I miss the old Feedback.

Karl Hungus

Yes, I know the lolcats were sometimes overkill, and sometimes the arguments went nowhere, and spiraled off into many tangents, like a jellyfishes tendrils. But you know what? Those were good times. When people came along soap-boxing and making ridiculous claims about moderators being on crack and other such nonsense, people would just laugh at it, poke fun at silly accusations.

Now, I'm sure that this reads like I miss posting cat pics. That's not really it, these days, it's a case of lock thread > take it to feedback, and everyone's complaints are granted the same respect, no matter how off the wall. Before, feedback was a forum where people were addressing other people, now it's all so hum drum and serious, and it's more like people are addressing complaints and feedback to a system. A system that doesn't really give a genuine response, but measured, impersonal responses.

I think boards.ie lost something extremely valuable, a large part of what was the boards community. People addressed a complaint towards boards, and boards as a community responded. Sometimes with mocking and derision, but it was a response from the users; those who make boards what it is, and it was a genuine boards response to people who made silly complaints. The way it is now, Feedback seems to have been taken out of the hands of the community, and a rather 'kid gloves', impersonal, PR kind of response is given out to anyone who has an issue.

I believe that boards has been changing a lot as of late, more rapidly and drastically than before, and not really a change for the best either. I get a sense of a greater rift between the regular users and mods, and the admin team, it's as if the shift towards this model of feedback is saying to the community "we don't want your input, we're handling it from here." Even with thanks being removed in Feedback, it seemed another way of saying to the community; butt out.

It just feels like users are less a part of something now, and that kind of saddens me.

I don't know what I expect in writing this. I'm not demanding that Feedback be returned to it's glory days, I don't even know if that could even be possible now, even if the admins actually tried to return it to that. Feedback as it was, was something that developed naturally from the community and the way users voiced their opinions.

I think people didn't really appreciate Feedback for what it was at a time, maybe some saw it as just people taking the piss, or a shambles of a 'system'. But I think Feedback was truly a part of what made boards.ie a community, it was part of that community's voice, and I think at the very least, it deserves some recognition. Boards just hasn't felt the same since, it lost something of itself.

This is Karl Hungus, user of boards for over 8 years, cheeky bastard on Feedback half the time, over and out.



Fooooooooooooooo!

FlutterinBantam

Post-**** depression K... that's how I sees it.;)

The Recliner

Pretty much agree with all you have writen there Karl

I do think it would be easy enough to go back to the old days, there are enough people willing and waiting to pounce at the first sight of a Fight da Powah thread

They just need to know that the the shackles are off and it is a free for all

Xavi6

Spot on Karl. The old Feedback was a real go-to place whereas this version is pretty much pointless in its current form as the majority of threads are either locked right away or shipped off to Help Desk. The powers that be have been real Buzz Killingtons in this particular situation.

Berty

Ah hell you are just getting old.

Soon you will not be able to read the posts without needing to type the acronyms into Wikipedia/Google.

NatKingColeslaw

Out with the Old. In with the New.


IBTL

:pac:

Boston

Don't like the way every other thread is getting locked simply because it's decided that it has no merit.

mike65

+1 to all Karl Hungus said.

Boards.ie is a business now....

Boston

Old feedback probably did reflect badly on boards LTD

BuffyBot

<admin hat off>Rose tinted glasses tbh</admin hat off>

On a bigger adminy note - everything changes. "Old" feedback couldn't be sustainable, and certainly didn't present a particularly attractive image of boards.ie to the outside world. The site has grown massively, and with that the old ways just don't wash anymore.

There are more users, and a lot more voices. We can't have the shouting matches of old simply because there would be way too many people shouting. I enjoyed them as much as anyone at the time, but I realise that it just could not work that way now.

Of course boards.ie has lost something in it's growth, but it's gained an awful lot too - and it's easy enough to forget that when indulging in nostalgia.

Boston

Rosie you say?

Wibbs

The Recliner wrote: »

Pretty much agree with all you have writen there Karl

Ditto. Well put Karl and I agree with you here;

Karl Hungus wrote:

I believe that boards has been changing a lot as of late, more rapidly and drastically than before, and not really a change for the best either. I get a sense of a greater rift between the regular users and mods, and the admin team, it's as if the shift towards this model of feedback is saying to the community "we don't want your input, we're handling it from here." Even with thanks being removed in Feedback, it seemed another way of saying to the community; butt out.

It just feels like users are less a part of something now, and that kind of saddens me.

