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Compensation for victims of IRA voilence

  • 07-09-2009 8:55am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭


    I was looking in the news the past week or so and see IRA victims looking for compensation from Libya, Libya now saying they will fight it.
    I don't condone innocent lives been taken by anybody, regardless of colour, creed or where they happen to live.
    If Libya are forced to pay victims then shouldn't any country who sell's arm's to anybody, and those arm's are used to kill or injure another person also pay compensation to the victims, seem's fair to me.
    Britain is one of the main sellers of weapons to Africa and other various despots around the globe, shouldn't they also pay compensation?

    The US has already secured compensation totalling $1.5bn for American victims of Libyan-sponsored terror.
    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/ira+victims+demand+libya+compensation/3333697
    That's a bit rich for the biggest seller of destruction on the planet.

    Since 1992, the United States has exported more than $142 billion dollars worth of weaponry to states around the world.URL="http://www.fas.org/asmp/fast_facts_citations.htm#1"][COLOR=#0066cc]1[/COLOR][/URL The U.S. dominates this international arms market, supplying just under half of all arms exports in 2001, roughly two and a half times more than the second and third largest suppliers. [2 ] U.S. weapons sales help outfit non-democratic regimes, soldiers who commit gross human rights abuses against their citizens and citizens of other countries, and forces in unstable regions on the verge of, in the middle of, or recovering from conflict.
    http://www.fas.org/asmp/fast_facts.htm

    http://www.saferworld.org.uk/pressresult.php?id=272&lang=en
    "The Government approved arms exports to 19 of the 20 countries identified as 'countries of concern' in the FCO Human Rights report. It's hard to see how this squares with the messages from the new Foreign Secretary that the UK should be a 'force for good' and that there needs to be better coordination across the FCO and other departments." said Roy Isbister, Team Leader on Arms Transfer Controls, Saferworld.

    http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/7311
    News that Britain may have become the world's largest arms exporter last year has been met by a warning from campaigners that the majority are still being sent to oppressive regimes.


«134

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Thats true uprising. Britain would go bankrupt from the lawsuits of countless nations if this ever came into being.

    Its a can of worms. It will open a flood of claims from the destruction caused by British, French, Russian, Chinese, American arms so for Britain's sake, Libya should resist it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    A much better would be to sue the people who used the semtex.

    There are many of these out there well set up and doing well for themselves.

    A civil action might soften their cough


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-446557/From-Old-Bailey-bomber-Northern-Ireland-minister.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    uprising wrote: »
    That's a bit rich for the biggest seller of destruction on the planet.

    Exactly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    From RTE
    Mr Brown announced that he was setting up a dedicated Foreign Office team to assist the IRA victims.

    The victims will be accompanied by representatives of the British embassy in Tripoli for negotiations with the Libyan authorities
    Which imo, is a poor move. It means that victims of the troubles are not equal.
    What about the victims of Loyalist violence as a result of British agent Brian Nelsen smuggling weapons from South Africa?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 HEAVENANDEARTH


    I think Ireland should sue Britain for their unholy war on the Irish over the last 800 years!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    From RTE
    Which imo, is a poor move. It means that victims of the troubles are not equal.
    What about the victims of Loyalist violence as a result of British agent Brian Nelsen smuggling weapons from South Africa?
    I think Ireland should sue Britain for their unholy war on the Irish over the last 800 years!

    Both good points. What makes one victim 'better' than another? I'm sure that victims from countries that suffered the effects of British and American tyranny won't get the same compensation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 captainblack


    This is great news and I wish all those involved every success. I hope (and indeed suspect) that this is only the beginning. I'd like to see suspected IRA leaders (many of whom have amassed significant wealth) brought before civil courts and stripped of their assets. I'd also like to see SF attacked, as they acted as cheer leaders for The IRA and apparently have substantial assets. Finally, I'd like to see Irish America brought before the courts and forced to pay compensation to The IRA's victims, after all it's pretty obvious they knew where their donations went. Some of these Americans will have very deep pockets indeed.

    All of this will firmly establish where the greatest responsibility for 'the troubles' lies and help to nail Irish Republicanism for today and more importantly for the future.

    Never Again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    This is great news and I wish all those involved every success. I hope (and indeed suspect) that this is only the beginning. I'd like to see suspected IRA leaders (many of whom have amassed significant wealth) brought before civil courts and stripped of their assets. I'd also like to see SF attacked, as they acted as cheer leaders for The IRA and apparently have substantial assets. Finally, I'd like to see Irish America brought before the courts and forced to pay compensation to The IRA's victims, after all it's pretty obvious they knew where their donations went. Some of these Americans will have very deep pockets indeed.

    All of this will firmly establish where the greatest responsibility for 'the troubles' lies and help to nail Irish Republicanism for today and more importantly for the future.

    Never Again.

    Yea great idea, could go hand in hand with victims of the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings, I'm sure there are very deep pockets in the British establishment.

    So the greatest responsibility for the "troubles" lies with the IRA?, I could have sworn the British army shot a few people marching for civil rights one Sunday in Derry, must have been dreaming.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    This is great news and I wish all those involved every success. I hope (and indeed suspect) that this is only the beginning. I'd like to see suspected IRA leaders (many of whom have amassed significant wealth) brought before civil courts and stripped of their assets. I'd also like to see SF attacked, as they acted as cheer leaders for The IRA and apparently have substantial assets. Finally, I'd like to see Irish America brought before the courts and forced to pay compensation to The IRA's victims, after all it's pretty obvious they knew where their donations went. Some of these Americans will have very deep pockets indeed.

    All of this will firmly establish where the greatest responsibility for 'the troubles' lies and help to nail Irish Republicanism for today and more importantly for the future.

    Never Again.
    I don't agree. If you want to establish 'the greatest responsibility', it would have to be on the head of the British government. Why don't we try and get some damn compensation from them? It won't happen though. People will only get compensation when it suits. Will those who lost family and loved ones in the likes of Bloody Sunday receive justice, never mind compensation??

    Again, what makes one victim of violence better than another?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Everybody could attempt sue everyone else into oblivion. The difference here is "Real Politic", Libya and the UK will do a deal as a deal can be done.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I see the trenches have being dug yet again :cool: so I might as well take up my position on the side of "The IRA were a Terrorist organisaton" who did import arms & semtex from Libya/Gadaffi who condoned their actions (ie; Pub bombings, Car Bombs, Bus bombs, Hotel bombings, etc) so on that basis I say that the victims (many without sight or limbs) & the families of the deceased should get compensation from Libya.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Camelot wrote: »
    I see the trenches have being dug yet again :cool: so I might as well take up my position on the side of "The IRA were a Terrorist organisaton" who did import arms & semtex from Libya/Gadaffi who condoned their actions (ie; Pub bombings, Car Bombs, Bus bombs, Hotel bombings, etc) so on that basis I say that the victims (many without sight or limbs) & the families of the deceased should get compensation from Libya.

    And Britain should compensate victims of state violence. And while we are it, lets hit the suppliers(guess who) of arms to Loyalists with lawsuits.

    I'm now going to contact the African Union to inform each member state that they now have a case where British arms were supplied in countless wars there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Oh, this is a wonderful can of worms the Brits are opening.

    So, I take it that victims of loyalists or British military violence can sue the UK as well then?

    Also, how about those Iraqi's? Who the UK invaded looking for imaginary WMD's.

    Maybe the Iranians and other victims of Saddam can sue the UK, as they sold him weapons too.

    Way, I see it, if victims of IRA violence can sue Libya, then people the world over should sue the UK for selling weapons to various despots the world over. I reckon the UK would be bankrupt pretty damn fast.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭uprising


    Camelot wrote: »
    I see the trenches have being dug yet again :cool: so I might as well take up my position on the side of "The IRA were a Terrorist organisaton" who did import arms & semtex from Libya/Gadaffi who condoned their actions (ie; Pub bombings, Car Bombs, Bus bombs, Hotel bombings, etc) so on that basis I say that the victims (many without sight or limbs) & the families of the deceased should get compensation from Libya.

