Dublin Bus Driver Salaries.

DWCommuter

Dublin Bus drivers are the 6th best paid drivers in the world, earning an average of €33,000 per annum and earn about 30% more than their counterparts in London.

This is according to the prices and earnings report published by Swiss bank UBS.

No link yet. Quoting from Newspaper article. Personally, Im not surprised. Without trying to cause warfare, any comment?

spareman

Im a bus driver, married with 4 child dependants, How much would I get on job seekers allowance? family income supplement? medical card? back to school allowance? fuel allowance?

I dont get any overtime any more so depend on the basic wage, minus taxes, levies etc. Maybe Im better off staying in bed?

How much extra income do I actually have in my pocket for taking abuse all day long, and getting out of bed in the middle of the night to go to work?

Tech3

DWCommuter wrote: »

Dublin Bus drivers are the 6th best paid drivers in the world, earning an average of €33,000 per annum and earn about 30% more than their counterparts in London.

This is according to the prices and earnings report published by Swiss bank UBS.

No link yet. Quoting from Newspaper article. Personally, Im not surprised. Without trying to cause warfare, any comment?

This is the same with every other job you would compare with in Ireland to the U.K. We are over payed in every sector I wouldn't single out a bus driver.

Jo King

I think these international wage and salary comparisons are meaningless. They ignore the different cost of living, the different career structures in different countries, different social security entitlements etc. Comparisons are only useful if there is a possibility a person might move from one country to another. This might be the case in some occupations but hardly in the case of bus drivers.
The only true comparison is what people of similar skills earn in Ireland. What do hgv drivers earn? What is the level of turnover among bus drivers? Do people fight to get the job and then cling on for dear life or do people do it for a few years and leave? these are the questions to ask in order to determine if bus drivers are over or under paid.

Zoney

It's pointless to single out bus drivers. Our wages are across the board higher than elsewhere, and it's not as simple as simply cutting them as our costs are higher across the board (and *not* just from high wages - the country is held to ransom by those who import goods, and individuals pay a lot for government services because we won't pay enough collectively).

Time Magazine

spareman wrote: »

Im a bus driver, married with 4 child dependants, How much would I get on job seekers allowance? family income supplement? medical card? back to school allowance? fuel allowance?

I dont get any overtime any more so depend on the basic wage, minus taxes, levies etc. Maybe Im better off staying in bed?

I was expecting the thread to turn like that, but I didn't expect it in the second post.

Spareman, perhaps social welfare payments are too generous. Similarly perhaps bus drivers are paid a little bit too much.

Is that such a controversial topic for a thread to be discussed without resorting to anecdotes and emotive logic?

AlekSmart

It`s not too long ago that we were reading exotic articles which placed Dublin at around about 6th most expensive Capital City in the Western World in which to live so perhaps it`s more Economists we need on this thread than BusDrivers.... :rolleyes:

Remember too all those surveys so beloved of the Irish Print Media Property Columns which revelled in our huge Premia being requested and paid for Commercial Property.....:rolleyes:

It's pointless to single out bus drivers. Our wages are across the board higher than elsewhere, and it's not as simple as simply cutting them as our costs are higher across the board

I don`t know if Zoney is an Economist or not but he appears to have a good grasp of reality which,sadly,many Economists have been shown to lack....in spite of them being the 9th best paid in the World

Bus Driving in the CIE group was always viewed as the preserve of the educationally challenged or those of true uninhibited genius...over the years I have worked with both and can still today count several Teachers,Lecturers and other "professionals" amongst my colleagues.

Oddly enough I`m unsure if we have any Economists on board....:rolleyes:

Time Magazine

Aside from three eyerolling smileys, an undercurrent of insults and a sprinkle of things you seem not to understand, have you anything constructive to add?

L1011

tech2 wrote: »

This is the same with every other job you would compare with in Ireland to the U.K. We are over payed in every sector I wouldn't single out a bus driver.

