Advice on Cpu and Ram upgrade

TheDoc

Howdy ho wise elders of the IT world.

I'm looking to upgrade the PC ( again) and this time I need some help in relation to RAM and a CPU.

I've come into some extra cash, and decided to go ahead and get myself a nice config that will be 64bit and run nice on Windows 7 ( which I have sitting here waiting for installation).

I currently run an Intel Pentium Dual core E5200 @2.50ghz
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=376380

Motherboard is an MSI - 7392 P31 or something
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=387433

Current ram is this
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=335298

My GPU is currently an Nvidia 8800gts320mb

My PSU is currently a 500 watt.


So I'm looking into the upgrades. Like I said I'll be wanting this for Windows 7, and I mostly game with World of Warcraft and Arma. WoW is running fine now, but I want it the best it can be, and Arma i want better performance from. Also I just want something a big pacier, and I want to move to windows 7 and 64bit.

My budget is about €300, with the main upgrades needed are 8 gigs of ram, and a cpu. But thats what I'm hear, to find out what sort of upgrades I can get with that budget, and what performance increase can I except.

Regards.

Effluo

Your ram is more than ample for any game going.

FYI Windows 7 is good because it is less resource hungry than Vista so you wouldn't have any problems running it on your current system.

Is that Arma or Arma II that you want to play?

If that's Arma II then a cpu upgrade to a quad-core would be a good idea...

Your gpu is not great...
What resolution is your screen and what model is your psu (exact model)

TheDoc

PSU is a generic make called Mechel or something. It was cheap but has done me proud.

Arma II is what I'm after. And to have WoW outragously smooth.


I run a 26"Telly as my screen at 1280x768,as do I run most of my games at this setting. Cant find the tellies max res tbh.

Effluo

The psu could cause a problem when trying to upgrade all your parts!!!

Arma II is really tough on cpu's and gpu's. It's actually one of the most demanding games going!

There was actually someone else here looking just a few days ago for a system that would play ARMA II at that kind of resolution. He had an i7 system with ddr3 ram and a graphics card which cost about €280 a 4870X2 and it was struggling with the game...
After looking at some tests of the game it ended up that a single 4870 for around €140 performed better in the game than his dual 4870 card!!!

This is because the game is hideously buggy and no matter what you get it will not play brilliantly. However, there are game patches due which are supposed to improve it.

For your €300? I'm really not sure!
Playing Arma II you would gain big benefits with a quad core cpu and a new graphics card. But considering the age of your motherboard and the rubbish psu....

I'm not sure where to go with your 300 euro at all! I'd be inclined to go for a new psu and maybe a ati 4890. Keep in mind that even though you cheaped out on your psu the last time. You've prob spent a lot more on the electricity bill due to it's inefficiency!

The dual-core at 2.5ghz should be "ok" for it and i'd say that your main problem right now is the graphics card! Open to others advice though.

A completely new system wouldn't go astray!

TheDoc

Not being narrow minded or anything, but I dont agree with this whole crap psu lark because its not a brand name.

I'm building computers years, and ive had more trouble with branded products then generic ones.


My psu has been operating fine during the past few years, so i dont see the problem with it.

I'm not building an Arma specific machine, just wouldnt mind if it gave me a helping hand thats all.

Primarily i play wow, and well i just want a little boost wtih arma.

Like i said im going windows 7 so i want a little bit of efficeny.

Was considering an ATI Radeon 4890, 8 gig of Ram, and possibly a new cpu, might even splash out on the quad core.

I'm not being disrespectful of your advice, im just seeing there is so much talk around here of crappy psu brands, when the only trouble ive had is with branded products.

I had an antec psu blow out on me randomly two year ago and fry everything in my pc....

Kinetic^

CPU, PSU & GPU. Over budget by about 70 euro though. You don't need more ram.

TheDoc

Sorry if my last post seemed snappy. I'm just one of those people that sometimes doesnt get certain things.

I find it hard to justify spending 90 euro on something, that I already have.

Is there a way to test out my psu to see how efficent it is, like my system runs at nice tempatures and rarely to never actually crashes, along with it running pretty silent.

The CPU is definitely something I'm consdiering changing. I guess I'm the guy who just wants opinions and options from those currently in the know.

From looking around on GPU's, it seems the ATI series are running a little bit better then Nvidia at the moment, a mate of mine picked up a 4890 from overclockers and hes impressed, but I've always being Nvidia ( the one brand i never got hassle with) but id change if something else was better.

( also I never buy gainward, were always a low cheap end seller, still the case?)

That CPU looks very nice indeed.