    Yes so you agree that all people who suffered from imported arms/munitions should be entitled to compensation from those who supplied the weapons used and those who used them.
    I think "terrorists" should be categorized by the amount of innocent people killed by them, so some of the biggest terrorists regimes in the world would be governments, I categorize a terrorist as somebody who knowingly kills an innocent person for political or territorial advancement.
    I categorize a person or group who defends their homeland, property, family and countrymen from armed occupation and slaughter as galant freedom fighters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    What really annoys me about this, is that the UK (and some other Western countries) would probably laugh at someone who would make a similar claim against them. Its typical blatant hypocrisy and disregard to the many many other victims, who are in there eyes apparently undeserving of compensation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    The only losers in this scenario are the unfortunate victims.

    The perpetrators and the suppliers should be sued.

    It's a bit rich that there are people sitting down to their meal tonight well funded and well housed and plenty of money in the bank who partook in this carnage, while other innocent victims scrimp and scrape to make ends meet while missing limbs and maybe blind.

    Justice for the victims I say, and punishment for the callous suppliers and perpetrators.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    The only losers in this scenario are the unfortunate victims.
    True.
    Justice for the victims I say, and punishment for the callous suppliers and perpetrators.
    Justice is more than compensation though isn't it. Only if it's across the board is it acceptable, but since double-standards are the rage with powerful governments, that won't happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    I would support anyone in taking a civil action etc., but this does indeed open a Pandora's Box which is better left closed IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    so it is OK for a government to give (not sell, give) tonnes of weapons to a terrorist organisation, to be used against innocent people?

    how many people have the IRA paid compensation to? let me guess.:rolleyes:

    This is all part of a bigger picture, one where Libya gets closer to the international community and it started off with the relase of the Pan Am bomber. However, the Libyan government is responsible for the murder and maiming of innocent people in the UK, so there needs to be some sort of reconcilliation process in order for the government to talk to them. it is just another barrier to cross.

    WTF has the US got to do with this anyway, it is between the british and Libyan government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Buffy the bitch


    the Libyan government is responsible for the murder and maiming of innocent people in the UK


    Yes and the British government are responsible for thousands of deaths here in Ireland, Dublin and Monaghan are good examples not to mention loads of more deaths thanks to the UK government.

    I'd like to think Gaddafi will get some compensation for his son been murdered, some how I doubt that will happen.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Yes and the British government are responsible for thousands of deaths here in Ireland, Dublin and Monaghan are good examples not to mention loads of more deaths thanks to the UK government.

    I'd like to think Gaddafi will get some compensation for his son been murdered, some how I doubt that will happen.

    really, would you be able to give me a list of all the innocent people killed by the british Army, for whom no compensation has been paid. At the same time, maybe youcould tell me how much the Irish government, or the IRA have paid by way of compensation for the thousands of people they killed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Buffy the bitch


    really, would you be able to give me a list of all the innocent people killed by the british Army, for whom no compensation has been paid. At the same time, maybe youcould tell me how much the Irish government, or the IRA have paid by way of compensation for the thousands of people they killed?

    Well Bloody is a good example. Oh but they did compensation you're saying? Yeah that's true but then again 42,000 between the families isn't really a hell of a lot is it when they pay one solider 40,000 to come back and testify. It's great isn't it murder and a man and you might just pay for his funeral.

    By the way the IRA are an illegal army they aren't bound by rules or laws unless you want to make an argument for?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Buffy the bitch


    The British Ministry of Defence has been dipping into the rainy-day funds to compensate victims of British soldiers who ran amok in the Iraqi city of Basra.

    Baha Mousa, a 26-year-old hotel receptionist, suffered appalling injuries inflicted by members of the 1st Battalion, The Queen’s Lancashire Regiment, before they murdered him. General Freddie Viggers was full of remorse and disgusted by their behaviour, as if this was something unheard of in the British army.

    Go into any bookshop in any town and pick a book dealing with history and the British occupation of this country past and present, and it will be littered with criminal acts by trigger-happy yobs in uniform running amok.

    It wasn’t as if they were leaderless. General Mike Jackson, who oversaw the atrocity now known as Bloody Sunday, as recently as last autumn was chief of general staff in Iraq.

    Fair play to Baha Mousa’s family and eight others for pursuing the British government for compensation to the tune of £2.83 million. Maybe Aiden McAnespie or Henry Cunningham’s relatives will also receive justice in the form of monetary compensation, along with all the others.

    http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2008/07/27/story34702.asp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 captainblack



    Yes and the British government are responsible for thousands of deaths here in Ireland, Dublin and Monaghan are good examples not to mention loads of more deaths thanks to the UK government.

    Thousands of deaths in Ireland? Do you have a link for that (or are you including Cromwell?)

    As regards Dublin and Monaghan, The Ulster Volunteer Force claimed sole responsibility for that operation some years ago and were quite adamant in their claims. I know there's been a lot of rumours floating around, but I've not seen anything concrete to prove beyond reasonable doubt that The UK State was involved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    Thousands of deaths in Ireland? Do you have a link for that (or are you including Cromwell?)

    As regards Dublin and Monaghan, The Ulster Volunteer Force claimed sole responsibility for that operation some years ago and were quite adamant in their claims. I know there's been a lot of rumours floating around, but I've not seen anything concrete to prove beyond reasonable doubt that The UK State was involved.
    Collusion, what?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Thousands of deaths in Ireland? Do you have a link for that (or are you including Cromwell?)

    As regards Dublin and Monaghan, The Ulster Volunteer Force claimed sole responsibility for that operation some years ago and were quite adamant in their claims. I know there's been a lot of rumours floating around, but I've not seen anything concrete to prove beyond reasonable doubt that The UK State was involved.

    I'm pretty sure you've be banned 4 times already. But welcome back.

    British security forces colluded with loyalist terrorists on this, and the Miami Showband killings. This is only in dispute in the eyes of loyalist sympathisers.

    "the bombings were part of a pattern of collusion between elements of the security forces in Northern Ireland and loyalist paramilitaries."

    - Captain Frederick John Holroyd, British Army 3 Brigade


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 169 ✭✭Buffy the bitch


    Thousands of deaths in Ireland? Do you have a link for that (or are you including Cromwell?)

    As regards Dublin and Monaghan, The Ulster Volunteer Force claimed sole responsibility for that operation some years ago and were quite adamant in their claims. I know there's been a lot of rumours floating around, but I've not seen anything concrete to prove beyond reasonable doubt that The UK State was involved.
    Barron Report - the detail


    Judge Barron reported that his official Inquiry was obstructed by the British authorities. It found "In investigating allegations of collusion in relation to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, this Inquiry faces all the problems identified by the Stevens Inquiry, with the additional complication that it has no authority or powers within the jurisdiction of Northern Ireland." Then Assistant Commissioner with the Metropolitan (London) Police, John Stevens, required three inquiries, with powers of search, questioning and arrest. His offices within RUCRoyal Ulster Constabulary

    The Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross was the name of the police force in Northern Ireland from 1922 to 2001. It was founded on 1 June 1922 out of the Royal Irish Constabulary , the Belfast Borough Police Force and the Londonderry Borough Police Force ....
    headquarters suffered an arson attack. Stevens noted under "Obstruction of my Enquiries"

    Stevens stated that collusion with loyalist killers by British Army Intelligence and RUC Special Branch had taken place:

    Barron reported, "we refer to the main difficulty in assessing the usefulness to the inquiry of the information" received from the British government. "When three of us met Dr. Reid [then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland] and three of his officials in January 2002, we stressed that we wanted to see original intelligence documents, but we never got them. Of the information we received, some of it consisted of excerpts from an intelligence document, but there was not sufficient information to work out who got what document, whether there were other documents dealing with similar matters and how they were assessed by the people to whom they were addressed."