I do think there's been some disconnect in the areas you suggest with this growth. Maybe it's unavoidable and part and parcel of such growth. I would hate to see the community go "corporate" in structure though* or be infested with the beige of middle management. It may be natural and easier to copy some of the structure of that as things get bigger, but that doesn't mean new rules can't be written that keep the community as vibrant and inclusive and free rolling as the best bits of the past. This is a new medium and Boards is a new player in that medium. Good opportunity to write some new rules methinks. With the users to the fore. Not mods, not admins, users. That's the community.

I think feedback in the past was a bit too OTT, but IMHO anyway this has been a snapback too far in the other direction.


*this is no reference to Boards ability to thrive as a biz BTW. The better it does there the better for the community. I say corporate in the sense of hierarchy and dealing with any possible faults in the system.

GLaDOS

I'd love to thanks your post but....y'know.

dr.bollocko

I don't mind at all if ye want to make feedback a sub forum of the thunderdome. That should bring about the right spirit in the place.

Jack B. Badd

Imo, boards could well support 2 Feedback-style fora, one similar to this where feedback is aimed at and received by the upper-echelons of the boards community, the other a "community feedback" forum relevant to all levels. However, as much fun as the old Feedback was, as BuffyBot stated, it doesn't present well to the outside world. Then there's also the fact that, as boards already has the current Feedback, Helpdesk, AH and tCN, does it need to further filter the constructive feedback from the soap-boxing?

stovelid

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I don't mind at all if ye want to make feedback a sub forum of the thunderdome. That should bring about the right spirit in the place.

The 'dome works on the principle that you sign up for what comes your way.

The slaughter and/or stupid pictures in the old feedback was uninvited.

Can't say I miss the spectacle of people lining up in their dozens to ridicule people, even if a lot of the time it was warranted.

therecklessone

stovelid wrote: »

Can't say I miss the spectacle of people lining up in their dozens to ridicule people, even if a lot of the time it was warranted.

If I could thank you...

dr.bollocko

Boards has become very large. Too large to be perceived as one site anymore. A load of different communities with different rules and different user interactions which result in different gripes and problems. Perhaps the concept of one central feedback forum will just never fit with how big boards has become.

orestes

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61953588&postcount=11

Get outa my head Hungus :mad:

aidan_walsh

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Boards has become very large. Too large to be perceived as one site anymore. A load of different communities with different rules and different user interactions which result in different gripes and problems. Perhaps the concept of one central feedback forum will just never fit with how big boards has become.

This, IMO.

therecklessone

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Boards has become very large. Too large to be perceived as one site anymore. A load of different communities with different rules and different user interactions which result in different gripes and problems. Perhaps the concept of one central feedback forum will just never fit with how big boards has become.

Suggest an alternative then?

dr.bollocko

therecklessone wrote: »

Suggest an alternative then?

Category feedback fora might be workable.
When helpdesk is one poster vs. many mods it is always going to look unfair. I am not saying that it is but it could easily be perceived that way.
With old feedback there were too many callous witch hunts and plenty of posters with some axe to grind or other. That is also unfair.
Feedback forums on a cat level might be able to limit the number of axe grinders and get more specific feedback about each different community on boards. Because it splits the issues down to specific categories there are less threads, less posters and the whole thing might be a bit more focused.
There can be no system that everybody will be happy with. We're all ****ed. Run to the hills.

Lafortezza

BuffyBot wrote: »

"Old" feedback couldn't be sustainable, and certainly didn't present a particularly attractive image of boards.ie to the outside world. The site has grown massively, and with that the old ways just don't wash anymore.

In the older days of feedback (and I guess boards.ie in general), nobody really cared how we looked to the outside world. It was all about keeping the user base community happy.

I guess now since DAFT bought a chunk, the new admin organisation, and actual offices and employees as a part of boards, it's inevitable that the website, owners and admins have to think about how the site looks to outside business interests (advertisers, "Talk to...." forums, and the Irish media).

Old feedback definitely doesn't fit into that image, which I think personally is a shame, but since boards.ie is now a full legit company, things have to be done differently.

Boston

New boards.ie LTD now with ten muppets for every Watty or Hagar.

Dudess

The problem I found with old Feedback was the inability of a few vocal regulars to differentiate between those thread-starters having an unreasonable whinge, and those who were attempting, in a reasonable manner, to voice their concerns over something which, while it may have appeared naive of them, was an issue they felt was worth bringing to the table. To see the latter get ripped apart was not nice.
And it didn't make sense to have a Feedback forum at all if that was going to be the kind of reception in there.

If there was a guarantee of a separation between the two, I'd personally welcome old Feedback back. I don't think that can be guaranteed though.