I must also point out although my system has 4GB, it does not currently register 4 GB on xp, it registers only 3gb, I think theres something amiss there. Also my board can support up to 1066mhz if I'm not mistaken and I'm only using 800mhz, but an actual test using CPUID, shows it running at a meesely 300mhz. ( hence why i was considering changing them out, and going 8gb since its so cheap these days)

But I'll bow to the greater knowledge, keep it coming guys your really helping me narrow down my options.

Kinetic^

The reason you're only registering 3gb is because the XP you're running is only 32bit. I'm not sure if SP3 addressed that issue but to get your full 4gb you'll need a 64 bit operating system.

I don't see the point in going for a anything but a quad core or you'll be upgrading within a year again and with that you're going to need a good psu. If you can get the exact model number of the PSU we can have a look at it.

Is it the board that's causing it to run so low? Have you tested the ram on another board or your current board with different ram? May seem like a stupid question but is it seated correctly into the board?

oMega_2093

If you're upgrading CPU, MoBo and RAM, keep RAM and buy Q9550 CPU and P5Q Pro MoBo (you can even go for Phenom II CPU and MoBo with AMD chipset, which could be a cheaper option).

For graphics card, HD 4770 offers very slightly lower performance but ridiculous power consumption when compared to GTS 250. If PSU is required, this Corsair VX 550 is one of the best you can buy.

The problem is everything together fairly overpasses your budget, so you can look for P5Q SE and OCZ Stealthstream 500, which is cheaper with no real impact on performance nor quality.

I won't recommend a Q8000 series CPUs nor GTS 250, HD 4830, HD 4850 GPUs.

Kinetic^

I'd be hesitant to pick up a b-grade mobo tbh, particularly as it'll be your main machine. If it was a file server/download box then I'd give it a shot.

Please note that the item should be in working condition and have standard guarantee.

Refurbished Asus Mainboard without accessoiries, not in original box

oMega_2093 wrote: »

I won't recommend a Q8000 series CPUs nor GTS 250, HD 4830, HD 4850 GPUs.

Any reason?

oMega_2093

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Any reason?

Yes.

For GPU, 4830 offers same performance (sometimes lower) than 4770, aprox. But still higher power consumption. 4850 offers very slightly better performance and much more power consumption. It's the same with GTS 250 than with 4850. 4770 offers GREAT performance per watt, not overpassed by any other mentioned graphic card in this thread, and performance is just very slightly lower. Price is lower for 4770 than some other cards mentioned in thread (97€ against 115€ in some cases). You need better PSU with the mentioned cards, HD 4770 can work with a worse PSU.

For CPU, Q9000 series offers a large improvement over Q8000 in some tasks due to larger cache size (4MB Q8000 vs 12 MB Q9450 or higher). Also, they don't have virtualization extensions.

Kinetic^

oMega_2093 wrote: »

For CPU, Q9000 series offers a large improvement over Q8000 in some tasks due to larger cache size (4MB Q8000 vs 12 MB Q9450 or higher). Also, they don't have virtualization extensions.

If money was no object and there was no other upgrades needed then ofc the Q9000 series is the way to go but the user is not in that position. In order to play Arma2 in any way decent on the 26" TV then a quad core plus upgrade of gpu is the way to go. The psu I added in was on condition that his current one was not up to the task.

oMega_2093

Okay, I have to agree with that.

But I'm thinking... why not consider a Phenom II 710 / 720, AMD MoBo and GPU? Tri-core CPU is about 110 € and runs games pretty good. MoBo should be cheaper too.

Effluo

That 4770 would offer an increase in performance but there are two problems!

1: There are no 4770's in stock anywhere!
2: He is playing on (kinda)full hd resolution! Yes the 4770 is a great card when you consider it's capabilities in consideration to how how much power it uses, but for arma II the 4770 would be innsufficient


A 4870 1gb/4890 are options which will actually let him play the game with good frame rates at reasonable settings.

The power consumption of 4890
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/radeon-hd4890_6.html

Power Consumption of 8800gts 320mb
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/msi8800gts-640_6.html

Right....

Well if the op maintains that he has been running his 8800 on that psu for a period and he doesn't "believe" in efficiencies or inefficiencies, well then let him at it.

According to xbitlabs the power consumption difference between a 8800 and 4890 is about 20watts...

If i were the op i would get a 4890 http://www3.hardwareversand.de/_/articledetail.jsp?aid=27299&agid=1004

and this corsair for €60,
http://www3.hardwareversand.de/_/articledetail.jsp?aid=24639&agid=240

TO SAVE MONEY ON THE ENERGY BILL FOR THE REST OF YOUR COMPUTERS LIFE AND THEN THE NEXT COMPUTERS LIFE TOO!!!!!!!!!!!