    The Report (2003) by Justice Barron also criticises the Garda investigation into the bombings. He criticised, in addition, the lack of urgency in pursuing the culprits shown by then Labour-Fine Gael party coalition government in Dublin. Barron noted, "The Government of the day showed little interest in the bombings. When information was given to them suggesting the British authorities had intelligence naming the bombers, this was not followed up." Barron went on to note that similar, though not as extensive information, "was given to the Gardaí by the RUC but there are no records of the Gardaí questioning the RUC as to the names of those so interned, or attempting to ascertain the nature of the intelligence which led to their being detained. And the report says there is also no record of Irish Army intelligence seeking further information from their British counterparts". Barron stated that Department of Justice files on the Dublin bombings were "missing in their entirety" and that no records were provided to Barron by the department. The Garda investigation ended prematurely. Barron found, "there was no single reason why the investigation ended".

    An RUC officer reported by Gardaí to be "an excellent and honest policeman" who would have had good intelligence as to who was responsible for various loyalist bombings, gave evidence to the Inquiry. Barron noted "Given the central position he occupied in the intelligence-gathering network for the Mid-Ulster region, this RUC officer’s interview with the Inquiry was disappointing. He said that the intelligence received by him was generally of a low grade. The Inquiry does not find this credible. This man lived and worked in Portadown, where loyalist paramilitaries lived open lives, largely untouched by the security forces. He himself told the Inquiry that the RUC were free to operate in loyalist areas, and that they knew the names of all the active people. In his meetings with the Inquiry, he made several statements which were shown to be inaccurate or based on assumptions rather than fact".
    Barron on ballistic history


    The Barron Inquiry found a chain of ballistic history linking weapons and killings under the control of a group of UVF and security force members, including RUC Special Patrol Group members John WeirJohn Weir

    Sir John Weir, GCVO, Royal Victorian Chain , MB ChB Glasgow 1907, FFHom 1943, Physician Royal to several twentieth century monarchs.Born in Paisley Renfrewshire Scotland, Dr Weir was to become Physician Royal to George V of the United Kingdom , Edward VIII of the United Kingdom , George VI of the United Kingdom , Elizabeth II of the United...
    and Billy McCaugheyBilly McCaughey

    William "Billy" McCaughey was a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary's Special Patrol Group and the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force in the 1970s....
    , connected to those alleged to have carried out the bombings.

    These "included, in 1975, three murders at Donnelly's bar in Silverbridge, the murders of two men at a fake UDR checkpoint, the murder of IRA man John Francis Green in the Republic, the murders of members of the Miami showband and the murder of Dorothy Trainor in Portadown. In 1976, they included the murders of three members of the Reavey family, and the attack on the Rock Bar in Tassagh."

    According to Fred HolroydFred Holroyd

    Captain Frederick John Holroyd was a British soldier who was based at the British Army's 3 Brigade HQ in mid-Ulster, Northern Ireland during the 1970s....
    , Captain Robert NairacRobert Nairac

    Captain Robert Laurence Nairac George Cross was a British Army officer who was abducted and killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army . He was posthumously awarded the George Cross....
    , acting under SAS orders, was involved in the killing of John Francis Green in the Republic of Ireland and in the Miami Showband killingsMiami Showband killings

    The Miami Showband killings occurred on 31 July 1975 around 2.30 AM near Newry, in South Armagh, Northern Ireland when The Miami Showband musical group, one of Ireland's most popular cabaret bands of the 1970s, comprising both Catholic and Protestant members, were travelling home to Dublin after a Gig at the Castle Ballroom in Banbridge, C...
    . John Weir supported the suggestion of Nairac's involvement in the Green assassination: "I was told that Nairac was with them. I was told by… a UVF man, he was very close to Jackson and operated with him. Jackson told [him] that Nairac was with them." Surviving Miami showband members Steve Travers and Des McAlee testified in court that an Army officer with a crisp English accent oversaw the Miami Showband killingsMiami Showband killings

    The Miami Showband killings occurred on 31 July 1975 around 2.30 AM near Newry, in South Armagh, Northern Ireland when The Miami Showband musical group, one of Ireland's most popular cabaret bands of the 1970s, comprising both Catholic and Protestant members, were travelling home to Dublin after a Gig at the Castle Ballroom in Banbridge, C...
    , the implication being that this was Nairac.
    Fred Holroyd on security force collusion in bombings


    Evidence for British security force involvement in the bombings is also supported by British Army Captain Fred HolroydFred Holroyd

    Captain Frederick John Holroyd was a British soldier who was based at the British Army's 3 Brigade HQ in mid-Ulster, Northern Ireland during the 1970s....
    , who worked for MI6 during the 1970s in Northern Ireland. Holroyd argued that "the bombings were part of a pattern of collusion between elements of the security forces in Northern Ireland and loyalist paramilitaries."

    Barron found that members of the Gardaí and of the RUC attempted to unfairly and unjustly undermine Holroyd's evidence.

    Barron noted that "Some of the RUC officers interviewed by the Inquiry, in their apparent eagerness to deny Holroyd any credibility whatsoever, themselves made inaccurate and misleading statements which have unfortunately tarnished their own credibility."

    Then Assistant Commissioner of the Gardaí, Edmund ('Ned') Garvey was said by Fred Holroyd to have met him and an RUC Officer at Garda headquarters in 1975. Holroyd named Garvey, and another Garda (codenamed, 'the badger'), as being on the "British side". Garvey later denied that the meeting took place. However, Justice Barron found: "The visit by Holroyd to Garda Headquarters unquestionably did take place, notwithstanding former Commissioner Garvey’s inability to recall it". Barron further noted: "On the Northern side, there is conflicting evidence as to how, why and by whom the visit was arranged. Regrettably, Garda investigations have failed to uncover any documentary evidence of the visit, or to identify any of the officers involved in arranging it from the Southern side."

    Edmund Garvey was dismissed by the incoming Fianna Fáil Government on January 19, 1978 without explanation, other than by stating that it no longer had confidence in him as Garda Commissioner.


    Topics Dublin and Monaghan Bombings Topic Home

    The Dublin and Monaghan Bombings on May 17 1974 was a series of car bombCar bomb

    A car bomb is an improvised Bomb placed in a automobile or other vehicle and then vehicle explosion. It is commonly used as a weapon of assassination, terrorism, or guerrilla warfare, to kill the occupants of the vehicle, people near the blast site, or to damage buildings or other property....
    ings in DublinDublin

    Dublin is both the largest city and capital of Republic of Ireland. It is located near the midpoint of Ireland's east coast, at the mouth of the River Liffey and at the centre of the Dublin Region....
    and MonaghanMonaghan

    Monaghan is a town in Republic of Ireland, the administrative capital of County Monaghan. Monaghan's population at the 2006 census stood at 7,811 ....
    in the Republic of IrelandRepublic of Ireland

    Ireland is an Island country in north-western Europe. The modern Sovereignty state occupies about five-sixths of the island of Ireland, which was partitioned by the British on 3 May 1921....
    . The attacks left 33 persons dead and almost 300 injured, the largest number of casualties in any single day in The TroublesThe Troubles

    The Troubles was a period of ethno-political conflict in Northern Ireland which spilled over at various times into England, the Republic of Ireland and Continental Europe....
    .

    The LoyalistUlster loyalism

    Ulster loyalism is a militant Unionism in Ireland ideology held mostly by Protestants in Northern Ireland. Some individuals claim that Ulster loyalists are Working class unionists willing to use violence in order to achieve their aims....
    paramilitary group, the Ulster Volunteer ForceUlster Volunteer Force

    The Ulster Volunteer Force is a Ulster loyalism group in Northern Ireland. The current incarnation was formed in May 1966 as a paramilitary group and named after the Ulster Volunteers of 1912, although there is no direct connection between the two....
    (UVF), claimed responsibility for the bombings in 1993. However, there are widespread allegations that British Intelligence colluded in the bombings, the evidence for which is contested by both the British Government and those accused.

    It is the worst paramilitary attack in terms of fatalities in twentieth-century IrelandIreland

    Ireland is the List of islands by area in Europe, and the twentieth-largest island in the world. It lies to the north-west of continental Europe and is surrounded by hundreds of islands and islet....
    .