Indeed. I'd consider myself horrifically underpaid for what I do (compared to my colleagues I am - being last in, and getting in during a recession, sucks terribly...) - but I was offered about 20% less to do the exact same job in the UK - although covering less % of the UK than I do of Ireland! And the firm offering it considering it as being a very competitive offer...

Quatre Mains

spareman wrote: »

How much extra income do I actually have in my pocket for taking abuse all day long, and getting out of bed in the middle of the night to go to work?

Ans = not a lot, spareman. Like many others. Roll on the budget when benefits get slashed, cits wrong that working families should only be on the same cash as those on welfare. When we were kids the families on our road who weren;t working were poorer than the others, thats often not the case anymore.

murphaph

I'd agree that bus drivers in Ireland are over paid. But everyone in Ireland is overpaid including those in receipt of social welfare payments. They are overpaid because the state cannot afford to pay them that much, regardless of the cost of living. The simple fact is that the irish standard of living is too high for what the country actually contributes to the world (think hard, how many IRISH companies (apart from some good food companies) actually design or make useful stuff for the rest of humanity? A Spar shop on every corner does not an economy make.

Everyone in Ireland better get used to living within the means of a country that is too expensive to manufacture in (like say China) and hasn't got the creative ability or simple gumption to just start designing quality products and services that the world wants (like say, Sweden, Finland etc.). Ireland had the 'advantage' of cheap labour within the EU until the EU expanded to encompass even cheaper labour forces. Now Ireland is an island in the north Atlantic with little to offer unless the irish people first and foremost catch a grip on reality and realise it was all hot air and credit. Ireland must start again and this time develop home grown high value industry.

Chris_533976

Also it means that there are five countries in the world with better paid bus drivers.

SickCert

Who were the top 5? I might transfer.................

What would you like us to get paid?
Keep in mind too low and the decent lads leave and the trash returns.

DWCommuter

Im not singling out bus drivers. Its the only occupation listed in the article thats relavent to this forum.

For the record, Irish solicitors, architects and accountants are the 10th best paid in the world.

AlekSmart

+ :eek: :eek: :eek:

Aside from three eyerolling smileys, an undercurrent of insults and a sprinkle of things you seem not to understand, have you anything constructive to add?

Moving swiftly ( and constructively,i hope)on......

I'd agree that bus drivers in Ireland are over paid. But everyone in Ireland is overpaid including those in receipt of social welfare payments. They are overpaid because the state cannot afford to pay them that much, regardless of the cost of living. The simple fact is that the irish standard of living is too high for what the country actually contributes to the world (think hard, how many IRISH companies (apart from some good food companies) actually design or make useful stuff for the rest of humanity? A Spar shop on every corner does not an economy make.

I don`t know whether or not murphaph IS economically minded,I readily admit my economic training ended after the Intermediate Cert in 1972,but that post resonates with me.

An average figure of €33K PA may well appear as extravagant to some but I would certainly not agree if one takes into account it includes working some of the most anti-social shifts possible.

When I came into the job it was with the full apprciation that it encompassed these hours but that the shift-premia compensated for the loss of social time.

That principle runs throughout Service Industry employment I believe and across all borders.

Working Lates/Nights/Weekends/Bank Holidays in ANY employment is not a popular pastime and the regularity of it soon sorts out the stayers from those who for whatever reason cannot hack it.

Perhaps the better persons to ask about whether or not €33K constitutes a wildly excesive amount are the Spouses and Children of Busdrivers who in the main are required to adapt to a strange and often strenuous lifestyle conducted at odd hours and at times when "everybody else is off Daddy".

I don`t deny for a moment that our earnings are towards the top of the proffessional driving scale.
In fact I would contend that current trends in the Industry are geared towards placing the Vocational Driver on an even HIGHER level of worth than curently.

All vocational Drivers,commencing with Bus Drivers are now required to study for,complete and possess a Certificate of Proffessional Competency (CPC) in order to retain the ability to drive for a living.