Kinetic^

oMega_2093 wrote: »

Okay, I have to agree with that.

But I'm thinking... why not consider a Phenom II 710 / 720, AMD MoBo and GPU? Tri-core CPU is about 110 € and runs games pretty good. MoBo should be cheaper too.

The amd + new mobo is going to cost more then the 150 for the quad core I linked to. Then he'll still have to get a gpu and maybe even a PSU depending if his current one can withstand the extra power needed for the gpu and cpu. While I'm sure he can recoup some of the money spent on the cpu & mobo I think it's a wiser bet to stick with his current mobo (if it's pwo and he's tested the ram on something else) and offload the cpu for some extra money towards the psu if needed or maybe even a full copy of windows 7 (64 bit) as the RC he has will start limiting use to 2 hours in March.

TheDoc

ok.

I'm going to have to bow to the greater knowledge here, and assume im making a grave error in the reliability of my PSU.

So my 300 euro budget...

From kinetics list, can get me what looks like a nice quad core, and a really good psu?

Correct?

Seeling my parts taking out might net me some dosh, I'd say the cpu and old gpu and psu will net me 50-70 ( might not be worth it, but it would sell at that gowing by recent adverts trends).

So I can then look to a graphics card, I'm leaning towards the 4890....

So,

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=420765
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=327671
http://www3.hardwareversand.de/_/articledetail.jsp?aid=27299&agid=1004

I'd be looking at a serious boost and upgrade from my current machine, and enough to handle windows 7 and my games?

I could more then happily go over 300, but I dont see the need. I was going to buy a netbook, but instead decided that it would best serve my pc.

Thanks for the great advice so far. I can be anal sometimes in these threads, because i want to make 100% sure im going in the right direction.

I like to make sure the money I'm parting with is a good and serious upgrade from what I'm parting with. Remember, I'm not struggling to run things, I can run arma fine, I just want to make things better, so this isnt 300 euro for another 10 frames per second, I want to go " Wow"

TheDoc

Kinetic^ wrote: »

The amd + new mobo is going to cost more then the 150 for the quad core I linked to. Then he'll still have to get a gpu and maybe even a PSU depending if his current one can withstand the extra power needed for the gpu and cpu. While I'm sure he can recoup some of the money spent on the cpu & mobo I think it's a wiser bet to stick with his current mobo (if it's pwo and he's tested the ram on something else) and offload the cpu for some extra money towards the psu if needed or maybe even a full copy of windows 7 (64 bit) as the RC he has will start limiting use to 2 hours in March.

I have a full licensed copy of Winodws 7( when it arrives) , ( and all windows products) available to me for an undefined period of time ( not illegally either)

Kinetic^

Just make sure it's the 64 bit version.

Effluo

Kinetic^ wrote: »

Just make sure it's the 64 bit version.

good point.

There are many issues with you system Doc.

The fact that you ram says it's running at 300mhz might have something to do with your motherboards limitations. If that is the case then the Q8300 may also not run at 2.5ghz as the fsb on your mobo might also be to lower than 1333Mhz.

Can you tell exactly what model your motherboard is.

The psu that you have linked to doesn't have the necessary connectors for the 4890. the hw 450 does however and is cheaper and should be able to deal with all your components.

TheDoc

Kinetic^ wrote: »

CPU, PSU & GPU. Over budget by about 70 euro though. You don't need more ram.

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=338686

Would that PSU work?

I'm trying to get the best price for stuff, it seems with that PSU and the GPU and the CPU its a €340 total, which is not have bad, if I'm going to get a beefy performance upgrade.

I'm in two minds with grpahics cards though, I'm hearing such good things about the HD4890 range from aTI.

I'm going to have to think on it more ....

Kinetic^

First of all, I wasn't saying that you had an illegal copy, I just presumed it was the RC that you had.


Corsair make very good power supplies. How many hard and optical drives will you be powering? Is there any other components apart from cpu, mobo, ram, gpu, 1 hdd and 1 dvd that you'll be powering?


The 4890 is a good card. It could be worth your while holding off on that part so you can get it.



Before you really go ahead and do anything though you really need to test out your mobo & ram like I suggested above. RAM is cheap enough if it's the problem but if it's the mobo then it's a bigger chunk of your budget. Test it out and see what the problem is and if it's all fine then I'd order the cpu first and see how that goes. Offload your current cpu and get some extra cash towards the gpu and/or psu.

