. This is the case for banking, not IT etc.

Also I think people emigrate to places with higher salaries regardless of the underlying costs, or unemployment in their home countries ( look how few Germans leave).

Please realise that English salaries are waaay lower than Irish salaries, so you are not going to be able to come over here and live like a dog for a while and then buy the place back there.

That wasnt true in the 80's either. Lastly all European taxes are the same, the US is hard to get into, and the UK has to raise taxes to pay for the present spree of using deficit spending to get them over the hump.

techdiver

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

Suppose the difference is here is we are more of a welfare state. We pay more to unemployed, elderly, etc, thus we require a higher contribution from those of us in work to fund this.

We also pay far too much to run our public service which adds to this burden. Change to any of this is pretty much impossible in this country as we are far too unionised and the unions do not have the interest of the nation at the top of their list, rather their members come first (that's their job I suppose). The issue is that the unions while representing a minority of the countries workers, hold far too much power in the decision making process of the government and as such policy is driven by this.

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

What's your point?

Do you not agree that our qualified people would have a higher standard of living in another country? The US for example?

You could have a higher standard of living in Sweden or Denmark...and you'd be paying more tax.

Nodin

techdiver wrote: »

I can't believe that people don't accept that we have a higher level of education now than we had in the 80's. Think of one major factor, which was fees. People from working and middle class backgrounds could not afford third level education in the past as they do now.

http://www.education.ie/admin/servlet/blobservlet/des_educ_trends_chapter05.htm

The above outlines the participation levels.

Thank you, I found the relevant figures. Enrolement in 3rd level would seem to be up to 50% from 20% in the last 20-25 years.

Doesn't change the fact that a large number of that 20% left though.

asdasd

Doesn't change the fact that a large number of that 20% left though.

Qute, he is arguing the opposite of what he thinks is the argument. If we had less graduates, and more of them left, then it was a bigger brain drain than if the same number of graduates were to leave now. So on their bikes.

( That said I suspect that the 20% of graduates were smarter and did tougher degrees than the 50% now? If all was fair they were in the top 20% of IQ, a graduate now is in the top 50% of IQ. Since all is not fair there must be people with IQ's lower than average in University now).

techdiver

asdasd wrote: »

Please realise that English salaries are waaay lower than Irish salaries

This is not true of all sectors. Software development jobs pay more in the UK than they do in Ireland for example, especially in the contracting area.

techdiver

Nodin wrote: »

Thank you, I found the relevant figures. Enrolement in 3rd level would seem to be up to 50% from 20% in the last 20-25 years.

Doesn't change the fact that a large number of that 20% left though.

I'm not disagreeing that they left I'm just saying we have a larger proportion that could now leave also. I hope it is not the case though.

asdasd

Software development jobs pay more in the UK than they do in Ireland for example, especially in the contracting area.

The biggest contracting areas - as in IT for banking - are reserved for the "Good university" boyos, and involve living in London. In the rest of the country a salary of 40K is considered real good.

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

You do come out with more, even with your higher tax bracket. I'm unsure what you're trying to say.

I'm actually not aware of a country that doesnt tax in a progressive fashion so if you fancy hopping off to one, you're out of luck.

Once again, not my point at all. Tax progression is the only way it's going to work, but this attitude that because I earn more, I should pay much more is ridiculous. I pay over 3 times the average in tax.
I do not use ANY public service 3 time more than an average person!

Hence, I am 'sponsoring' 3 times more welfare payments than the average.
Now, since I don't actually get 3 skanger slaves every month to do my bidding (yes, they exist, I live near Clondalkin!!)... I want to know what I get out of my tax payments.

I am happy to pay my share, if it is used in the best interest of me and the country! Are you saying it is?.... Seriously???

techdiver

asdasd wrote: »

Qute, he is arguing the opposite of what he thinks is the argument. If we had less graduates, and more of them left, then it was a bigger brain drain than if the same number of graduates were to leave now. So on their bikes.

( That said I suspect that the 20% of graduates were smarter and did tougher degrees than the 50% now? If all was fair they were in the top 20% of IQ, a graduate now is in the top 50% of IQ. Since all is not fair there must be people with IQ's lower than average in University now).

That's a ridiculous argument. Regardless of how "smarter" you think the grads of the 80's were, the inward investment in this country is highly dependant on the correct skill base being available, (along with the low corporation tax of course). The knock on effects are felt right across the economy.