A core element of the CPC is the PROFFESSIONALIZATION of what once was a dead-end job whose main criteria,harking back to the days of the Conductor,was an ability to do sums.

( And before I get a lash,That is NOTHING to do with Economists,good,bad or indifferent )

SO,rather than seeing the proffessional Busdriver agreeing to a reduction of his/her salary (interestingly we are a wages grade occupation......not worthy of a Salary...Yet :rolleyes:)I would expect Busdriver representative groups EU wide to be pressing for at least the maintenance of current wage-rates or a deferred INCREASE based upon the new methodoligies and skill-sets being introduced.

It`s also worth noting that the UBS report is from 2006....(Sigh...do I remember Joxer,do I what !!!!!!) and the Press Release wording is somewhat less specific than the Irish Times interpretation.

eg:

Highest wages in Scandinavia, Switzerland and the US
In the cities of Western Europe and North America, workers in 14 representative professions earn a gross hourly wage averaging USD 18; in the Eastern European and Asian cities examined, the figure was only USD 4 to 5. The highest wages are paid in Copenhagen, Oslo, Zurich, Geneva, New York and London. In a comparison of net wages, the Scandinavian and German cities lose ground due to their high tax rates and social security payments. The shooting star in the international comparison of wages is English-speaking Europe, with Dublin and London new in the top ten.

So we note that whilst Busdrivers ARE mentioned it is in the context of them being used as somewhat of a descriptor for a Sector of service provision rather than as a specific occupation.

Phew.....at least that`s another wage cut staved off for a week or so :P

Thanks all for bearing with me in my attempts to revive the Construction industry........ :cool:

r3nu4l

33k may seem too much but to be honest, I wouldn't work that job for 40k. Nitelink anyone? Sure, some routes are great to work on with very little anti-social behaviour but there are others where I think no amount of money would make me run those routes.

I wouldn't begrudge bus drivers that money simply because of the crap they have to put up with on a daily basis!

/I don't know any bus drivers personally, nor do I have any love for ANY workers in the public sector but there are others who are paid far more and don't deserve their wages imo. Bus drivers earning 33k I can easily live with. They provide a very useful service and for the most part provide it well with little thanks from anybody.

Flat earth wage comparisons are always going to put Ireland in a bad light, you can't just say "X" are the highest paid in the world when compared to "X"'s in London.

The "Irish problem" is simply the fact that inflation was allowed to rise above the Eurozone average, so everything is relative.

Goods and services are that much more expensive so therefore wages of employees have risen to maintain a decent standard of living.

AlekSmart

Bus drivers earning 33k I can easily live with. They provide a very useful service and for the most part provide it well with little thanks from anybody.

Well thank`s for the sentiment anyway

I may be churlish here but it seems to me that a Swiss Bank may not be exactly best placed to offer judgements on the relative worth of a Dublin (or London) Busdriver.

Yep sure it may well take only x minutes work to buy a Big-Mac but there`s a lot of unquantified stuff between the suggestive sell and the swallow.

The figures for me are far more indicative of the LOW esteem in which Busdrivers have traditionally been held,particularly in the British Isles.

It`s not for nothing that former Lord Mayor Of London was forced to introduce a Mayoral supplement of £5 per day to attract applicants for London Bus Driving jobs subsequent to the succesful Private Operators being unable to service their tendered routes due to Driver shortages which were endemic in London up to last year.

This supplement is to my knowledge still being paid,perhaps incorporated into the basic wage now.

It also should be recognised that there are differing wage rates applicable to sections of the job.

For example a senior driver on a London Articulated Bus route will have a substantial premium on top of his/her basic to reflect the greater level of skill required to shift 18 metres/14 tonnes of constantly shifting and variably co-operative human cargo about the place safely.

There are also part-time rates payable to casual and contract drivers although this sector may well be consigned to history by the CPC requirements and somewhat less than glowing accident/incident records for the grade.

spareman

The Economist wrote: »

I was expecting the thread to turn like that, but I didn't expect it in the second post.