TheDoc

motherboard is this one

http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=387433

From a little programme I have, the motherboard is reading that there is two RAM sticks in the mobo, they are running at 399mhz.

I'll have to test around to see if theres a more sinister problem.

But in an ideal world.

The 450 Corsair PSU(if thats the one with right connectors)
HD4890
The intel cpu kinetic linked.

That looks like a solid upgrade to me, but I guess I'll take a week or so to finalise, make sure,and make sure my Mobo is good enough ( although I'm pretty sure it is,its why i bought it, but you pros can let me know :P )

Kinetic^

Give memtest86 a shot, provided you have a spare cd lying around. I'm not sure if you can run it from a USB stick but some googling will help you on that.

http://www.memtest86.com/

Effluo

Your ram is actually running at 800mhz...

The dram freq. on it is 399/400mhz but you see your ram is ddr2 so you double that figure to get the speed of your ram!

Also the max bus speed of your mobo is also good enough for the q8XXX

That corsair also does not have the necessary connectors.

It's the modular one that you need
http://www.komplett.ie/k/ki.aspx?sku=404889

It comes with a 7 year warranty btw!

Solitaire

If you want to run Arma2 smooth, forget €300. Only time and patches can sort out that mess :mad:

Usually I'd recommend a HD4850 as the absolute limit for 720p resolution. HD4770 would be perfect, but we're not going to see any affordable stock until the end of the month (there are still a few around the place but as they're usually over €120 its a moot point). This means a HD48x0 which means a bigger PSU. A HD4770 would only have required a CX400 or the like. For the 55nm cards you're looking at €70 for a ~550W PSU as the C2Q will also be pretty hungry. For 720p a HD4870 borders on overkill and, to be frank, its just not in the budget.

Even a naff Q8300 will set you back over €130, and a Q9400 is both over €150 and out of stock. If the HD4770 and CX400 were both in stock I'd happily stick a Q9400 in and live with being €5-10 overbudget. But as they aren't and the bigger cards need more 12V power then I'd recommend a Q8300, cheapie HD4850 and a SuperFlower SF550P14P - yes, its a dirt-cheap PSU and the CPU is't the best but its the only way I see of getting this mess within your budget.

Hell, if you have a decent CPU cooler I'm tempted to tell you to live dangerously and get an OEM Q6700. It may be old, but for €150 its a nice piece of kit. Even if the Q9400 was in stock you'd still be nearly €15 overbudget.

IMHO you should sit on your hands until you have a €400 budget. That could get you a HD4890, a decent 550W PSU and a Q6700 or Q9400. But even with ARMA2 a HD4890 is utter overkill until you get a high-res screen...

TheDoc

MY budget could stretch to €400 if I want....

So am I maybe better of just leaving things alone for the moment?

Like I said im I'm not swetting the pc here, I just figured I've got some spare cash, why not throw it into my machine.

Solitaire

Anyone know if there's a benchmark for the patched version at 1280*1024 or lower? HardOCP didn't cover low-res and we all know the early PCGH tests were as borked as can possibly be...

I just can't recommend a HD4890 for a 720p telly. I can't :eek:

Effluo

.........

I'm confused

I'm just looking up at screen resolutions on wikipedia...

Ok... I was of the idea that the ops resolution of 1280×720 was a pretty good one.

.....
I still don't get it. Is hd just as aspect ratio of 16:9? Or does full hd have anything to do with anything?

TheDoc

I cant even find the specs of this telly online

Its a hisense 720p telly 26"

It was on sale in harvey norman, its an Australian low-mid brand.

I have great sharpness for the PC and 720p DVD looks delish.

BTW I'm not even running HDMI, I'm running VGA, was told to go grab a DVI-HDMI convertor and use that, improvement? Its pretty nice as it is, but if it can get better, then great

Thanks for taking the time with me on this guys, I want to go the right way about it.

PogMoThoin

Solitaire wrote: »

Anyone know if there's a benchmark for the patched version at 1280*1024 or lower? HardOCP didn't cover low-res and we all know the early PCGH tests were as borked as can possibly be...

I just can't recommend a HD4890 for a 720p telly. I can't :eek:

Just forget about resolutions where Arma 2 is concerned, dropping my resolution from 1920x1200 to 1280x1024 doesn't give me a whole lot of a gain in fps, its completely cpu limited

Solitaire

You don't need to - the HD standard tells us the maximum resolution will be either 1280*720 or 1280*768 or 1366*768. That's barely around the "Lower Mainstream" class for modern gaming resolutions, and I rarely recommend anything over a HD4830/4770 for that as it generally doesn't increase the perceived quality of the image, i.e. the FPS never really drops much below 60, let alone 30, even on high settings unless the CPU has a hand in it. As we're talking about a game that makes Crysis look stable and well-optimised I'll happily bump it up to a HD4850, which can be OCd quickly and easily to 700/2200MHz anyway, but the idea of using a HD4890 to get playable FPS at 720p makes even my head spin

Oh, and if possible try to OC that CPU if you can, to at least 3GHz if your mobo plays ball. I think I'll say again: ARMA2 likes it MegaHurts!