Grads leave, less tax take, no staff, no investment, lower corporation tax take, lower consumer spending power across economy, etc etc.....

optocynic

asdasd wrote: »

The biggest contracting areas - as in IT for banking - are reserved for the "Good university" boyos, and involve living in London. In the rest of the country a salary of 40K is considered real good.

That is not true. I work in the software area, Telecoms specifically, and there are very high paying jobs all over the UK. I know, because I have been offered them.

Go to the states, and the salaries increase even more... especially when you consider the lower taxes and cost of living.

Your "Good university" boyos is just begrudging, envious nonsense. The last person I hired graduated in Slovakia. I hired him over graduates from the "Good Universities".

techdiver

asdasd wrote: »

The biggest contracting areas - as in IT for banking - are reserved for the "Good university" boyos, and involve living in London. In the rest of the country a salary of 40K is considered real good.

Evidence please.

I work in this area and have had many collegues work in the UK and they were educated here. And also, IT and software development are two completely different areas.

asdasd

the inward investment in this country is highly dependant on the correct skill base being available, (along with the low corporation tax of course). The knock on effects are felt right across the economy.

True, but not mu point. What percentage of graduates are what the multinationals are looking for these days? The number of technical degrees was very high, it must have fallen. People moved to business during the boom. Marketing, accountancy etc. all necessary - but technical degrees are what powers the whole shebang.

In any case what we are saying is that there was a greater percentage exodus of graduates in the 80's, as there were less graduates . You are not arguing the second case so you should cede the first one.

Nodin

optocynic wrote: »

Once again, not my point at all. Tax progression is the only way it's going to work, but this attitude that because I earn more, I should pay much more is ridiculous.!???

Well that is the progressive tax system...

optocynic wrote: »

I pay over 3 times the average in tax.
I do not use ANY public service 3 time more than an average person!

...which means you've loads of money.

optocynic wrote: »

I want to know what I get out of my tax payments.!

Aqueducts, the roads....

Kalashnikov_Kid

OP this is a slightly better attempt at a rational Daily Mail-esque belleagured middle class rant than your last effort. A bit more practice and soon you'll have it down to a tee.

optocynic

asdasd wrote: »

Qute, he is arguing the opposite of what he thinks is the argument. If we had less graduates, and more of them left, then it was a bigger brain drain than if the same number of graduates were to leave now. So on their bikes.

( That said I suspect that the 20% of graduates were smarter and did tougher degrees than the 50% now? If all was fair they were in the top 20% of IQ, a graduate now is in the top 50% of IQ. Since all is not fair there must be people with IQ's lower than average in University now).

Wow... boy did that post make you look like a clown!
The 20% that went to college in the 1980s were the ones that could afford it. There were some right rich plonkers, I think you might agree!!

Now it is points based, not perfect, but a bit better.

asdasd

And also, IT and software development are two completely different areas.

I use it in general terms to mean Software DEvelopment, and everything else. You dont need to argue against me on this. I have worked in the area, and the vast majority of people who worked with me were Public school boys.

And what evidence are you looking for? More public school boys int he city? English wages lower than Irish wages? English Software development wages lower than Irish ones.

Granted the wages levels were the same, or better, here when the pound was at 1.50 euro. but not now.

Noffles

Statistics aside, the country is in a shocking state... educated people leaving isn't going to help and comparing this situation the ****hole Ireland was in the eighties is going to amount to nothing...
I'm in telco engineering while my wife is in fund administration in finance,we're considering our options for the new year as I'm sure many families will be, the harder we are hit by the government... you simply can't take from one group all the time... they will and are going to leave.
Commuting and working longer hours for less money is not going to entice anyone, I don't care how much people want the help the country.

asdasd

Now it is points based, not perfect, but a bit better.

It was always points based. There was always free education for the poorer sectors. Nearly everybody who went to university with me - in the mid-nineties but just before the end of the fees - was from backgrounds where their parents were not graduates. The points system existed then as it does now.

optocynic

Nodin wrote: »

Well that is the progressive tax system...



...which means you've loads of money.



Aqueducts, the roads....

So, do you think I should have to pay even more than I do now?

techdiver

asdasd wrote: »

In any case what we are saying is that there was a greater percentage exodus of graduates in the 80's, as there were less graduates . You are not arguing the second case so you should cede the first one.

Grads make up a larger percentage of the entire workforce now than they did in the 80's so your point about the percentage of grads that left in the 80's is irrelevant to the original question from the OP. Grads as a group didn't have such a strong influence on the economy in the 80's as they do now, as different labour skills were called for in Ireland at the time.