Earthhorse

The old Feedback may have been unsustainable, the new one is useless. Ironically, as boards begins to make money off the back of the content generated by its users they now find themselves with less of a voice. If the reason behind this new Feedback is perception in the broader world then take Feedback private i.e. create a new forum where users with issues are granted temporary access where they can interact with admins and mods or other users involved. As it stands, the current mechanism by which users can have their case heard is ambiguous at best and the present Feedback forum is nothing more than a scarecrow; designed to give the illusion of protection when there is none.

My name is URL

What's changed? Most threads are ignored, or the OPs concerns are dismissed as a fanciful rant with no real merit.. then an admin will come in and say it's a non-issue and doesn't belong in Feedback.

It's a clusterfcuk still, it just has less people now

I agree with Dr. Bollocko, there should be a Feedback section in each category, and if the Cat Mods deem a topic to be of importance they can choose to escalate it to admins

Boston

Say whatever you want about the old feedback, it was a place where you could gain support if you where able to convince the populous you were right, and when you have that support you could force mods and management alike to change decisions previously set in stone. You cannot do that now. Feedback is totally irrelevant now. I've seen a series of moderators quiet in the last few weeks and there's not a word about it here.

NatKingColeslaw

Boston wrote: »

Say whatever you want about the old feedback, it was a place where you could gain support if you where able to convince the populous you were right, and when you have that support you could force mods and management alike to change decisions previously set in stone. You cannot do that now. Feedback is totally irrelevant now. I've seen a series of moderators quiet in the last few weeks and there's not a word about it here.

There were a few thread about mods leaving but they were deleted. Here and on other forums.

Feedback, indeed. One prefers the new one.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

BuffyBot

In the older days of feedback (and I guess boards.ie in general), nobody really cared how we looked to the outside world

Well, I don't even think anyone thought of it that way - but for the most part the outside world didn't know about boards.ie. We were an island. And a small one. Like Guernsey, but with more sarcasm.

That, however, has changed completely. We're a much bigger island now..and growing exponentially and we're a lot more visible to the world.

IronMan

As a lurker of the highest order, I rarely rise above the parapet. But as usual, I agree with Karl.

Steve

Karl, you have a good point and wish I could thank your post.

I've written many replies to this thread but they had angry words do I refrained from posting them.

Suffice to say that I'd like to see a place where the community can speak it's mind with reasonable argument without fear of reproach.

Jonathan

Boston wrote: »

Say whatever you want about the old feedback, it was a place where you could gain support if you where able to convince the populous you were right, and when you have that support you could force mods and management alike to change decisions previously set in stone. You cannot do that now. Feedback is totally irrelevant now.

This tbh.

The last such thread I remember in Feedback was the Helix thread (The Economist's thread on the repercussions of the ban iirc). After that, thanks was removed and all threads locked/Helpdesk'd after 4-5 posts.

Not very conducive to feedback.

DeVore

Actually VERY conducive to feedback... not very conducive to blood sports.

Sorry but Karl makes the comment that it isnt "for the best"... that rather depends on your definition of "for the best".

I'm sorry if Feedback isnt as "amusing" for you guys, its not meant to be. Its not and never was meant to be a place where the lions and the christians fought. It should be somewhere people can come and drop a suggestion/feedback/comment without being jumped on and that wasnt it.

The comment that its since Daft bought into us... well, it really is a bit Daft. I'm in charge here in the office, I'm not exactly easily told what to do. Daft have never interfered in the community. You CAN thank them for the extra stability, the lack of backup blackout and the extra features Conor and Ross have been pumping out.
They have 0 interest in the way the community is left, thats all simply left to me and the other admins.

There was a good suggestion in this thread, that we have some kind of Boardserati kick-about forum, where we can have a clear and unfettered discussion about Boards and how its run but there would be concerns about what rules would be on that.

But feedback should be a more sedate place then it was and I'm happier that it is. If you have genuine feedback, I'm listening, I read it every day.

If you just want a lol-cats dramatic bitch-fight.... thats not what I consider "best".

DeV.

Time Magazine

DeVore wrote: »

There was a good suggestion in this thread, that we have some kind of Boardserati kick-about forum, where we can have a clear and unfettered discussion about Boards and how its run but there would be concerns about what rules would be on that.

Link, link.

With the utmost respect DeV, I think there are more serious problems that need to be addressed here. I'm sure you're aware how upset some of the moderators are and, without going into details here, that you've had over-rule something that other admin had rejected even on appeal.

Boards' feedback mechanisms have always been fairly shite, and I mean no disrespect when I say that. It was not for want of trying on ye're behalf -- there have to be compromises that upset some people. But at the moment, from where I'm standing, as fair and as good as the current system may seem on paper, Boards' feedback mechanisms have never sucked so much balls. If the mods are upset with them, I have no idea how those even more on the outside are feeling.