PogMoThoin

My young fella plays Arma 2 with medium/high settings @ 1280x1024 on the following specs:
2.4GHz Core2Duo, 4GB 800mhz ram and 512MB 8800GT on Windows 7 64bit (RTM).

My point being, don't build a pc to play this game now, the pc capable of maxing this game won't be around for about 2 yrs. This game is epic, You just don't realise whats goin on under the bonnet, serious AI calculations, serious explosion calculations etc, it'll bring any modern enthusiasts pc to its knees.

Solitaire

^ +1. I'm just trying to spec the best sub-€300 kit to modernise the rig's gaming capabilities.

Of course, if you're slowly saving up for a more thorough overhaul then aside from a new graphics card you're not too badly off. If you're willing to overclock the E5200 a bit then ARMA2 will be just a bit less CPU-limited and give you more time to get together war-funds to build a more modern rig. The 8800GTS and off-colour PSU are a bigger issue. Could you give me a detailed break-down on your PSU from the handy table printed on a label on its side?

TheDoc

Arma isnt the reason for this, its just a help I guess.

More I think and read the comments, more I feel like spending the money on a good monitor...

TheDoc

Solitaire wrote: »

^ +1. I'm just trying to spec the best sub-€300 kit to modernise the rig's gaming capabilities.

Of course, if you're slowly saving up for a more thorough overhaul then aside from a new graphics card you're not too badly off. If you're willing to overclock the E5200 a bit then ARMA2 will be just a bit less CPU-limited and give you more time to get together war-funds to build a more modern rig. The 8800GTS and off-colour PSU are a bigger issue. Could you give me a detailed break-down on your PSU from the handy table printed on a label on its side?

I'll open it up tomorrow and give the details, safe to say, after being educated by you folk, its ****ing muck......

Solitaire

Probably, but even then there's degrees of muckiness A rebadged budget HiPro/Delta/Superflower shoud not be much cause for concern, same way a Deer/Raidmax should

TheDoc

In college at the moment I'll open that bad boy tonight ( after a nights drinking which should be fun) I think its called " Michel" it cost me about 30 bucks from ebay.

Like I said before an antec one I had exploded frying everything, needed a psu on the quick and been using this one for last god two years I think.

Kinetic^

Have been running an antec psu for 2 years now with no issues. Sometimes it can be the luck of the draw.

Solitaire

Nope, the older ones were legendary.

CWT were forced by Antec budget cutbacks to install off-brand Fuhjyyu caps in their mid-range PSUs. Not bad-quality caps actually. Only one slight problem with that... Fuhjyyus are only rated for operation up to 50C. And those old CWTs got really, really hot when pushed hard... I think you can guess the end result, it includes the words "like an ammo dump" Only issue was when the appliance-side caps went off they'd surge all the connected components with a wee 1000V spike or thereabouts. Mmm, crispy-fried PC

Antec learned the hard way, CWT refused to work with them and then went on to help (among others) a wee little memory company make an awful big splash in the PSU market. Antec learned its lesson and went to Seasonic to build its mid-range PSUs and kept Enhance doing its lovely high-end Quattros. Then FSP went and made a mess of their low-end PSUs (this time Antec probably wasn't to blame) and they quietly brought in OEM giant Delta to plug all the holes in their range(s). And Antec PSUs then managed to salvage their reputation in style

TheDoc

And typical with current life situations, the money id put aside is required for college, who doubled my fees without telling me, marvellous.

I still want to upgrade, just cant settle on components

I love upgrading...

build

I'm in the same boat. Just forked out 3k on friday to get myself registered for the new term

Solitaire

It just ain't right... at this rate we'll go from being top of the EU league tables straight to the bottom - just like with Internet connections!

As someone who tried to do something worthwhile in college after my job went the way of the economy and then couldn't afford to stay in after the VEC declared me "unwashed peasantry" and conveniently fudged my grant application (from the sheer number of lads in the same boat you have to wonder if this new elitism was "backdoor policy" courtesy of Fianna Failure :mad: ): I feel your pain

[/offtopic]

So what's the revised budget/situation TheDoc? Never did find out about your PSU...