    No one has ever been charged with the attacks, which have been described by the OireachtasOireachtas

    The Oireachtas is the "national parliament" or legislature of Republic of Ireland, sometimes referred to as Oireachtas ?ireann.The Oireachtas consists of:...
    Committee on JusticeOireachtas

    The Oireachtas is the "national parliament" or legislature of Republic of Ireland, sometimes referred to as Oireachtas ?ireann.The Oireachtas consists of:...
    as an act of international terrorism colluded in by British Security Forces.

    7:30 on Friday May 17 1974 three car bombs exploded almost simultaneously in Dublin at Parnell Street, Talbot StreetTalbot Street

    Talbot Street is a city-centre street located on Dublin's Northside and is one of the principal shopping streets of Dublin, running from Dublin Connolly railway station and the International Financial Services Centre at Amiens Street in the east to Marlborough Street in the west....
    , and South Leinster Street.

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    Encyclopedia


    The Dublin and Monaghan Bombings on May 17 1974 was a series of car bombCar bomb

    A car bomb is an improvised Bomb placed in a automobile or other vehicle and then vehicle explosion. It is commonly used as a weapon of assassination, terrorism, or guerrilla warfare, to kill the occupants of the vehicle, people near the blast site, or to damage buildings or other property....
    ings in DublinDublin

    Dublin is both the largest city and capital of Republic of Ireland. It is located near the midpoint of Ireland's east coast, at the mouth of the River Liffey and at the centre of the Dublin Region....
    and MonaghanMonaghan

    Monaghan is a town in Republic of Ireland, the administrative capital of County Monaghan. Monaghan's population at the 2006 census stood at 7,811 ....
    in the Republic of IrelandRepublic of Ireland

    Ireland is an Island country in north-western Europe. The modern Sovereignty state occupies about five-sixths of the island of Ireland, which was partitioned by the British on 3 May 1921....
    . The attacks left 33 persons dead and almost 300 injured, the largest number of casualties in any single day in The TroublesThe Troubles

    The Troubles was a period of ethno-political conflict in Northern Ireland which spilled over at various times into England, the Republic of Ireland and Continental Europe....
    .

    The LoyalistUlster loyalism

    Ulster loyalism is a militant Unionism in Ireland ideology held mostly by Protestants in Northern Ireland. Some individuals claim that Ulster loyalists are Working class unionists willing to use violence in order to achieve their aims....
    paramilitary group, the Ulster Volunteer ForceUlster Volunteer Force

    The Ulster Volunteer Force is a Ulster loyalism group in Northern Ireland. The current incarnation was formed in May 1966 as a paramilitary group and named after the Ulster Volunteers of 1912, although there is no direct connection between the two....
    (UVF), claimed responsibility for the bombings in 1993. However, there are widespread allegations that British Intelligence colluded in the bombings, the evidence for which is contested by both the British Government and those accused.

    It is the worst paramilitary attack in terms of fatalities in twentieth-century IrelandIreland

    Ireland is the List of islands by area in Europe, and the twentieth-largest island in the world. It lies to the north-west of continental Europe and is surrounded by hundreds of islands and islet....
    .

    No one has ever been charged with the attacks, which have been described by the OireachtasOireachtas

    The Oireachtas is the "national parliament" or legislature of Republic of Ireland, sometimes referred to as Oireachtas ?ireann.The Oireachtas consists of:...
    Committee on JusticeOireachtas

    The Oireachtas is the "national parliament" or legislature of Republic of Ireland, sometimes referred to as Oireachtas ?ireann.The Oireachtas consists of:...
    as an act of international terrorism colluded in by British Security Forces.

    Chronology

    At 17:30 on Friday May 17 1974 three car bombs exploded almost simultaneously in Dublin at Parnell Street, Talbot StreetTalbot Street

    Talbot Street is a city-centre street located on Dublin's Northside and is one of the principal shopping streets of Dublin, running from Dublin Connolly railway station and the International Financial Services Centre at Amiens Street in the east to Marlborough Street in the west....
    , and South Leinster Street. Twenty-three persons died in these explosions and three others died as a result of injuries over the following few days. Two of the dead were foreign nationals. The first of the three Dublin bombs went off at approximately 17:28 in Parnell Street. Eleven people died as a result of this explosion, including two infants. The second of the Dublin bombs went off at approximately 17:30 in Talbot Street. Fourteen persons died in this explosion. The third bomb went off at approximately 17:32 in South Leinster Street. Two persons were killed in that explosion.

    Ninety minutes later one more car bomb exploded in North Road, in Monaghan townMonaghan

    Monaghan is a town in Republic of Ireland, the administrative capital of County Monaghan. Monaghan's population at the 2006 census stood at 7,811 ....
    , just south of the border with Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland

    conventional_long_name = Northern Ireland|native_name= Tuaisceart ?ireannNorlin Airlann|motto =|image_map = Europe location N-IRL2.png...
    . This bomb killed five people initially, with another two dying in the following weeks. Some accounts give 34 or 35 dead; 34 by including the child of Colette Doherty who was nine months pregnant, and 35 by including the later still-bornStillbirth

    A stillbirth occurs when a fetus which has death in the uterus or during labor or childbirth, while exiting a woman's human body. The term is often used in distinction to live birth or miscarriage....
    child of Edward and Martha O'Neill. Edward was killed, Martha survived.

    In Northern Ireland, Sammy SmythSammy Smyth

    Samuel "Sammy" Smyth was a footballer who played for Liverpool F.C. from 1953 to 1954. Smyth was Liverpool's top scorer during the 1953-54 in English football season, scoring 13 goals in all competitions....
    , then press officer of both the Ulster Defence AssociationUlster Defence Association

    The Ulster Defence Association is a Ulster loyalism paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland. Its main objective has been to reject unification of Ireland, seeking to do so through maintenance of the Act of Union 1800....
    (UDA) and the Ulster Workers CouncilUlster Workers Council

    The Ulster Workers Council was a Ulster loyalism workers' organisation set up in Northern Ireland in 1974 as a more formalised successor to the Loyalist Association of Workers....
    (UWC) Strike Committee, said,
    "I am very happy about the bombings in Dublin. There is a war with the Free State and now we are laughing at them."

    According to a Dublin newspaper, the then British Ambassador to IrelandList of Ambassadors from the United Kingdom to the Republic of Ireland

    The Ambassador from the United Kingdom to Ireland is the United Kingdom's foremost Diplomat in Republic of Ireland and is in charge of the UK's diplomatic mission in Ireland....
    , Sir Arthur Galsworthy, noted immediately after the bombings:
    "the predictable attempt by the IRA to pin the blame on the British (British agents, the SAS, etc) has made no headway at all. ... It is only now that the South has experienced violence that they are reacting in the way that the North has sought for so long."
    The newspaper noted that "despite these feelings of schadenfreudeSchadenfreude

    Schadenfreude is pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others. The word referring to this emotion has been borrowed from German by the English language and is sometimes also used as a loanword by other languages....
    ", Galsworthy continued,
    it would be. .. a psychological mistake for us to rub this point in. .. I think the Irish have taken the point".

    Responsibility for the bombings


    The Ulster Volunteer ForceUlster Volunteer Force

    The Ulster Volunteer Force is a Ulster loyalism group in Northern Ireland. The current incarnation was formed in May 1966 as a paramilitary group and named after the Ulster Volunteers of 1912, although there is no direct connection between the two....
    claimed responsibility for the bombings in 1993, following a TV documentary on the bombings that named the UVF as the perpetrators, and which alleged that elements of British Security Forces were involved in the attack.