Perhaps they're just growing pains. But these concerns are not something that can be passed off easily.

Personally, I would suggest a moderated Feedback forum that's moderated and yes, I know that it's been tried before.

Handsome Bob

You know it's weird. There are times when I see a thread in Helpdesk where I feel I could contribute valuably to the case being put forward. It's frustrating because in the old feedback I would of had the platform to make that case. However on the other hand there are times when I see threads in Helpdesk and I am glad the old Feedback is gone. For example, when Sharpshooter was made a mod in AH she had an awful time with constant threads made about her in Helpdesk. Modding is a tough job, and modding AH is pretty much a case of being thrown into the definitive deep end of modding. So I was delighted that the old lynch style feedback was gone in that case.

Ultimately it really is a catch 22. Then again Feedback can still have a purpose, all you have to do is make your complaint about the forum more so than about a specific mod. :pac:

orestes

The end of old feedback was the end of boards, in so many ways.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote: »

The comment that its since Daft bought into us... well, it really is a bit Daft. I'm in charge here in the office, I'm not exactly easily told what to do. Daft have never interfered in the community. You CAN thank them for the extra stability, the lack of backup blackout and the extra features Conor and Ross have been pumping out.
DeV.

I didn't mean that the DAFT guys influenced the owners/admins in the running of boards. What I meant was that since boards.ie became more of an official commercial enterprise with legal team, offices, shareholders, employees that procedures have had to change. It's not necessarily a bad thing in some ways, it just changes how things are run.

More and more media attention too results in the old type of feedback forum giving a very bad image to boards.ie as a serious website for Ireland.
While I really enjoyed the lolcats and gathering cards and fight the power threads, they looked pretty bad to non-boards people.

Karl Hungus

DeVore wrote: »

If you just want a lol-cats dramatic bitch-fight.... thats not what I consider "best".

You are greatly misrepresenting my point and what I liked about the old Feedback, Dev. I think when I opened my post saying that the lolcats were sometimes overkill, and that arguments went off on tangents, I'd think people would recognize that it was not the bitching and fighting that I miss. To infer that I or others here liked it just because it was "amusing", is either missing the point completely, or just brushing off what's being said. And that's a shame that the admins would ignore the points being put forward.

Lolcats exist numerous other places on boards, so does bitching and fighting, and there's plenty of amusement to be found anywhere on boards, and none of those have been lost. I can't miss something that hasn't gone away. And I can't put it any more clearly, I don't miss old Feedback because of lolcats or because it was amusing. I don't like this "get your lulz elsewhere" fob-off, it's just side-stepping/ignoring the real point, and focusing only on the bad aspects of the forum of old.

No, what I specifically said I missed, was the sense that it was boards as a community that was responding to feedback, that the community; users, mods and admins alike, were in charge of feedback, and it was community responses that were given. That's what I miss, that's what boards has lost, and that's what I believe has created more of a rift between admins and others on boards. I think Boston has summed things up incredibly well here:

Boston wrote: »

Say whatever you want about the old feedback, it was a place where you could gain support if you where able to convince the populous you were right, and when you have that support you could force mods and management alike to change decisions previously set in stone. You cannot do that now. Feedback is totally irrelevant now. I've seen a series of moderators quiet in the last few weeks and there's not a word about it here.

Feedback was a place where you took your problem to the community. It wasn't taking up an issue with a bureaucratic body of admins by way of a tightly controlled system, it was directly petitioning the people. Boston is exactly correct when he says that a user could gain support and overturn decisions with that support. And I think threads like this are a perfect example, Pighead appeals to the community, and is redeemed by the community. It was very much trial by community, everyone had a say, and if someone came along full of hot air and a problem they caused themselves, it was users who told this person to get off the soapbox because we're not listening to your nonsense.

Helpdesk was something I saw as an alternative; you can either take up an issue with boards, and have boards make a judgment, or you could take up an issue with the admins and only the admins can make a judgment. It was something that gave the aggrieved user options with how they could proceed. Now it seems as boards has been locked out of the process, the populous has had it's voice silenced, it's power cut like Samson's mullet.

Yeah, as Dudess points out, there were people who just seemed to like to have a go at a user who started a complaint, and that's certainly something we can do without. But even with the many, many problems, Feedback of old was somewhat of an equalizer, giving Joe-user and mod alike powers comparable to that of wonderboy. That was something extremely special, it was boards governing itself in a sense, and we've lost out on that. We've lost the sense of community actually having power.