Spareman, perhaps social welfare payments are too generous. Similarly perhaps bus drivers are paid a little bit too much.

Is that such a controversial topic for a thread to be discussed without resorting to anecdotes and emotive logic?

Im not resorting to anecdotes and emotive logic, I just asked a genuine question, because going by the information I can find on the citizens info site, Im getting out of bed at ridiculas hours and putting up with all sorts of crap for very little extra money, and am considering giving up my Job to spend more time with my family and some community projects Im involved in.

steve-o

The crooks and incompetents in Leinster house are the highest paid in the world. Give the bus drivers a pay rise

Mrs OBumble

TBH, 33k doesn't sound high to me when you consider the level of responsibility that drivers have, both in terms of safety, but also the customer-service / public-relations aspect.

The latter bit particularly fascinates me: Ireland desperately needs to get people out of their cars and onto public transport. That requires a number of things, including customer-focussed drivers, who I expect to be polite, helpful, knowledgeable, excellent communcators, etc. As well as good drivers.

Now I'm not saying that the current bus-driver workforce meets all my expectations. In fact, I've often wanted to plant a foot in the backside of certain state-owned-operator employees who won't help an elderly person put their bag into the luggage compartment, no matter how old they are. But 'tis how I think things should be.

DWCommuter

JustMary wrote: »

TBH, 33k doesn't sound high to me when you consider the level of responsibility that drivers have, both in terms of safety, but also the customer-service / public-relations aspect.

Bare in mind that it's an "average" of 33K. Some will earn lower. Some will earn higher.

irishguy

33k seems quite allot to be honest. I know allot of college graduates that would think they won the lotto if they got offered a job paying that (not in Dublin btw) even with a few years experience. Not trying to belittle anyone, driving a bus is hardly a highly skilled job. If CIE was a private company I can assure you the drivers wouldn't get paid that and they would still be able to find staff, but the same is said to all public workers. I would hate to be the person trying to sort this out though, as its going to be like to Uk in the 80's.

Salaries in the private sector are a different thing really as they are mostly governed by demand for that skill. Allot easier to lay people off/reduce wages.

r3nu4l

irishguy wrote: »

33k seems quite allot to be honest. I know allot of college graduates that would think they won the lotto if they got offered a job paying that (not in Dublin btw) even with a few years experience.

When I first graduated with my PhD I was on less than 33k and yes, at that time I felt very aggrieved, having spent all those years in Uni getting the highest qualification that can be gotten in any field BUT I knew that I had the chance to advance my salary hugely over the coming years and have done, whereas bus drivers don't generally get that chance or have as many opportunities. They do however have the 'opportunity' every day of their working lives to get verbally abused, spat at, held up, assaulted etc. I wouldn't begrudge them that money for that job. As I said, I wouldn't do it even if I was offered a lot more than that!

irishguy

r3nu4l wrote: »

When I first graduated with my PhD I was on less than 33k and yes, at that time I felt very aggrieved, having spent all those years in Uni getting the highest qualification that can be gotten in any field BUT I knew that I had the chance to advance my salary hugely over the coming years and have done, whereas bus drivers don't generally get that chance or have as many opportunities. They do however have the 'opportunity' every day of their working lives to get verbally abused, spat at, held up, assaulted etc. I wouldn't begrudge them that money for that job. As I said, I wouldn't do it even if I was offered a lot more than that!

Yes I know its probably not the easiest job in the world with the scum you would have to deal with (I wouldn't do it either), but if you advertised for a bus driver offering €25,000 (if the unions allowed it) I am pretty sure you would get a good response. The same can be said of most public sector jobs where office admin type roles in the civil service who pay 35k have a very handy job compared to the private sector who get paid minimum wage and get treated like crap. Its all down to the power of the unions. I have worked my fair share of crappy jobs (I also worked for the civil service for a while) so I am in a good place to compare the wastage in the public sector...

Cleopatra12

I just want to point out (and this is me being pedantic), CIE employees are not public sector workers. The CIE group of 3 companies are semi state who individually employ thier own staff.