    Yorkshire Television documentary


    On July 7, 1993 the BritishUnited Kingdom

    The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom , the UK or Britain,is a sovereign state located off the northwestern coast of continental Europe....
    television stationTelevision station

    A television station is a type of broadcast station that Broadcastings both sound and video to television receiver s in a particular area. Traditionally, TV stations made their broadcasts by sending specially-encoded radio signals over the air, called terrestrial television....
    Yorkshire TelevisionYorkshire Television

    Yorkshire Television is the ITV contractor for the Yorkshire franchise. Up until 1974 this was primarily the three Riding of Yorkshire and associated areas served by the Emley Moor transmitting station television transmitter....
    broadcast, as part of First Tuesday series, the documentaryDocumentary

    A documentary is a creative work of non-fiction, including:* Documentary film, including television* Radio documentary* Documentary photography...
    Hidden Hand: The Forgotten Massacre, a programme on the bombings in co-operation with a number of retired officers in An Garda SíochánaGarda Síochána

    is the police of the Republic of Ireland.The force is headed by the Commissioner who is appointed by the Irish Government. Its headquarters are located in the Phoenix Park in Dublin....
    , the police force of the Republic of Ireland. The programme claimed that the bombings were the work of the Ulster Volunteer Force. It named a number of UVF members whom it said had taken part in the bombings, and who had since been killed during the TroublesThe Troubles

    The Troubles was a period of ethno-political conflict in Northern Ireland which spilled over at various times into England, the Republic of Ireland and Continental Europe....
    . However, 'Hidden hand' also claimed that loyalist paramilitaries were aided by British security force members. Forensic examination seemed to suggest that the Dublin bombs had been built with some sophistication. Garda officers claimed that the UVF had been assisted by elements in British intelligenceMI5

    The Security Service, commonly known as MI5 , is the United Kingdom counter-intelligence and security agency and is part of the intelligence machinery alongside the Secret Intelligence Service , Government Communications Headquarters and the Defence Intelligence Staff ....
    . Subsequently, a number of questions were asked in the Dáil, the parliament of the Republic of Ireland, about responsibility for the massacre. The government ordered the Garda to assess the information in the television programme.

    UVF claim responsibility


    One week later, on July 15, 1993, the Ulster Volunteer Force confirmed responsibility for the bombings, but also denied that they were aided by British security forces.

    The UVF claimed that:
    Relatives seek public inquiry


    In 1996 relatives of the victims of the bombings, Justice for the Forgotten, launched a campaign for a public inquiry. As their name implies, the group stated that they had been 'forgotten' by the Irish state.

    On July 23 1997 the group lobbied the European Parliament. MEPs from many countries supported a call for the release of files related to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. However, on August 27 of that year, an Irish Court declined to order the release of the files.

    In August 1999, Irish Victims Commissioner, John Wilson, reported on the demand for a public inquiry. He proposed a judicial inquiry, held in private.

    In December 1999, the TaoiseachTaoiseach

    The Taoiseach The Taoiseach is appointed by the President of Ireland upon the nomination of D?il ?ireann , and must, while he remains in office, retain the support of a majority in the D?il....
    Bertie AhernBertie Ahern

    Patrick Bartholomew "Bertie" Ahern is an Republic of Ireland politician who served as Taoiseach of Republic of Ireland from 26 June 1997 to 7 May 2008....
    , appointed Mr. Justice Liam Hamilton to undertake a thorough examination of the bombings, in a private inquiry. Justice for the Forgotten agreed to co-operate. The inquiry began work early in 2000. In October 2000 Justice Henry Barron was appointed to succeed Justice Hamilton. Relatives then campaigned for publication of Justice Barron's initial report. It was presented to the Taoiseach on October 29, 2003, and published with five names redacted on December 10, 2003.

    The Irish government demanded that the British government hand over official documents relating to the bombings, that were denied to the Barron Inquiry. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, John Reid, delivered a 16 page letter, but refused to hand over original documentation, claiming security concerns, despite the passage of time. Barron observed, "Correspondence with the Northern Ireland Office undoubtedly produced some useful information; but its value was reduced by the reluctance to make original documents available and the refusal to supply other information on security grounds. While the Inquiry fully understands the position taken by the British Government on these matters, it must be said that the scope of this report is limited as a result." On February 16 2005 The Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights recommended that the Irish Government bring a case before the European Court of Human Rights to force the UK Government to hold a public inquiry into the bombings. In June 2005 the Irish government threatened to bring the British government to the European Court of JusticeEuropean Court of Justice

    The Court of Justice of the European Communities, usually called the European Court of Justice , is the Supreme court of the European Union ....
    , to force the release the files on the bombings.

    It is acknowledged that, after 30 years, many witnesses, initial investigators and suspects are dead.

    Henry Barron reports on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings


    The Barron Report - main findings


    On December 10 2003, Justice Henry Barron's Report on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings was published. It stated:

    The publication of the report caused a sensation in Ireland, as demonstrated by political and media reaction. It is generally agreed that the Report raised more questions than it answered and that it opened up new avenues of inquiry.

    Oireachtas Sub-Committee on collusion


    The Oireachtas Sub-Committee considering Justice Barron's report concluded:

    A subsequent report by Henry Barron into the Miami Showband massacre, the killing of Seamus Ludlow, and the bombing of Keys Tavern found evidence of extensive collusion with the same mainly UVF personnel, amounting to "international terrorism" on the part of British forces.

    McEntee Inquiry


    Following a recommendation from the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights, in its final report on the bombings (March 2004), the Irish Government established a further Commission of Investigation: Dublin and Monaghan Bombings 1974Commission of Investigation: Dublin and Monaghan Bombings 1974

    After publication of Justice Henry Barron's report on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the Irish Government established a follow-on Commission of Investigation: Dublin and Monaghan Bombings 1974 to inquire into certain aspects of the Garda? investigation into the 1974 bombings on May 13 2005 under Patrick MacEntee SC Queen's Counsel as sole...
    in May 2005 under Patrick McEntee. The McEntee Enquiry is tasked to investigate the following:

    The remit of the McEntee Commission was extended on a number of occasions. The report was handed to the Irish government on March 12, 2007. Publication was expected by the end of March 2007 On April 3, 2007, the Irish government announced that the Report would be published on April 4, 2007 at 5pm, after distribution to victims and to the families of those who had been killed by the bombs.

    Barron Report - the detail


    Judge Barron reported that his official Inquiry was obstructed by the British authorities. It found "In investigating allegations of collusion in relation to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, this Inquiry faces all the problems identified by the Stevens Inquiry, with the additional complication that it has no authority or powers within the jurisdiction of Northern Ireland." Then Assistant Commissioner with the Metropolitan (London) Police, John Stevens, required three inquiries, with powers of search, questioning and arrest. His offices within RUCRoyal Ulster Constabulary

    The Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross was the name of the police force in Northern Ireland from 1922 to 2001. It was founded on 1 June 1922 out of the Royal Irish Constabulary , the Belfast Borough Police Force and the Londonderry Borough Police Force ....
    headquarters suffered an arson attack. Stevens noted under "Obstruction of my Enquiries"

    Stevens stated that collusion with loyalist killers by British Army Intelligence and RUC Special Branch had taken place:

    Barron reported, "we refer to the main difficulty in assessing the usefulness to the inquiry of the information" received from the British government. "When three of us met Dr. Reid [then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland] and three of his officials in January 2002, we stressed that we wanted to see original intelligence documents, but we never got them. Of the information we received, some of it consisted of excerpts from an intelligence document, but there was not sufficient information to work out who got what document, whether there were other documents dealing with similar matters and how they were assessed by the people to whom they were addressed."

    The Report (2003) by Justice Barron also criticises the Garda investigation into the bombings. He criticised, in addition, the lack of urgency in pursuing the culprits shown by then Labour-Fine Gael party coalition government in Dublin. Barron noted, "The Government of the day showed little interest in the bombings. When information was given to them suggesting the British authorities had intelligence naming the bombers, this was not followed up." Barron went on to note that similar, though not as extensive information, "was given to the Gardaí by the RUC but there are no records of the Gardaí questioning the RUC as to the names of those so interned, or attempting to ascertain the nature of the intelligence which led to their being detained. And the report says there is also no record of Irish Army intelligence seeking further information from their British counterparts". Barron stated that Department of Justice files on the Dublin bombings were "missing in their entirety" and that no records were provided to Barron by the department. The Garda investigation ended prematurely. Barron found, "there was no single reason why the investigation ended".