I hope now that everything is crystal clear about what this thread is about?

tallaght01

It wasn't really the community, though. It was about 30 regulars who would respond. To the vast majority of boards users, I would imagine, it was just a few punters getting their jollies by slagging off kids.

therecklessone

tallaght01 wrote: »

It wasn't really the community, though. It was about 30 regulars who would respond.

Yep.

At least one of the recent boards crises escalated with help from Feedback.

Wibbs

tallaght01 wrote: »

It wasn't really the community, though. It was about 30 regulars who would respond. To the vast majority of boards users, I would imagine, it was just a few punters getting their jollies by slagging off kids.

True. It needed change, but maybe this isn't it. I also agree with you with regard to the regulars, but the lurkers who are part of the community looked on and took something from that. In the past many times you would be right and it was a lol fest. I think in any feedback forum(or any forum) you're going to get the regulars, but I also think if feedback is a good forum, the lurkers will come away with a better feeling about the place.

dr.bollocko

I think a couple of forums have incorporated feedback systems onto their own fora. A big feedback sticky or similar. Perhaps that would be something some ofthe busier communities could go with.

Boston

DeVore wrote: »

Actually VERY conducive to feedback... not very conducive to blood sports.

Sorry but Karl makes the comment that it isnt "for the best"... that rather depends on your definition of "for the best".

I'm sorry if Feedback isnt as "amusing" for you guys, its not meant to be. Its not and never was meant to be a place where the lions and the christians fought. It should be somewhere people can come and drop a suggestion/feedback/comment without being jumped on and that wasnt it.

The comment that its since Daft bought into us... well, it really is a bit Daft. I'm in charge here in the office, I'm not exactly easily told what to do. Daft have never interfered in the community. You CAN thank them for the extra stability, the lack of backup blackout and the extra features Conor and Ross have been pumping out.
They have 0 interest in the way the community is left, thats all simply left to me and the other admins.

There was a good suggestion in this thread, that we have some kind of Boardserati kick-about forum, where we can have a clear and unfettered discussion about Boards and how its run but there would be concerns about what rules would be on that.

But feedback should be a more sedate place then it was and I'm happier that it is. If you have genuine feedback, I'm listening, I read it every day.

If you just want a lol-cats dramatic bitch-fight.... thats not what I consider "best".

DeV.

Somewhere between the changing of feedback and helpdesk the users choice of going to the community to look for support was removed. Dress it up whatever way you want, that's the bottom line. Now you want this forum to be an actual site feedback forum, that's fine but wheres the problem with having a forum where a bunch of users can get together and say, actually I don't agree with that moderating decision. Someone along the road it was either consciously or otherwise decided that these matters are best aired in private.

One things for sure, you never see another poke forum debacle.

dr.bollocko

Boston wrote: »

Somewhere between the changing of feedback and helpdesk the users choice of going to the community to look for support was removed. Dress it up whatever way you want, that's the bottom line. Now you want this forum to be an actual site feedback forum, that's fine but wheres the problem with having a forum where a bunch of users can get together and say, actually I don't agree with that moderating decision. Someone along the road it was either consciously or otherwise decided that these matters are best aired in private.

One things for sure, you never see another poke forum debacle.

You forgot to mention the boards.ie LTD shtick.

Boston

I don't think you're even a real doctor 0_o

Fysh

Given the number of people who've had arguments about whether they should be allowed to use boards to call Bertie Ahern a liar in the middle of the Mahon Tribunal, or about whether they should be allowed to claim that all Roma Gypsies are thieving scum, or discuss sources for getting films & tv shows from their american cousins, do we really needa place where an aggrieved user can request support from the populace at large?

I always understood the intent of feedback was to provide a venue for considered discussion about the functioning of the site as a whole; the more that appeals to the populace at large are allowed, the greater the chance that "considered discussion" flies out the window as people get sympathisers based on popularity rather than having a point, which is an awful idea. You've only got to look at how out of hand karma-whoring got before the whole karma mechanism was rescinded for proof of this kind of behaviour.

I get the idea - that it should work in a similar way to a class-action lawsuit - but I don't think it's feasible. Given how badly it could have been considered to have worked in the past, I don't see what useful outcome is foreseen for this thread.

AckwelFoley

call me when i can post lolcats.

Dyr

Why not create a feedback forum called "the feedback forum where some dick mod will snigger at you in a matter that would get you you permabanned if you dared to do it in one of their forums"

Could be a winner.:)

Dudess

Yeah, despite the indignant objections to accusations of "mod conspiracy" (there isn't one - really there isn't) the jeering and ganging up that occurred in old Feedback didn't exactly help dispel the notion - but to be fair, it wasn't only mods who were guilty of it.