I know many say bus driving is not highly skilled, but i personally would not like to be responsilbe for transporting people around the place and i know of people who have quit their driving job cos they could not hack the responsability of other peoples safety being entrusted to them.

AlekSmart

Not trying to belittle anyone, driving a bus is hardly a highly skilled job.

Irishguy`s assurance is indeed noted and I`m sure appreciated by those who may feel belittled.

However as other posters also aver to,most Busdrivers are well used to attempts to belittle,demean and physically assault them so will hardly get too riled up over some words knowledgeably written.

I would take issue with Irishguy`s notion that Busdriving is NOT a highly skilled job.
I dont see it as being a matter of how highly skilled one is but more of the nature and level of varying skills which have to be put to use,often in situations of a totally unplanned nature.

Many graduates in specific disciplines might be of immense stature within THAT particular field yet might not be able to boil an egg in another.
That would not take away from their categorization as a"Highly" skilled graduate but would still see them going hungry at breakfast time.

The more agreeable figure of €25,000 as quoted by Irishguy is far nearer the mark for a driver commencing with the CIE companies.

Irishguy might not agree,but this may not be far off the mark for drivers of high calibre in the private sector either.
There is also a certain realpolitik to be borne in mind throughout the Bus & Coach industry and that is the nature and scale of "unrecorded" payments or other allowances which can be utilized in the private sector,but NEVER feature in CIE employment.

I remember being taken very much aback when working alongside my Private Sector colleagues on high profile events such as the Eurovision and Special Olympics.

Sure,I and my Dublin Bus colleagues were on a better BASIC wage but it was still a system shock to see how much in-the-hand money the "private" lads had on Friday.

There was a general concensus then,as now I believe,that the lower one`s basic rate was for PAYE purposes the better and this was tacitly accepted throughout the industry.

One of the side effects of the likes of Drivers CPC is the manner in which records will need to be kept by employers and made available to various forms of snap-inspection...it will eventually allow for a great deal of X-referencing by the various authorities.

R3nu41 manages to get a somewhat clearer grasp of the thing I believe as the Dublin Bus payscale is a mere 4 years Bottom to Top,with the only promotional opportunities being to the now shrinking Inspector grade.

When I first graduated with my PhD I was on less than 33k and yes, at that time I felt very aggrieved, having spent all those years in Uni getting the highest qualification that can be gotten in any field BUT I knew that I had the chance to advance my salary hugely over the coming years and have done, whereas bus drivers don't generally get that chance or have as many opportunities.

Oddly enough,I have worked with PhD`s who following their graduation and even further study then decided to opt out and go Busdriving,not for the money,but to avail of the incredible opportunities the job offers for study of Human interaction at every level imaginable....and to get paid for it

mikemac

irishguy wrote: »

The same can be said of most public sector jobs where office admin type roles in the civil service who pay 35k have a very handy job compared to the private sector who get paid minimum wage and get treated like crap.

You won't walk into the civil service on 35k.
An executive officer won't earn that and they have to supervise staff.

Afaik a clerical officer starts on 23k.
And you worked in the civil service??

Anyway, if you are an office worker earning minimum wage and treated like crap to use your words, you're a sucker!

di2772

God, i hate people who complain about other peoples salaries.
Go concentrate on your own career instead of whining about others.

SickCert

Would be worse if it was said 33k was for year 1 drivers....................:pac:

crocro

The other relevant section in the report was a comparison of public transport costs. Dublin came
11th for urban bus/tram costs
13th for a 5km Taxi trip
15th for a 200km train journey

There were 73 cities in the comparison.

I always thought that high wages caused high prices rather than the other way around. If you pay an average cop 63K and an average primary school teacher 58K, would you expect them to be thrifty when they go shopping?

The report is here:
http://www.ubs.com/1/e/wealthmanagement/wealth_management_research.html

High wages, high welfare, low tax. Oh, look - we're bankrupt!