    An RUC officer reported by Gardaí to be "an excellent and honest policeman" who would have had good intelligence as to who was responsible for various loyalist bombings, gave evidence to the Inquiry. Barron noted "Given the central position he occupied in the intelligence-gathering network for the Mid-Ulster region, this RUC officer’s interview with the Inquiry was disappointing. He said that the intelligence received by him was generally of a low grade. The Inquiry does not find this credible. This man lived and worked in Portadown, where loyalist paramilitaries lived open lives, largely untouched by the security forces. He himself told the Inquiry that the RUC were free to operate in loyalist areas, and that they knew the names of all the active people. In his meetings with the Inquiry, he made several statements which were shown to be inaccurate or based on assumptions rather than fact".

    Barron on ballistic history


    The Barron Inquiry found a chain of ballistic history linking weapons and killings under the control of a group of UVF and security force members, including RUC Special Patrol Group members John WeirJohn Weir

    Sir John Weir, GCVO, Royal Victorian Chain , MB ChB Glasgow 1907, FFHom 1943, Physician Royal to several twentieth century monarchs.Born in Paisley Renfrewshire Scotland, Dr Weir was to become Physician Royal to George V of the United Kingdom , Edward VIII of the United Kingdom , George VI of the United Kingdom , Elizabeth II of the United...
    and Billy McCaugheyBilly McCaughey

    William "Billy" McCaughey was a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary's Special Patrol Group and the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force in the 1970s....
    , connected to those alleged to have carried out the bombings.

    These "included, in 1975, three murders at Donnelly's bar in Silverbridge, the murders of two men at a fake UDR checkpoint, the murder of IRA man John Francis Green in the Republic, the murders of members of the Miami showband and the murder of Dorothy Trainor in Portadown. In 1976, they included the murders of three members of the Reavey family, and the attack on the Rock Bar in Tassagh."

    According to Fred HolroydFred Holroyd

    Captain Frederick John Holroyd was a British soldier who was based at the British Army's 3 Brigade HQ in mid-Ulster, Northern Ireland during the 1970s....
    , Captain Robert NairacRobert Nairac

    Captain Robert Laurence Nairac George Cross was a British Army officer who was abducted and killed by the Provisional Irish Republican Army . He was posthumously awarded the George Cross....
    , acting under SAS orders, was involved in the killing of John Francis Green in the Republic of Ireland and in the Miami Showband killingsMiami Showband killings

    The Miami Showband killings occurred on 31 July 1975 around 2.30 AM near Newry, in South Armagh, Northern Ireland when The Miami Showband musical group, one of Ireland's most popular cabaret bands of the 1970s, comprising both Catholic and Protestant members, were travelling home to Dublin after a Gig at the Castle Ballroom in Banbridge, C...
    . John Weir supported the suggestion of Nairac's involvement in the Green assassination: "I was told that Nairac was with them. I was told by… a UVF man, he was very close to Jackson and operated with him. Jackson told [him] that Nairac was with them." Surviving Miami showband members Steve Travers and Des McAlee testified in court that an Army officer with a crisp English accent oversaw the Miami Showband killingsMiami Showband killings

    The Miami Showband killings occurred on 31 July 1975 around 2.30 AM near Newry, in South Armagh, Northern Ireland when The Miami Showband musical group, one of Ireland's most popular cabaret bands of the 1970s, comprising both Catholic and Protestant members, were travelling home to Dublin after a Gig at the Castle Ballroom in Banbridge, C...
    , the implication being that this was Nairac.

    Susan McKay summarised Barron on the ballistic history point:

    Robin Jackson, consistently linked with Nairac, was alleged to be involved in this illegal violence (the link was noted contemporaneously in 1975 – see Colin WallaceColin Wallace

    John Colin Wallace is a former United Kingdom soldier and psychological warfare operative who was one of the members of the Clockwork Orange project, which is alleged to have been an attempt to Smear tactic a number of British politics in the early 1970s....
    section below).
    Barron Inquiry treatment of evidence of collusion in bombings


    Colin Wallace on security force collusion in bombings


    Barron noted journalist Robert Fisk's suggestion that the bombings were carried out by militant UVF members opposed to meetings between UVF delegations and the Official and Provisional IRA, which had taken place earlier in 1974: "The Dublin bombings were apparently carried out to show other members of the UVF that, left-wing though it might have become, this did not imply any deals with republicans."

    This view finds independent support in a letter from then British Army intelligence officer Colin Wallace to Tony Stoughton, Chief Information Officer of the British Army Information Service at Lisburn, on August 14 1975.

    In a further letter dated September 30 1975, Wallace revealed that MI5 was trying to create a split in the UVF,

    Barron noted that Wallace's August 14 1975 letter was "strong evidence that the security forces in Northern Ireland had intelligence information which was not shared with the Garda investigation team."

    Wallace also noted that:

    Wallace then noted that investigation into the bombings was closed down with immediate effect a very short time after the bombings.

    As with Fred Holroyd and John Weir, there were unsuccessful attempts to undermine Colin Wallace's credibility and evidence to the Inquiry. Between 1968 and 1975 Wallace had run the main psychological warfare, or 'psyops', department at British Army Headquarters in Lisburn, a task involving "dissemination of information and disinformation". In September 1974 Wallace refused to become involved in attempts by the security services to subvert British government policy. Wallace also discovered that at the Kincora boys home a member of an "extreme loyalist organisation", William McGrath, was involved with others in pedophile abuse. The home was not closed down. Wallace suspected that " the intelligence services were using the information to blackmail the extreme loyalist into helping them". Wallace made known his opposition. Wallace later attempted to expose security force involvement in events such as the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, and attempts by MI5 to undermine "left wing organisations and individuals", including the Prime Minister, Harold Wilson.

    Barron notes that Wallace was then targeted by the same security services he had served. He was forced out of government service on a charge of attempting to pass a restricted document to a journalist, Robert Fisk. In 1980 he was charged with and then convicted of manslaughter. After his release from prison on parole in 1985, Wallace proclaimed his innocence. He later successfully overturned the conviction, which was quashed on 21 July 1996. Wallace was also paid £30,000 pounds sterling compensation (the maximum allowed) for unjust dismissal from government Service. His role within the British Army intelligence service had already been officially, though belatedly, acknowledged in 1990. Wallace was fully vindicated.

    Fred Holroyd on security force collusion in bombings


    Evidence for British security force involvement in the bombings is also supported by British Army Captain Fred HolroydFred Holroyd

    Captain Frederick John Holroyd was a British soldier who was based at the British Army's 3 Brigade HQ in mid-Ulster, Northern Ireland during the 1970s....
    , who worked for MI6 during the 1970s in Northern Ireland. Holroyd argued that "the bombings were part of a pattern of collusion between elements of the security forces in Northern Ireland and loyalist paramilitaries."

    Barron found that members of the Gardaí and of the RUC attempted to unfairly and unjustly undermine Holroyd's evidence.

    Barron noted that "Some of the RUC officers interviewed by the Inquiry, in their apparent eagerness to deny Holroyd any credibility whatsoever, themselves made inaccurate and misleading statements which have unfortunately tarnished their own credibility."

    Then Assistant Commissioner of the Gardaí, Edmund ('Ned') Garvey was said by Fred Holroyd to have met him and an RUC Officer at Garda headquarters in 1975. Holroyd named Garvey, and another Garda (codenamed, 'the badger'), as being on the "British side". Garvey later denied that the meeting took place. However, Justice Barron found: "The visit by Holroyd to Garda Headquarters unquestionably did take place, notwithstanding former Commissioner Garvey’s inability to recall it". Barron further noted: "On the Northern side, there is conflicting evidence as to how, why and by whom the visit was arranged. Regrettably, Garda investigations have failed to uncover any documentary evidence of the visit, or to identify any of the officers involved in arranging it from the Southern side."

    Edmund Garvey was dismissed by the incoming Fianna Fáil Government on January 19, 1978 without explanation, other than by stating that it no longer had confidence in him as Garda Commissioner.
    John Weir on security force collusion in bombings


    The UVF claim of sole responsibility is also undermined by extensive evidence of involvement by British security forces in their paramilitary violence, in particular within UVF structures. RUC and UDR involvement with loyalist paramilitaries is established by admission of some of those involved - see Billy McCaugheyBilly McCaughey

    William "Billy" McCaughey was a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary's Special Patrol Group and the illegal Ulster Volunteer Force in the 1970s....
    . McCaughey, claimed that many local RUC and Ulster Defence Regiment personnel were working with UVF paramilitaries in the Armagh and Mid Ulster area in a way that made membership almost interchangeable - he claimed that his RUC Special Patrol GroupSpecial Patrol Group (RUC)

    Note: the RUC unit should not be confused with the Special Patrol Group of the London Metropolitan Police.The Special Patrol Group in the Royal Ulster Constabulary was a police unit tasked with counter terrorism....
    unit was both exclusively Protestant and "orange" or unionist.

    John Weir, a member of a different, though equally loyalist, RUC Special Patrol Group, On Page 147 of the Barron Report, Weir detailed how "senior officers in the RUC knew of and encouraged connections between RUC officers and loyalist extremists."

    Furthermore

    In his report, Mr Justice Barron commented on John Weir's evidence "The Inquiry agrees with the view of An Garda Siochana that Weir's allegations regarding the Dublin and Monaghan bombings must be treated with the utmost seriousness." The RUC furnished the Gardaí with a report that attempted to undermine Weir's evidence. Barron found this RUC attempt to be highly inaccurate and to lack credibility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    In the Barron report on the Miami Showband killings, one of the survivors was shown a picture of Nairac and he categorically stated that the officer with the "Crisp English Accent" was not him. Funny how things get "Misinterpreted" by the Republican cause.

    This isn't about any of that though, this is about a government that is trying to come back into the international fold being held responsible for giving arms to "An Illegal Army" and the British government's (Albeit pathetic) attempts at getting some sort of compensation for the victims.

    Stil, I don't for one minute expect you to have any sympathy for innocent people killed as part of the glorious struggle, they were only Brits and probably deserved to die didn't they.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    In the Barron report on the Miami Showband killings, one of the survivors was shown a picture of Nairac and he categorically stated that the officer with the "Crisp English Accent" was not him. Funny how things get "Misinterpreted" by the Republican cause.

    But yet Captain Fred Holroyd, a british army captain stated that Nairac was involved. Not to mention that 3 members of the UDR were convicted for their part in the attack. No misinterpretation there. Nothing to do with "Republican cause".
    This isn't about any of that though, this is about a government that is trying to come back into the international fold being held responsible for giving arms to "An Illegal Army"

    Which Britain itself is itself responsible for.

    Stil, I don't for one minute expect you to have any sympathy for innocent people killed as part of the glorious struggle, they were only Brits and probably deserved to die didn't they.

    I do. Who is the "you" you are referring to?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 28 captainblack


    Involvement of individual policemen or soldiers in any particular incident or chain of incidents does not add up to UK state involvement. If a member of The Guarda colludes with a drugs gang in Dublin, it does not prove that The Irish state is colluding with drug gangs.

    For the record, I don't see collusion as a dirty word. I would have no problem if the security forces and/or The UK state had played a role in The Dublin and Monaghan bombings. There was a war on at that time. However, I have yet to see evidence that The UVF was aided substantially in that particular operation. In fact, I would have thought The UVF would have been more than happy to off load the responsibility onto others, if it could have done - especially now.

    As for collusion in general, I'd have liked to have seen far more of it during 'the troubles'. It would ultimately have ensured the saving of innocent lives. Remember, a dead IRA man would have meant a live prospective Protestant victim, and also a live prospective Catholic revenge victim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    But yet Captain Fred Holroyd, a british army captain stated that Nairac was involved. Not to mention that 3 members of the UDR were convicted for their part in the attack. No misinterpretation there. Nothing to do with "Republican cause".

    You mean the man described in the Barron enquiry as a "Walter Mitty type"?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Which Britain itself is itself responsible for.
    no, the bombs, provided by Libya, were placed by members of the IRA, in areas where they were designed to kill civilians. Fair enough if they were used against military or political targets, but personally I don't call Argos a military target.

    dlofnep wrote: »
    I do. Who is the "you" you are referring to?
    to whoever feels it is appropriate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    Involvement of individual policemen or soldiers in any particular incident or chain of incidents does not add up to UK state involvement. If a member of The Guarda colludes with a drugs gang in Dublin, it does not prove that The Irish state is colluding with drug gangs.

    For the record, I don't see collusion as a dirty word. I would have no problem if the security forces and/or The UK state had played a role in The Dublin and Monaghan bombings. There was a war on at that time. However, I have yet to see evidence that The UVF was aided substantially in that particular operation. In fact, I would have thought The UVF would have been more than happy to off load the responsibility onto others, if it could have done - especially now.

    As for collusion in general, I'd have liked to have seen far more of it during 'the troubles'. It would ultimately have ensured the saving of innocent lives. Remember, a dead IRA man would have meant a live prospective Protestant victim, and also a live prospective Catholic revenge victim.
    Your post is madness.

    Collusion is collusion. If an agent of the British government colludes with a terrorist group, surely, the British Government being involved with the terrorist group can be implicated in the same way as other governments are targeted for being involved with the IRA.

    It also appears to heap sole blame for the Troubles on the IRA and no matter how much spin is put on it, it is not the case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    For the record, I don't see collusion as a dirty word. I would have no problem if the security forces and/or The UK state had played a role in The Dublin and Monaghan bombings.

    Hi Futurehope.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    You mean the man described in the Barron enquiry as a "Walter Mitty type"?

    He was good enough for the British government to be a captain in the army, and good enough to be a member of the Mi6 - But once he says the word "Collusion" - he's not a Walter Mitty type, aye?

    The same Baron report might I add, that states that members of security forces had made false statements about him to sully his name, and thus rendering his evidence as less genuine?

    no, the bombs, provided by Libya, were placed by members of the IRA, in areas where they were designed to kill civilians. Fair enough if they were used against military or political targets, but personally I don't call Argos a military target.

    You're missing the point. Britain is just as responsible for supplying weapons to other factions responsible for the deaths of civilians. Even more-so.
    to whoever feels it is appropriate.

    How convenient.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    DoireNod wrote: »
    Your post is madness.

    Collusion is collusion. If an agent of the British government colludes with a terrorist group, surely, the British Government being involved with the terrorist group can be implicated in the same way as other governments are targeted for being involved with the IRA.

    It appears to heap sole blame for the Troubles on the IRA and no matter how much spin is put on it, it is not the case.

    I don't think it is as simple as that.

    Some collusion helped prevent murders by Loyalist groups, by running informers insode those organisations, some collusion was fairly simple and to extent, (I believe) understandable.

    I have heard a tale of an IRA "Player" who was known to have killed a young soldier, being kidnapped, bound and gagged, Fenian written across his forehead and dumped outside a loyalist pub. Is that right? no of course not, is it understandable? If i was a sargeant in the british Army and someone killed an 18 year old in my care, I'd ****ing do it. It was a dirty war and both sides used dirty tactics.

    I think where it starts to great very grey is aorund the UVF/UDR connection. The UDR was full of UVF members and was a soldier in the UDR helping members of the UVF collusion by the British Government? to me it smacks of a dirty regiment that should have been disbanded a long time ago and the proper soldiering left to more regular units. Should the MOD be held accountable? probably, yes, but as I said, it was a dirty war.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    yes, but as I said, it was a dirty war.

    Don't think I ever see you trying to justify the IRA's actions in that manner however in any of your past posts. Just an observation. Carry on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    He was good enough for the British government to be a captain in the army, and good enough to be a member of the Mi6 - But once he says the word "Collusion" - he's not a Walter Mitty type, aye?

    The same Baron report might I add, that states that members of security forces had made false statements about him to sully his name, and thus rendering his evidence as less genuine?
    Good enough until they found someone better, captain Bob Nairac I believe.

    In the Barron report they are very "Wary" of his testimony, although that may be because he does talk about a lot of meetings with the Bardai and the Irish army that the Irish government may not want to be made public knowledge.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    You're missing the point. Britain is just as responsible for supplying weapons to other factions responsible for the deaths of civilians. Even more-so.
    we could spend all day discussing the morality of the arms industry. You can't blame someone for selling a car that is then used in a hit and run, but you can if you know full well that you are selling a car that will be used to intentionally run someone over.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    How convenient.
    FWIW, it wasn't aimed at you, or DoireNod.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Don't think I ever see you trying to justify the IRA's actions in that manner however in any of your past posts. Just an observation. Carry on.

    I don't think you will ever read a post from me where I have said that a military or political target was out of bounds (Feel free to go back and check). What i do consider to be out of bounds are pubs, shopping centres and railway stations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 158 ✭✭warrior00


    uprising wrote: »
    Yes so you agree that all people who suffered from imported arms/munitions should be entitled to compensation from those who supplied the weapons used and those who used them.
    I think "terrorists" should be categorized by the amount of innocent people killed by them, so some of the biggest terrorists regimes in the world would be governments, I categorize a terrorist as somebody who knowingly kills an innocent person for political or territorial advancement.
    I categorize a person or group who defends their homeland, property, family and countrymen from armed occupation and slaughter as galant freedom fighters.



    Couldn't have said it better myself!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Good enough until they found someone better, captain Bob Nairac I believe.

    So you don't find it strange that's he's perfectly suitable for a role within the Mi6, but once it comes to giving evidence that may put the British state in a bad light, he's all of a sudden - a sketchy character? Have a little ponder about it for a minute, with all personal feelings aside and see if you can come to an honest conclusion.

    There is an overwhelming catalog of evidence to show that collusion was a reality.
    we could spend all day discussing the morality of the arms industry. You can't blame someone for selling a car that is then used in a hit and run, but you can if you know full well that you are selling a car that will be used to intentionally run someone over.

    You're really going to lose this debate if you want to continue it further. Although I'll be more than happy to correct you at every corner.

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23702375-details/WORLD:+Britain+sold+arms+to+Sri+Lanka+while+civil+war+raged/article.do

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-how-britain-is-selling-weapons-to-the-most-unstable-places-on-earth-648992.html

    Once again, have a read and a bit of a ponder. I think the honest conclusion you'll come to is that Britain is just as or even more guilty for providing arms to unsuitable recipients.
    FWIW, it wasn't aimed at you, or DoireNod.

    That's fine - I would never brush off the death of a civilian, Irish, British or anyone else for that matter. The IRA is responsible for the deaths of many innocent civilians, and they will need to carry that burden. But at the same point - So is the British security forces, and loyalist terrorists.

    Surely you agree that there is a level of hypocrisy from this whole thing.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,575 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    That much practiced trait but nobody ever wants to admit it is in evidence over this compo thing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So you don't find it strange that's he's perfectly suitable for a role within the Mi6, but once it comes to giving evidence that may put the British state in a bad light, he's all of a sudden - a sketchy character? Have a little ponder about it for a minute, with all personal feelings aside and see if you can come to an honest conclusion.

    There is an overwhelming catalog of evidence to show that collusion was a reality.
    I'm only going by what the Barron report said, it appears to be the gospel when it suits.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    You're really going to lose this debate if you want to continue it further. Although I'll be more than happy to correct you at every corner.

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23702375-details/WORLD:+Britain+sold+arms+to+Sri+Lanka+while+civil+war+raged/article.do

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/revealed-how-britain-is-selling-weapons-to-the-most-unstable-places-on-earth-648992.html

    Once again, have a read and a bit of a ponder. I think the honest conclusion you'll come to is that Britain is just as or even more guilty for providing arms to unsuitable recipients.
    I'm no fan of the arms industry and there are a lot of governments on that list i would rather were not sold arms. Selling weapons to India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan is, i would suggest, a lot different to a government GIVING semtex to a terrorist organisation with the sole intention of using it to kill innocent people.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    That's fine - I would never brush off the death of a civilian, Irish, British or anyone else for that matter. The IRA is responsible for the deaths of many innocent civilians, and they will need to carry that burden. But at the same point - So is the British security forces, and loyalist terrorists.

    Surely you agree that there is a level of hypocrisy from this whole thing.

    i don't disagree with you, but in this instance i believe the government are doing the right thing. Britain released the Lockerbie bomber, who was received in Libya to a hero's welcome, the British government should now be standing up for the rights of its own citizens. read Colin Parry's comments on the whole thing, it is not about money, it is about answering for a past wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I'm only going by what the Barron report said, it appears to be the gospel when it suits.

    I never said the Barron report was gospel - but there is an abundance of evidence to show that collusion was evident in the north. You seem to be looking for any reason to show otherwise. I'm not sure what the issue is with you accepting that collusion was present - there is no onus on you to protect the British Government. Your loyalties are peculiar, but to each their own.
    I'm no fan of the arms industry and there are a lot of governments on that list i would rather were not sold arms. Selling weapons to India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan is, i would suggest, a lot different to a government GIVING semtex to a terrorist organisation with the sole intention of using it to kill innocent people.

    You're spinning. The IRA's sole intention was not to kill innocent people. It was to defend and attack against the British armed forces. More innocent people, MUCH more innocent people died at the hands of those who used British weapons than did at the hands of the IRA. These are indisputable facts.

    i don't disagree with you, but in this instance i believe the government are doing the right thing. Britain released the Lockerbie bomber, who was received in Libya to a hero's welcome, the British government should now be standing up for the rights of its own citizens.

    Which brings me back to my point - should all the people who died at the hands of British forces and loyalist terrorists receive compensation too?
    read Colin Parry's comments on the whole thing, it is not about money, it is about answering for a past wrong.

    I don't dispute that - But the British government have still not answered for their past. You still don't see the hypocrisy?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    I'm no fan of the arms industry and there are a lot of governments on that list i would rather were not sold arms. Selling weapons to India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan is, i would suggest, a lot different to a government GIVING semtex to a terrorist organisation with the sole intention of using it to kill innocent people.

    A victim of the Shankill bomb disagrees with you.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8241191.stm
    A man who lost his wife in an IRA bomb attack in Belfast has said all states who supported acts of terror must be held to account for their actions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭Ciaranpm


    I dont like agreeing with the libyans, bombs guns etc dont kill people, people kill people

    some guy hit me with a merc will i look for compo of the germans i think not


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Ciaranpm wrote: »
    I dont like agreeing with the libyans, bombs guns etc dont kill people, people kill people

    some guy hit me with a merc will i look for compo of the germans i think not

    What if some guy wanted to run you over and someone bought a merc for him knowing he would use it to run you over? In fact, he went looking for that person with the sole intention of giving him the car to hit you with? Would you be pissed off then? Would your family be pissed off with him? What if it was your 4 year old son that was killed instead of you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    gurramok wrote: »
    A victim of the Shankill bomb disagrees with you.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8241191.stm

    Sounds like he is agreeing tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Kalashnikov_Kid


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    From RTE
    Which imo, is a poor move. It means that victims of the troubles are not equal.
    What about the victims of Loyalist violence as a result of British agent Brian Nelsen smuggling weapons from South Africa?

    Was about to post the same.
    This is all part of a bigger picture, one where Libya gets closer to the international community and it started off with the relase of the Pan Am bomber. However, the Libyan government is responsible for the murder and maiming of innocent people in the UK, so there needs to be some sort of reconcilliation process in order for the government to talk to them. it is just another barrier to cross.

    Read above. The apartheid government in South Africa is responsible in providing weapons for the UDA. Cant remember that ever becoming an issue when South Africa came out of economic and diplomatic isolation.

    I therefore want the current South African government to pay compensation to all victims of UDA violence just to bring a bit of balance on things. Do you think that's feasable/reasonable?

    Can of worms, double standards etc. etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    So the victims of IRA bombs don't deserve compensation, is that right?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    So the victims of IRA bombs don't deserve compensation, is that right?

    Sure they do - Do you believe that victims who died at the hands of loyalists and british security forces should be compensated too?

    The issue at hand is the double-standards about who should receive compensation, or have you not been reading the last 4 pages?


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